Developed 4 sheets of HP5-400 had issues with pinholes

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Fresh developer across board, distilled water, fresh everything. Same image 4 times. Wanted to see differences in developer/method.

Sheet 1, Tmax developer 1:9, 14 min at 24C. Came out ok.

Sheet 2, Pyrocat HD 2:2:100, 10 min at 22C, white pinholes everywhere, fuzzy, bad

Sheet 3, Pyrocat 2-bath, 1:1:15 7 min in A, 7 min in B at 20C, fuzzy, black pinholes all over, plus white pinholes

Sheet 4, minimal agitation in Pyrocat HD at 20C,1:1:175, 60 min development, streaks in highlight areas (dark areas of neg), white pinholes in dark areas of neg and elsewhere, black pin holes all over as well.

All Pyro was fresh mixed from stock solution ordered from photographers formulary just a few months ago. First time I used Pyro from this batch I got pinholes but not bad. These 3 sheets developed with Pyro are really bad. Is it possible the Pyro stock solutions are just bad? I made sure we'll mixed prior.

The Tmax developer sheet looks good. The others would be good except for the fact they look like Swiss cheese.

SP-445 used to develop.

Here is the typical HP5-400 developed with Pyro. Same regardless of method.

2nd is Tmax developer, no pinholes.

All images are identical in capture, only difference is developer. My guess is the Pyro is bad.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I am kinda bummed by the pinholes on the minimal agitation image. I like the way the fire was rendered as you can see in the picture. Could have either had a bit stronger solution or developed for a while longer to habe further developes the shadows though. This exercise was to get a feel for the different techniques and developers. Once I figure pinhole and streaking out I will redo a set of images and redo this exercise. From here figure out what technique I prefer for a given scene. I definitely see potential for minimal agitation, then 2-bath and finall bleachin (which can be used with color negatives).

I may start buying pyro in powder form or mixing my own.

[Willie]

Mix the Pyrocat HD from scratch rather than getting if from Formulary. You will most likely get better results.
Hope you have better luck getting them to replace it/make good than some of us have had.

[esearing]

Pyro sounds bad to me. there should be a sticker on the bottle with the batch number. Send it to Bud and ask for mix date. If more than 4 years old it will start to degrade quickly. I am having better luck with the powder version from B&S so far.

With minimal agitation and pyro, presoak 5 mins and use a long initial gentle agitation for 2-3 minutes. water stop bath.

Pinholes if not dust are a mystery. Modern films should not have the problem from chemicals we use.

[peter schrager]

Before you blame the pyro its probably the sp445...maybe developer is not getting to the film
I have had similar issues with tray development my xtol negatives come out perfect..pyro may get a scratch or 2 but I only blame myself..good luck figuring it out

[bob carnie]

Personally I would advise just one developer process when you are first starting off. Learn how to make perfect negs first with experience you can test further... Just my 2 cents

We had a word to describe your results in the custom labs I worked at . This problem is defined as OE.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Not the SP. I have done this for a while. The Tmax ones were perfectly fine. But the pyro ones had the damage so it is the pyro. All from same night. I haven't had this before even with pyro. I will try to find out mix date and get powder from now on.

[Peter Lewin]

Steven: When you get the information on production dates, which will give an indication of shelf life, please post it, as well as whether yours was the Pyrocat in Glycol (longer shelf life) or Pyrocat in Water (shorter shelf life). Useful information for those like me who are using Pyrocat.

[Louis Pacilla]

Personally I would advise just one developer process when you are first starting off. Learn how to make perfect negs first with experience you can test further... Just my 2 cents

We had a word to describe your results in the custom labs I worked at . This problem is defined as OE.

+1

[Alan9940]

Steven, I have seen something similar (white specks) when I didn't mix the pyro formula completely--mostly, I've had this issue with 510-pyro which is a b***h to mix--leaving minute hard particles of one of the chemicals. You may or may not even be able to see this in the Pyrocat you have. That said, I'd highly recommend mixing your own, if you continue on with Pyrocat-HD. I mix mine in glycol and have never had an issue since I started mixing from scratch. If you decide to mix your own, make sure you follow careful procedures--respiratory mask, gloves, etc.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Steven: When you get the information on production dates, which will give an indication of shelf life, please post it, as well as whether yours was the Pyrocat in Glycol (longer shelf life) or Pyrocat in Water (shorter shelf life). Useful information for those like me who are using Pyrocat.

Will do. Here is a picture of the bottles I used this time. I am gonna go take some images today and run 1 thru this lot and then run thri a different lot I have that should be newer. Mine is the water form.

Both appear to be from same lot. The bottles with black caps are what I used. I will redo with black caps and then red caps. If I get same results from both red cap and black cap bottles batch is bad. If not and the smaller bottles (black caps) give same results while larger bottles (red caps) give acceptable results, the smaller bottles must have spoiled for some reason.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Steven, I have seen something similar (white specks) when I didn't mix the pyro formula completely--mostly, I've had this issue with 510-pyro which is a b***h to mix--leaving minute hard particles of one of the chemicals. You may or may not even be able to see this in the Pyrocat you have. That said, I'd highly recommend mixing your own, if you continue on with Pyrocat-HD. I mix mine in glycol and have never had an issue since I started mixing from scratch. If you decide to mix your own, make sure you follow careful procedures--respiratory mask, gloves, etc.

This is where I am headed.

I wonder if it would work better at a higher temp than 75F or lower temp?

[Doremus Scudder]

I'd agree that the problem is with the Pyrocat somehow. A couple of things to check with your "white spots" (which would be black on the negative...)

Check to see if the spot-causing areas are truly areas of increased density on the negative or if there are actual particles embedded in the emulsion. If there aren't any, then something is causing your film to develop extra density in the spot areas. Check your developer solutions carefully for suspended particulates, maybe pour some through some lab filter paper and see what remains. Also check for possible sources of contamination pre-development that could cause the problem.

I also think it's a good idea to check some test negatives in your old and new pyro and see if that makes a difference. If so, then you likely are simply a victim of developer failure/degradation.

Best,

Doremus

[Alan9940]

I wonder if it would work better at a higher temp than 75F or lower temp?

I've used Pyrocat-HD from 68F to 80F without issue.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I'd agree that the problem is with the Pyrocat somehow. A couple of things to check with your "white spots" (which would be black on the negative...)

Check to see if the spot-causing areas are truly areas of increased density on the negative or if there are actual particles embedded in the emulsion. If there aren't any, then something is causing your film to develop extra density in the spot areas. Check your developer solutions carefully for suspended particulates, maybe pour some through some lab filter paper and see what remains. Also check for possible sources of contamination pre-development that could cause the problem.

I also think it's a good idea to check some test negatives in your old and new pyro and see if that makes a difference. If so, then you likely are simply a victim of developer failure/degradation.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks for the info. I plan to shoot some identical images today and develop with both solutuons. I don't remember seeing any particles, but that doesn't mean they weren't there in the soultion. Will let everyone know what I find out.

[Peter Lewin]

FWIW, I remember a longish thread on Pyrocat shelf life, either here or on APUG, which suggested moving the Photographer's Formulary solutions to brown glass bottles, rather than the original plastic containers, because the impermeable glass slowed down oxidation. This would apply to home-mixed Pyrocat as well. (I re-bottle my developers into brown glass, but even with that, I recently had to throw out a batch of PMK where the "A" solution had oxidized.) In that discussion, the "bad" Pyrocat died rather suddenly, but the result was very thin negatives, nothing was mentioned about spotting.

[Tobias Key]

I used two batches of Tanol (a very similar developer) that showed the same symptoms. I use Xtol now and I am very happy with the results. I've decided life is too short for boutique developers.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Here is a shot of the pyrocat A Inused see the whit stuff? I tried heating up the solutuon but no luck. Second shot is from newest baych of pyro A. Pyro is bad.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

These might be in the glycol. Says packaged in glycol for longer shelf life. I thought I had purchased the water version.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

So I used the new batch of Pyrocat and got good development, but white dots in the dense parts. Mostly sky areas. The Pyrocat was perfectly clear. Literally I mean the white dots are only in the sky areas so what gives? I like the Pyrocat, but till I can tray process, I may give it up. Doesn't happen with Tmax developer.

There is no dust, etc on the film prior to exposure or developing, so what exactly causes tue white dots? If it is something about the pyrocat perhaps runningbit thru a syringe filter first might fix problem. I was thinking of getting a watman syringe filter and giving that a whirl. Would for sure remove any particle down to like flu size and smaller. If I still get white dots, then, I will go to tray. If I get there then I give up.

Also notice HP5 400 gets a weird horizontal crazing of sorts on the side opposite emulsion side. Doesn't happen with Tmax D100 or Acros.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

More updates.

Been trying to figure out why around the periphery, the emulsion was completely gone at discrete points using the sp-445. What I figured out by accident, is that, even though you do the stop bath, fix, hypoclear, and 10 min plus rinse, developer I think, remains throughout the process, and then completely removes the emulsion. I wouldn't think it has anything to do with photo flo or stop, fix and hypo. I matched up the spots to the tabs on the holders and noticed pooled liquid where the emulsion was missing, when I gently wiped area, the emulsion under the spot came off while the rest of the emulsion was fine everywhere else. This was after hanging to dry.

I am gonna try taco method in sp-445 for 1 sheet of film. I am not digging on the film holders lately. Ar first they worked like a charm, but lately just a pita.

Hopefully all my trials will help someone out when they first start out.

[Willie]

Have you contacted Formulary about the problems?
Let us know how they handle it.

[mrred]

I use my own catechol-based developer, and have a few comments.

The white spots are deposits left behind. With the amounts you get and the absence with other developers, it's likely the water quality. Some films are more susceptible with certain developers than others. The catechol is a tanner which hardens the film. You likely won't be able to clean these spots out. If you have these problems and you are using distilled water, this developer / film combo may not be a usable choice for you.

The balck spots are pinholes likely caused by a stop bath. I don't use any stop bath. Water works fine.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I use distilled water. I will try a water stop bath and see if that eliminates pin holes. How long do you use water as stop bath?

[Fred L]

I haven't used Pyrocat before (just PMK but getting some Pyrocat HD in glycol), but Ive never heard of any friends having this issue at all. I can only think, as some suggested, that it's related to the SPP and or water issues. if there was a bad batch from the Formulary, one would think it would have popped up here. good luck

[Alan9940]

FWIW, I've used the SP-445 with Pyrocat-HD, WD2D+, and 510-Pyro and, though I've had other issues with this developing tank, white spots ain't one of 'em.

[mrred]

30s to a minute. My developer is divided if you need to know that.

I usually use foma 100. In the past, I have had issues with it reacting with iron. Using distilled water cured that problem.

I don't ever remember having had a problem with HP5, but it's been a few years.

[Alan9940]

I use distilled water. I will try a water stop bath and see if that eliminates pin holes. How long do you use water as stop bath?

I use distilled or RO water for all solutions and use 1/2 strength acetic acid with all pyro formulas; never has pinholes. Sorry, I know that doesn't mean much to your specific case, but thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. ;)

[jmontague]

Steve, are you using the latest generation holders in the SPP? I had issues with the earlier versions, but have not had issues with the latest holders. Occasionally, the tabs will scratch off some of the emulsion at the edge, but rarely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Drew Wiley]

Sometimes in cold weather, certain pyro ingredients tend to crystallize. Visually inspect your bottles for any suspended or settled particulate "snowflakes". Put your unmixed A&B bottles in a warming water jacket for awhile, then gently shake them, prior to making your working solution, if this tendency is suspected. It can indeed resemble hard water issues.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Sometimes in cold weather, certain pyro ingredients tend to crystallize. Visually inspect your bottles for any suspended or settled particulate "snowflakes". Put your unmixed A&B bottles in a warming water jacket for awhile, then gently shake them, prior to making your working solution, if this tendency is suspected. It can indeed resemble hard water issues.

Will do this. It is usually 70-75 in my house where I keep things.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I use distilled or RO water for all solutions and use 1/2 strength acetic acid with all pyro formulas; never has pinholes. Sorry, I know that doesn't mean much to your specific case, but thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. ;)

All info helps. I use distilled/RO water as well. I also did one sheet with water stop developed with tmax 1:18 for 1 hour at 75F. Visually image looks great, won't know till I scan in. Also did as taco method in sp-445.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Lates trial. Taco method sp-445, TMAX Developer, 1:18@75F for 1 hour. Initial agitation 2 minutes, 5 minute pre-soak, water stop bath for 1 minute. Only a couole white dots and 1 or 2 black dots. Iphone shot off light table. Currently doing same thing with Pyrocat at 1:1:150.

It appears the 1 hour tmax minimal agitation works.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I am about to say f$&k the pyro. My second sheet of identical image mixed exactly same just came out chock full of pinholes in the sky whereas the first sheet looked good. Now looking at B solution it appears to have super fine particles in it. This brand new set opened onxe, put into brown glass bottles. And they appear to be only in the sky (high density areas)

I am gonna write PF and let them know what is up. I will order the powders and mix only amount I need for a session. If this keeps happening, then Pyrocat is usueless to me and that is a shame as I like how it works, especially the divided bath.

Perhaps it is just HP5 400 it doesn't like. However, I am sure plentybhave great results with it and HP5 400.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Suggestion I got was the stop bath could be caising pinholes, so I switched to water. Still got pinholes. Changing out distilled water as last stop and using fresh fixer and hypoclear. If it was water I would expect to see it with sheets developed with Tmax, but they show virtually no pinholes, maybe 1 or 2.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

While Pyrocat worked at 10 min development time and normal agitation. It does not work with extended development time and minimal agitation. Has failed everytime. This of coudse is with HP5 400. I am hesitant to try with my Acros as I only have 110 sheets. Was given suggestion to use a very small drop of dish soap. I was thinking photo-flo (it is ised in solution A for the 2-bath method). It seems either bubbles form due to minimal agitation due ro the nature of pyrocat and HP5 400 as it does not happen with Tmax developer and HP5 400 extended development time with minimal agitation.

I know minimal agitation is used with great success and I wonder what film is used? HP5 400 does not seem suited to Pyrocat and minimal agitation.

[Tim V]

I've seen a Facebook group named 'Pyro Highlights' and a guys is doing many semi-stand and stand developments with Ilford films and Pyrocat-HD. Maybe try there for advise?

[interneg]

Suggestion I got was the stop bath could be caising pinholes, so I switched to water. Still got pinholes. Changing out distilled water as last stop and using fresh fixer and hypoclear. If it was water I would expect to see it with sheets developed with Tmax, but they show virtually no pinholes, maybe 1 or 2.

Extremely unlikely to be pinholes with a modern film - even with a carbonate containing developer - could be undissolved solids, or a whole long list of things. I do note that Moersch is currently recommending against running HP5+ currently in Tanol (essentially his version of Pyrocat) due to it causing development problems.

It may be that HP5 has undergone a subtle manufacturing change that causes the same problems in Pyrocat developers as Adox CHSII in roll form does.

[Peter Lewin]

Perhaps it is just HP5 400 it doesn't like. However, I am sure plenty have great results with it and HP5 400.
I'm guessing that I've used Pyrocat and PMK with HP5+ in both 4x5 and 120 formats as my standard for at least a decade, and never had the problem you are having. Whatever is causing it is not an inherent problem with the HP5+/Pyrocat combination.

[mrred]

I agree with Peter Lewin. If you have some lye around, you can use a %10 solution to replace the B. This will at least isolate if that is your actual problem. Lye always completely disolves in water unlike carbonate which saturates. Your developer will be slightly more active so lesson your development times.

With the suggestion of photoflo/dish soap, that is a cure for uneven development and is not your problem here.

[Alan9940]

I know minimal agitation is used with great success and I wonder what film is used?

I have done both minimal agitation and EMA (extreme minimal agitation) techniques with FP4+ and Foma 100 using tanks/hangers and homemade tube tanks. No issues with Pyrocat-HD. In the past, I've done DBI with HP5+ in ABC Pyro, tanks/hangers, without issue.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Got suggestion from Steve Sherman yo try a water born paint filter to filter out any undisolved carbonate. I got some that fklterbdoen to 125microns. Next would be a syringe filter. Then make my own and even try the lye suggestion. Any brand for lye? Photoflo trial will be presoak only.

[mrred]

I'm in Canada, so I use the home hardware brand of lye. But as long as it is just lye (Sodium Hydryoxide, NaOH) with no other products in it, you are good to go.

You need so little... 10g to make 100ml stock, if you know someone that has any, just borrow some. Mix the lye into the water, not the water into the lye. AT this dilution plastics are fine. Don't breath it in while mixing. I use medical gloves. It has close to the same PH when mixed as the carbonate, so it is safe to treat it the same.

[Tim V]

I hope that this isn't the case, as currently HP5 in PMK is my favourite combo... I wonder what the problem is?


I do note that Moersch is currently recommending against running HP5+ currently in Tanol (essentially his version of Pyrocat) due to it causing development problems.

It may be that HP5 has undergone a subtle manufacturing change that causes the same problems in Pyrocat developers as Adox CHSII in roll form does.

[interneg]

I hope that this isn't the case, as currently HP5 in PMK is my favourite combo... I wonder what the problem is?

There seems to be no indication that any of the pyrogallol developers are having any problems with HP5+, it may well be something to do with the carbonate component rather than the film.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I have figured out the issue I think. Using fresh Pyro, I developed a sheet normally at 2+2+100 fr 10 minutes at 75F. Water stop bath and Kodak fix with Hypoclear and 10 minute wash. No problems. Mixed a new solution from same stock chemicals at 1+1+175, for minimal agitation for 1 hour. 1.5 min initial agitation then 4-5 inversions every 15 min. Water stop bat, Kodak fix, Hypoclear and 10 minute wash. Fail! White dots everywhere. Emulsion was smooth, no particles stuck to it.

While the Pyro mix looks absolutely clear, it turns out there are extremely small particles that will adhere to the emulsion. For typical development and agitation this doesn't pose a problem. For minimal agitation every 15 minutes it does. The 15 minute wait time is long enough to disrupt the action of the developer and turn the negative into a polkadot mess.

At the suggestion of Steve Sherman, I will try my next set of tests by filtering the working solution thru a water borne paint filter that will filter any hung 125 microns and larger. If that works golden, if sorta works, or less, then I will go to a syringe f liter to filter everything at .1-.2 microns and larger. That will work for sure.

Will let everyone know how tests go once I get new images. Had a set back last week. Went to Paige, AZ for 3 days and got super sick when I got there, like deathx2. Still, loaded up thirteen film holders and readied for the next day. Drove all over, but saw nothing to break out camera.

Next day, same thing, but found something to photograph. Low and behold, my bag with my film holders and light meter were missing. I only got out of truck and into back seat 1 time and that was to photograph the scene. Hotel didn't have it, police had no reports, etc. I am completely lost on this one. My wife was with me and didn't see it fall out our anything either. To top it off, I am still sick. Definitely one of those weeks to have stayed in bed. In fact, I spent three days in hospital during Christmas thinking my heart was going south. Turns out though it got better over the last two years. It is now text book perfect, but now I gotta get the alien prove in both ends.

Ordered 14 new, well used, Toyo cut film holders. Now need to purchase a Sekonic 508 light meter. Found one on Ebay for 319. Looks almost new.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Here are the last images. One has none or very, very little white dots and is normally developed. The other is a mess and minimally agitated for 1 hour.

[Jim Noel]

Mix the Pyrocat HD from scratch rather than getting if from Formulary. You will most likely get better results.
Hope you have better luck getting them to replace it/make good than some of us have had.

Totally agree. I have used pyrocat HD since it was first presented by Sandy. I have never had a problem with it when I mixed my own. On one occasion I tried some pre-mixed from PF and had pinholes in addition streaks and other problems. After a second try, i disposed of the remaining solutions.

[Jim Noel]

While Pyrocat worked at 10 min development time and normal agitation. It does not work with extended development time and minimal agitation. Has failed everytime. This of coudse is with HP5 400. I am hesitant to try with my Acros as I only have 110 sheets. Was given suggestion to use a very small drop of dish soap. I was thinking photo-flo (it is ised in solution A for the 2-bath method). It seems either bubbles form due to minimal agitation due ro the nature of pyrocat and HP5 400 as it does not happen with Tmax developer and HP5 400 extended development time with minimal agitation.

I know minimal agitation is used with great success and I wonder what film is used? HP5 400 does not seem suited to Pyrocat and minimal agitation.

STay away from Photo-flo. Obtain some LFN instead.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I just developed two 8x10 sheets of HP5 in Pyrocat-HD that I mixed from scratch (with distilled water not glycol), last summer and both negatives look great. I've never had an issue with this developer and HP5, or other films for that matter. It's been my main developer since about 2003. If I were you, I'd round up the few chemicals required and mix your own, as it sounds like the issue with the developer originates at PF...

[Steven Ruttenberg]

The issue is not standard development times, it is the extended minimal, semi-stand and stand development where the developer just sits there for long periods of time so microscopic particles will wreak havoc with the film, but for normal development and agitation cycles, the developer can never sit long enough to cause an issue.

I am going to buy the raw chemicals and start making my own since I can then mix a batch for use prior to a session with any leftovers getting flushed. The air is so dry in AZ as well, that I think it causes the mixture of B to oxidize quicker and dry out quicker. But I only mix the solution no more than 10 minutes or so prior to use and check for any particles. The last image above with white dots there were no visible particles in the solution or any of the chemicals/water for that matter.

Will get some lye soon and give it a shot.

[mrred]

Let me know if you want to try my formula. Water-based and catechol/metol for better shelf life. My formula is based on maximum synergy between the metol/chatechol where pyrocat was tuned to a curve. I use mine divided and lasts 6 months to a year in that mixed state.

[Corran]

Forgive me as I've only glanced at the posts.

I see your bottles have a "142" marked on it.I just finished up a 500 mL set that I bought last year - number was 186. My new batch I haven't used is 192. I have the Glycol version.

I specifically asked for a fresh-mixed batch on my notes from PF, after hearing of esearing's problem. I like the Glycol version for long-term use and have had 0 issues.

I am about to develop some more film, so, will update soon. Currently doing a clip test on some developer.

[Corran]

Follow-up: negatives are hanging to dry and look immaculate. If your Pyrocat is bad I would talk to PF about when it was mixed. I found my old 100 mL set and it was marked 180-something, and I looked up THIS (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?147858-When-Good-Pyrocat-goes-Bad/page3&p=1459698#post1459698)post from esearing about a bad batch of Pyrocat a little while ago, where he mentions it was #188.

I don't know how their numbering system works so can't say for certain that yours is older or newer, but all of my Pyro and Eric's too seem to be pretty close in number, while yours is way lower number.

I continue to have no problems with liquid, Glycol-based Pyro from PF. I used the last batch down to literally the last drop.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Follow-up: negatives are hanging to dry and look immaculate. If your Pyrocat is bad I would talk to PF about when it was mixed. I found my old 100 mL set and it was marked 180-something, and I looked up THIS (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?147858-When-Good-Pyrocat-goes-Bad/page3&p=1459698#post1459698)post from esearing about a bad batch of Pyrocat a little while ago, where he mentions it was #188.

I don't know how their numbering system works so can't say for certain that yours is older or newer, but all of my Pyro and Eric's too seem to be pretty close in number, while yours is way lower number.

I continue to have no problems with liquid, Glycol-based Pyro from PF. I used the last batch down to literally the last drop.

I will certainly check that out in email to them.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Let me know if you want to try my formula. Water-based and catechol/metol for better shelf life. My formula is based on maximum synergy between the metol/chatechol where pyrocat was tuned to a curve. I use mine divided and lasts 6 months to a year in that mixed state.

I'd like to try it, Peter.

[mrred]

MCAT 'A'

Mix in order. May not be absorbed otherwise.

70 mil dist water
pinch of sodium sulfite
1.5 g metol
6 g catechol
25 g sodium sulfite
distilled water to 100 ml for concentrate or 1000 ml for divided use.

Part B

70 ml distilled water
10 g sodium hydroxide (lye)
distilled water to 100 ml


In concentrate, I use 1:1:75 with a start time of about 7 mins. Adjust the contrast by changing the concentration of the B.

In divided (what I actually use) I soak part a for 5 mins, dump back for re-use and don't rinse, and then 1:150 of the B for about 7 mins. You can adjust the contrast with changing the concentration of the B.

The divided (unlike pyrocat) will give you 6 months to a year of life. It actually tends to last longer than the concentrate. Because it's re-used, it will get discoloured by the dye. Do a quick test with a clip of film. Let it soak (lights on) for 5 in A and then watch it turn black in B.

My tank takes about 700 ml to fill. I mix up 2 l of A. When it get's low enough, I mix up a half batch and top it up.

Don't be shy with a coffee filter with the A divided, as crap from the film will build up over time.

This formula is about 5 years old now and is as stable as it's going to get. The formula is doing what I wanted it to do.

If you do get uneven development, presoak is the cure.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

MCAT 'A'

Mix in order. May not be absorbed otherwise.

70 mil dist water
pinch of sodium sulfite
1.5 g metol
6 g catechol
25 g sodium sulfite
distilled water to 100 ml for concentrate or 1000 ml for divided use.

Part B

70 ml distilled water
10 g sodium hydroxide (lye)
distilled water to 100 ml


In concentrate, I use 1:1:75 with a start time of about 7 mins. Adjust the contrast by changing the concentration of the B.

In divided (what I actually use) I soak part a for 5 mins, dump back for re-use and don't rinse, and then 1:150 of the B for about 7 mins. You can adjust the contrast with changing the concentration of the B.

The divided (unlike pyrocat) will give you 6 months to a year of life. It actually tends to last longer than the concentrate. Because it's re-used, it will get discoloured by the dye. Do a quick test with a clip of film. Let it soak (lights on) for 5 in A and then watch it turn black in B.

My tank takes about 700 ml to fill. I mix up 2 l of A. When it get's low enough, I mix up a half batch and top it up.

Don't be shy with a coffee filter with the A divided, as crap from the film will build up over time.

This formula is about 5 years old now and is as stable as it's going to get. The formula is doing what I wanted it to do.

If you do get uneven development, presoak is the cure.

Interesting. How much is a pinch? :)

[mrred]

A pinch is an amount you can hold between your thumb and pointer finger. It's a small amount to prevent the metol from oxadizing too quickly and aids in the mixing. Too much ss will actually prevent the other ingredients from dissolving.

[Willie]

Why not stick with Sandy's formula? Going to metol puts you in the sights of Metol Reaction - that hits some after awhile. Going along just find and then it crops up. Why push your luck - go with what Sandy King came up with and many use successfully.

[mrred]

His formula didn't meet my needs and I like Metol.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

What need did it not meet? I am not a fan of dermititis. And the times I have used PF stuff, I have come away wit red, itchy hands and that is wearing gloves.

[mrred]

Divided dies in a few days (as opposed to mine living 6 months to a year), phen and catechol not optimized for activity (min develops in as little as 6 mins), the shelf life of raw metol is much longer then phen, metol was required to stretch the lifespan of a water based developer, not enough sulfite for oxigen scrubbing.

I was really interested in doing divided developing and pryrocat-hd is not practicle with it's short lifespan. Much of the formulation was targeted to do just this. However it does perform equally as well in the concentrate form.

I never liked the glycol forms as they can easily get poluted with water if you don't make sure your syringes are dry after cleaning.

Divided use with the glycol based developer has an even shorter lifespan as there is almost nothing to scrub the oxygen from the water.

[mrred]

Steve, I started developing film in the 70s. I have yet to meet anyone ever react to Metol. I'm sure it is possible, but I don't think it is common at all. D76 and Dektol are the most common Metol based developers.

Odds are you have/had used them.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Interesting discussion. I don't know for sure it was due to me tol, but it was strange my hands would get red and itchy after a day of developing. I am still learning all this to get a method to be able to have a negative with great detail, skies in the extreme not blown out while keeping all shadow detail. Not an easy task when shooting into the sun got sunrise/sunset pictures and stronglbacklit objects like trees and buildings.

By lifespan, you mean the working solution? I always mix just enough for one use just a few minutes before using, making from stock solution.

[mrred]

A divided developer is not a one-shot by nature. Part A (I mix 2 l) survives me almost a year as it gets re-used for all that duration. The B part becomes the one shot. For large format, it becomes quite economical.

As far as your hands are concerned, there isn't much contact with the chemical when tank developing. if it becomes an issue, rince your hands under a tap. The Metol used here is a minor developing agent and is only used to accelorate the chatechol. There is not much of it.

For the lighting conditions you mention, a divided pyro seems to be the one to use. In that form, compensation effects and the staining action can be a shot-saver. I usually overexpose slightly to get better shadow detail knowing the developer will save my highlights.

I also would not worry about minimal agitation. The developer gives great edge and highlight control, even with continuous rotary drum.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Update. I filtered down to .22micron. Using parish at 1:1:175in 500ml h20 for 1 hour. Still got pinholes. Developer was as clean as it gets. I am wondering now if the strength is to stron for a 1 hour development. Images on my iPad and inverted with ps for iOS.

[Tin Can]

Steven, why not try as a control a known developer that is good for 1 hour stand?

Like 10ml Rodinol per 80 sg at 1/200 and see what happens.

I use X-Ray film like this, great for trying things

I just wasted 4 sheets of 8X10 X_ray for an experiment

But I did learn something

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I did. I used Tmax for 1 hour and it worked fine.

So either HP5-400 I have does not like long time in Pyro (bad batch) or the strength is to strong. I am going to try tmax100 in Pyro at 1:1:175 500 ml for 1 hour and see how it does. As before the HP5-400 works fine at normal dilution and development times in Pyrocat.

[Tin Can]

Good, hope you find the problem soon

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Steven, why not try as a control a known developer that is good for 1 hour stand?

Like 10ml Rodinol per 80 sg at 1/200 and see what happens.

I use X-Ray film like this, great for trying things

I just wasted 4 sheets of 8X10 X_ray for an experiment

But I did learn something

What was experiment? I am perfecting on 4x5 before going full bore 8x10

[Tin Can]

It was lighting and exposure

X-Ray is easy to cut to any size under a safelight

Sometimes i use it like Polaroid, shooting, quick process and repeat


What was experiment? I am perfecting on 4x5 before going full bore 8x10

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Cool

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Interesting, the arrows indicate the directions of the spots. Pattern indicates a swirling motion inside the sp 440. I simply invert. But,still puzzled on why the spot formation.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Here is an image from previous minimal agitation development under same parameters from a few weeks ago. Same swirl pattern to dots. Like film emulsion being melted and whisked away when agitating. There should be no rotation in SP-445 like that.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Sometimes pinholes are caused by too strong stop bath - gas bubbles pop through the emulsion.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Water stop bath.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I am trying tube process to see if it is the agitation method of inverting a tank. Doubt it though. Although this is good practice for using a tube.

Gonna shoot to frames with Acros 100 and see if I get same issue. If I do it is the pyro.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Definitely not method of development. Ie, tube or tank.

[John Layton]

Steven...pardon me if you've already addressed this - but have you had you water tested for metals? I had a problem with excess iron a few years back...and although the effects of this were not exactly like yours (more like dark blue blotches), I'd still wonder if there isn't something precipitating out chemically somehow.
PH can also affect this...I'll assume you're mixing developer with distilled water - but what about your water stop bath...is it at least slightly alkaline? Just trying to cover some bases here. Sounds frustrating!

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I use either distilled water or water from RO system. I have had this happen with water stop bath and regular stop bath. I am ordering testers this week to rule out dissolved solids of which I shouldn’t have any and to rule out ph level. But as stated in other thread, the pyro works fine with normal development times and dilutions. All my other developers work fine for minimal agitation as well as normal. So I am ruling out if it is film specific or not. If not then I rule out water. If not water pyro batch I got is bad.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

It is the film. HP5-400 doesn't like PyrocatHD for minimal agitation. The Acros developed fine. Only a couple pinholes. Like 3. Second sheet of Acros no pinholes but but 4 air bubbles. Easy enough to fix.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

So no one has to read thru all the posts, the short version is, it is the film. I shot two frames of Acros 100 yesterday and followed the same procedure. Neither showed the issues. 1 frame had a couple of pinholes, like 3, the other had none (although I did get 4 air bubbles, my fault) but both frames are highly usable. I know several have stated they have had no problems with HP5-400 and PyrocatHD when doing minimal agitation (mine is over a 1 hour period) so must be this particular batch of film, maybe not (maybe they changed formula or something, who knows. It does fine using Tmax Developer for 1 hour minimal agitation. I did try tube processing to see if it was the SP-445 and inversion agitation, but got same result.

So, from now on, I will test 1 sheet of whatever film I am using from the box I got it from to be sure it will work with minimal agitation or stand process if I am doing that using the developer of choice for that project/outing. For now, I will not be using HP5-400 with Pyrocat for minimal agitation or stand processing. Just regular old 2-bath or single bath.

The left two do not have pin holes, although one has some air bubble snot. Both are Acros 100. The polka dot one is the HP5-400. All processed identically.

[Tin Can]

Good to hear!

[Oren Grad]

Threads merged.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Cool. Thanks!

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

MCAT 'A'


70 mil dist water
pinch of sodium sulfite
1.5 g metol
6 g catechol
25 g sodium sulfite
distilled water to 100 ml for concentrate or 1000 ml for divided use.

Part B

70 ml distilled water
10 g sodium hydroxide (lye)
distilled water to 100 ml

...

In divided (what I actually use) I soak part a for 5 mins, dump back for re-use and don't rinse, and then 1:150 of the B for about 7 mins. You can adjust the contrast with changing the concentration of the B.



Peter,

Your MCAT divided developer is very interesting to me and I would like to try it on 35mm film first. Thanks for sharing your secret sauce. :)

I'm a little intrigued by the two baths and would appreciate your help in making me understand the mechanism of MCAT.

1. Is this a staining developer? High sulphite level in part A makes me think that MCAT might not be a staining developer. Even if Sulphite is ignored, the ratio of Metol to Catechol is quite high to produce appreciable stain. I remember Sandy King saying in one of the threads that too much Metol can reduce stain. In fact, Pyrocat-M has Metol and Catechol in the ratio 1:20.
2. Does development happen in both baths or only in the second bath? As part A contains both Metol and Sulphite, I would think a good amount of development happens in the seven minutes spent in the first bath. But the presence of acidic Catechol in part A makes me think otherwise.
3. Do you agitate the tank in either of two baths? How much?