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View Full Version : Tetenal to be closed - what next?



Bob Salomon
29-Jan-2019, 11:35
http://www.worldofphoto.com/meldung2.php?NID=30131857

This hits home for me as we were the distributor in the US for several decades. Although we did not supply their chemistry except in bulk for major labs.

But 172 years is a good run!

Doremus Scudder
29-Jan-2019, 11:50
Truly sad news, Bob.

I was under the impression that Tetenal was making chemicals for Kodak under license. If that is the case, then what's going to happen to Kodak's product line? Hopefully someone will take up the slack (or I'm wrong here).

Best,

Doremus

koraks
29-Jan-2019, 16:59
This was to be expected after earlier news some 6 weeks ago if I recall.

Tetenal has been producing for several brands I understand. I have no idea what will happen to their product lines; I expect we'll see some delivery issues popping up here and there in the following period. That'll make clear how involved in the photochemistry business they have actually been as a supplier. There could be a business opportunity for a nascent firm here, or for a brand that wants to do a bit of vertical integration in the supply chain such as Adox did with former Agfa assets.

Greg
29-Jan-2019, 17:16
Not familiar at all with Tetenal developers but was just planning on ordering some Tetenal Ultrafin Film Developer and some Tetenal Neofin Blue Film Developer from Freestyle to try them out.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/131102-Tetenal-Ultrafin-Film-Developer-1-Liter
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/131100-Tetenal-Neofin-Blue-Film-Developer-5-bottles-of-30ml-concentrate-each

Does anyone have any experience with using either of these developers with Ilford FP-4 plus? I used Neofin? Blue back in the 1970s with excellent results... all be it with Super-XX (I date myself). Unfortunately my notes abbreviate the developer used with only the designation of "Blue".

thanks in advance

Duolab123
29-Jan-2019, 22:47
This is huge. So bad. I pray somehow it can be saved. This is where all our black and white chemistry comes from.

Duolab123
29-Jan-2019, 23:19
I just panic bought 5 packages of XTOL and 6 1 gal Kodak rapid fix w hardener. The XTOL that Tetenal makes is cleaner than the US made material.

Oren Grad
29-Jan-2019, 23:19
It's probably worth quoting Adox's post from the Photrio thread on this:

ADOX is independant from Tetenal and will continue to offer the full range of b/w chemicals. We are also capable of manufacturing or refilling color chemistry in suitable kit sizes. This is a relatively small market and with Tetenal being our long standing partner for more than 25 years we have never done so. But if need is, we can start this and we can dsitribute all over Europe as you know. Let´s wait a little longer. The chemical business was just a part of TT´s activities and all we know at this point is that Tetenal as a whole will not continue.

Tetenal thread at Photrio (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/tetenal.162786/page-6#post-2149292)

No doubt Kodak Alaris and Harman/Ilford have contingency plans as well.

Michael E
30-Jan-2019, 09:03
I am sad to hear this, too. My first steps in the darkroom world were taken with TETENAL products, and they have accompanied me ever since. I am by no means an industry insider, but this reminds me of CALBE Fotochemie, which emerged as the photo chemistry part of the East German ORWO Kombinat and continued to produce the old lineup of b/w products. They are still in business (https://www.calbe-chemie.de/en/company/), but have shifted and diversified their production: "Due to deminishing of traditional analog photography we decided in 2002 to use the existing modern mixing facilities and botteling lines for manufacturing of alternative products. Long-term investments in 2003 and 2004 have been carried out according to this point of view. (...) Main product groups now are special cleaners, chemicals for pond & aquaria, industrial intermediates, pool products, ecological fertillizers and plant protection chemicals as well as chemicals for building and construction." They still make photo and x-ray chemicals and might be on the list of companies to step in and fill the demand. Also, this might be the fate/chance for the TETENAL facilities. Let's just hope that the TETENAL expertise and and experience don't get lost.

jp
30-Jan-2019, 09:07
With companies like Photographer's Formulary, Sprint, and DIY options, I don't expect any disruption for B&W options. Have not needed any Kodak chemicals for several years.

ghostcount
30-Jan-2019, 20:45
https://petapixel.com/2019/01/30/photo-chemistry-giant-tetenal-closing-shop-after-172-years-report/

Merged --Oren

Delfi_r
31-Jan-2019, 02:13
Tetenal – Wie es weiter geht – NEW TETENAL (http://new-tetenal.de/tetenal-wie-es-weiter-geht/)

Short and in english: there will be a New Tetenal, focused on production of chemicals

Doremus Scudder
1-Feb-2019, 12:11
There's a link to the English translation at the bottom of the page linked to above if anyone is interested.

Here it is: http://new-tetenal.de/tetenal-how-things-will-continue/

Randy Moe
1-Feb-2019, 15:25
How much does Tentenal sell to Badge firms, meaning repackagers.

Are they essential for Color Movie film, Hollywood?

Important to me, do they make Rodinal?

interneg
1-Feb-2019, 16:18
How much does Tentenal sell to Badge firms, meaning repackagers.

Are they essential for Color Movie film, Hollywood?

Important to me, do they make Rodinal?

They manufacture(d) a great deal of Ilford & Kodak's BW chemistry & some colour. The old Tetenal was vast - I think Mirko from Adox said they were about 2x the employees of Harman/ Ilford - and the chemical section (which is the bit re-establishing itself) was only about 40 people (approx 10% of the old company). And it was making money, unlike much of the the rest of the company.

Tetenal do make a Rodinal equivalent, but Adox make the genuine article.

neil poulsen
3-Feb-2019, 13:33
Tetenal – Wie es weiter geht – NEW TETENAL (http://new-tetenal.de/tetenal-wie-es-weiter-geht/)

Short and in english: there will be a New Tetenal, focused on production of chemicals

Could still result in a possible temporary lapse of available product. I think I'll stock up.

I use Dektol and D76. If it came to that, I believe that it's possible to make both of these developers from scratch. I found one specifically for D76 in Ansel Adams book, Negative. I also found Dektol substitutes online.

Hopefully though, it won't come to that. (Ever?)

Randy Moe
3-Feb-2019, 13:51
I have been using a case of ADOX Rodinol, but just bought 2.5 L of "Rollei Compard R09 One Shot Agfa Rodinal Formula Film Developer - 500 ml' as it was 25% cheaper. I can't read anything on the bottle even with a magnifier. Tiny print, I had to look it up at Freestyle where I always buy one or the other. They say, "Compard R09 One Shot Film Developer is the exact same formulation as Agfa Rodinal".

ADOX Rodinol is out of stock until March.

Very confusing!


They manufacture(d) a great deal of Ilford & Kodak's BW chemistry & some colour. The old Tetenal was vast - I think Mirko from Adox said they were about 2x the employees of Harman/ Ilford - and the chemical section (which is the bit re-establishing itself) was only about 40 people (approx 10% of the old company). And it was making money, unlike much of the the rest of the company.

Tetenal do make a Rodinal equivalent, but Adox make the genuine article.

Peter De Smidt
3-Feb-2019, 16:16
Tim Rudman just posted this on Facebook.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zfhlq01nzwc7c01/tetenal.jpg?raw=1

Randy Moe
3-Feb-2019, 16:40
Das ist gut

Keith Fleming
3-Feb-2019, 19:20
I have (in storage) a couple of bottles of Rodinal-formula developers. The labels differed, but the plastic containers were identical. My guess is that when Agfa went belly-up, the factory making Rodinal continued production, but sold its products to other companies for commercial sale. There also were some legal issues regarding anyone using the name Rodinal, which apparently have been resolved since Adox is now marketing Rodinal. In any event, I am convinced that RO9 is identical to Rodinal, and manufactured by the same factory.

Keith

Oren Grad
3-Feb-2019, 20:57
I've renamed the thread to be a more accurate representation of the current situation - in view of developments reported elsewhere and linked here, it's premature to say that the part of Tetenal that we care about most here, the photochemical manufacturing division, is "gone".

Two23
3-Feb-2019, 21:33
Tim Rudman just posted this on Facebook.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zfhlq01nzwc7c01/tetenal.jpg?raw=1


LOL, another story that came from Buzzfeed?


Kent in SD

Peter De Smidt
3-Feb-2019, 22:49
Kent, do you know who Tim Rudman is?

Drew Wiley
4-Feb-2019, 13:27
Almost none of the chemicals in question are under patent any longer, or really even a trade secret either. It's just a matter of market demand. Even complicated HC-110 can be generically made if necessary. People went into panic about that not long ago, and rumors went flying, when it was really just certain redundant bottle sizes being discontinued.

Bob Salomon
4-Feb-2019, 13:42
Almost none of the chemicals in question are under patent any longer, or really even a trade secret either. It's just a matter of market demand. Even complicated HC-110 can be generically made if necessary. People went into panic about that not long ago, and rumors went flying, when it was really just certain redundant bottle sizes being discontinued.

Here is another!

An investigation by Inside Imaging reveals that Kodak Alaris Chairman Mark Elliott recently wrote in a financial report, ‘We are in advanced discussions with a bidder to sell the PPF (Paper, Photochemicals and Film) business and all of its assets.’ http://ow.ly/m7Eb30nzINQ

Drew Wiley
4-Feb-2019, 13:44
What is Kodak going to be left with, dog whistles?

Mark Sampson
4-Feb-2019, 13:56
Assuming anyone buys it, they will get the rights to the EK name, and anything still made will be from Rochester. Alaris wants out; apparently someone else thinks there's still profit to be made.
A side note- Fuji swallowed Xerox last year, it would be *interesting* if Fuji wound up owning most of the industry in my home town.

Bob Salomon
4-Feb-2019, 14:28
Assuming anyone buys it, they will get the rights to the EK name, and anything still made will be from Rochester. Alaris wants out; apparently someone else thinks there's still profit to be made.
A side note- Fuji swallowed Xerox last year, it would be *interesting* if Fuji wound up owning most of the industry in my home town.
I sold Rollei studio strobes to the Kodak Research Studio in the early 70s. The manager of the studio was an interesting guy name Earl.
After the strobes were set up and tested we went to his office. The walls had large gray fabric covering and the only decoration on the walls were green boxes of Fuji film. Being curious I asked him why the Fuji boxes?
He said they were to remind everyone to look behind them before Fuji caught up.

We all laughed, but he was right!

interneg
4-Feb-2019, 14:34
Assuming anyone buys it, they will get the rights to the EK name, and anything still made will be from Rochester. Alaris wants out; apparently someone else thinks there's still profit to be made.
A side note- Fuji swallowed Xerox last year, it would be *interesting* if Fuji wound up owning most of the industry in my home town.

No, it's to do with the Kodak pension fund in the UK needing to divest profitable assets so that it can qualify for the government run pension protection fund. Alaris was paying into the fund (because Alaris is profitable), but at nowhere near the rate needed to make up the shortfall.

Pere Casals
4-Feb-2019, 14:41
Well, Kodak Alaris is not the Eastman Kodak Company.

To me, and regarding film products, Alaris is only a nasty commercial intermediary, not adding value but destroying value.

The problem was that the bankrupted Eastman Kodak Company faced a $2.8 billion claim by the UK Kodak Pension Plan (KPP), to solve that KPP was awared "Droit du seigneur" in the E. Kodak film commercialization and other. My guess is that there was a race to see who earned the more from the film retail price, so the thing ending in a "Tragedy of the commons".

Randy Moe
4-Feb-2019, 14:59
Yes, he was right, but Douglas MacArthur was instrumental in resetting Japan to their new course.

Here is a quote from wikipedia, which seems most appropriate,

"...in an address to Congress on 19 April 1951, MacArthur declared:

The Japanese people since the war have undergone the greatest reformation recorded in modern history. With a commendable will, eagerness to learn, and marked capacity to understand, they have from the ashes left in war's wake erected in Japan an edifice dedicated to the supremacy of individual liberty and personal dignity, and in the ensuing process there has been created a truly representative government committed to the advance of political morality, freedom of economic enterprise, and social justice.[291]

MacArthur handed over power to the Japanese government in 1949, but remained in Japan until relieved by President Harry S. Truman on 11 April 1951. The San Francisco Peace Treaty, signed on 8 September 1951, marked the end of the Allied occupation, and when it went into effect on 28 April 1952, Japan was once again an independent state.[292] The Japanese subsequently gave him the nickname Gaijin Shogun ("foreign military ruler") but not until around the time of his death in 1964.[293]..."

It is well known we gave Japan many tools and machines to restart their industry. We also jump started their camera business, "Tower Type 3 - 1949 Japanese Leica copy..."


I sold Rollei studio strobes to the Kodak Research Studio in the early 70s. The manager of the studio was an interesting guy name Earl.
After the strobes were set up and tested we went to his office. The walls had large gray fabric covering and the only decoration on the walls were green boxes of Fuji film. Being curious I asked him why the Fuji boxes?
He said they were to remind everyone to look behind them before Fuji caught up.

We all laughed, but he was right!

Bob Salomon
4-Feb-2019, 15:13
Yes, he was right, but Douglas MacArthur was instrumental in resetting Japan to their new course.

Here is a quote from wikipedia, which seems most appropriate,

"...in an address to Congress on 19 April 1951, MacArthur declared:

The Japanese people since the war have undergone the greatest reformation recorded in modern history. With a commendable will, eagerness to learn, and marked capacity to understand, they have from the ashes left in war's wake erected in Japan an edifice dedicated to the supremacy of individual liberty and personal dignity, and in the ensuing process there has been created a truly representative government committed to the advance of political morality, freedom of economic enterprise, and social justice.[291]

MacArthur handed over power to the Japanese government in 1949, but remained in Japan until relieved by President Harry S. Truman on 11 April 1951. The San Francisco Peace Treaty, signed on 8 September 1951, marked the end of the Allied occupation, and when it went into effect on 28 April 1952, Japan was once again an independent state.[292] The Japanese subsequently gave him the nickname Gaijin Shogun ("foreign military ruler") but not until around the time of his death in 1964.[293]..."

It is well known we gave Japan many tools and machines to restart their industry. We also jump started their camera business, "Tower Type 3 - 1949 Japanese Leica copy..."

Canon was the Leica copy, Nikon was the Contax copy. Nikon supposedly was a name made from Nippon and Zeiss Ikon.

But Japan wasn’t the only rebirth. Look at what the Marshall Plan did in Germany after the war!

Randy Moe
4-Feb-2019, 15:22
and look at them now!


Canon was the Leica copy, Nikon was the Contax copy. Nikon supposedly was a name made from Nippon and Zeiss Ikon.

But Japan wasn’t the only rebirth. Look at what the Marshall Plan did in Germany after the war!

Sal Santamaura
4-Feb-2019, 17:55
Assuming anyone buys it, they will get the rights to the EK name, and anything still made will be from Rochester...Mark, unless you have and are revealing insider information, that's not necessarily correct. The agreement between Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris may or may not restrict Kodak Alaris from sourcing film elsewhere and then marketing it as "Kodak." I suspect the Kodak UK Pension Plan was smart enough to ensure an 'escape clause' was included so it would have something to sell in the event Bldg. 38 gets scrapped at some point.

Keith Fleming
4-Feb-2019, 18:53
Mark clarified the relationship between Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris, but other comments make believe it would be useful to state it again: Eastman Kodak still makes the film, and Kodak Alaris does the marketing.

Keith

Mark Sampson
4-Feb-2019, 22:52
Just educated guesses on my part. I have no inside information whatever.

Peter De Smidt
4-Feb-2019, 22:54
All I take from all of this is that we don't know what will happen. That's better than knowing that they're done.

Randy Moe
5-Feb-2019, 05:35
True

Duolab123
5-Feb-2019, 21:57
I went a little nuts buying XTOL. I think I have enough for 65 to 70 liters of stock solution. I suppose I can act as a sort of strategic reserve in case there's a short disruption due to the Tetenal delay. I have a case of Kodak Rapid fix w hardener too.:rolleyes:

MAubrey
19-Feb-2019, 12:17
Hey guys, don't give up hope yet.

https://petapixel.com/2019/02/19/tetenal-film-chemistry-to-live-on-management-buyout-accepted/

"After word of Tetenal’s financial difficulties emerged in late 2018, the photochemistry giant announced in January 2019 that it would be closing shop after 172 years. But an employee-led management buyout offer has now been accepted, allowing the business to live on."

Dugan
19-Feb-2019, 12:36
Great news!

Louis Pacilla
19-Feb-2019, 12:43
Great news!

Agreed!

Bob Salomon
19-Feb-2019, 14:32
Great news!

And starting on April Fool’s day!

I just hope they have enough money to operate this. I keep thinking of the demise of Rollei!