PDA

View Full Version : An E100 sheet film tease



Oren Grad
17-Jan-2019, 17:31
Spotted on Canham Cameras' Facebook page - look for the exchange with Oscar Wong in the comments:

No, Kodak is not yet taking orders for Ektachrome in sheet film. Sheet film uses a different substrate than roll film. I know Kodak is planning on Ektachrome sheet film, but I would not expect to see any for 8-12 months at the soonest. ( I hope I am wrong and it is here sooner, but I doubt it. It took two years to get everything working for the 35mm)

https://www.facebook.com/131324393576850/photos/a.192731554102800/2439067739469159/?type=3&theater

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 17:49
Well, we all know that sheet film requires a different base; so an entire roll would have to be dedicated to it, before getting sliced up into specific sheet sizes. I sold all my remaining 8x10 Ektachrome after I switched over to Ektar. I loved E100G; but with no more Cibachrome, what would I do with it? I already have a mountain of 8x10 transparencies suitable for making internegatives from, or separation negs for DT printing. But realistically, just how many prints via that kind of route am I going to make per year? Just a few. And my favorite interneg film at this point in history is Porta 100. So you take a sheet of that at, say, 25 bucks per sheet with processing, plus at least one unsharp contrast mask on 8x10 TMX at 10 bucks apiece, plus the original Ektachrome 8x10 at possibly 25 bucks too, and that comes out at around $60 just to get to an RA4-compatible interneg, before the cost of printing even begins. Ouch! But at least visually, it sure does justice to the original, if you happen to be patient enough to fine-tune the process, or perhaps crazy enough. Someone will no doubt reply, why not just scan it, and then inkjet it, or whatever? The look just wouldn't be the same.

Pere Casals
17-Jan-2019, 18:34
These are fantastic news.

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 18:41
It's not news yet, Pere. Kinda like being on a desert island and seeing a ship way off in the distance. It might see you, or might not. And at the rate Kodak has been increasing their film prices, will it be even remotely affordable?

Pere Casals
17-Jan-2019, 19:11
It's not news yet, Pere. Kinda like being on a desert island and seeing a ship way off in the distance. It might see you, or might not. And at the rate Kodak has been increasing their film prices, will it be even remotely affordable?

Drew, in the EU we have Velvia 8x10 2x the price than in the USA. See Fotoimpex and Maco Direct compared with B&H and Adorama. It looks that Fuji is making a bet for moderation in the LF prices, in the USA at least, this may make kodak think a bit what they do.

It would be great if they set a prince making a bet for expanding the customer base. We'll see...

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 19:31
The bigger problem is that E6 processing is becoming scarcer in the meantime. Those big processing machines require steady daily volume to warrant the cost of keeping them replenished, or frankly, even on hand at all. Just this past year, in this area we lost both E6 and C41 processing in 8X10, and it's a major urban center with a lot of film photography still going on. Fuji is nearly out of the game, and with the total absence of a Kodak product, the remaining labs simply couldn't afford to lease the necessary space anymore. I could have had some of those big dip n dunk processors for free - but where would I put them? Fortunately, 4x5 can still be locally processed, both C41 and E6, but anything larger has to be sent out. Not a huge headache, really; but if it's dying out here, who will decide to quit next? So I hope that if Kodak does revive sheet Ektachrome, it happens quickly enough for an incentive to process it to remain. Volume users aren't going to want to do it themselves in something like a drum. And if there aren't volume users, there won't be any incentive to keep coating sheet film base. And if it isn't still done on stable Estar base, I'd have no use for it. But yeah, it would be great to see again. In the meantime, I'll test the roll film version when it's available. From the preliminary reports, it does seem to be identical to E100G.

Oren Grad
17-Jan-2019, 20:04
I expanded the quote so it's clear that the film base problem was understood when the Canham comment was posted on Facebook. It's nice to hear that Kodak is working on it, but I agree with Drew that for users it's not real until they're ready to introduce it. Lots can go wrong in the lab, the factory and/or the market between now and then.

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 20:44
Well, I'm on Keith's contact list, so he routinely informs me when any special cut of Kodak film is being made. The problem at this point in life, is that a year or two here n' there missing a particular product category adds up a lot quicker than it did when I was younger. The clock is ticking. That's why is preemptively switched to color neg film and got through that learning curve. Of course, just shooting neg film and even RA4 printing is fairly simple. But doing it as well as I did Cibachrome took a running start; and I still trip on my shoelaces sometimes. Fortunately, the quality of Kodak's color neg sheet film is better than ever. Likewise, E100G was probably their best chrome film ever, though I certainly miss the special idiosyncratic hues the combination of ole Ektachrome 64 and Ciba gave. Once I start seriously printing dye transfer, I've only got enough matrix film to last five years or so - in other words, barely enough to get good at it. But by the time that phase is over, I might be stirring chemicals with a cane. I didn't even print color last year. Did shoot quite a bit of it. But after working so darn hard for nearly fifty years straight, I reckon I deserve to be allowed to print anything I wish; and at the moment, it all happens to black and white.

Pere Casals
18-Jan-2019, 04:43
Of course any lacking manufacturing step prevents having the product, but as they are coating 35mm and Super 8 Ektachrome then they have 99% of the job done for sheets. Coating on another base is a joke compared with the hundreds of complicated operations to have the chem ready, Making Kodak Film book illustrates that.

IMHO in part we have Ektachrome back thanks to cinematography. Today movie film shooting is experimenting an extraordinary prestige. It happend that people that remained analog (for good reasons) where the damn elite in the business, being a key stone Spielberg, not more and not less. His cinematographer Kamiński is like a machinegunner that places every bullet in a target. That kind of people have made such a pool of impressive things with film that his work will be praised for sure in the centuries to come, http://www.peterhogenson.com/blog/2017/7/10/black-and-white-cinematography-schindlers-list. (please whatch that video)

I suspect that sinergy with cinematography was a key factor. They have Vision 3 Super-8 (requiring special chem), they need a camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOzPVuDHAM, they need the camera to be sold in a certain ammount, so they need a reversal film for the camera, beacuse Vision 3 is negative film and not as many people would know what to do with it. And what would help having enough sells for the emulsion to be profitable is still photography. IMHO Super 8 was a key contribution factor in the game.

The de-extinction of Ektachrome is a little miracle. Who would say it ??? IMHO we all should be grateful to all people that pushed hard for this resurrection. Just a petition to Kodak, I'd ask for a commercial policy tending to expand market in the long term. The most difficult thing was made by Kamiński and his friends, this time Kodak should be at the same level.

186538

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2019, 11:05
Thanks for that, Pere. But sheet film, esp 8x10 or larger sizes (and heaven help 5x7 users) is a much smaller niche, and does indeed require special coating runs. The secret seems to be someone like Keith Canham who can build up advance orders sufficient to tip the scales in favor of Kodak making a particular size cut. But that requires patience on our part. It can take quite a few months for some requests to be fulfilled by Kodak. And really big users might take up most of a single cut, then stockpile it, which in turn causes much longer delays for casuals users of that particular film format. It's a trickier proposition than black and white sheet film, which stores better.

Pere Casals
18-Jan-2019, 11:32
esp 8x10 or larger sizes (and heaven help 5x7 users) is a much smaller niche, and does indeed require special coating runs.

Drew, they cut 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 from same roll, Kodak usually made 50 inches x 2000 feet rolls.

You may rip a 50" roll in five 10" strips or ten 5" strips.

You can cut the 5" strips in 7" sheets or 4" sheets... ...or form a 10" strip they can cut all !! making two sheets in the 10" width.

5x7" is never a problem, you only need a Paper Guillotine, only 1" is lost from a 8x10", and it can be used for calibrations and drop tests, for total convenience we can use a IR night vision "ninja" toy to see while we cut.

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2019, 12:42
Yes, thank you, I know that, Pere. But there is a minimum quantity of boxes necessary for each particular cut, due to the hassle of resetting the machinery involved. Since 5x7 and 11x14 are far less popular than 4x5 and 8x10, it might take a very long wait to get these sizes, unless you have the finances to leverage an entire minimum order yourself. As far as cutting down 8x10 to 5x7, yes, I'm well aware of that too, and even once made a very nice calibrated cutter to do it, but eventually gave it away. I love the proportion of 5x7; but when it comes to film registration for the kinds of color printing I was involved in, it can be done much more accurately on full 8x10, while 4x5 was a more convenient size for backpacking and mountaineering purposes, and can just be picked up at the local camera store, if necessary. The selection of 5x7 film in this country, particularly color, has always been scant.

Pere Casals
18-Jan-2019, 14:46
But there is a minimum quantity of boxes necessary for each particular cut, due to the hassle of resetting the machinery involved.

This is not the problem, once per year ilford even cuts the ulf size you want. A single man may cut and package 100 8x10 boxes in a day that are $15,000 worth ex-factory.

It's about bureocracy, marketing etc. Nor kodak and nor distributors won't handle a reference that is not make a $ volume per time unit, or it can expire in the shelf.

But IMHO if they coat on sheet base then there is no reason to to offer 8x10, propably they have a machine that takes a 10" strip and it also has a switch with 45, 57 and 81 positions.

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2019, 14:53
Go make argument with them, Pere. It won't get you anywhere. The people and machinery dedicated to film is just a tiny fraction of what it once was. And if they can't figure out how to make money doing this, they simply aren't going to do it. Maybe some more efficient form of distribution could be devised, creating a softer landing for end-users, financially. But that might not be easy either. There has to be incentive there too. Then there's the nightmare of currency fluctuations. You can't hoard film as long as gold.

Pere Casals
18-Jan-2019, 15:20
Go make argument with them, Pere. It won't get you anywhere.

Yes, I guess that ilford's main drive to cut custom ulf is about making customers happy to deserve their loyalty. IMHO Kodak has still to "connect" with the new market's nature. Present users are not the kind of consumers they had in the past.

SergeyT
18-Jan-2019, 15:25
...Just this past year, in this area we lost both E6 and C41 processing in 8X10
Not quite, the E6 is still there : http://oscarsphotolab.com/film-processing/

Oren Grad
18-Jan-2019, 15:43
Yes, I guess that ilford's main drive to cut custom ulf is about making customers happy to deserve their loyalty.

The Ilford special cut program almost died in 2007, on its second go-round, because of low demand. It took a special decision by the ownership/management team to keep it going:

Current ILFORD ULF Make 'The Solution' (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/current-ilford-ulf-make-the-solution.27317/)

Don't ever take this stuff for granted.

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2019, 16:12
Thanks, Sergey. I'd have to call them to see if that website is up to date. I know there was an attempt to keep 8x10 E6 going forward; but even that website shows no C41, which I currently use. Makes no difference - the time and expense just crossing the Bridge into SF would be more than a USPS Express box sending the film somewhere else, like the LA area. I've explained the problem before. Real estate is so valuable here that all kinds of viable services are losing their leases, simply so industrial buildings can be leveled and ultra-pricey condos or techie office quarters built in their place. It's an epidemic. I was offered all the machinery of one of the best equipped labs of all for downright free - maybe a couple million dollars worth! But where on earth would I put it? And why, at my age, would I want to mess with high volumes of unhealthy chemicals? Even the eco or haz business permits are very expensive to get. I'm content with my personal darkroom. So nearly all that gear was outright thrown away. The owner is well into his 70's and rich as heck anyway, has gosh knows how many businesses still going, and might as well enjoy his grandchildren while he still can.

Pere Casals
18-Jan-2019, 17:35
The Ilford special cut program almost died in 2007, on its second go-round, because of low demand. It took a special decision by the ownership/management team to keep it going:
Current ILFORD ULF Make 'The Solution' (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/current-ilford-ulf-make-the-solution.27317/)
Don't ever take this stuff for granted.

Of course, and to note that ilford pushed that in really harsh times. 2004 bankruptcy, 2005 leveraged buyout, 2006 IIRC selling the real state, 2007 integrating the Kentmere's crashed structure. But they also conquered the heart of many people from wanting to serve customers.

We'll see what happens with Ektachrome, but for the moment they are conquering the heart of many shooters that love film. Present users are not regular consumers, they are enthusiasts, and having a great slide film back...

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2019, 17:57
Having had to wrangle with the corporate bean counter mentality for several decades, I can assertively state that most of the people in top marketing positions couldn't run a hot dog stand without going broke. First of all, they'd want to get rid of the pickles and relish, to cut costs, then the ketchup, and then finally expect customers to bring their own buns. Then when they finally got the cost of their hot dog down to 59 cents, serving it cold, and not a single customer in sight, they'd stare across the street at the guy with a hot dog stand and line of twenty people behind it, each waiting to get a six dollar hot dog with a choice of eighteen home-made relishes and condiments. When times get tight, put your best foot forward, and not the worst. You need something special in terms of product or service, that stands out from your competition. But all the marketing MBA's know how to do is look over their shoulder, and copy whatever stupid idea already bankrupted somebody else. Sure glad I'm out of the game.

Tin Can
18-Jan-2019, 18:14
I may as well try them with some E6. It's even in SF!

Soon


Not quite, the E6 is still there : http://oscarsphotolab.com/film-processing/

chassis
18-Jan-2019, 19:57
Thanks Oren. I'm in for 4x5 if it comes to market.

m00dawg
24-Jan-2019, 18:59
Mentioned on the Sunny 16 (https://sunny16.podbean.com/e/ep-135-hop-on-the-hot-scoops-express/) podcast. Seems like this might be real!

Tin Can
25-Jan-2019, 07:02
Mentioned on the Sunny 16 (https://sunny16.podbean.com/e/ep-135-hop-on-the-hot-scoops-express/) podcast. Seems like this might be real!

Nothing but babble until 5.00 minute mark

Shailendra
27-Jan-2019, 22:41
Donít know how accurate this is but...

https://kosmofoto.com/2019/01/ektachrome-120-could-be-released-by-april/?fbclid=IwAR0zFowweKY8aU1o0RkaT8l0XqdvMaBsdXph6KjdIywZ_3QE-W5UJ-Gq6Ck

Oren Grad
27-Jan-2019, 23:02
Threads merged.

Drew Wiley
28-Jan-2019, 16:49
I'm always a bit skeptical of timeline rumors from dealers trying to drum up sales in advance. Wait n' see.