HMI or strobe for wetplate/paper negs/low iso

[cdavis324]

I'm going to be working on a portrait project with film that has an effective iso around 1/2-1(so in the range of paper negs and wetplate) and wondering about using hmi's. I'd like to have a little movement posibility in the photos, but want to be able to shoot around 1/2-2 sec. I've come across some used 575 hmi par's that are relatively affordable and wondering if they'll be enough - probably shot through a piece of diffusion or two and placed as close to the subject as is safe.

Is there anyone working this way? Or is it best to give up the continuous dream, and just use strobe? [emoji6]

Thanks!

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[Christopher Barrett]

I used to own a couple Joker 800s. They didn't give me anywhere near the firepower of strobe.

[cdavis324]

I used to own a couple Joker 800s. They didn't give me anywhere near the firepower of strobe.Even with an exposure of a couple seconds? And fairly close working distances?

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[Bob Salomon]

Unless you want very small pupils, sweating subjects and high electric bills from both the current draw and the air conditioning, use studio strobes. Your sitters will thank you for it.

I used Desisti and strobes. Strobes are better for portraits. HmI is nice to light a news studio for broadcast.

[jnantz]

i'd ditch the strobes get smith victor lights continuous
not as hot as hot lights used to be and use them together with
available light ... you can shoot portraits using time as your friend.
as far as i am concerned fast shutter speeds are the enemy of portraits ...
unless you are doing editorial and newspaper work.
ymmv
good luck !

[Bob Salomon]

i'd ditch the strobes get smith victor lights continuous
not as hot as hot lights used to be and use them together with
available light ... you can shoot portraits using time as your friend.
as far as i am concerned fast shutter speeds are the enemy of portraits ...
unless you are doing editorial and newspaper work.
ymmv
good luck !

Mixing daylight and hot lights of different K will lead to all kinds of problems!

[Peter De Smidt]

Just use strobe.

[Two23]

What film is ISO 001?


Kent in SD

[cdavis324]

What film is ISO 001?


Kent in SDNone that I know of... Effective iso is what I said! So after filters, bellows, etc.

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[jnantz]

Mixing daylight and hot lights of different K will lead to all kinds of problems!


I have never had a problem with an excess of Blue Light

[cdavis324]

as far as i am concerned fast shutter speeds are the enemy of portraits ... !

Curious what you mean by the above quote... Especially considering most portraits use flash these days. Btw, I agree with the statement a bit, but wondering your reasoning.

What shutter speeds do you usually shoot at?

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[Bob Salomon]

i'd ditch the strobes get smith victor lights continuous
not as hot as hot lights used to be and use them together with
available light ... you can shoot portraits using time as your friend.
as far as i am concerned fast shutter speeds are the enemy of portraits ...
unless you are doing editorial and newspaper work.
ymmv
good luck !

Nonsense!
If you know what you are doing shutter speeds let you control the ratio between ambient light and whatever light you are throwing onto the scene or subject.
You need to experience what this control can do!

[cdavis324]

Nonsense!
If you know what you are doing shutter speeds let you control the ratio between ambient light and whatever light you are throwing onto the scene or subject.
You need to experience what this control can do!I think you're talking more about the commercial world where results are all that matters - i think what he's getting at is a more philosophical approach... At least that's what I'm reading.


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[Peter De Smidt]

The issue is that in order to get enough light under those circumstances, you're sitter will have to be very still, or the lights will be so bright as to be blinding. Strobes would be easier on your subject, especially if you have a lot of ambient light to close down their pupils.

[Bob Salomon]

I think you're talking more about the commercial world where results are all that matters - i think what he's getting at is a more philosophical approach... At least that's what I'm reading.


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No, higher shutter speeds give you darker backgrounds, slower shutter speeds give you lighter backgrounds then the lit subject. Used this way in portraits, weddings, receptions, still life, etc.

[Jac@stafford.net]

If you are confident of exposure, there is no brighter source than a flashbulb.

[cdavis324]

:cool: That's all they need to wear!

In all seriousness, I do see what you're saying and there is a reason strobes are so ubiquitous - I'm just wondering if anyone is doing it differently... and if they have any tips.

In terms of philosophy, I'm trying to get away from stealing photographs(which is all too easy when all you need is an instant) to working with the subject to create something. It would require buy in from the subject, as they need to hold still for the exposure... There's also the motion aspect - I want a little movement(but not too much) if possible...

[Bob Salomon]

:cool: That's all they need to wear!

In all seriousness, I do see what you're saying and there is a reason strobes are so ubiquitous - I'm just wondering if anyone is doing it differently... and if they have any tips.

In terms of philosophy, I'm trying to get away from stealing photographs(which is all too easy when all you need is an instant) to working with the subject to create something. It would require buy in from the subject, as they need to hold still for the exposure... There's also the motion aspect - I want a little movement(but not too much) if possible...

And the contracted pupils and sweat.

[jnantz]

Nonsense!
If you know what you are doing shutter speeds let you control the ratio between ambient light and whatever light you are throwing onto the scene or subject.
You need to experience what this control can do!

it has nothing to do with control and ratios between ambient light and other light sources and yes
having done commercial assignment work since the 80s i am well versed in that, but its fake/ an illusion like everything else.


Curious what you mean by the above quote... Especially considering most portraits use flash these days. Btw, I agree with the statement a bit, but wondering your reasoning.

What shutter speeds do you usually shoot at?

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hi cdavis324

when i make a portrait or use a camera
that i can control the shutter speed, i do my best to
make long exposures rather than short ones. IDK... i find
strobe+flashbulb work, instantaneous images &c to be just a veneer
not really what i want to photograph.
i'd rather show things breathing ..
if you poke around newtonian physics a little bit
you know that every object is in motion
i'd rather show things as they are .. alive, in motion, not static
some love it, but to me static/instantaneous,
like sharp modern lenses its all too clinical ...
with regards the the exact shutter speed
it depends sometimes i count to 4 or 10 slowly and sometimes a little faster.
( i've taken 45 second portraits before ) sorry if i skirted your question ...
my advice with your slow film / paper or whatever you are using
is still available light wide open or 1-2 stops closed down
( or if you have a junque f 5.6 / 6 RR put it on ) and a (softboxed )
hot light fill if you need it, bulb/time and count to 5-6... bracket a little bit to get used to it...
then use a slow working developer like caffenolc with a splash of print developer in it
and see how you like your negatives
you might like life in the slow lane.. i try to take backroads as much as i can

good luck !
john

ps my post was not to slight anyone who likes instantaneous portraits/photography,
sharp modern lenses, fresh film and d76 &c &c. i hope people who do that sort of thing
have a blast, and enjoy themselves to the fullest
and it helps them get to where they want to be at...
(YMMV )

[Bob Salomon]

it has nothing to do with control and ratios between ambient light and other light sources and yes
having done commercial assignment work since the 80s i am well versed in that, but its fake/ an illusion like everything else.

Are you nuts?

Basing an exposure with supplemental lighting to properly expose the subject and the background is not fake or an illusion. Nor is basing the exposure so the background goes darker or lighter then the subject fake or an illusion. It is control!

hi cdavis324

when i make a portrait or use a camera
that i can control the shutter speed, i do my best to
make long exposures rather than short ones. IDK... i find
strobe+flashbulb work, instantaneous images &c to be just a veneer
not really what i want to photograph.
i'd rather show things breathing ..
if you poke around newtonian physics a little bit
you know that every object is in motion
i'd rather show things as they are .. alive, in motion, not static
some love it, but to me static/instantaneous,
like sharp modern lenses its all too clinical ...
with regards the the exact shutter speed
it depends sometimes i count to 4 or 10 slowly and sometimes a little faster.
( i've taken 45 second portraits before ) sorry if i skirted your question ...
my advice with your slow film / paper or whatever you are using
is still available light wide open or 1-2 stops closed down
( or if you have a junque f 5.6 / 6 RR put it on ) and a (softboxed )
hot light fill if you need it, bulb/time and count to 5-6... bracket a little bit to get used to it...
then use a slow working developer like caffenolc with a splash of print developer in it
and see how you like your negatives
you might like life in the slow lane.. i try to take backroads as much as i can

good luck !
john

ps my post was not to slight anyone who likes instantaneous portraits/photography,
sharp modern lenses, fresh film and d76 &c &c. i hope people who do that sort of thing
have a blast, and enjoy themselves to the fullest
and it helps them get to where they want to be at...
(YMMV )

[jnantz]

Are you nuts?

Basing an exposure with supplemental lighting to properly expose the subject and the background is not fake or an illusion. Nor is basing the exposure so the background goes darker or lighter then the subject fake or an illusion. It is control!


i could ask the same of you LOL !
i guess a veneer / instantaneous sliver of time
doesn't look fake to you,
but to me, it looks about as fake as it gets

yes, its ALL an illusion, made up, staging, direction, misdirection, theatre, manipulated &c

have a great day !

[williaty]

i could ask the same of you LOL !
i guess a veneer / instantaneous sliver of time
doesn't look fake to you,
but to me, it looks about as fake as it gets

yes, its ALL an illusion, made up, staging, direction, misdirection, theatre, manipulated &c

have a great day !

Your slow exposure is just as much made of lies and a complete fake as a shot made with strobes and nothing else. You're barking up the wrong semantic tree.

[Graeme Hamilton]

In reference to original question, I am wondering how the color shift during warm up would effect wet plate. As I understand it, wet plate has extended UV sensitivity, and it occurs to me that there might be a duration during the warm up curve that not as much UV light is being emitted. This isn’t really a problem, just a consideration as the HMIs I worked with in college could take anywhere from a couple of minutes to 20 minutes to fully warm up in the visible spectrum. I wonder what the experience would be like if I could see on UV, does the UV out put warm up at the same rate? Perhaps someone here has experience using HMIs with wet plate? I think that’s what the OP is looking for.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Answer: flash bulbs.
.

[williaty]

In reference to original question, I am wondering how the color shift during warm up would effect wet plate. As I understand it, wet plate has extended UV sensitivity, and it occurs to me that there might be a duration during the warm up curve that not as much UV light is being emitted. This isn’t really a problem, just a consideration as the HMIs I worked with in college could take anywhere from a couple of minutes to 20 minutes to fully warm up in the visible spectrum. I wonder what the experience would be like if I could see on UV, does the UV out put warm up at the same rate? Perhaps someone here has experience using HMIs with wet plate? I think that’s what the OP is looking for.

The amount of UV sensitivity wet plate has depends on the salts you use but the UV response is never what I would call significant. It's a common misconception. If you look at the work Lund has done to quantify the spectral response of collodion, you'll see that all the salts (iodides, bromides, lithides) produce mostly violet sensitivity. Depending on the salts used, some combos have violet plus blue and a bit of green sensitivity and some combos had violet response plus a VERY VERY near UV and a touch of blue. None had extended UV response. I suspect that the myth that collodion is mostly UV-sensitive arose because the printing methods that go along with wet plate negatives are UV-only and, being massively orthochromatic, wet plate such a "different than normal" look to it that people assume or are willing to believe that it sees only UV.

FWIW, I am using modern strobes to shoot my plates and they turn out well:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7872/45852459704_cc903c0709_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cRPQN5)
20181230-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cRPQN5) by Ty Williams (https://www.flickr.com/photos/35468151137@N01/), on Flickr

[joem]

Nice going Ty you've captured the subject as she gives something of herself to you. i've found the prior techno BS entertaining but this at least i think is the proper end result regardless of how you got there.

j

[jnantz]

Nice going Ty you've captured the subject as she gives something of herself to you. i've found the prior techno BS entertaining but this at least i think is the proper end result regardless of how you got there.

j


true, but 99% of photography is techno BS
most of the commentary on photography websites
is gear and tech related, not sure how anyone
can escape the 99%

OP best of luck with your project!

[cdavis324]

true, but 99% of photography is techno BS
most of the commentary on photography websites
is gear and tech related, not sure how anyone
can escape the 99%

OP best of luck with your project!Thanks! And appreciate you sharing your experience with shooting continuous light... I understand that stobe is what's usually used, but am interested in experiences of others who have used hmi's or other continuous light at high power and low shutter speeds.

And I'm pretty well versed in strobes and what they can do, so to reiterate interested in continuous! Or comparisons to strobe at the least!



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[aluncrockford]

I suppose the best point of reference would be to cast back to the work done in the 1860's to 90's Where they was no strobe and slow film, the solution daylight, plenty of it, using blinds to shape the light. Hence the style of portraiture which was informed by the shutterspeeds. That and the fact the sitter has to keep still when you are using large format.

I would suggest that plan A would be to use daylight plan B go for HMI, the problem with hot lights is the wavelenght of the light. If it helps I have been using ilford gallerie gr 2 paper negs rated at 6 ISO deved in rodinol and they work perfectly. Shooting with both strobe and daylight I found the most consistant resuts were on strobe, which is to be expected though the quality of diffused daylight produced a better tonal range which was a lot easier to print.





Thanks! And appreciate you sharing your experience with shooting continuous light... I understand that stobe is what's usually used, but am interested in experiences of others who have used hmi's or other continuous light at high power and low shutter speeds.

And I'm pretty well versed in strobes and what they can do, so to reiterate interested in continuous! Or comparisons to strobe at the least!



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[Tin Can]

Why not try a combination?

Strobe and continuous light with a long shutter

[cdavis324]

Why not try a combination?

Strobe and continuous light with a long shutterI've been thinking about that... I've done a few tests with just a couple continuous lights and my exposures are in the 2-8sec range. Adding strobe will give me the sharp/soft look I'm going for while making sure the exposure is enough.

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[cdavis324]

I suppose the best point of reference would be to cast back to the work done in the 1860's to 90's Where they was no strobe and slow film, the solution daylight, plenty of it, using blinds to shape the light. Hence the style of portraiture which was informed by the shutterspeeds. That and the fact the sitter has to keep still when you are using large format.

I would suggest that plan A would be to use daylight plan B go for HMI, the problem with hot lights is the wavelenght of the light. If it helps I have been using ilford gallerie gr 2 paper negs rated at 6 ISO deved in rodinol and they work perfectly. Shooting with both strobe and daylight I found the most consistant resuts were on strobe, which is to be expected though the quality of diffused daylight produced a better tonal range which was a lot easier to print.Curious about how daylight gave a better tonal range - can you talk about that a bit? I've found that i get more density with flash(when it's the same ev)...

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[mvanderaa]

I've used both strobes and tungsten hotlights (fresnel) for my portraits. IMHO, strobes offer the greatest amount of flexibility. And remember, you can still soften an image with strobes. Just drag the shutter to pickup as much ambient if you want. No ambient? Remember most professional strobes have a modeling light. Therefore you could shoot with a strobe at 1 sec. shutter and pickup the modeling light after the strobe. One more vote for strobes.

[jnantz]

Your slow exposure is just as much made of lies and a complete fake as a shot made with strobes and nothing else. You're barking up the wrong semantic tree.


thanks for requoting me !
as you can see, I never said it wasn't...

yes, its ALL an illusion made up, staging, direction, misdirection, theatre, manipulation &c.

I also said instantaneous photographs look more fake to me than a long exposure.

Not sure what it has to do with semantics, it's my opinion.

nice portrait btw !

[Neal Chaves]

If you are confident of exposure, there is no brighter source than a flashbulb.

I used bulbs when they were inexpensive and electronic flash cost $1 per WS. Now you can buy a nice 2000WS Norman P2000D used for $200, 10 cents a WS. I measured the output of a Press 25 bulb as equal to 1200 WS from my electronic flash and the big screw type, 5Bs I think they were, were very powerful. You can measure the output of flash bulbs with a corded flash meter set to the shutter speed you intend to use. Now flash bulbs are very expensive and vintage but very usable electronic flash is inexpensive.

[Bob Salomon]

I used bulbs when they were inexpensive and electronic flash cost $1 per WS. Now you can buy a nice 2000WS Norman P2000D used for $200, 10 cents a WS. I measured the output of a Press 25 bulb as equal to 1200 WS from my electronic flash and the big screw type, 5Bs I think they were, were very powerful. You can measure the output of flash bulbs with a corded flash meter set to the shutter speed you intend to use. Now flash bulbs are very expensive and vintage but very usable electronic flash is inexpensive.

5 and 25 were bayonet bulbs, B meant daylight.

You could only accurately compare outputs if the reflectors cover the same angle of illumination, and WS or Joules aren’t output.

[Neal Chaves]

5 and 25 were bayonet bulbs, B meant daylight.

You could only accurately compare outputs if the reflectors cover the same angle of illumination, and WS or Joules aren’t output.

What were those big ones with the household screw base and filled with foil? When I worked on the Pacific Missile Range we had cases of them. The Navy photographers would put them in the light fixtures of a guy's room in the barracks and when he came back drunk from the club and flipped the switch he'd think we had been nuked.

[Bob Salomon]

What were those big ones with the household screw base and filled with foil? When I worked on the Pacific Missile Range we had cases of them. The Navy photographers would put them in the light fixtures of a guy's room in the barracks and when he came back drunk from the club and flipped the switch he'd think we had been nuked.

I never used them but 2 from Sylvania or 50 were 2 of the Edison screw base bulbs.

[Neal Chaves]

I never used them but 2 from Sylvania or 50 were 2 of the Edison screw base bulbs.

That's right, they were 2 and 2B types. They would also stick into a Graflex three cell flash when the bayonet socket/reflector mount was removed from the top. Those bulbs were used to photograph large groups in banquet halls by replacing some room light bulbs and flipping the switch when the shutter was opened briefly.