So I'm looking at film prices....

[Laminarman]

Still waiting on my Chamonix. Now, keep in mind I haven't shopped for LF film in many, many years, but one thing just jumped out at me. The prices for Kodak film are a bit outrageous??? Since I haven't been looking, have they been that much higher than Ilford for past many years or have they only recently gone nuts with pricing? I was going to pick up some Ektachrome for my Leica but Lord above, about $13 a roll? I don't consider that a favor bringing it back for us. I've always supported llford anyways and this is all the more reason to.

[Tin Can]

I said the same thing a few years ago and swore off KODAK, on this forum.

Bad idea, I recanted, and now treasure both KODAK and Ilford!

I have also bought special cuts from both makers.

Kieth Canham can order special ULF KODAK.

[Paul Ron]

it is sticker shock after not buying 4x5 for so many years. THere are a couple alternatives though.

Arista (rebranded fomapan) is only $67/50 sheets 4x5 as opposed to TMAX at $127/50 4x5.

The compromise is slightly more grain at a lower price. Ive had very good results with fomapan n arista but I hate to say, im going back to TMAX after using the cheaper stuff for nearly 3 years now. I like the control I get with tmax. Ive been using it since it hit the streets in 120 roll format years ago. Im just going to keep my films the same accross formats, just makes life easier.

OH berger pancro is another nice film but again, back to TMAX for me. I did way too much experimenting instead of getting down to business.

[Laminarman]

Paul, since this is relearning for me and somewhat new and I will have a LOT of rust to get rid of, the first box I'm shooting will be Arista. Might as well make my mistakes on a less expensive film. I imagine most of my issues will be focus and camera movement related, not to mention just botched things like leaving the shutter open. The film I'm settling into and getting to know will be Delta 100 in Rodinal and see where that takes me. So many cameras, so little time...

[Alan9940]

Yes, the price of Kodak LF film has hit the stratosphere in recent years; guess that's to be expected given the issues with Kodak. Ilford has raised their prices a bit, but nothing crazy IMO. I use quite a bit of Foma 100 in 8x10 and buy it from fotoimpex in Germany. Good idea to use Arista film for learning. Have fun and post some images!

[Two23]

If you think about it, film is the cheapest part of photography. Travel costs are much more. That said, I mostly shoot FP4 and Hp5 because I like it.


Kent in SD

[m00dawg]

Of note, it kinda blew my mind Ektar 100 in 4x5 was MORE than Fuji Provia in 4x5 when I last looked. The prices move around so that may not be the case but kinda made me go "what!?". I wish there were more color options, costs aside as well as higher speed films but *shrug*.

But yes sheets cost. BW isn't so bad. I do think Kodak is more pricey but I love TMAX and buying it in 50 sheet boxes somehow makes it hurt less. For 400 speed, I normally do HP5 but I have been testing out Pancro 400. I love their boxes ;P - the film itself has been a little tough to nail down. It's not bad at all - it's very good - has lots of tone and renders textures very well, but not sure I like the look with my process.

Fomapan/Arista I would recommend as well. Their packaging kinda sucks - next time I buy a box of Foma I think I'm going to transfer the sheets to another a proper 3-box as they provide the film in a single box and bag. Otherwise I've had some nice results with Foma 200 and plan on trying 100 and 400 soonish.

Also the Rollei films aren't bad if you don't mind a super thin base. I've only done the IR 400 film in sheets so far (I really wanna try RPX25) but it has very pleasing grain to me as a normal film - and you have the option to use it in "IR mode" with a filter. Check to make sure your bellows are IR safe - Chamonix bellows are not apparently (I suspect Intrepid's aren't either but that's just given some of the results I've had) but you can replace them or just cover them with a dark cloth.

Also don't forget about ADOX! Not many options for US distribution yet and I'm not sure about the costs but their films sure look interesting to me.

[faberryman]

Film costs what it costs. Sure I wish it was cheaper, but I could say that about anything I buy. No sense wringing your hands about it. It is out of your control anyway. Just be happy it is still available.

[Pere Casals]

Yes, but we have choices...

If for 120 format TMX and Delta 100 have the same price I may get anyone, but if with same emulsion in LF sheets one has twice the price of the other, then I may think that a manufacturer hates me ! or I may think the sheet price is fair anyway!

Hence, we have a choice ....



It is out of your control anyway.

Consumers have a certain degree of control, depending on how we react to manufacturer's marketing policy we are conditioning manufacturer's behaviour.

A marketing officer would think twice what he does if he is to destroy market share and sells. But if he sees that at 2x price he only sells a 10% less... what would you do ?

[Laminarman]

Great info dawg. Faberryman I don't fret the costs too much for a few reasons: I'm blessed to be able to afford what I want, and nobody forced me to do this. That being said, I don't see value in learning on something that costs twice as much. I have shot the Arista 100 in 120 and while it has a nice look, it seems more contrasty and less sharp than I'd like. I'm going to shoot it in 4x5 (400 ISO). That speed will minimize one thing I'll screw up which is shutter speed and wind, it's always windy where I go (or so it seems) and except for rare instances I don't like leaves blowing and blurring in the wind. I'm going stir crazy meanwhile here, the Chamonix was shipped a week ago and days are dragging on like a glacier...

[otto.f]

it is sticker shock after not buying 4x5 for so many years. THere are a couple alternatives though.

Arista (rebranded fomapan) is only $67/50 sheets 4x5 as opposed to TMAX at $127/50 4x5.

The compromise is slightly more grain at a lower price.

A reasonable alternative between these two is Bergger Pancro400 indeed, which is not grainy at 4x5 in PMK and should be about $94 for 50 sheets of gray...

[Larry Gebhardt]

I like TMax 400 and am willing to pay the price for the speed and look. However when I don't need the speed I use FP4+. The nice thing is both films look very similar when developed to the same contrast, and have similar grain. I wish we had an even faster black and white sheet film like TMax 3200 or Delta 3200 for those times the wind won't die down.

[Drew Wiley]

TMax films need to be exposed carefully with respect to correct shadow placement. But once you've mastered them, they're highly dependable for a wide variety of lighting situations, with TMY400 being more versatile in large format than TMX100. And due to their quality control and reliability, these films are actually a real contender against bargain films, which sometimes tempt you to expose a second sheet to hedge you bets against quality control issues. In other words, one pricey sheet might not be any more expensive than needing two cheaper sheets to bag the same scene. As others have mentioned, a really good general-purpose film is FP4. It doesn't have quite the scale of TMax and only comes in nominal 100 speed, but it's a hard film to go wrong with. The price of color sheet film has basically gone berserk, especially in 8x10; and you have to add processing. I don't know what I'm going to do once the hoard of it in my freezer runs out; but that will take awhile. Maybe by then I'll finally be old and feeble enough to be using the 8x10 a lot less.

[Alan9940]

Maybe by then I'll finally be old and feeble enough to be using the 8x10 a lot less.

Nah...just do what I did. Git ya an Intrepid 8x10 and keep up the insanity! :D

[uphereinmytree]

I just noticed that the price of arista 8x10 has been lowered at BH photo and others

[Tin Can]

Who makes it now?

Who made 2007 11X14 Arista 100? Getting ready to shoot some.


I just noticed that the price of arista 8x10 has been lowered at BH photo and others

[m00dawg]

I like TMax 400 and am willing to pay the price for the speed and look. However when I don't need the speed I use FP4+. The nice thing is both films look very similar when developed to the same contrast, and have similar grain. I wish we had an even faster black and white sheet film like TMax 3200 or Delta 3200 for those times the wind won't die down.

I would appear that TMZ (P3200) is coming out in 120, or at least they are working on it. Was mentioned in the last Sunny 16 episode (along with E100 in 120 and maybe 4x5). Brings hope to seeing P3200 in sheets since, to my knowledge, it has never been available in 120. So it's possible we might see it in sheets! Very curious how it behaves in 120. I really enjoy it in 35mm.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know at what point Arista changed its sourcing. At one point, Arista 100 was exactly FP4 Plus. No difference at all, although I can't recall if it was labeled 100 or 125. After that, Foma became the source - very different product. ... Moonmdawg, TMZ is actually an ASA 1000 film by apples to apples Kodak specifications. Read the fine print in the Tech Sheet. Anything higher than that, and you're just lopping off shadow values. Rating TMY400 at 800 works better for me, though I don't like losing even one zone of shadow content unless the scene contrast is moderate, which it often is when I'm out walking in the rain with a Nikon tucked under my parka. Delta 3200 has a longer toe; but I rate it at 800 in pyro too for realistic expectations.

[Jim Noel]

I have bought no Kodak products in this century, and very little in the 1990's. I prefer the Ilford products for many reasons: dependable speed and grain, adaptability to various lighting situations, availability ( i buy every spring), they work beautifully in PCat, rarely a pinhole even when I am careless aout solution temperatures. Currently I only use about 25 sheets of 8x10 per month, but I use 100+ sheets of X-ray film during the same period.My subject matter just plain looks much better with ortho films.

[Peter Gomena]

Kodak now is priced beyond my wallet's ability to keep up. I use Ilford 4x5 and 5x7 films exclusively. I shoot very little 4x5 color, so I can stretch a box of Portra quite a ways. I do like the Portra films, both 160 and 400. At more than $4/sheet, I am very selective about putting a sheet in the camera.

[Tim V]

I'd love to see some examples you've shot with Pancro 400. Do you rate it at 200? I've often wondered if it's worth it against HP5+. It's similarly priced.


A reasonable alternative between these two is Bergger Pancro400 indeed, which is not grainy at 4x5 in PMK and should be about $94 for 50 sheets of gray...

[jnantz]

Hi OP.

If you are shooting colour film and you don't want to deal with expensive color prices you can always shoot 3 sheets of black and white and RGB filter accordingly and scan them and layer them into moderne trichromes. It is probably less expensive. ALSO film prices are what they are, sure they are kind of expensive but they take all the legwork and guesswork out of the equation so you can just enjoy yourself and expose. If you have the interest you can also shoot paper negatives or get yourself some dry plate holders and shoot some J.Lane Dry Plates, they are worth every penny spent ( and the modern dry plate holder kickstarter starts soon ).

Have Fun!

[paulbarden]

I'd love to see some examples you've shot with Pancro 400. Do you rate it at 200? I've often wondered if it's worth it against HP5+. It's similarly priced.

I like Pancro 400 a lot, and find it has more “character” than HP5. Pancro 400 offers exquisite subtle middle and upper gray values when processed in BER49 (same as Atomal49) and superb highlight separation. In fact, BER49 compares favorable with Pyro in overall character. Avoid processing this film in Rodinal: it ruins the subtler values.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/883/42027098225_31da866034_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4828/45969399632_534e0585e6_c.jpg

[Wayne]

Who makes it now?

Who made 2007 11X14 Arista 100? Getting ready to shoot some.

Although I never used the 11x14, Arista 125 in 8x10 was still FP4 for batches expiring in 2005, and I think for a couple years after. I don't know exactly when it changed. But if yours says ISO 100 it must be something else.

[Willie]

Is this version of the Bergger film similar to earlier versions. Start longer development and it goes just so far and then basically sits there? Not very good for expansion development.

[m00dawg]

I'd love to see some examples you've shot with Pancro 400. Do you rate it at 200? I've often wondered if it's worth it against HP5+. It's similarly priced.

I find I get better results when rating it at 200 but I still get good results at 400 - the negatives just seem a bit thin compared to a sheet of TMX. I develop it in XTOL but suspect I might get better results using Bergger's developers. I like to standardize though and XTOL is super economical (doubly so when using replenishment and lets me be a bit fast and loose about how much chemical I pour into the tank). I've also tried to develop it more than their starting speeds. Still not at the negative density I'm used to seeing with other films but it does produce some lovely tones. I'm not much of a fan of it in the smaller formats (very grainy), but it does seem quite nice in the larger ones!

I inadvertently started a long discussion about film speed and development time because of the different results I get with Pancro 400 over other films. If you fancy a read, you can read up on it here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?150074-quot-True-film-speed-quot-vs-just-developing-the-film-more).

EDIT: Oh forgot to mention, the 4x5 box of that Pancro 400 comes in is, by far, the best box I've seen (and it smells nice!). That's not the reason to buy the film but nonetheless, the box is sturdy, is a 3 box, puts 25 negatives in their own inner cardboard and plastic bag each.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Ilford HP5 and FP4.

[Drew Wiley]

jnantz - Making matching tricolor separations on sheet film is trickier than you might think, and you'll probably spend hundreds of bucks just on the learning curve, if you don't give up first. I guarantee it's going to much more expensive than buying color film, and a LOT more work! But it's one way to get more accurate color, provided nothing moves between shots. TMax 100 is the best film for this kind of usage. You need to be able to get precisely overlapping curves for all three separation filters. Most films won't do that.

[jnantz]

jnantz - Making matching tricolor separations on sheet film is trickier than you might think, and you'll probably spend hundreds of bucks just on the learning curve, if you don't give up first. I guarantee it's going to much more expensive than buying color film, and a LOT more work! But it's one way to get more accurate color, provided nothing moves between shots. TMax 100 is the best film for this kind of usage. You need to be able to get precisely overlapping curves for all three separation filters. Most films won't do that.

Hello Drew Wiley
I've been doing it for years and it hasn't given me any trouble yet. Im not quite sure why it is so tricky; and it never cost me hundreds of dollar on the steep learning curve. I invested about 15 minutes of reading a website and about 10 minutes watching a EEEW-Tube video.
The hardest part of the whole process is remembering which film is R, which film is G and which film is B; and if you do it manually, pre-stacking them so they don't bleed.
Perhaps I should have published this disclaimer ---->> Your Mileage May Vary <<----

>> added later <<

OP
As I mentioned it is a piece of cake, there is even an auto align layers action so that makes it even easier! If you are interested, here is a quick video that shows how easy it is to do.
--- >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S28OUlavAvg

WARNING: It is a lot of fun and might end up a little addictive

[Laminarman]

Paul that is beautiful.

[Tin Can]

Fantastic and done in 2011 with very quick clear steps.

I bet you have more for us!

Thank you!


Hello Drew Wiley
I've been doing it for years and it hasn't given me any trouble yet. Im not quite sure why it is so tricky; and it never cost me hundreds of dollar on the steep learning curve. I invested about 15 minutes of reading a website and about 10 minutes watching a EEEW-Tube video.
The hardest part of the whole process is remembering which film is R, which film is G and which film is B; and if you do it manually, pre-stacking them so they don't bleed.
Perhaps I should have published this disclaimer ---->> Your Mileage May Vary <<----

>> added later <<

OP
As I mentioned it is a piece of cake, there is even an auto align layers action so that makes it even easier! If you are interested, here is a quick video that shows how easy it is to do.
--- >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S28OUlavAvg

WARNING: It is a lot of fun and might end up a little addictive

[Drew Wiley]

Yes, I'm aware of all the tricolor fast food options; but I remain VERY skeptical of the quality of most results. Different people have different standards or expectations of hue reproduction. Web standards are about two miles below a frog's eye view from the bottom of the well as far as I'm concerned.

[Tin Can]

I am skeptical of you Drew, as you never show us anything. You write a lot of psycho babble. Jnantz has shared his process.

To scoff an actual demo is very poor taste. I call that sharpshooting without a weapon.

Now write another rant...




Yes, I'm aware of all the tricolor fast food options; but I remain VERY skeptical of the quality of most results. Different people have different standards or expectations of hue reproduction. Web standards are about two miles below a frog's eye view from the bottom of the well as far as I'm concerned.

[Drew Wiley]

I've seen entire books done that way, Randy, and talked fact to face with those who did them... seen in person whole sets of PS curve adjustments protocols and snap registrations from people who did this as a living. People are welcome to have fun with cameras in any way they wish, and might indeed land some interesting creative results. That's not what I'm talking about. I know how to make matched high-quality color separations. Even a serious web search will verify that tight color control via this path is quite an involved undertaking. And even those who bend every trick in the book offered by PS would find life a lot easier if they started out with matched exposures and development to begin with. So if I offend the Captain Kangaroo Coloring Book mentality sometimes, sorry for that. What on earth do you expect me to show over the web for heavens sake? It's the worst common denominator of hue communication ever invented.

[jnantz]

I am skeptical of you Drew, as you never show us anything. You write a lot of psycho babble. Jnantz has shared his process.

To scoff an actual demo is very poor taste. I call that sharpshooting without a weapon.

Now write another rant...

Thanks ! But old habits die hard, Drew Wiley has been monologing about his technical wizardry and photographic prowess for a long long time. Be careful what you wish for ( writing anther rant )

LOL!



I've seen entire books done that way, Randy, and talked fact to face with those who did them... seen in person whole sets of PS curve adjustments protocols and snap registrations from people who did this as a living. People are welcome to have fun with cameras in any way they wish, and might indeed land some interesting creative results. That's not what I'm talking about. I know how to make matched high-quality color separations. Even a serious web search will verify that tight color control via this path is quite an involved undertaking. And even those who bend every trick in the book offered by PS would find life a lot easier if they started out with matched exposures and development to begin with. So if I offend the Captain Kangaroo Coloring Book mentality sometimes, sorry for that. What on earth do you expect me to show over the web for heavens sake? It's the worst common denominator of hue communication ever invented.

YAWN, thanks for the soporiphic !

[Tin Can]

Yes, I have 'read' 'wiley rabbit' for years, but since he 'retired' he has increased the nonsense.

He needs a hobby...

[Drew Wiley]

A deluxe box of Crayolas has just about as many hues as the web. Not very many. That was deliberate to optimize web speed. Meanwhile, I'm getting a bit tired with arguing with people who don't have the faintest real understanding of the subject and just want to be obstinate. There aren't a lot of serious color printmakers on this forum, but there are indeed a few who can recognize and appreciate a bit of validated learning curve instead of the usual superficial web hearsay ordinarily characteristic of twenty-somethings.

[Tin Can]

http://www.jennyscrayoncollection.com/2017/10/crayola-152-count-ultimate-crayon.html?m=1

[jnantz]

A deluxe box of Crayolas has just about as many hues as the web. Not very many. That was deliberate to optimize web speed. Meanwhile, I'm getting a bit tired with arguing with people who don't have the faintest real understanding of the subject and just want to be obstinate. There aren't a lot of serious color printmakers on this forum, but there are indeed a few who can recognize and appreciate a bit of validated learning curve instead of the usual superficial web hearsay ordinarily characteristic of twenty-somethings.


YESS! that's me, superficial knowledge, no clue, no understanding of anything :)

Jack


PS OP Don't let cranky perfectionists scare you away, its a lot of fun to make Modern Trichromes ( especially if you like having fun ) !

[Nodda Duma]

I can totally understand now why no one dared attempt trichromes before the advanced computer sub-grain/pixel alignment techniques were perfected!

[Tin Can]

Are you making a joke?

Hard to tell


I can totally understand now why no one dared attempt trichromes before the advanced computer sub-grain/pixel alignment techniques were perfected!

[Nodda Duma]

Are you making a joke?

Hard to tell

I’ll add that I was browsing through the photographs of Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky when I posted that. :)

[Tin Can]

I see... and I am familiar with Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky. From here. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/prok/


I’ll add that I was browsing through the photographs of Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky when I posted that. :)

[Nodda Duma]

Yes, the one and the same. Of course, his trichromes were taken / presented long before digitization.

[Tin Can]

That is obvious, more here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_color_feature_films


Yes, the one and the same. Of course, his trichromes were taken / presented long before digitization.

[Laminarman]

YESS! that's me, superficial knowledge, no clue, no understanding of anything :)

Jack


PS OP Don't let cranky perfectionists scare you away, its a lot of fun to make Modern Trichromes ( especially if you like having fun ) !

Oh I've had a few Drew Wiley moments and I'm good. Thank you and I'll look into that trichrome as time goes on!

[Drew Wiley]

Trichromes were routine before color film was ever invented, and then continued parallel in the form of film color separations right up until scanning largely took over. You can find entire old textbooks on the subject, substantial websites containing some of the old literature and techniques too. Technicolor was a moving image version of it. The local camera store even has a beat up old Devin tricolor camera sitting on their conversation piece shelf. A few people even refurbish these or make their own new tricolor cameras. It can be done all kinds of ways today, including hybrid. But like everything else, it just depends on your standards and preferred methodology. I do it all-film. And yes I was cranky. I had returned from a hike and happened to pop my head into the visitor center to peek at its fossil collection and found myself head on with a set of big inkjet prints of surrounding scenery that looked like Timothy Leary had printed them. The subtle mauve tones of bare oak twigs have been turned so flaming pink that it looked more like a Hawaiian botanical garden - the kind of pictures even the public ignores because they're so patently hokey and over the top. One more curse of the digital age. Being able to do "anything" all too often equates to doing nothing well.

[jnantz]

Oh I've had a few Drew Wiley moments and I'm good. Thank you and I'll look into that trichrome as time goes on!

Excellent, Have fun!



One more curse of the digital age. Being able to do "anything" all too often equates to doing nothing well.

As mentioned I have superficial knowledge, no clue, no understanding of anything. I figure it is better to just be happy with what is there than be all pissed off when its not perfect. Sorry I can't type more I'm late for my excape artist class. Today's class is the one where I am handcuffed, wrapped in chains and hung by my feet off of a 5 story office building. Saturday's class is the last class, im put in a heavy straight jacket, locked in a steemer trunk and thrown in the deep end of the local YMCA. Maybe this is my last post? :)

[Laminarman]

Today's class is the one where I am handcuffed, wrapped in chains and hung by my feet off of a 5 story office building. Saturday's class is the last class, im put in a heavy straight jacket, locked in a steemer trunk and thrown in the deep end of the local YMCA. Maybe this is my last post? :)

Pictures or it didn't happen!!! : )

[Tin Can]

No pics, he's tied up.

Drew got the shot!


Pictures or it didn't happen!!! : )

[wooserco]

Wholy cow!!! What a Pi***ng contest. And two of my favorite posters to boot!!!

[Tin Can]

Ok, I will stop.

Thanks for your voice of reason.


Wholy cow!!! What a Pi***ng contest. And two of my favorite posters to boot!!!

[Drew Wiley]

Now someone is bashing cattle, and I get blamed for picking on Midwestern values? Poor Randy probably even thinks I was criticizing his lightbulb picture when I called it an alien embryo incubator. That meant I thought it was a very cool picture. But I'll leave the rorschach blot analysis to someone else - some shrink is probably already writing his thesis about me.

[John Kasaian]

Who makes it now?

Who made 2007 11X14 Arista 100? Getting ready to shoot some.

Foma. It's Fomapan unless they have changed recently. Long ago it was glorious Ilford FP-4+
I'm pretty sure 2007 vintage Arista.edu is Fomapan 100.
Really nice stuff but a booger when it comes to figuring out reciprocity from what I've heard.

[Tin Can]

I may be poor and I know I am Randy

I also know my light bulb doesn't light up the World

Tonight the Midwest gets very cold, like the 80's

This too will pass

[Tin Can]

Good to know, Thank you

The 11X14 will be shot in studio so reciprocity should not be my issue


Foma. It's Fomapan unless they have changed recently. Long ago it was glorious Ilford FP-4+
I'm pretty sure 2007 vintage Arista.edu is Fomapan 100.
Really nice stuff but a booger when it comes to figuring out reciprocity from what I've heard.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, Randy, you probably won't be cheered by the fact it was T-shirt weather here this afternoon. It's been very wet this past month, but what we call the Pineapple Express - tropical moisture arriving from the Hawaii direction. That's due to change Thursday, when the snowline drops to 3000 ft - low enough to dust a few hills here on the coast, but to pretty well cover most of the Sierra.

[jnantz]

Pictures or it didn't happen!!! : )

Have to process the film tonight ... I don't have an underwater camera for the Steamer Trunk Escape. Professor is taking us Barnstorming when the weather gets better in a few weeks, too windy on a top wing for a 4x5 !

[aaronnate]

I was out of the game for quite a while. Quick loads were my choice for color and Efke was my choice for BW. When I slowly started re-entering the photo world I was shocked by:
1. no Quickloads
2. No Efke
3. The price

Almost made me take the full digital path. I sat down at the computer, with Lightroom open. I quickly realized I like film. I like the film process. I hate working at a computer outside of work.

I spend the whole day at one or another computer. Compared to boating airplanes and women film photography is a pretty cheap hobby. One I can pretty well afford. I am slowly building my way to being able to print the BW in a process I always wanted to learn. For color I am going to have to bite the bullet and learn some puter stuff.

[John Kasaian]

One advantage to shooting 8x10 is that everything is sooo slooow.
I find there isn't enough time in the day to shoot a lot of expensive film.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I'm pissed off at Efke again. I did some shots up on Mt Diablo a couple days ago and the roll of R25 was bad. I've had bad rolls before, but none from this particular batch set aside in the freezer. Now I can't trust any of it. No big deal; it was basically a test of a particular film/lens combination which can be repeated using a more predictable film. And it was a valuable experience telling me never to rely on Efke for any serious undertaking like a remote backpack trip. The far bigger problem is that all my Dye Transfer matrix film was made by Efke too and has some known issues. Just one more complication. But nothing else comes close to a dye transfer print in terms of color when it does land on target. But it's also where sheet film is used in significant multiples, and the cost really adds up. Hopefully, my stockpile of sheet film to matrix film to dyes is in good ratio, cause I'd hate to spend more at today's rates; and matrix film is not available anymore, period, except under special coating contract to a single commercial user in the EU, obviously well-financed. Naaah.... It's all a hoax just like the moon landing. Color photography never even existed until someone figured out you can just tape colored cellophane over Smartphone lens!

[John Kasaian]

Color photography never even existed until someone figured out you can just tape colored cellophane over Smartphone lens!

Good one!
May I quote you, Drew?

[Drew Wiley]

Oh gosh, John, we're a dying breed. I did run into a young guy rock scrambling on Mt Diablo a few days ago from the Sierra foothills who still has no phone, TV, or computer. - whether by choice or location, I don't know. But at least a little sanity is left in the world. I'm sure grateful I grew up that way. ....Cliffs n caves n critters. I'm petting one as I type. And yes, you're welcome to quote me.

[Tin Can]

Nice!

[jnantz]

Additional regarding the 3C method suggested above by jnantz:

... YT tricolor — onto RA4 paper
https://youtu.be/psU24Dp5wl0

tod gangler does carbon 3C https://www.colorcarbonprint.com
https://youtu.be/VllqsEbOJyA

Notes:
Maxwell’s (Sutton, ph.) flawed demonstration in 1861 first color photo...what he demonstrated was that even with a technical failure people ‘saw’ color. The filters where tricolor, but the emulsions weren’t panchromatic. They didn’t record the scene (a still life of a ribbon) properly, yet the audience saw the ‘correct’ colors. This finding has been explored using very simple as well as very complex equipment.
The first color photograph was an illusion; convincing, durable, but a illusion demonstrating the main principle of color photography —

The only objective color photograph implemented is the Lippman plate (1908 Nobel )

//Note: you can characterize a film for separations for the dye transfer processing using:
silver set: 6 sheets 4x5 film
dye set: 4 2x6 mats & 4 4x5 mats... & blanks
That’s it... you have your ‘profile’; not much scrap emulsion burned.

The only way to know your seps are good is close the loop. this is a printmaking process; to know that step 1 is correct, you must get to step 2.

// profiling film, silver and dye; almost as if you were profiling sensor, printer & paper. No screen so no soft proofing with DTs. Everything is a hard proof, as in printmaking processes such as lithography, intaglio, even potato prints. You have to put paper on plate and pull to realize the effect; so too with dyes. If you aren’t rolling the mat, you haven’t made a separation, you’ve just exposed another sheet of film.
------ jen

Hi Jen

In these modern times, one might also look here >> http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlgendiary.py?content=Journal3
Denise Ross, the starter of thelightfarm and contributer here has a series of MIND BLOWING entries on her website about doing trichromes with home made emulsions. She has ( I wasn't able to find them ) had entries where she used different emulsions she made ( and their recipes ) for each of the RGB layers. It was truly inspiring ! ( to say the least ! )

Pretty much anything is possible with black and white film if one lets their imagination wander ....
John

[Drew Wiley]

One could hardly count the number of color processes which have been invented. The very earliest were accidental color Daguerrotypes, presumably due to unknown contaminants in the chemistry, which have never been replicated. True tricolor photography (versus hand-coloring for sake of plates) necessarily had to await the invention of panchromatic film. This at first didn't necessarily involve making prints at all. True tricolor in-camera separations were used for aligned lantern-slide projector shows; three different carbon arc projectors with a different tricolor filter in the front of each one. Autochrome was a kind of in-camera direct full-color slide. Otherwise, if someone wants to argue this or that about dye transfer technique, do so over on the DT forum. You'll get eaten alive. There were all kinds of ways of doing things, and everyone of them was the only right way as far as that particular lab or practitioner was concerned. And a few of these old competitors really didn't like each other, and apparently still don't. Each tricolor process needs certain tweaks to the separations themselves to ideally fit the specific dyes or pigments involved. There are almost endless possibilities, especially nowadays when hybrid technique is also an option. Otherwise, thank you for the Church Street link. But some of us have something far precise and predictable in mind, and are appropriately equipped. Nobody knows how many tricolor practitioners there even are at the moment. At least a few hundred worldwide. Several chime in on this very forum. A few practitioners are remarkably well equipped, almost industrial scale. My own interest in it is just for fun. I already have much easier ways to make high-quality color prints. But I have rolled a few test matrices to verify I'm on the right track. Scaling up to bigger size is the next step; but that will require finding a little more elbow room in my already equipment-clogged lab.