Wista 45N

[ManWithManyHobbies]

New here,

I'm completely new to large format cameras. I still have all of my old Pentax 6x7 and 67 gear and lenses so I do shoot film now and then. Anyway I finally found a 4x5 and a few accessories locally. I ended up with a 45N in excellent condition and a Fujifilm SWD 90mm f/5.6 lens. I have an old Gitzo G1225 tripod and a older RSS ball head that I purchased years ago. I assume the Gitzo will work fine for now? My questions for now are;

1. What should I looking into purchasing to mount the 45N onto the Gitzo?

2. What do I look for film carrier wise for this particular camera? Dos and don'ts of purchasing?

-JW:

[Paul Ron]

ive got the same setup. the camera is a bit heavy but a beautiful machine. as you get to use it n read tye many how to posts here, you will discover its many features n abilities. dont be affraid to ask these old geezers questions. they may sound a bit grumpy, but they do have big hearts... n heads.

it goes on the tripod like any camera does, 1/4-20 screw mounted on the tripod head. im not sure what you are asking about.

that lens is fantastic. i love it for lanscapes. the coating is excelent. when i first got it, i tested her out. iv shot into the sun with no flare n even had the sun in some pictures that came out great. its very sharp.

film holders are regular 4x5. ive got plenty spares. if you need, pm me for details, i can sell a bunch of them for a very reasonable price.

where are you located?

.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Here's a cell phone pic of my tripod ...

[jmontague]

I have used both a ball head and a pan/tilt head with my 4x5 and I prefer the pan/tilt. Being able to adjust one plane at a time is far easier - particularly for large format. My $0.02.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ManWithManyHobbies]

I have never purchased, nor looked at, or used a pan/tilt head. Do you mean something like a Manfrotto 410 Junior geared tilt head?

[ManWithManyHobbies]

On another note, the lens I purchased won't go into the hole. The diameter of the rear lens housing is slightly larger than the opening. What's up with that? It's mounted on a Wista board but the 'diameter' is the issue.

[rdeloe]

On another note, the lens I purchased won't go into the hole. The diameter of the rear lens housing is slightly larger than the opening. What's up with that? It's mounted on a Wista board but the 'diameter' is the issue.

This exact problem came up recently in another thread. In that case, it turned out that someone had re-done the bellows and used a replacement part for the front that had a too small opening. The hole in the front bellows frame should be almost exactly the same size as the hole in the in the front standard.

The other solution offered (in the event that my initial idea isn't the problem) was to unclip the bellows from the rear mount, unscrew the rear element, insert the lens, reach in from behind and attach the rear lens element, and then re-attach the bellows to the rear clips. Personally, I wouldn't do this because of the risk of damage (to the exposed lens elements, to the shutter, and to the threads). Others seem to do this as a matter of course. I'd get a lens that fits.

Regarding heads, I use a Manfrotto 410. I don't love it because the gears get worn out and it's awkward to operate. But it's very sturdy and not very expensive. If you buy a used one, get the seller to confirm that the gears are in perfect shape. Or if you get a bargain and are handy, you can repair it per some instructions I put up. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149880-Repairing-a-Manfrotto-410-Bogen-3275-tripod-head

[Ed Vatza]

Hi there.

Looks like a Really Right Stuff ball head on ypur Gitzo. That's the exact setup I am using right now. I just went to the RRS website and found a "generic" plate for a large format camera. If you aren't sure which one to go with give them a call. I am using these plates on my Speed Garphic as well my Wista 45DX.

Regarding the lens. I went thru the same thing with that very same same lens and had exactly the same question. That rear element is huge. It would not fit my Speed Graphic. This is the solution that was offered up to me. You remove the rear element and mount the front lens, shutter and lens board. Then you remove the camera back, retract the bellows, reach in and screw in the rear lens element. It could be done but was a pain. And it rubbed on the inside of the bellows anyway. I was on the verge of selling the 90 5.6 when I got the 45DX. Surprise. The lens fits just fine in my Wista 45DX. Go figure. Anyway, you might try the solution that was offered to me and see if it works for you.

Ed

[B.S.Kumar]

This exact problem came up recently in another thread. In that case, it turned out that someone had re-done the bellows and used a replacement part for the front that had a too small opening. The hole in the front bellows frame should be almost exactly the same size as the hole in the in the front standard.[/url]

The front of the Wista camera bellows is attached to a two-part metal frame. The inner part came in two sizes - one with a 78mm diameter raised lip, and the other with an 84mm hole without the lip. Please see this thread for more details:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137950-Inner-Plate-for-Wista-Cameras-to-allow-Recessed-Boards-to-fit

Kumar

[ManWithManyHobbies]

I just had a friend tell me he had the same problem with his Graflex. Taking the lens apart wasn't a big deal as long as you're careful. I haven't figured out how to remove the rear ground glass yet so I can put it all together. The lens board fits fine.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

New here,

I'm completely new to large format cameras. I still have all of my old Pentax 6x7 and 67 gear and lenses so I do shoot film now and then. Anyway I finally found a 4x5 and a few accessories locally. I ended up with a 45N in excellent condition and a Fujifilm SWD 90mm f/5.6 lens. I have an old Gitzo G1225 tripod and a older RSS ball head that I purchased years ago. I assume the Gitzo will work fine for now? My questions for now are;

1. What should I looking into purchasing to mount the 45N onto the Gitzo?

2. What do I look for film carrier wise for this particular camera? Dos and don'ts of purchasing?

-JW:

Hello,

this is really a very good and sturdy setup.

The Wista 45N is a great camera that is also lighter than her sisters. It is also less complicated than the concurrence. Same knobs everywhere, less technical mechanics that could break, reducing weight in reducing gears etc

A little bémol (bb): wideangle capabilities are reduced. Especially tilt and shift with 90mm lenses. And the ordinary recessed lensboards (ecubuyonline.com) from China don't fit.

I solved the problem by buying 46mm-filterthread-lenses: Fujinon W 5.6/105 (15mm more focal length, but small image circle, no tilt, no shift), Fujinon W 5.6/125 (enough image circle, enough to tilt and shift as I need it), Fujinon A 8/180 (great image circle, standard lens) and a 49mm Apo-Ronar 9/300 (huge image circle).

Advantage: the 46mm-filterthread lenses fit into the closed camera ...

The Gitzo is sturdy and heavy enough not to be blown away by the wind.

It seems you need an Arca Swiss plate / rail to mount the camera on the tripod / ballhead. http://www.hejnarphotostore.com

Concerning film carriers: I found that a Toyo 69/45 slip-in rollfilm back could be dangerous for my ground glass. So I use it with the Graflok clamps. The Horseman 6x9 back is good, too.

Then I use Linhof 4x5 film holders, the elder ones, that are also capable to take glass plates. They are bigger than the Riteway-system, and the tend to lose their darkslide occasionally. So just try to get holders with the barring device.

The Wista 45N has no Fresnel lens. I bought a cheap A5 Fresnel loupe on Ebay. I use a separated semi-convex lens of an elder projection Leitz Hektor to observe sharpness on the groundglass. Light-weight and small.

Ciao

[B.S.Kumar]

I believe the rear barrel of the Fujinon SWD 90mm f/5.6 lens is 80mm. If so, the lens cannot be inserted into the panel with the current inner plate on your camera, which has a 78mm diameter hole. Spending 3,600 yen to replace it with the inner plate I sell is cheap insurance to avoid the risk of having a cell slip from your hand, or hitting a metal part inside the camera. All of us try to be careful with our equipment, but accidents can and do happen...

Kumar

[jmontague]

I am using a slightly older version of this pan tilt head:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/553888-REG

I really like it for large format. I have not used a geared head, but would opt for the Manfrotto 405, based on comments and reviews.


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[rdeloe]

I use the Fujinon 125mm f/5.6 on my Wista 45VX and it folds up into the camera nicely if you reverse it in the frame. I leave it in on the camera with caps on for storage. My Fujinon 210/5.6 is too big to stay on the camera reversed.

[rdeloe]

Daniel, are you using your Apo-Ronar 9/300 with a tophat (extension board) or an extension bed/rail?


Hello,
I solved the problem by buying 46mm-filterthread-lenses: Fujinon W 5.6/105 (15mm more focal length, but small image circle, no tilt, no shift), Fujinon W 5.6/125 (enough image circle, enough to tilt and shift as I need it), Fujinon A 8/180 (great image circle, standard lens) and a 49mm Apo-Ronar 9/300 (huge image circle).
Ciao

[ManWithManyHobbies]

I'm not getting notifications of new replies to this thread. Not sure why. I have that option enabled (instant via email) so bare with me. I haven't been able to find any 'How to" type videos for the Wista 45N (note the 45N), nor a free operations manual (if it actually exist).

Questions;

1. I watched a Wista Youtube video of a different Wista model where the entire back slid off the camera along with the ground glass but can't figure out my particular model, that being the 45N. I know how to rotate it 90 degrees. Does anyone know for a fact how to remove it?

2. Is an operations manual available for a 45N? NOT a brochure but an actual operations manual?

Thanks,
-JW:

[rdeloe]

JW, someone else may chime in with a more authoritative response, but as far as I understand it, the 45N is very similar to the 45VX. I think one difference is that where the 45VX has a knob to control the tilt on the front standard, on the 45N there's a knob to release the lock, and then you just move it by hand pressure.

Here's the manual for the 45VX: http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/wista_45_sp_vx.pdf

On my VX, you rotate the back so it's 45 degrees (doesn't matter which direction). That exposes four silver tabs. You just pull them outwards to release the whole back and pop it off. Note that this is different from just popping off the film holder and ground glass part by pressing on the silver levers that allow the back to open up and receive the film holder. You use those when you're replacing the ground glass and 4x5 film holder with one of the various roll film adapters.

You can also pop off the part that covers the ground glass and provides the built in viewing hood. Open it up, and then press gently up. One of the hinge pins is short and the other is spring mounted. You can lift it right off if it's in the way.

186827

186828

[Paul Ron]

2 tabs on top of the camera back keep the gg back on. press both those clips and the back will tilt n come off the bottom hooks.

[Havoc]

For rotating the back, you just take a firm grip on it (around the shade for the ground glass is fine) and turn. No latches or anything.

To take off the back you press on the ribbed part of both the latches that are next to the flash shoe at the same, like Paul wrote. Keep your hands on the back because it just falls backwards!

If you pull on the half-circular tab at the right side in your photo the shade for the ground glass swings open. If you swing it open then at the left side is the bar it hinges on. Push the thicker part down and the shade pops off.

On your photo, in the left down corner, below the knob to fix the front, there is a small tab. Push that down and you can swing the complete back.

[rdeloe]

Some cameras described as 45N seem to have the four tabs arrangement like my VX. Others seem to have the two tabs by the flash shoe that Paul describes. Wista didn't helpfully label the darn things as "VX" or "N". I believe another difference between the N and the VX is that the N doesn't have front swing. I haven't seen any pictures of "N" cameras that have the front swing release lever you can see on the VX models.

I wonder if the N series went through different upgrades as it got closer to the eventual VX. I've even seen some that have the two tabs to release the back assembly that Paul describes (which seems to be an "N" design), no lever for front swing, but an extra set of large knobs on the rear that are like the ones used on the SP to do the micro-swing! Some of these are described as 45D. Perhaps Bob will see this thread and explain!

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Sorry, still can't figure it out. The two sliders labeled 'A' move but nothing happens. I know how to open the doors labeled 'C' and 'D'. I know how to rotate the back. I just can't figure out how to remove the entire back. The back seems 'loose' and is on two hinges. One on top and the other on the bottom that swing out slightly. I will try and make a video later on today. <g>

-JW:

[Havoc]

The sliders A are fix graflok accessories.

Your camera does not have the 2 latches on top so you need to follow the instructions with turning the back to 45 degrees

[ManWithManyHobbies]

The sliders A are fix graflok accessories.

Your camera does not have the 2 latches on top so you need to follow the instructions with turning the back to 45 degrees

Thanks very much! I didn't understand the previous posting that rdeloe made. The silver tabs simply slide outwards to release the back. :o

[rdeloe]

rdeloe can be confusing. You wouldn't be the first person to point that out. ;)

What I was trying to say is that there seem to be two different designs for removing the back: the two buttons or tabs on top next to the flash mount, and the fours silver tabs in the corners. Your camera has the four silver tabs, just like my 45VX. That's good because I think most of the operation manual I suggested (link above) will apply to your camera.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Thanks again. I have more questions and I'll get back to the film holder question later. I made a short video to explain. I don't think the back should be doing this and don't see a cure for keeping it firmly in place? Those sliders 'A" in my previous posting don't seem to have anything to do with this? I thought their function might be to keep the back in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW0yhp7F5so&feature=youtu.be

-JW:

[rdeloe]

As Havoc mentioned, the sliders A in your above picture are only used with Graflok accessories. For example, you can shoot roll film with these cameras by removing the 4x5 film holder and inserting a Wista roll film adapter. You can ignore these completely unless you're planning to use roll film.

I watched your video. Looks good to me. When you pull back on the "ears", the back opens up so that you can slide a film holder in. When it's in position, it should click firmly. The film holder should feel snug, with no play. And when you lift up the dark slide, the film holder should stay put. One thing to note is that you seem to have a version that supports the double cable release system. That silver thing you're pulling on at the 15 second mark is where you can plug in the second cable release. It's explained in the manual (page 16 of the PDF file I linked you to above). It seems to be a system for allowing some degree of automatic aperture control. You can probably ignore this too (I would).

By the way, you can also ignore the lever you labelled B on that picture you posted (the one that shows A for the Graflok sliders). I actually posted a thread recently to ask what the heck that was for because it's not mentioned in the manual. It really seems to be nothing more than a way to rotate the holder counterclockwise -- which is kind of ridiculous because it's easier to just grab onto it and twist. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time to the engineers who designed the thing. ;)

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Regarding heads, I use a Manfrotto 410. I don't love it because the gears get worn out and it's awkward to operate.

Again, thanks for the suggestion and the link.

-JW:

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Hi there.

Looks like a Really Right Stuff ball head on ypur Gitzo. That's the exact setup I am using right now. I just went to the RRS website and found a "generic" plate for a large format camera. If you aren't sure which one to go with give them a call. I am using these plates on my Speed Garphic as well my Wista 45DX.

Regarding the lens. I went thru the same thing with that very same same lens and had exactly the same question. That rear element is huge. It would not fit my Speed Graphic. This is the solution that was offered up to me. You remove the rear element and mount the front lens, shutter and lens board. Then you remove the camera back, retract the bellows, reach in and screw in the rear lens element. It could be done but was a pain. And it rubbed on the inside of the bellows anyway. I was on the verge of selling the 90 5.6 when I got the 45DX. Surprise. The lens fits just fine in my Wista 45DX. Go figure. Anyway, you might try the solution that was offered to me and see if it works for you.

Ed

Thanks, worked for me.

-JW:

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Hi there.

I just went to the RRS website and found a "generic" plate for a large format camera ...

Thanks Ed.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Like I mentioned before, 4x5 is all new to me. I have shot film before. A lot of 35mm back in the early 70's, including developing. Back in the day, most of my medium format was with the Pentax 67's for Astrophotography and a little landscape last few years. I've never used a 4x5 before or loaded film in a 4x5 holder (AKA = noob). Naturally I will look for videos on Youtube and do some reading. I understand all of the concepts but not the physical operations yet. I wouldn't know a good film holder from a poor one. The few that I currently have look rough to me? I haven't a clue how to check their functionality, if anything is missing, or if they'r acceptable or not and the reason for one of my original questions.

[rdeloe]

It's hard to say if your holders are OK, but from the picture they look rather ratty. Do you have any sheets of film you can use to practice loading and to check if there are obvious defects? You can always sacrifice a piece of good film, but ideally if you have some exposed sheets lying around you can load and unload in daylight to see how it works, and then practice doing it with your eyes closed, etc.

There's tons to learn, that's for sure. If you search around the forum, you'll find lots of threads posted by people starting out who were looking for tips. For specific questions, my preferred search style is actually to hit the forum from outside. Try a Google search like this (without quotation marks): "site:largeformatphotography.info 4x5 advice new" The "site" part of the search string tells Google to only search inside the forum. (Apologies if you knew this already...)

And don't forget the site home page (not the forum) is a goldmine of basic info on large format. That's where I'd start if I were you. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Rob

[ManWithManyHobbies]

... film holders are regular 4x5. ive got plenty spares. if you need, pm me for details, i can sell a bunch of them for a very reasonable price.

where are you located?

Arizona ... I have a few but they look pretty rough to a noob.

-JW:

[Paul Ron]

I see you dont have the 2 latches at the top by the cold shoe like mine. I guess teh rotaing back trick is what you have to try to get the back off? I dont understand Wista, seems they don't label the camera models. I do have a beautiful bright Wista fresnell but no lens swings. I can swing the rail bed though and have the micro back swings. I have no idea what camera I have either.

check if the dark slides go in n out easily? Make sure they are clean n teh hinge tape is not rotted. You can test them for light tight when you start shooting. Ive found I did alot of testing before I got everything sorted out. First you have to make all the mistakes everyone has one time or another like pull the dark slide up while the lens is wide open in focus mode or have the cable release in your shot... yeah stupid little stuff n here I am 45 years later still making the same stupid mistakes. Its just to remind us to be more careful next time, n next time, n next time.....

Yeah PM me? Ive got plenty spare holders.

[rdeloe]

Paul, it's going to take someone familiar with the whole line to sort this out... but I I think you have a 45D. In the same way that the 45N seems to be the precursor to the 45VX, I think the 45D is the precursor to the 45SP. It's confusing as can be because they didn't just label the darned things. Anyway, they all seem to be good solid cameras.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Daniel, are you using your Apo-Ronar 9/300 with a tophat (extension board) or an extension bed/rail?

https://www.ebay.ch/itm/Extension-Lens-Board-For-Linhof-Wista-Ebony-Tachihara-4x5-Large-Format-Camera-CN/271186737287?hash=item3f23fd3887:g:pqcAAOSw5cNYdgQj:rk:1:pf:0

I use this item. It has three parts: the lens board itself, the extension (55mm) and the part with the Copal-1 hole (25mm). It is very sturdy, has a good quality, I can recommend it.

There is no extension board for the Wista 45N. The bellows is not interchangeble.

When backpacking the middle part with the 55mm-extension stays at home. The 25mm-part with the Copal-1 hole fits directly into the lensboard. This is enough to do landscape photography and separate far away trees or details that are about a few meter away.

But it is not enough to do macros. When doing macros I have to use the middle extension with its 55mm / 2 inches.

I don't do macros with the 300mm-Ronar, anyway, because there is not much place in our botanical garden and the DOF is too small. Just imagine: bellows fully extended, a tophat on the front, then the fairly great Ronar 300mm, with aperture of 32-64 to get a little bit DOF, and exposure times of a few minutes to compensate Schwarzschild (Fomapan 100) ... There is a ventilation in the greenhouse wth its orchids ... Heraclit: "panta rhei" ...

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Thanks again. I have more questions and I'll get back to the film holder question later. I made a short video to explain. I don't think the back should be doing this and don't see a cure for keeping it firmly in place? Those sliders 'A" in my previous posting don't seem to have anything to do with this? I thought their function might be to keep the back in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW0yhp7F5so&feature=youtu.be

-JW:

Hello,

as far as I see in your video your wonderful Wista 45N behaves absolutely correct. As rdloe mentioned, you pull the groundglass away from the camera and let the filmholder slide in.

[Havoc]

Like I mentioned before, 4x5 is all new to me. I have shot film before. A lot of 35mm back in the early 70's, including developing. Back in the day, most of my medium format was with the Pentax 67's for Astrophotography and a little landscape last few years. I've never used a 4x5 before or loaded film in a 4x5 holder (AKA = noob). Naturally I will look for videos on Youtube and do some reading. I understand all of the concepts but not the physical operations yet. I wouldn't know a good film holder from a poor one. The few that I currently have look rough to me? I haven't a clue how to check their functionality, if anything is missing, or if they'r acceptable or not and the reason for one of my original questions.

They look well used but that doesn't mean they are faulty. Slide out the dark slides and look if they are OK (not split, rough edge etc). Then look at the opening and try to check if light comes through. Then open the little flap and check the tape that makes the hinge. While you are at it, clean it out.

If you never loaded film, then a Youtube video can be very handy. It is easier to watch than to write it down. But you need some film sheets to practice. So I suggest you order/buy a small pack of cheap film to learn the basics. Foma 100 will do. Then go in the absolute dark and take out a number of sheets, at least 2. Start by turning the film the right way up (notch at richt upper corner) and then learn to slide it in the holder. Practice with your eyes closed. Then go back into the pitch dark and load at least a complete chassis. Do this several times and try to get a routine in it: where you put the film, the box, the empty holders, the full holders.

Don't know how you are going to develop but if you have a tank, just follow the same steps with that scrap film.

Then go out and shoot with real film.

[B.S.Kumar]

This and the following posts are meant to clear the confusion about the different models of Wista 4x5 metal field cameras:

1. Wista 45N: Basic model. The bellows is fixed to the back, though the front is removable. Manual rise via side-mounted locking knob. Front tilt and shift. Rear swing and tilt. Back is removed by rotating it to 45° and sliding out the four corner clips. Usually found in brown leatherette, but I've sold all black versions also.

[B.S.Kumar]

2. Wista 45D: Removable bellows. Geared front rise, manual front tilt and shift. Rear swing and tilt. Additional "micro-swing" via knobs on either side of the body. Back is removed by depressing two locks at the top on either side of the accessory shoe. Again, usually found in brown leatherette, but later versions were all-black.

[B.S.Kumar]

3. Wista 45RF: Removable bellows. Geared front rise, manual front tilt, swing and shift. Rear swing and tilt. Rangefinder for 135, 150 and 180mm lenses. Back is removed by rotating it to 45° and sliding out the four corner clips. Black only.

[B.S.Kumar]

4. Wista 45SP: Removable bellows. Geared front rise, manual front tilt, swing and shift. Rear swing and tilt. Additional "micro-swing" via knobs on either side of the body. Back is removed by depressing two locks at the top on either side of the accessory shoe. Black only.

[B.S.Kumar]

5. Wista 45VX: Removable bellows. Geared front rise, manual front tilt, swing and shift. Rear swing and tilt. Back is removed by rotating it to 45° and sliding out the four corner clips. Black only.

[Paul Ron]

Thanks Kumar, that certainly does clear things up quite a bit.

Now if we can somehow get a nice manual for the different models instead of that poor Chinese interpretation in one hundred dialects that makes absolutely no sense in English, that would help a great deal.

[B.S.Kumar]

The manual for the SP/VX explains almost everything. The RF manual goes into detail about the RF functions. The N has only a specification sheet.
https://www.butkus.org/chinon/wista/wista_45.htm

Kumar

[Havoc]

This should be made a sticky! So I have a black 45D.

[rdeloe]

Kumar, this is a terrific resource. Thanks.

I ended up with a 45VX just by chance: good price at a "local" camera store. That's "local" as in 4100 km away, but at least still in the same country! I'd recommend a VX to anyone who is looking for a Wista 45 metal camera. I appreciate the fuller range of movements, ability to change out bellows for bag or extension (or just to replace a damaged one), possibility of extension beds, and the slightly reduced weight compared to the RF and the SP.

[Paul Ron]

I want the wood wista. I had a chance at one a couple years ago at a ridiculous low price but passed it up thinking it was another metal wista... still kicking myself in the ass for that.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Then I use Linhof 4x5 film holders, the elder ones, that are also capable to take glass plates. They are bigger than the Riteway-system, and the tend to lose their darkslide occasionally. So just try to get holders with the barring device.


Keep in mind that I've never used a film holder. Since I'm trying to learn, do you have a link or picture so I can distinguish or understand what a barring device is AND what an elder one looks like? BTW, basically, what are glass plates for?

Thanks,
-JW:

[rdeloe]

Good link here on film loading: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/loading.html

You won't want to be using glass plates! That may come, but if you're starting out, film will a big enough challenge!

The basic 4x5 film holders are all pretty similar. Fidelity, Lisco, Toyo are some common names. I think they all have a small swivelling metal "L" (upside down L) that you turn to lock the holder in place.

If you do a Google image search you'll see what I mean.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

rdeloe answered already ...

You could buy some photographic paper , eg. Ilford Multigrade PE 10x15, cut it down and load it in a 4x5 film holder. You can do this in a really dark room with a red or yellow light. This isn't expensive, but you learn a lot about film holders, and you learn the basic photographic process. You develop the negatives yourself (three bowls, with developper, stop bath and fixing bath). You get instant results. https://www.flickr.com/groups/1011045@N21/pool/

You can experiment with multi-exposures, pre-flashing, filters, developper dilutions ... All this, if scrupulously documented, will be a worthful ressource.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Daniel,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to lookup the procedure and give it a try.

-JW:

[Paul Ron]

harmon had a direct positive paper in 4x5. nice stuff but very slow iso.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/harman-direct-positive-paper-sheets?___store=ilford_brochure&___from_store=ilford_brochure

[ManWithManyHobbies]

rdeloe answered already ...

You could buy some photographic paper , eg. Ilford Multigrade PE 10x15, cut it down and load it in a 4x5 film holder.

Couldn't find the PE. What does PE mean anyway. :confused:

-JW:

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Couldn't find the PE. What does PE mean anyway. :confused:

-JW:

Hi, here in Europe PE means Polyethylene. The english term is "resin coated" or "RC", I think.

It is the normal photographic paper that develops in 120 seconds, stopps in 30 seconds and fixes in another 60 seconds. After this you bath it in floating water for another 120 seconds, Then you dry it with a Fön (hot air stream) ...

You will get a paper negative, given that you exposed the paper in the film holder with ISO 5. You sandwich the paper negative with a new paper. You expose it, and then you develop this new paper, too, now as a positive.

Just google after "paper negative", eg. https://www.filmshooterscollective.com/analog-film-photography-blog/paper-negatives-james-jasek-2-9 or http://www.theonlinedarkroom.com/2013/06/getting-to-grips-with-paper-negatives.html

I think that understanding the basic photographic process is essential to work with a greater analogue camera that uses sheet film.

Why don't you start with the "Camera" and the "Negative" by Ansel Adams? They're quite affordable, now, second hand.

[ManWithManyHobbies]

Keep in mind that I've never shot 4x5 before, only medium format. Just curious, if I wanted drop off my 4x5 film (that are in the film holders) locally to have them developed the negatives, what is the normal procedure?

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Keep in mind that I've never shot 4x5 before, only medium format. Just curious, if I wanted drop off my 4x5 film (that are in the film holders) locally to have them developed the negatives, what is the normal procedure?



Hello,

you bring the film holder to the lab. They know what to do.

Concerning paper negatives, here is some orientation.

First you need some materials.


tripod
camera
lens / shutter
cable release
film holder
light meter
photographic paper, e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/79193-REG/Ilford_1769818_Multigrade_IV_RC_DLX.html
red light, e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/15766-REG/Delta_35110_Brightlab_Universal_Red_Junior.html
white light
paper developer, e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/170625-REG/Ilford_1918555_Multigrade_Developer_500ml.html
stopping bath, e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/169348-REG/Ilford_1893870_Ilfostop_Stop_Bath_500ml.html
fixing bath, e.g. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/253199-REG/Ilford_1984262_Rapid_Fixer_Liquid_1_Liter.html
3 glass bottles, brown, 1l
1 funnel to get the liquids back into the bottles
1 dozend clothespins
4 tupperwares, min. 4x5 inches large
1 glass plate, min 4x5 inches large
scissor
ruler
pencil
paper
some cardboard



Now you load the film holders.

Turn on the red light.



You pull the dark slide out.
You push the paper into the slots.
You push the darkslide in.



Now you have to expose the paper in the film holders.


At location open the shutter to compose your picture and focus (under a dark cloth?).
Determine your exposure at ISO 5, don't forget to calculate the exposure factor for the bellows extension (if your subject is greater than 1:10 on your ground glass), don't forget to calculate the Schwarzschild factor (if your exposure is longer than 1 second)
Close the shutter.
Put the holder in your camera.
Pull out the dark slide of your holder.
Expose your paper in the film holder, through the lens, with a cable release.
Put the dark slide back into the holder.
Pull the closed holder out of the camera.


Now you develop your paper negative.

Turn the red light on.


You pull the dark slide out.
You pull the paper out of the slots.
You push the darkslide in.
Put the paper into the developer, 60-120 seconds, agitate slowly.
Put the paper into the stopping bath, 30 seconds, agitate slowly.
Put the paper into the fixing bath, 60-120 seconds, agitate slowly.
Puth the paper into the forth tupperware with some water.
Once you're ready you put the developed als fixed paper negativs under floating water and wash the paper negatives, 120 seconds, constant agitation.
Then you dry the paper negatives.



Then comes the sandwich copying.

Turn the red light on.


Put the dried paper negative on a sheet of empty paper, surface to surface.
Put the glass plate as a weight on it.
Expose the sandwich to white light, step by step, in intervalls of 2 seconds.
Develop the exposure trial (a test strip, the white paper) like the paper negative above.
Determine the correct exposure time: white shold be black, black should be white, there should be adequate shades of grey in between, as you like it. Ths is the standard print time.
Now repeat the sandwich procedure with the standard print time.
Develop your paper positive.
Enjoy your paper positve.



Now some intellectual games.


Imagine your paper negative is not made of paper but of transparent plastic: now you work with a sheet of negative film, e.g. Ilford HP5+. You can repeat the whole procedure with negative film. Of course you will work in complete darkness, because black and white film is panchromatic today.
You can pre-flash your negative: put some paper under your glass plate, prepare a test strip, determine the pre flash time as exposure that darkens the paper at least, typically 0.5 seconds. This will improve textured shadows.
You can try film developers like Rodinal 1+50. You negatives will show more grey than black and white.
When taking photographs of landscapes you can try out yellow and yellow green filters.
What about composing pictures with muliple exposures, e.g. rocaille vignettes with portraits
You can try to scan your paper negatives. Perhaps this is not photography any more but data processing. Not to recommend.


I hope I can help.

Of course the others will have good ideas, too.

Kindly

Daniel

[ManWithManyHobbies]

... you bring the film holder to the lab. They know what to do.


I didn't know if that was the procedure or not. I haven't even opened a box of 4x5 yet so I wasn't sure if some sort of packing material was included inside for taking your exposed film to be developed somewhere.

Down the road I plan on exploring paper negatives. For now, I want to develop my B&W 4x5 film myself, probably using a SP-445, and either scan or photograph the negative. I have scanned medium format before with success. Second on my list will be experimenting with x-ray film, then onto direct positive paper prints etc.

Thanks for the outline,
-JW: