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denverjims
11-Jan-2019, 13:54
Hi All,
A friend of mine just emailed me that:
"Just heard from a friend of mine from southern England, claiming that Ilford is working on and contemplating bringing out another B/W high resolution paper. Do you have any wind of this at all?"

I had not but thought I'd turn it out to the forum. Any knowledge of this out there?
Best, Jim

Andrew O'Neill
11-Jan-2019, 14:15
I've heard nothing... but that would be great!

faberryman
11-Jan-2019, 14:16
What is a high resolution paper?

Pieter
11-Jan-2019, 14:20
Inkjet?

Pere Casals
11-Jan-2019, 14:54
It should be inkjet paper, as they always speak about "high resolution receiving coatings". Silver gelatin photopaper is always high res by nature, they don't announce photo paper with that wording, it would be LOL, I guess.

Drew Wiley
11-Jan-2019, 15:01
Optical high-resolution wouldn't imply paper per se, but being coating on high-gloss polyester, which is indeed capable of holding far more detail, similarly to Cibachrome of Fuji Supergloss in the color realm. They've experimentally done this before using MGIV emulsion. I don't see how any kind of inkjet can be classified as truly high resolution, though it can hypothetically be improved in this respect. But I don't trust rumors in general.

Pere Casals
11-Jan-2019, 15:38
Drew, BW photopaper are in the range of 60lp/mm to 100lp/mm, it makes little sense to speak about a high res photopaper for prints because capability of any paper exceeds by a large margin what a human eye is able to see.

Drew Wiley
11-Jan-2019, 15:47
Malarky, Pere. There's more to it than lp/mm. Can't you at least once throw away your calculator?

Jac@stafford.net
11-Jan-2019, 15:55
Drew, BW photopaper are in the range of 60lp/mm to 100lp/mm, it makes little sense to speak about a high res photopaper for prints because capability of any paper exceeds by a large margin what a human eye is able to see.

Agreed. Beside creating unreasonable test images with unusable contrast 60lp/mm is reasonable for our work.

Pere Casals
11-Jan-2019, 16:24
Agreed. Beside creating unreasonable test images with unusable contrast 60lp/mm is reasonable for our work.

Just inspecting any contact print with a powerful magnifier... one realizes what ammount of insane information a sheet has inside, and how well it is recorded in a good contact print. By naked eye we may see 1/100 ("in pixel count terms") of what a paper may record...

Drew Wiley
11-Jan-2019, 16:44
But Pere, polyester base is equivalent to film itself, in what it is capable of holding. This potentially translates into a whole different level of look from paper, even RC paper. Of course, I have no idea if this is what the rumor involves or not. Inkjet is self-limiting by nozzle size. Laser printing onto a gloss material brings things a lot closer to what optimized optical systems can do. And what the heck do pixels have to do with any of this? I thought bobcats and hawks ate most of those little rodents.

Pere Casals
11-Jan-2019, 17:37
Drew, a contact copy of a 1951 glass slide and a microscope is what it tells paper resolving power. What contains the resolving power is the gelatin emulsion, and the gelatin emulsion, if IIRC, is on a layer of baryted gelatin. The baryted gelatin layer can be as smooth as the polyethylene coating that seals the RC paper, but a post by Ron Mowrey stated:

"In tests, it can be shown that apparent imaging sharpness decreases on the approximate order RC glossy > FB glossy > RC matte > FB matte > Smooth plain paper > textured plain paper"

The surface finishing (matte, glossy) has an slight effect on the "apparent" imaging sharpness that's hard to notice at normal viewing distances, but the true resolving power of any silver gelatin paper is amazingly high, beyond what a LF lens may record in a negative.

If the inkjet papers are High Resolution... what the hell are silver gelatin papers ? :)

Drew Wiley
11-Jan-2019, 17:56
I can probably print as sharp as anyone on this forum. Gosh knows I've got the equipment to do it, at least up to a forty inch print. Surface texture not only has an effect on sharpness, but on tonality. Light gets scattered. Different kinds of subject matter often warrant a different kind of treatment in this respect. That's why I happen to use everything from matte papers clear up to full gloss. But inkjet is simply not capable of any kind of high resolution. It's made with an array of little spray paint cans, with nozzles big enough for little particles to pass through. These have gotten remarkably small compared to what they once were, and have opened up printing opportunities to the masses. But try taking an inkjet print and enlarging it just like you would a sheet of film - it would be a complete smudge. Polyester base "printing paper"(a misnomer) can hold chemical detail just like film does. It is a film, just thicker, and exists both opaque for front-lit prints, and transparent for backlit. RC isn't the same thing at all, but a coated sensitized actual paper sandwiched between thin permeable layers of plastic. There are subtle yet rewarding differences, just as there are between contact and projection prints, which cannot be totally quantified. Maybe that's why most geeks and physicists make lousy photographers, even if they hold patents on the cameras they're using. The most important tool is your own set of eyes. An image on even glossy RC paper looks a bit "lossy" compared to a true integral polyester base. Heck, the general public can spot the difference in about two seconds at an exhibition. Maybe they aren't staring at a calculator the whole time.

Pere Casals
11-Jan-2019, 18:10
Surface texture not only has an effect on sharpness, but on tonality.

Drew, not only surface has an effect on tonality, also lightning. Depending in how we illuminate the print we have major differences in tonality and perceived sharpness. Matte and Pearl are safety belts for a bad illumination, but a glossy well illuminated may be impressive. Perhaps some textures are better displayed with matte or pearl, not sure, still I've no a refined criterion about that...

Drew Wiley
11-Jan-2019, 18:44
True gloss prints can have a 3d effect to them and an impression of detail (esp from large format originals) that even the glossiest RC papers do not. But they can be tricky to properly frame and illumine in big display sizes. Not everyone likes glossy prints; some people hate em, while others love em. Some have stereotyped opinions because they've never seen one well done. Using gloss just for the sake of gloss can come across as mere glitz, like patent leather. It's no substitute for sound taste. Likewise detail. I use extreme detail as another tool in a rather complex toolbox or suite of options. Not all of it has to be quantifiably seen to still have a cumulative visual effect. It all somehow adds up. I've done hundreds of Cibachromes, and a number of Fuji Supergloss prints; but I don't think I'd personally like the same effect in black and white images. I generally, but not exclusively, choose ordinary "gloss" fiber-based papers. For one thing, it's difficult to mount pure plastic papers. You can't just routinely drymount em. But if Ilford did hypothetically do a run of this kind of thing, and anyone could afford it, it would comprise an interesting option.

denverjims
12-Jan-2019, 08:21
Drew & Pere,
While I have been interested in your discussion, I'm wondering if your posts could be directed a little more on-topic? I was looking to find out about a possible new Ilford paper and figured that others might have specific info on the subject and/or be interested in knowing as well. Not trying to close out this discussion, just thinking that it deserves its own thread.

Respectfully & Best, Jim

bob carnie
12-Jan-2019, 08:29
drew & pere,
while i have been interested in your discussion, i'm wondering if your posts could be directed a little more on-topic? I was looking to find out about a possible new ilford paper and figured that others might have specific info on the subject and/or be interested in knowing as well. Not trying to close out this discussion, just thinking that it deserves its own thread.

Respectfully & best, jim

lol

scheinfluger_77
12-Jan-2019, 08:33
Drew & Pere,
While I have been interested in your discussion, I'm wondering if your posts could be directed a little more on-topic? I was looking to find out about a possible new Ilford paper and figured that others might have specific info on the subject and/or be interested in knowing as well. Not trying to close out this discussion, just thinking that it deserves its own thread.

Respectfully & Best, Jim

+1000

Sheesh!

:D

Sfroza
12-Jan-2019, 09:24
Yup.

Pere Casals
12-Jan-2019, 18:23
While I have been interested in your discussion, I'm wondering if your posts could be directed a little more on-topic?

Ok :), please let me answer your topic clearly.

BW photopaper has been ULTRA high resolving power since a century ago, at least. If the topic speaks about High Res without the ULTRA word included, this was about bare inkjet paper, ideal for mundane works. Not that difficult to guess it.

Duolab123
13-Jan-2019, 00:06
If Ilford wanted to stun us all. Bring back P.O.P.
Kentmere used to make Centennial brand of print out paper. Stopped when Ilford aquirered Kentmere.

interneg
13-Jan-2019, 02:12
If Ilford wanted to stun us all. Bring back P.O.P.
Kentmere used to make Centennial brand of print out paper. Stopped when Ilford aquirered Kentmere.

Not happening, far too dangerous to the workforce to make unless on a dedicated machine. Gelatin POP has to be coated at significantly higher temperatures than developing-out-paper & silver nitrate gets splashed everywhere - the machine has to be stripped & cleaned totally after coating. As I understand it, the Kentmere product resulted from a cold war nuclear defence need, & was subsequently coated on FB - and was scheduled immediately before the annual shutdown/ deep cleaning.

More chance of polyester base MG or a new Kentona than POP. It may be that Ilford is contemplating making a new batch of direct positive paper on opaque poly base (like the Imago product formerly coated in Switzerland) & that's all there is to it. If it's anything other than rumours, it'll come to light pretty fast.

bob carnie
13-Jan-2019, 07:41
I would not be surprised if they introduce a digital Warm Tone silver paper, many labs would buy this product.

gypsydog
13-Jan-2019, 13:31
Totally agree , some time ago Ilford asked for input as to what type of paper to produce next. Centennial P.O.P. was my request.
I would seriously consider buying a lifetime supply if they did.


If Ilford wanted to stun us all. Bring back P.O.P.
Kentmere used to make Centennial brand of print out paper. Stopped when Ilford aquirered Kentmere.

denverjims
13-Jan-2019, 15:38
Ok :), please let me answer your topic clearly.

BW photopaper has been ULTRA high resolving power since a century ago, at least. If the topic speaks about High Res without the ULTRA word included, this was about bare inkjet paper, ideal for mundane works. Not that difficult to guess it.

Pere,
I think you are on to the answer (as was your original post to the thread). I went back to talk more with the friend that started this and he now thinks that the person in England he talked to is beginning to work in digital printing. Because the source had worked years in traditional, he assumed they were talking about a silver based paper. ...but we all know what "assume" means. :)
I'm considering it "case closed" for now unless I hear differently.

Thanks to all who contributed, Jim

Pere Casals
13-Jan-2019, 15:52
he assumed they were talking about a silver based paper...

Let me reiterate that silver gelatin photo paper has a crazy high resolving power, for what's a printing medium. I've made some 8x10 contact prints coming from Nikon W360 crazy sharp shots. One can spend hours with a x20 magnifier on a contact copy while discovering what was in the landscape, really I can't figure what it can be improved in photopaper's sharpness, beyond the photographer :)

Drew Wiley
13-Jan-2019, 16:04
Here's the common-sense link some of you are missing : Remember back when Ilford acquired Swiss Ciba-Geigy? That's how they had the ability to temporarily come up with an experimental "Ultra Super-Duper Mega Deluxe Overwhemingly Sharp" b&w sheet product. Hope that satisfies Pere's demand for a taxonomic distinction. The visual distinction is obvious. I don't give a hoot about the semantics. It could be mfg optical or laser-digital cross-compatible.

Pere Casals
13-Jan-2019, 16:25
Here's the common-sense link some of you are missing : Remember back when Ilford acquired Swiss Ciba-Geigy? That's how they had the ability to temporarily come up with an experimental "Ultra Super-Duper Mega Deluxe Overwhemingly Sharp" b&w sheet product. Hope that satisfies Pere's demand for a taxonomic distinction. The visual distinction is obvious. I don't give a hoot about the semantics. It could be mfg optical or laser-digital cross-compatible.

Drew, photo paper has a quite simple structure, even me I'm able to manufacture baryted paper resolving 60 lp/mm with my DIY emulsion for dry plates. Denise has a new book on that. Here Ron Mowrey speaks how to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4q0Ryh9pBE&t=101s Another thing is making an industrial/commercial paper, buy in every situation a low speed emulsion has crazy sharpness.

cowanw
13-Jan-2019, 16:34
Just for the record Ilford is the company that makes injet photo paper and Harmon is the company that makes Ilford chemical photo paper.

Drew Wiley
13-Jan-2019, 16:38
No Pere, you are not capable of making something like Cibachrome, even monochrome, though you might be capable of coating voided white Fuji Supergloss base with something interesting. Why do you keep referring to paper? These are not paper at all, even RC. And they don't look like paper. But who knows what the source of this rumor is, or if any kind of product is really going to come out? Quite a few companies go on fishing expeditions just to see if there's any interest, before they actually make anything.

Oren Grad
13-Jan-2019, 16:52
Just for the record Ilford is the company that makes injet photo paper and Harmon is the company that makes Ilford chemical photo paper.

Just for the record, Harman Technology also offers inkjet paper under the Harman brand:

https://www.harmantechnology.com/inkjet

Drew Wiley
13-Jan-2019, 17:02
The Swiss division even made RA4 paper, though I'm unaware of any US distribution of it. They made an RC version of Ifochrome, dye-destruction films, transparency display material, etc; but poly Ilfochrome was their flagship product back then. It's probable that the MG4 emulsion was shipped there for actual coating, but I could be wrong. The mfg of the special base was half the battle. The current Fujiflex base is different.

cowanw
13-Jan-2019, 20:17
Just for the record, Harman Technology also offers inkjet paper under the Harman brand:

https://www.harmantechnology.com/inkjet

Never say neve, eh!

Drew Wiley
14-Jan-2019, 13:58
What's the big deal about inkjet paper? If you can get away with selling basic sized paper, minus the gelatin or silver, for as much as coated paper, why not?

Pere Casals
14-Jan-2019, 14:15
What's the big deal about inkjet paper? If you can get away with selling basic sized paper, minus the gelatin or silver, for as much as coated paper, why not?

Drew, not that easy. "Receiving coatings" on paper have to take the picoliter drops without spreading much.

Also there was the OBA epoch (LOL). Some remarkable printers were using amazing papers... that lasted 6 months before going yellow. Presently they say... now we only use Hahnemühle :)

But, yes, I agree, inkjet paper is now a nice business, you only need to built prestige and selling not a very special thing, most of succes is OBA free. A UV torch for currency also may work to detect papers for nightclubs

bob carnie
14-Jan-2019, 14:23
Here's the common-sense link some of you are missing : Remember back when Ilford acquired Swiss Ciba-Geigy? That's how they had the ability to temporarily come up with an experimental "Ultra Super-Duper Mega Deluxe Overwhemingly Sharp" b&w sheet product. Hope that satisfies Pere's demand for a taxonomic distinction. The visual distinction is obvious. I don't give a hoot about the semantics. It could be mfg optical or laser-digital cross-compatible.

Harmon has no relationship with the Swiss company.

Drew Wiley
14-Jan-2019, 15:14
It was always a symbiotic relation, Bob. There might have been some formal corporate union in the past. But basically, Ilford was a blanket marketing arrangement or label, with color products being based in Switzerland under what was formerly Ciba-Geigy, and traditional black and white film and paper in England. Even after the formal split, there remained an understanding that at least a capacity for joint marketing experimentation would still exist. That kind of thing goes on all the time, even between corporations that are in other ways competitors with one another, especially in the sense of being subcontractors for one another. I could cite numerous instances. But it's more common in Europe than here.

Drew Wiley
14-Jan-2019, 15:23
Pere - good paper certainly isn't cheap anymore. But by mere "sizing", I am implying whatever is necessary to the receiver coat. But still, that is a minor expense or chore compared to silver. Same goes for inkjet ink: the profit margins are obscene. But that doesn't mean the formulators are getting rich, because there is a lot of competition as well as massive up-front R&D expenditure. That's why I think we're about to hit a plateau of "good enough" in this kind of technology, with a lot of potential new ideas and even extant patents not seeing the light of day anytime soon, if ever. Profitability has to be factored in at a certain point in time, or the marketing venture gets the Darwin award.

Tin Can
14-Jan-2019, 15:28
3 years ago. State of the Film Industry with Michael Bain of Ilford (https://youtu.be/ag0lTUiSZqk)

Oren Grad
14-Jan-2019, 16:14
It was always a symbiotic relation, Bob. There might have been some formal corporate union in the past. But basically, Ilford was a blanket marketing arrangement or label, with color products being based in Switzerland under what was formerly Ciba-Geigy, and traditional black and white film and paper in England. Even after the formal split, there remained an understanding that at least a capacity for joint marketing experimentation would still exist. That kind of thing goes on all the time, even between corporations that are in other ways competitors with one another, especially in the sense of being subcontractors for one another. I could cite numerous instances. But it's more common in Europe than here.

Drew, Ilford collaborated with Ciba in the early-mid-'60s on the development of Cibachrome, before there was any formal corporate relationship. Ciba bought Ilford in 1966, at which point they became effectively one company, not a "blanket marketing arrangement". Much later, in 1989, the entire photographic operation, under the Ilford name, was sold to International Paper, and in due course the name of Cibachrome was changed to Ilfochrome to reflect the fact that Ciba no longer had anything to do with it. The Swiss facility remained part of Ilford through the acquisition of Ilford by Doughty Hanson in 1997-8 and remained so until the bankruptcy and reorganization in 2004-5. It was only at that point that the new Harman Technology acquired the Ilford B&W photographic business and UK operating assets (factory in Mobberley) while the Swiss operation and some other corporate components were spun off as an independent entity that has followed a separate path of ownership and operations ever since.

The one connection I'm aware of between the two since the split is that the emulsion for Harman Direct Positive paper, which originated in the Swiss facility, was supplied to Harman for a while by Ilford Imaging. To my knowledge the production of Harman Direct Positive is now entirely in-house at Mobberley, and I'm not aware of any other ongoing collaboration (which of course doesn't prove there isn't any!).

FWIW, I don't know if there is any production of inkjet paper currently ongoing in Mobberley. The "fine art" FB photo inkjet papers sold under the Harman brand and then by collaboration with Hahnemuhle are gone, and I believe the Harman Crystaljet RC inkjet papers are actually outsourced, not produced in Mobberley.

I have no idea what any new paper might be, but if it's real, I'll be pleased to see that Harman continues to be able to bring new products to market.

Tin Can
14-Jan-2019, 16:29
A lot of that is explained in the video I posted.

By pure chance I watched earlier today!

Drew Wiley
14-Jan-2019, 16:54
Like I said, Oren, all kinds of collaborations go on; and in this case, it's purely hypothetical. Apparently none us of actually knows anything about some new product. I doubt Harmon would want to risk investment itself in a specialized base and coating for an experimental run. Perhaps an old roll of coating stock still exists in Switzerland; polyester is highly stable and it doesn't go bad if it isn't coated yet. Ciba-Geigy was basically a big pharmaceutical conglomerate that owned Harmon and the Ilford name for awhile. And yes, I remember International Paper getting involved at one point. I used Cibachrome from the get-go, and even met the guy behind it all, though it was basically a modernization of the old Gasparcolor dye-bleach technique of the 1930's, and I don't think the British operation had anything to do with the actual formulation of it, though the documentation I possess is rather brief about that point. I think they were just a distribution channel, acquired by Ciba for that purpose. That's why I called it basically a symbiosis. Likewise, when Ilford per se (under the auspices of Intl Paper) bought the rights to Swiss Cibachrome, and changed it's name to Ilfochrome, they really didn't have much impact on the Swiss manufacturing operation at all. The redesigned second version of Ciba was already up and running. For all practical purposes, it was just a branding change. I suppose that was a good thing. But what all unraveled it here in the US toward the end was an inept distributor. All kinds of outfits could also hypothetically provide inkjet paper for private re-branding. We're all aware of it, except that I'm not personally involved with inkjet. I've already got plenty to do in the darkroom.... But Randy, that was sure a spooky little firetrap of a camera store that video was made in. In this area, the Fire Marshall would have shut it down in a heartbeat, with all those extension cords here n' there. Or maybe those were just temporary for sake of the cheap ole chicken brooder photoflood lights needed for the video. In that case, it would have been as hot as hell anyway.

Oren Grad
14-Jan-2019, 18:02
Drew, your understanding of the history is seriously confused. I will leave it at that.

Drew Wiley
14-Jan-2019, 18:26
No it is not, Oren. Not at all. I heard some of this first person. The British had nothing to do with the revival of a dye-destruction product other than marketing. It was all Swiss. And their precedent went way back to Gasparcolor. I even saw a few of the remaining specific Gasparcolor images from the mid-30's which they took as their inspiration, still unfaded! This was all German/Swiss/ Austrian activity, all along. It was a bit later that the same people took over direct management of the British division. What is your source of information? It's really no big deal to me, because it's all academic at this point in history. But I've never personally heard or read anything that implied the Harmon side had any R&D input into Cibachrome whatsoever. They were run as a separate division. Even Wicked-pedia states the same as I've just summarized (though I never trust that site entirely). And that jogged my memory about the temporary involvement of Oji Paper too.

bob carnie
15-Jan-2019, 07:06
It was always a symbiotic relation, Bob. There might have been some formal corporate union in the past. But basically, Ilford was a blanket marketing arrangement or label, with color products being based in Switzerland under what was formerly Ciba-Geigy, and traditional black and white film and paper in England. Even after the formal split, there remained an understanding that at least a capacity for joint marketing experimentation would still exist. That kind of thing goes on all the time, even between corporations that are in other ways competitors with one another, especially in the sense of being subcontractors for one another. I could cite numerous instances. But it's more common in Europe than here.

I can assure you there is no joint marketing going on they split for good, daddy does not come back for two day visits.

bob carnie
15-Jan-2019, 07:09
Drew, Ilford collaborated with Ciba in the early-mid-'60s on the development of Cibachrome, before there was any formal corporate relationship. Ciba bought Ilford in 1966, at which point they became effectively one company, not a "blanket marketing arrangement". Much later, in 1989, the entire photographic operation, under the Ilford name, was sold to International Paper, and in due course the name of Cibachrome was changed to Ilfochrome to reflect the fact that Ciba no longer had anything to do with it. The Swiss facility remained part of Ilford through the acquisition of Ilford by Doughty Hanson in 1997-8 and remained so until the bankruptcy and reorganization in 2004-5. It was only at that point that the new Harman Technology acquired the Ilford B&W photographic business and UK operating assets (factory in Mobberley) while the Swiss operation and some other corporate components were spun off as an independent entity that has followed a separate path of ownership and operations ever since.

The one connection I'm aware of between the two since the split is that the emulsion for Harman Direct Positive paper, which originated in the Swiss facility, was supplied to Harman for a while by Ilford Imaging. To my knowledge the production of Harman Direct Positive is now entirely in-house at Mobberley, and I'm not aware of any other ongoing collaboration (which of course doesn't prove there isn't any!).

FWIW, I don't know if there is any production of inkjet paper currently ongoing in Mobberley. The "fine art" FB photo inkjet papers sold under the Harman brand and then by collaboration with Hahnemuhle are gone, and I believe the Harman Crystaljet RC inkjet papers are actually outsourced, not produced in Mobberley.

I have no idea what any new paper might be, but if it's real, I'll be pleased to see that Harman continues to be able to bring new products to market.

I am understand that ART 300 is a Hahnehmule based paper, beyond that I am not sure what the relationship is between them, though the baryta paper needs to be coated for Hahnemuhle somewhere, mobberley would be the obvious choice.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 07:40
I read yesterday Art 300 has no clay base, it's emulsion on paper.


I am understand that ART 300 is a Hahnehmule based paper, beyond that I am not sure what the relationship is between them, though the baryta paper needs to be coated for Hahnemuhle somewhere, mobberley would be the obvious choice.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 08:12
Source https://www.shutterbug.com/content/ilford-multigrade-art-300-new-exciting-multigrade-silver-paper



I read yesterday Art 300 has no clay base, it's emulsion on paper.

Pere Casals
15-Jan-2019, 08:33
Source https://www.shutterbug.com/content/ilford-multigrade-art-300-new-exciting-multigrade-silver-paper

Interesting, 1.6 DMax only and presumably less powerful whites (no baryte). Still a remarkable texture and a particular aesthetics from forced scale limitation. It looks made for carbon lovers.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 08:40
I have a box coming as I have wanted to try it.

Watched this video yesterday.

Ilford Art 300 (https://youtu.be/iCAXNM7Mi5g)



Interesting, 1.6 DMax only and presumably less powerful whites (no baryte). Still a remarkable texture and a particular aesthetics from forced scale limitation. It looks made for carbon lovers.

Sal Santamaura
15-Jan-2019, 08:44
Drew, your understanding of the history is seriously confused. I will leave it at that.Oren, before retirement I commuted 100 miles round trip per day for 33 years. I never affixed a bumper sticker to any of my cars, but had lots of time in Los Angeles traffic to read every one on other vehicles that came into view. The best of that lot was:



I Feel Much Better Since I Gave Up Hope

Perhaps you ought embrace the sentiment. Especially when dealing with posters who know everything about absolutely everything. :)

Pere Casals
15-Jan-2019, 08:58
Ilford Art 300 (https://youtu.be/iCAXNM7Mi5g)

I find Min 12:00 is the interesting spot of the video, showing texture, really nice.

Indirectly IMHO this brings some attention to Denise Ross' last book, in that way we can select the texture we want.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 09:04
I will be using it for the print exchange. Regardless!

I hope it scans horribly...

faberryman
15-Jan-2019, 09:04
I find Min 12:00 is the interesting spot of the video, showing texture, really nice.
You can't rely on some YouTube for this. You have to see and feel it for yourself. Despite all the glowing reviews, I hated the sheen and texture of Ilford Art 300. YMMV.

Pere Casals
15-Jan-2019, 09:26
You can't rely on some YouTube for this. You have to see and feel it for yourself.

Frank, I agree... one should have it in the hands to see. I'm still discovering papers... Anyway the video at least shows that texture is directional from rolling, we may use texture Hor or Vert, also in that sample we see the effect of sharper pine branches on the texture, this would we a way different effect than with an inkjet printing on paper texture, I guess. I feel I've a lot to learn about basic printing before going to this paper.

Oren Grad
15-Jan-2019, 09:50
I am understand that ART 300 is a Hahnehmule based paper, beyond that I am not sure what the relationship is between them, though the baryta paper needs to be coated for Hahnemuhle somewhere, mobberley would be the obvious choice.

For a while Hahnemuhle was selling a line of baryta inkjet papers under the branding "Harman by Hahnemuhle". But those are apparently gone now. I don't know where they're having their own-brand papers coated - a box of Photo Rag Baryta that I have on hand is unlabeled as to origin.

bob carnie
15-Jan-2019, 10:02
I read yesterday Art 300 has no clay base, it's emulsion on paper.

makes sense as it floats like crazy.... the baryta inkjet line does have a clay coating and I do think its done by Harman.Or at least that is what I have been told by reps from both companies.

bob carnie
15-Jan-2019, 10:04
You can't rely on some YouTube for this. You have to see and feel it for yourself. Despite all the glowing reviews, I hated the sheen and texture of Ilford Art 300. YMMV.

I think it is the best paper out there for my aesthetics, Ilford warmtone emulsion on rag paper, I find it intensely beautiful paper.

Oren Grad
15-Jan-2019, 10:05
David Vestal wrestled with Art 300 and wrote a very informative review:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180123131622/http://phototechmag.com/ilford-mg-art-300-paper/

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 10:16
Good link Oren, i have a backup plan.

I was already planning on considerable unprinted margin to allow for weighty clips to sink it.

All good!


David Vestal wrestled with Art 300 and wrote a very informative review:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180123131622/http://phototechmag.com/ilford-mg-art-300-paper/

Oren Grad
15-Jan-2019, 11:33
Good link Oren, i have a backup plan.

I was already planning on considerable unprinted margin to allow for weighty clips to sink it.

All good!

Great, let us know how it goes!

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 11:43
I will, good or bad.

Today it's DOF and big flashbulbs.


Great, let us know how it goes!

Drew Wiley
15-Jan-2019, 11:56
I see you're up to your usual "revenge wisecracks". Sal. I'm fair game, and certainly don't mind a sucker punch from time to time. Look up the career of Peter Krause. That's where I got this, face to face. He began with Agfa Ansco, back when Gasparcolor was a still live process under their control, moved to the US awhile in a photo marketing capacity, then back to Europe to Ciba Geigy as Manager of its Photo and Instrument division, where and when Cibachrome was developed; and only AFTER the acquisition of Ilford was appointed its President. I don't think it can get more "gold standard" than that, though there are no doubt many details of the R&D phase I have no personal knowledge of. Like it or not, I do my homework, especially since I specialized in Cibachrome for thirty years. No choice. If something went wrong on their end, as it very much did when big paper companies didn't have a clue how to properly warehouse and handle expensive sensitized material, it equated to grief on my end.

cowanw
15-Jan-2019, 12:28
Good link Oren, i have a backup plan.

I was already planning on considerable unprinted margin to allow for weighty clips to sink it.

All good!

I use a plexiglass 1/4 inch thick rectangle to sit on top of the dividers in my print washers.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 12:50
I use a plexiglass 1/4 inch thick rectangle to sit on top of the dividers in my print washers.

Good idea! I may modify for my Rosy Products 11x14 print washer (http://www.rosyproducts.com/archivalprintwashers.htm) as I don't have the floating lid and didn't need it until now.

It's the top one in the picture. He made Lindal sinks. (http://www.leedal.com/) Mabe still does as they have an active website about where Quick Set (https://youtu.be/UNdJNQSo7UE) was...I worked there 48 years ago for 10 minutes. Bad job.

Calling him shortly.

Drew Wiley
15-Jan-2019, 14:45
If you size a piece of acrylic for a "floating lid" (actually, non-floating, or it would be worthless), be sure to ease the cut edges well using a ski file or sandpaper. As it will bob up and down a bit with water volume, sometimes a sheet of film or paper can slip past and get cut by a sharp edge. Film tends to sink, while fiber-based paper contains a bit of air and often rises. I've made a number of slot print washers and so forth. It's fairly easy if you understand basic acrylic fabrication and have the right tools.

scheinfluger_77
15-Jan-2019, 16:26
Source https://www.shutterbug.com/content/ilford-multigrade-art-300-new-exciting-multigrade-silver-paper

Boy, that’s effusive praise.

Drew Wiley
15-Jan-2019, 16:33
People who write articles for a living, especially in the form of product reviews, and get free samples of things for sake of writing about them, seldom make a bad remark or negative assessment, or else their gravy train might dry up. It's predictable.

Tin Can
15-Jan-2019, 17:39
I read Shutterbug for a long time. I always enjoyed the travels and enthusiasm of the ROGER W. HICKS & FRANCES E. SCHULTZ tag team.

I eagerly awaited each large print Shutterbug issue with plies of ads and articles about exotic cameras I never could afford.

I shot one camera for decades. I first touched it in 1959 when my father brought home a Honeywell Pentax H1 or H3, high tech indeed.

It's not about perfection in every damn thing. It is how we use our time on this planet. We are all very lucky to be fortunate enough we can complain about silly things.

Perhaps some may like the extensive web site Roger and Francis happily post. http://www.rogerandfrances.com/ click to this http://rogerandfrances.eu/

I do!

Maybe I should go back to 35mm Pentax and escape the Topping Club.

Drew Wiley
15-Jan-2019, 18:43
I was looking for my old H1 the other day. I dissected it years ago after the shutter finally wore out, but kept it in a box along with the externally-coupled meter and the lens, which still work. Shutterbug was basically just classified ads. I could have written articles for certain photo or darkroom magazines, but they paid poorly. Instead, I did some reviews for trade magazines that did pay quite well. I had a no BS policy. So the junk manufactures avoided me like the plague. And when I did get free samples, it happened be some very nice machinery, lifetime quality. And no, I don't own a Leica. I happened to like that lil ole Pentax quite a bit. It was reliable, at least until it went thru sheer hell in the mountains, year after year.

Duolab123
15-Jan-2019, 19:11
You can't rely on some YouTube for this. You have to see and feel it for yourself. Despite all the glowing reviews, I hated the sheen and texture of Ilford Art 300. YMMV.

Yes the "sparkle" of this paper is very confusing. It's just about the closest modern thing I've found to Ektalure. Ektalure came in so many flavors, my favorite was G surface this for those of us with 1960s era darkroom data guides is closer to Ektalure K surface, it's a bizarre, sparkling lightly, pebbled surface. It is awesome paper. Selenium makes it spectacular. I'm kind of on hold. I may try to find a matte spray, if it's still made. Spritz a little into the air and wave the print through the cloud :-)
When I first tried it I bought 2 or 3 boxes, afraid it would disappear. I've even thought of a wax or paraffin coating? ??

Watching it tone in Selenium is magical.
Best Regards Mike

Duolab123
15-Jan-2019, 19:26
I see you're up to your usual "revenge wisecracks". Sal. I'm fair game, and certainly don't mind a sucker punch from time to time. Look up the career of Peter Krause. That's where I got this, face to face. He began with Agfa Ansco, back when Gasparcolor was a still live process under their control, moved to the US awhile in a photo marketing capacity, then back to Europe to Ciba Geigy as Manager of its Photo and Instrument division, where and when Cibachrome was developed; and only AFTER the acquisition of Ilford was appointed its President. I don't think it can get more "gold standard" than that, though there are no doubt many details of the R&D phase I have no personal knowledge of. Like it or not, I do my homework, especially since I specialized in Cibachrome for thirty years. No choice. If something went wrong on their end, as it very much did when big paper companies didn't have a clue how to properly warehouse and handle expensive sensitized material, it equated to grief on my end.

Hi Drew and all. Not sure if this helps. I love this site

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Cibachrome.html

Sfroza
15-Jan-2019, 23:19
Oren, before retirement I commuted 100 miles round trip per day for 33 years. I never affixed a bumper sticker to any of my cars, but had lots of time in Los Angeles traffic to read every one on other vehicles that came into view. The best of that lot was:



I Feel Much Better Since I Gave Up Hope

Perhaps you ought embrace the sentiment. Especially when dealing with posters who know everything about absolutely everything. :)

I feel much better after I block them.

Tin Can
16-Jan-2019, 06:40
Yes, your definitive link does a fantastic job of explaining all historical Cibachrome processes.

Links that offer factual depth with practical experience that mere humans can emulate are always useful.

Youtube videos are also welcome although many are long and talkative.

Thank you!


Hi Drew and all. Not sure if this helps. I love this site

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Cibachrome.html

interneg
16-Jan-2019, 17:08
it's a bizarre, sparkling lightly, pebbled surface.

It's not bizarre at all - at least not compared to the horribly cheesy baryta coated impersonations of mould-made papers produced over the years. All it is is a cold pressed cotton paper with an emulsion that has neither matting agents nor various additives to improve gloss - what you're largely seeing is the natural sheen of the gelatin.

faberryman
16-Jan-2019, 17:32
It's not bizarre at all - at least not compared to the horribly cheesy baryta coated impersonations of mould-made papers produced over the years. All it is is a cold pressed cotton paper with an emulsion that has neither matting agents nor various additives to improve gloss - what you're largely seeing is the natural sheen of the gelatin.
Didn't look like the natural sheen of gelatin to me.

Duolab123
16-Jan-2019, 17:58
It's not bizarre at all - at least not compared to the horribly cheesy baryta coated impersonations of mould-made papers produced over the years. All it is is a cold pressed cotton paper with an emulsion that has neither matting agents nor various additives to improve gloss - what you're largely seeing is the natural sheen of the gelatin.

I don't know what it is, but it's too much for me. If I recall salt prints are sometimes lightly waxed. I love the paper. It's just a bit too "brilliant " for me. It feels amazing to the touch.

Duolab123
16-Jan-2019, 18:12
I just Googled it. I remembered some of it. Beeswax and Oil of Lavender, used for waxing salt prints. We have a friend, an Art professor, who studied salt printing at GEM in Rochester. I remember the delicate aroma of the Lavender on her work. That makes me smile all by itself. The Bumble Bees love Lavender. Win-Win :o

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 15:58
Oh hi, Duolab. Yes, I've visited that site from time to time for the wide variety of processes it describes. There were several dye-destruction processes at one time. They list a temporary product of Ilford. But that was apparently briefly parallel to the more serious attempts to modernize Gasparcolor already ongoing in Germany, which was the actual pedigree of Cibachrome. But I should probably lay low for awhile, cause this kinda derailed the primary thread. I have to get my courage back up to start seriously printing my own personal modernization of the old Eastman Wash-Off Relief Process. So far all the little ducks are nicely in a row; but I'm stuck trying to get caught up with a lot of drymounting, plus just plain having fun doing lots of black and white printing. But concerning another tweak to this thread, I remember seriously locking horns with a print dealer who was selling off some of the most valuable salt prints in existence - historic early pre-emulsion work. He listened to the wrong so-called conservator; and after they were already sold, within six months they had all faded into nonexistence. He got sued to bits - bankrupted. He should have experimented with something worthless first... Hmmm (or Bzzzz)... lavendar oil ... I should hand a bottle of that to my backpacking companions in the summer; that way, all the mosquitos, biting flies, and especially sweat bees would be attracted to them instead of me!

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2019, 21:35
Until the War was completely over, the Brits and Germans weren't exactly on good terms with one another, to put it mildly. So that big elephant in the room has to be kept in mind when discussing hypothetical product development cooperation during that general season. Switzerland was neutral; but they were obviously hemmed in and had to juggle their relationship with Germany very carefully. It would be fun to study the history of all this in more detail, while a few people might still be alive who were directly involved; but I've already got too many fish to fry. But I can't complain. I had a good run with Cibachrome, even with its significant idiosyncrasies.

Duolab123
21-Jan-2019, 23:21
So do you think beeswax and Lavender oil would be ok to apply to DW paper?

otto.f
21-Jan-2019, 23:28
Perfect white artglas to frame your photo in is at least as important and for me more important than a new inktjet paper

bob carnie
22-Jan-2019, 07:58
Perfect white artglas to frame your photo in is at least as important and for me more important than a new inktjet paper

A few years back I heard of a glass that could be sprayed on for protection.... Apparently some of the uses were for trains.... never heard a word again , but at the time I thought what a brilliant idea... much like pro texture
of the CPrint days but very non aggressive to the paper print below.

anyone heard of this or am I crazy??

Pere Casals
22-Jan-2019, 08:25
Perfect white artglas to frame your photo in is at least as important and for me more important than a new inktjet paper

There are other choices, one is True Vue type anti-reflective glass, of the cheap Non-Glare acrylic / plexiglass

Drew Wiley
23-Jan-2019, 15:38
Of course you're crazy, Bob. But we love you anyway. Metasilicates bond to all kinds of things, especially things you don't want them to. Kinda like curing the common cold via bubonic plague in this case.

Tin Can
23-Jan-2019, 15:45
Actually we are all crazy here...




Of course you're crazy, Bob. But we love you anyway. Metasilicates bond to all kinds of things, especially things you don't want them to. Kinda like curing the common cold via bubonic plague in this case.

Duolab123
23-Jan-2019, 16:32
Crazy Good!!

Drew Wiley
23-Jan-2019, 17:51
Well, in this day and age, there is very little difference between a straightjacket and a darkcloth with Velcro.