Reasonably Priced Monitors

[neil poulsen]

What's available now as reasonably priced CRT monitors that are suitable for color correction? It must have individual adjustments for each gun (R,G,B), brightness, and contrast. Adjustments for pincushion, barreling, rotation, etc., would also be nice.

Until the last few months, we had the LaCie 19" at $374 as quite a good option. But the OEM, Mitsubishi, has dropped this monitor, and it's no longer available. I don't think that similarly priced LCD's are good options, although perhaps I'm mistaken on this.

This is being used for LF photography. I tried asking on a more well-known digital forum, but only received a single response. So, I thought that I would check here.

Thanks.

[paulr]

i second the question ... been curious about the same thing.

[Scott Schroeder]

Well I got a great deal on a reconditioned Lacie Electron Blue IV 19" for $229 (that included shipping!) Bought it four months ago and it works great.

I see they don't have any now and I don't know how often they do, but keep an eye on their clearance center here:

http://www.lacie.com/products/clearance/

[Robert A. Zeichner]

I have no specific recommendation, but I do have a comment on CRT monitors in general. Due to the green initiative, many traditional manufacturers of CRT monitors are bailing out in preference for the LCD's. The glass used in picture tubes contains a lot of lead and cerium. All the waste that is generated in the manufacturing process has to go somewhere and the restrictions on disposing this are tremendous. Sony has discontinued all of their professional CRT monitors and only a handful of Broadcast grade monitors remain in the line. They have introduced the LUMA series of LCD monitors to replace the CRT's. Other manufacturers are slowly doing the same. The colorimetry of LCD's is different than their CRT predecessors. CRT's designed for critical color work have very specialized phosphors and circuitry designed to allow precision calibration. If critical color matching is your objective, you may have no choice but to spend big bucks on one of the few remaining CRT's designed for pre-press applications. In time, the LCD's will improve and already have with regard to noise in the blacks and image retention. Distortion and Linearity are not even an issue with LCD's. Whether they will ever rival the quality of a first rate CRT in the pre-press arena remains to be seen, but keep in mind that 25 years ago no one in the television industry thought chip cameras would ever rival the best tube cameras. Not only do they surpass them, their cost has steadily declined adjusted for inflation.

[Brian Ellis]

I just added a Dell 19" LCD after seeing it favorably compared with higher-end (and much higher cost) Samsungs and Sonys in anothe forum. I like it a lot though I'm not a super sophisticated color printer and someone who is might require something better for color matching. But after calibrating it with Spyder and using the QTR canned lab profile (not the new "create your own ICC profile" that Roy has added to the latest version) I get excellent b&w matches between monitor and print.

[bglick]

Robert, what pre press monitors are you referring to? Other than Barco, I don't know of any. The removal of CRT's in general bothers me, as many of us are ultra sensitive to looking into fluorsent lights, which is the back lighting of LCD's. I can't use them without constant health issues. Even CRT's I have to run at a min. 160hz re fresh rate. Even though CCFT flicker at 10 - 15k hertz, there is something problematic about them vs. CRT. I spent years investigating this..... CRT's are my only hope. Sony Artisan is a great monitor for color work, but as mentioned, recently discontinuted. I hope there will remain some options, even if they are "high end"

[mark blackman]

When I've been in any high-end printshop in London, the monitor of choice is without question the Apple Cinema line. The last place was producing some 4 ft wide images for London Fashion Week for some of the top names. Many of the orginal product images where shot on LF, drum scanned and printed on a Durst Lambda. I asked one of the printers: " why Apple?" He said it was partly familiarity, partly the anti-PC bias in 'design' and mainly because they could control the colour end to end. He also pointed out that they could fit two workstations into the space taken up by one using CRT technology.

[paulr]

are there any good guidelines for buying a used monitor? how long can you expect a good one to last before calibration becomes an issue?

[lauren]

Based on Paul's question, I thought this would be a good place to ask the following: I am just breaking into the world of post-production photography and, as such, I'm quite green!

I have an Acer 290 TravelMate notebook (running Windows XP; graphics card: Intel 82852/82855 GM/ GME Graphics Controller). I would like to purchase a quality monitor and connect it to the laptop in order to do color correction. First, does anyone foresee problems connecting a monitor to this kind of laptop?

Second, I was told Apple, LaCie and Ezio have the top rated monitors, but my budget is a bit tight. And after all the talk that CRTs are on the way out, how should I go about choosing between CRT and LCD? Size is also an issue as my studio apt is not too spacious. Based on my needs, can anyone recommend a particular monitor?

Lastly, any recommendations on a color calibration software that is reasonably priced?

Any advice is greatly appreciated? Thanks, Lauren

[Scott Schroeder]

Oh yea, you might also check out Dell. I believe they sell refurbed monitors also. A lot of their monitors were relabeled Sony Trinitons.

[Frank Petronio]

I would never buy a used CRT for color work. The idea way to make the monitor simulate ink on paper is to pump a lot of light through it (high brightness to simulate paper white) while keeping the contrast and color temperature lower than the monitor's native state (to simulate the lower range, dull blacks, and warmness of ink on paper). This is the basic premise behind the old Radius Pressview and the newer Sony and Enzio pre-press monitors - lots of juice running through the thing to simulate paper white.

More juice = ages faster.

I'll assume that someone running a CRT at high brightness and low contrast is going to age their monitor quicker than the typical consumer running it native at 9300K.

I used to have a pair of Pressviews and several Sonys and Apples in the studio and after 3 years I would sell them or use them for office work. When they go - at 3-4-5 years old - there is literally a puff of smoke.

$299 for a 19" LaCie is such a fricking bargain why would anyone look lower than that? A Dell? Com'on...

[paulr]

Frank, do you know if La Cie is still selling that 19" monitor you're talking about?

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

I agree completely with the general concensus that CRT monitors offer the best solution at the moment. As with televisions the LCD screens have some more to go before they can offer a viable alternative to the old tube.

Whilst a good Lacie would be the optimum solution don't dismiss completely the used market. I have used a number of refurbished Sun workstation monitors...these are mostly Sony oem products and, if you choose carefully will do a superb job. Also bear in mind that Sun offered a 24in. CRT with all the controls you would ever need should you wish for a serious monitor. All of the later Sun monitors came with standard DB15 connectors to match their lower priced workstations so are fully compatable with current PCs. Many of these monitors were used simply to monitor server applications so were never used in anger so to speak.

I wouldn't agree totally with Frank about maxing out output to simulate paper white. The general rule of thumb I have heard most is minimum brightness and increased contrast. If this were not the case why do Lacie and other manufacturers of graphics monitors offer light shields...not purely to shield reflections but to make them easier to work with at lower brightness levels. It is also advisable to work, wherever possible, in a darkened or "light reduced" room.

I guess there are as many alternative points of view on working practices as there are workers.

Where I think Frank is definately right is that at $299 the Lacie is a bargain- just get it.

Martin

[neil poulsen]

For color work, I've heard that CRT's last about 3 years before their phosphors have been spent. I have an old Dell, and it's old, that works as a second monitor but didn't make it out of the starting gate for working on images.

That's why I think new is better. One doesn't know the age or the amount of remaining life when purchasing used. Might as well spend a little extra for something new.

Someone at the other site pointed towards a 19" (18" viewable) NEC MultiSync FE992 for $219 at BH PhotoVideo. It's supposed to have a separate control for each gun, so I thought that was kind of encouraging. But, don't know about the gamut, etc. Does anyone have experience with this monitor for color work?

[steve_782]

I think it depends upon the level of LCD you're willing to purchase. The mid-priced ($2000 - $2500) Eizo's have an sRGB color gamut, while the top of the Eizo line has an Adobe 1998 color gamut. I haven't had any trouble turning out the same quality images using an LCD as using a CRT.

However, working on LCD's is a bit different than working on a CRT for sure as, in some cases, the detail in an image can interact with the pixel frequency giving disconcerting image patterns. You have to learn to ignore this sort of thing with a full screen display of an image and work overall adjustments (curves, color balance, etc.) at full screen with discrete area manipulations done at larger magnifications.

[paulr]

"However, working on LCD's is a bit different than working on a CRT for sure as, in some cases, the detail in an image can interact with the pixel frequency giving disconcerting image patterns"

I have this problem with CRTs! Maybe it's worse in the LCD world. I've never used the real high end LCDs, but I find that even on pretty nice ones, like the apple cinema displays, the contrast changes noticeably depending on where my head is. This creates a problem for me when trying to get shadow densities just right on b+w images.

Also, I find the definition of the pixels on LCD screens to be too sharp for my tastes ... things take on a pretty harsh, unnaturally edgy look a lot of the time. Maybe this is less so on the very high end LCDs, or maybe it's something I'll just get used to. But in the mean time, the $300 La Cie sounds like a steal.

[Robert A. Zeichner]

After conferring last night with a friend who owns a high end pre-press service, our consensus is that of the CRT's left, the Barco is all that remains. But, at what price? The other issue is Barco's after sale service. A client of mine bought a Barco High Definition Broadcast monitor for over $10,000 just a couple of years ago and has been unable to find anyone, anywhere in the US that can service it. It's totally useless! I even called their projector division on his behalf to try and find out where he could send it and got no return call.

The Apple Cinema display seems to be the best option presently.

[neil poulsen]

Right now, I'm looking into the Viewsonic 220 21" or the Nec/Mitsubishi 19". Both claim to be designed for graphic work and both have individual adjustments for R,G,B. I believe the Viewsonic has an aperture grille, which is better.

If I could find new ones locally, I'd profile them and compare their gamuts to that of the LaCie. (Using ColorThink.) But, decent CRT's are getting more difficult to find.