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View Full Version : Outfitting new Chamonix: lens and film holders



Laminarman
1-Jan-2019, 13:11
So I got a reply from Hugo and will be ordering my camera soon (F2 with red universal bellows). He is out of film holders for 2-3 months so will any 4x5 film holder work? I try avoid ebay, but any brands better than others or anything to look out for? Also, have read the lens section on here, would like to start with a 90mm for landscapes and can settle for an f/8 as size/weight are important and I don't imagine doing low light stuff for a long while given the long learning curve. I see a lot of rough looking lenses for under $200, but would like to go up to $350 give or take. Not looking for specific recommendations as much as what NOT to buy. If anyone thinks the learning is much easier with a normal 150 I would like to hear that as well. Happy New Year.

scheinfluger_77
1-Jan-2019, 13:47
I think any modern film holder will work, but stay away from the Graflex type. These are the ones with a shorter (I call it the ‘head’) at the top with the slide and locks. Fidelity and Lisco type have that extra 1/4” length with a spot for a note and as they are longer it is easier to manipulate them in your camera. The Graflex type will probably work too but they can be in great to awful shape that is not easily visible in a photo.

As for a lens, choose anything within the 90 to 210 range and practice with that. It’s less about the specifics of the lens and more about your learning. I understand your hesitation about ebay but you can do well if you are patient and discerning in who you deal with. Stay away from sellers with less than a 99.0 rating (~99.5 would be even better). Ask questions, interact with the seller and discern where their attitudes lay by their writing. Read the feedback given to them. You shouldn’t have to spend $350 (unless you just want to). In the last year or so I’ve purchased 3 Fujinon W 180/5.6 lenses, two of which are pristine for “used” lenses. I spent an average of $110 each including shipping. Just be patient and watch..

otto.f
1-Jan-2019, 14:28
Any film holder from fidelity or lisco will work for sure.
A 90 is a bit more difficult than a 150 because it has of course more oblique lines as a wide angle and this is more critical when making the right swings and tilts if you want to correct them. But of course this is exactly what you want to learn with your view camera. A 150 is more versatile but in the end you want both anyway. So it depends mostly on what your subject is.

Laminarman
1-Jan-2019, 14:30
I think any modern film holder will work, but stay away from the Graflex type. These are the ones with a shorter (I call it the ‘head’) at the top with the slide and locks. Fidelity and Lisco type have that extra 1/4” length with a spot for a note and as they are longer it is easier to manipulate them in your camera. The Graflex type will probably work too but they can be in great to awful shape that is not easily visible in a photo.

As for a lens, choose anything within the 90 to 210 range and practice with that. It’s less about the specifics of the lens and more about your learning. I understand your hesitation about ebay but you can do well if you are patient and discerning in who you deal with. Stay away from sellers with less than a 99.0 rating (~99.5 would be even better). Ask questions, interact with the seller and discern where their attitudes lay by their writing. Read the feedback given to them. You shouldn’t have to spend $350 (unless you just want to). In the last year or so I’ve purchased 3 Fujinon W 180/5.6 lenses, two of which are pristine for “used” lenses. I spent an average of $110 each including shipping. Just be patient and watch..

Thank you Steve. I didn't really have a clue how much I had to spend. I saw some used lenses for cheap, some up near $800 then figured, "Heck, I'll just buy new." Well that isn't happening, they're many thousands of dollars. What the heck. My luck I buy the camera and everyone stops making film.

scheinfluger_77
1-Jan-2019, 14:37
There are lots of lenses at those prices but a little investigation will reveal that with small exception they are not actually selling at those prices. Their are lots of knowledgeable members here who can give you better advice than I can, Jim Galli is one of them.

peter schrager
1-Jan-2019, 15:15
Buy a used 210mm and ho from there
The Japanese sellers on ebay are usually outstanding

Tin Can
1-Jan-2019, 15:24
Film production and sales are increasing.

Don't worry about film availability.

But nobody is making shutters...


Thank you Steve. I didn't really have a clue how much I had to spend. I saw some used lenses for cheap, some up near $800 then figured, "Heck, I'll just buy new." Well that isn't happening, they're many thousands of dollars. What the heck. My luck I buy the camera and everyone stops making film.

rohanbassett
1-Jan-2019, 16:41
Lens choice can be more personal preference than anything else and — even if you have experience shooting smaller formats — you probably won’t know which lenses suit you most on LF until you try.

That said I second the recommendation for a 210. When I was getting into LF they were the cheapest lenses available and it’s a more versatile focal length than you may think (especially if you plan to shoot any portraits).

Everyone else is talking 90 and 150 but don’t pass up a 135 if you come across one in the right price and condition.

Greg
1-Jan-2019, 17:02
For my Chamonix cameras larger than 4x5, I use OEM Chamonix holders, and absolutely love them. Bit of an investment, as I bought them new from Hugo, but never once regretted acquiring my Chamonix OEM brand holders after using them. For my 4x5 Chamonix and Sinar cameras prefer TOYO holders... no real reason except I grew up with using plastic 4x5 film holders. Only advice to pass on is that to make sure the dark slide is the one that came with the holder, ie same brand name. Twice many years ago purchased 8x10 holders that came with non-matching (mfg. brand) dark slides, and they never worked smoothly and was very frustrating using them in the field. In both cases the dark slides were all metal.

As far as lenses go, I'd stay away from the vintage classics such as Dagors, Protars, etc. Unless you really know what you're doing, you can end up with lenses that are far inferior to Funinons, Schneiders, Nikkors etc. Caltars are great starters, and lot of times they will end up being keepers. Should be quite easy for you to get various different opinions on lenses from different members of the FORUM.

As for your 4x5 Chamonix, beware of off brand or generic "Linhof style" lensboards that will not work with your camera. Do a search on the FORUM, there are plenty of posts covering this subject.

rohanbassett
1-Jan-2019, 17:15
Also: if the lenses don’t come with lensboards attached and you need to buy and install them separately, I’d highly recommend picking up a lens wrench to save yourself some frustration. They look like credit cards with notches on each side.

Laminarman
1-Jan-2019, 17:17
Thank you everyone. All great information and much appreciated!

Two23
1-Jan-2019, 23:10
The Lisco or Fidelity holders will work fine. As for lenses, I have a Nikon 90mm f4.5 (BIG!) that I like a lot, but I also own lenses from Fuji, Rodenstocka and of course Schneider. Anything from those four companies will be great. Caltar is worth a look too as their lenses are mostly rebadged Rodenstocks. You do want a Copal shutter. You might not yet know what that is, but trust me on this. Finally, all my large format gear has either come from buy/sell board here or ebay. I've not had any problems in the nearly 25 years I've been buying things.

One final thought. When you start buying lenses, have a plan. Think of completing a system. My original lens group was 90/180/300. A 90/150/250 would work well too. I've ended up adding a 135mm Rodenstock to my little group too, as I found I use that focal length quite a bit--more than 90mm actually. I find I shoot different things or shoot differently with 4x5 than I did with 35mm or even 645.


Kent in SD

Larry Gebhardt
2-Jan-2019, 05:47
Lens choice is personal. Like Kent above I would however recommend you choose your first lens based on a plan of how it will fit into a set of lenses. For example I like each lens to be about 50% longer than the previous. So 90, 135, 200/210, 300 for example (which is what I carry most). I based that set on 135mm being my favorite focal length as well as fitting well with the smaller 200 and 300mm Nikon M lenses. Note there's nothing magical about my 50% spacing preference. For a first lens I would say starting with a lens longer than a 90mm has advantages as they are easier to focus and see the effect of movements.

Laminarman
2-Jan-2019, 07:48
Thank you Kent and Gary. I had planned on doing 90/135(or 150) and 200, starting with the 90 since the vast majority of what I'll be doing is landscape, perhaps some "cityscapes" of run down old factories around town. I leaned towards the 90 first as I assumed it would be most versatile but if the learning is easier on the 135 or 150 I have no problem starting there at all.

Peter Lewin
2-Jan-2019, 08:33
One "first lens" suggestion that has always made sense to me is to start with the LF equivalent of whatever lens you use the most in your current format. You can find a simple equivalence chart, and accompanying discussion, here: http://www.toyoview.com/LensSelection/lensselect.html. For example, a 90mm lens in 4x5 is roughly the same as a 28mm in 35mm. Personally, my 150 (roughly a 45mm in 35mm terms) is my go-to lens for most things outside (i.e. landscapes, etc.) while indoors I mostly use my 80mm. The point is that rather than pick a starting lens sort of "at random," use the knowledge you already have in other formats to guide you. (But must admit that after something like 50 years of using a 4x5, my full collection of lenses is 80, 120, 150, 180, 210, 300.)

Laminarman
2-Jan-2019, 09:13
One "first lens" suggestion that has always made sense to me is to start with the LF equivalent of whatever lens you use the most in your current format. You can find a simple equivalence chart, and accompanying discussion, here: http://www.toyoview.com/LensSelection/lensselect.html. For example, a 90mm lens in 4x5 is roughly the same as a 28mm in 35mm. Personally, my 150 (roughly a 45mm in 35mm terms) is my go-to lens for most things outside (i.e. landscapes, etc.) while indoors I mostly use my 80mm. The point is that rather than pick a starting lens sort of "at random," use the knowledge you already have in other formats to guide you. (But must admit that after something like 50 years of using a 4x5, my full collection of lenses is 80, 120, 150, 180, 210, 300.)

Thank you Peter. My lens of choice (most used) for most of my shooting is a Sigma Art 35mm on my Nikon D810 which is why I chose the 90. I also will use the Sigma Art 20mm if I need to go wider but I would say the 35 is about 70% of what I shoot.

Jim Noel
2-Jan-2019, 10:22
I think any modern film holder will work, but stay away from the Graflex type. These are the ones with a shorter (I call it the ‘head’) at the top with the slide and locks. Fidelity and Lisco type have that extra 1/4” length with a spot for a note and as they are longer it is easier to manipulate them in your camera. The Graflex type will probably work too but they can be in great to awful shape that is not easily visible in a photo.

As for a lens, choose anything within the 90 to 210 range and practice with that. It’s less about the specifics of the lens and more about your learning. I understand your hesitation about ebay but you can do well if you are patient and discerning in who you deal with. Stay away from sellers with less than a 99.0 rating (~99.5 would be even better). Ask questions, interact with the seller and discern where their attitudes lay by their writing. Read the feedback given to them. You shouldn’t have to spend $350 (unless you just want to). In the last year or so I’ve purchased 3 Fujinon W 180/5.6 lenses, two of which are pristine for “used” lenses. I spent an average of $110 each including shipping. Just be patient and watch..

Graflex holders have a slot,not a ridge, for light trap. They will not work. Graphic holders will work well.

William Whitaker
2-Jan-2019, 11:07
My luck I buy the camera and everyone stops making film.

Too late. Already happened.

William Whitaker
2-Jan-2019, 11:17
My first LF lens was a 210mm f/5.6 Nikkor-W which I bought new from B&H. As a beginner I was very nervous about buying used. That was understandable. But I passed up an 8 3/4" Dagor in the meantime and that would have been a fine lens. But the security of buying a new lens was undeniable. There's just something reassuring about fresh silica gel packets!

My takeaway from that episode is just this: If you buy from a reputable seller, then there is no real reason to pay the premium of buying a factory-sealed new lens.
Yes, Ebay can be daunting. But over the last 20 years if it weren't for Ebay, I would never have been able to find and own some pretty amazing stuff. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes... Well, sometimes you don't.

There are some very reputable sellers on Ebay. But sometimes it's hard to tell just who the players are. And there are some very reputable stores. I won't name names here for fear of slighting someone else. But keep an open mind and enjoy the ride!

Laminarman
2-Jan-2019, 11:20
Too late. Already happened.

Sure not a lot of choices if all you want is Kodak or Fuji. Does anyone shoot anything "different" and get good BW landscape results. Arista, Berrger, Foma..etc?

Peter Lewin
2-Jan-2019, 12:17
There is a lot to be said for picking one film, and sticking with it until you are really comfortable, it just eliminates more variables. I standardize on Ilford HP5+ across all formats, with an EI of 200. Many others on this site prefer the slower but finer-grained Ilford FP-4. I like to support Ilford, who continue to manufacture all the chemicals and papers we need to keep our darkrooms going. I know that there are Forum members who can comment on Arista, Foma (more common) and Berrger (from what I have heard, a good but pricier and harder to find, option).

Doremus Scudder
2-Jan-2019, 12:37
90mm is fine to start with if you want to shoot that wide. You're going to add lenses to your kit anyway later. The next lens could easily be a 135 or 150mm; they're plentiful and cheap. FWIW, 135mm and 90mm seem to be the focal lengths I use most (in that order).

Used Lisco or Fidelity filmholders are plentiful as well. Be patient till you find a batch for around $5-$6 each and buy that. Then test for light tightness with photo paper (cut paper to size, load holders, place holders in bright sun for a while, both sides, then load the holder in the camera, pull the darkslide and let it sit for a while with the sun shining on the light trap area, flip holder, repeat, then develop the paper; if it's all white, you're good to go!). I have 60-70 used holders of various brands that I've bought over the years from eBay, etc. and only one or two have been bad. Just look for ones in good physical condition.

Do get a lens wrench as suggested above. If you can find lenses for sale already mounted on Technika-style boards, you save yourself the expense and trouble of buying a board and mounting the lens.

Best,

Doremus

Laminarman
2-Jan-2019, 12:38
There is a lot to be said for picking one film, and sticking with it until you are really comfortable, it just eliminates more variables. I standardize on Ilford HP5+ across all formats, with an EI of 200. Many others on this site prefer the slower but finer-grained Ilford FP-4. I like to support Ilford, who continue to manufacture all the chemicals and papers we need to keep our darkrooms going. I know that there are Forum members who can comment on Arista, Foma (more common) and Berrger (from what I have heard, a good but pricier and harder to find, option).

I agree with that too Peter. I'm sitting on a stash of 120 Acros which I must have just gotten the last of. I had no idea it was discontinued so now will learn something about that film only to not have access to it. Bummer. I do shoot FP4 in my Hasselblad and enjoy that but will probably start with HP5 in 4x5.

Two23
2-Jan-2019, 12:48
Sure not a lot of choices if all you want is Kodak or Fuji. Does anyone shoot anything "different" and get good BW landscape results. Arista, Berrger, Foma..etc?

Ilford FP4 is excellent. I use Ilford HP5 when I need a faster film. Ilford is 90% of the film I've been using for the past 10 years.


Kent in SD

Nodda Duma
2-Jan-2019, 13:43
Sure not a lot of choices if all you want is Kodak or Fuji. Does anyone shoot anything "different" and get good BW landscape results. Arista, Berrger, Foma..etc?

I shoot dry plate. Just to be different.

rohanbassett
2-Jan-2019, 16:03
I agree with that too Peter. I'm sitting on a stash of 120 Acros which I must have just gotten the last of. I had no idea it was discontinued so now will learn something about that film only to not have access to it. Bummer. I do shoot FP4 in my Hasselblad and enjoy that but will probably start with HP5 in 4x5.
Acros has two main strengths: tiny grain, and no reciprocity failure till 120 seconds. If memory serves, you don't plan to shoot much 4x5 at night, so I wouldn't worry about what you're missing out on — Acros is perfectly suited as a 120 film and the grain is still imperceptible. Enjoy the Acros you have!

Larry Gebhardt
2-Jan-2019, 16:03
If you do decide to go with a slower f/8 90mm I'd order the camera with the Fresnel lens. I prefer a plain ground glass in general, but even in normal daylight conditions seeing the corners with a 90 f/8 is difficult.

Laminarman
2-Jan-2019, 17:55
If you do decide to go with a slower f/8 90mm I'd order the camera with the Fresnel lens. I prefer a plain ground glass in general, but even in normal daylight conditions seeing the corners with a 90 f/8 is difficult.

I've only used the ground glass in the past (like 30 years ago in college). Does the Fresnel over over the GG or is used in place of it?

Larry Gebhardt
2-Jan-2019, 18:03
My understanding is the fresnel is usually under the ground glass and since it affects the light path it needs to be placed at a different position from the ground glass that's over it. This must mean you can't just add one after the fact. My Chamonix was one of the early models where the thickness was not correct and I removed the fresnel. Placed behind the GG it works, but is fragile so I have a sheet of mylar over that for protection. I think there are other focus screens that have the frosted image surface and the fresnel built together and just goes under clear glass for protection. I don't think that's what Chamonix is using. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong on any point.