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View Full Version : Brand Spanking New Here... what are practical differences among Chamonix 4x5 models?



Laminarman
28-Dec-2018, 15:16
I'm new here and great forum, just found it! By way of short history, some 30 years ago studied photography at RIT, used their LF cameras, up to 8x10 and now years later I'm an optometrist and still active with my photography for fun. Nikon D810, Leica M2 and Hasselblad 500 C/M are main tools. Am getting back into developing film now and have a v850 Pro scanner which gives modestly good results for me. I do hybrid, as I sold all my enlarging stuff years ago (I know, I know...) But now after finally slowing my shooting down with MF film and enjoying the process more than ever, I have the LF bug (insert eye roll guy here). Have been spending hours on the net, and pretty much decided a Chamonix 4x5 is for me. I'd like to buy new. But what I can't figure out from the website is what the practical differences are between the N2 and F2? This will be primarily field work, and I imagine a 90 and 150 lens for landscapes (don't do much else but dabble in street photography with the Leica). The weight is about the same between the two and tilt/shift the same as well. Lenses will be purchased used. I am open to other cameras but I believe you should shoot what looks nice to your eye and the Chamonix in wood appeals. Thank you, in advance. Andy

BrianShaw
28-Dec-2018, 15:34
Hello, Andy. Welcome!

Tin Can
28-Dec-2018, 15:39
Hi Andy, welcome!

I am looking at the 4X5 H2 models. (http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/45H.html)

As I find folding a problem.

chassis
28-Dec-2018, 17:40
Welcome, Andy!

Laminarman
28-Dec-2018, 18:40
Wow! Thank you everyone. Didn’t even consider the non folder because I planned on putting it in a photo backpack. Wish I could see one in person.

Two23
28-Dec-2018, 19:40
I have the 45n and really like it. It's a folder and folds up very compactly. These were designed as backpacking cameras. I easily used a Nikon 90mm f4.5 on it, and also Rodenstock 135mm f5.6, Fuji 180mm f5.6, and now a Nikon M 300mm f9. It's a very versatile camera. It will take lenses out to 300mm and maybe beyond, but since it's so lightweight I don't suggest the big Copal 3 300mm f5.6 lenses for that. I've been using this camera for ten years and am quite content with it. I'll add that I had the misfortune to find out that Chamonix customer service is first rate on getting replacement parts. As for your question, one of the differences in models is base tilt vs. axis tilt on the front standard. Mine has axis tilt and I've not been hindered by that.


Kent in SD

Peter De Smidt
28-Dec-2018, 19:43
I bet someone near you has one that you can look at.

Leigh
28-Dec-2018, 20:19
Hi Andy, and Welcome Aboard.

Where are you located?
You might add that to your profile so it shows up on every post.

- Leigh

Laminarman
28-Dec-2018, 20:42
Hi Andy, and Welcome Aboard.

Where are you located?
You might add that to your profile so it shows up on every post.

- Leigh

Done! Upstate NY below Syracuse near the Binghamton area. The land of rain and clouds and high taxes.

Laminarman
28-Dec-2018, 20:51
I have the 45n and really like it. It's a folder and folds up very compactly. These were designed as backpacking cameras. I easily used a Nikon 90mm f4.5 on it, and also Rodenstock 135mm f5.6, Fuji 180mm f5.6, and now a Nikon M 300mm f9. It's a very versatile camera. It will take lenses out to 300mm and maybe beyond, but since it's so lightweight I don't suggest the big Copal 3 300mm f5.6 lenses for that. I've been using this camera for ten years and am quite content with it. I'll add that I had the misfortune to find out that Chamonix customer service is first rate on getting replacement parts. As for your question, one of the differences in models is base tilt vs. axis tilt on the front standard. Mine has axis tilt and I've not been hindered by that.


Kent in SD

Thank you Kent. Unless I'm missing something it looks like the F2 and H2 both have axis tilt?? I'm still not sure what the differences really are in these cameras (F and H). Sorry.

Two23
28-Dec-2018, 21:28
It looks to me that the major differences are: (1) the H can accept three different rear standards 4x5, 4x10, 5x7 (2) H is a little heavier (3) H requires two hands to focus if camera bed is not level (4) the H can be collapsed with a small/wide lens attached but the lens/lens board must be removed from the F to fold it up. (5) the F will fold down flat into a very compact shape for easier packing but the H can only have the front & rear standards pushed tightly together (making a "T" shape for packing.) The advantage of the F is it folds up more compactly. The advantage of the H is it would be faster to set up.

All in all, I think for general photography the F is a better bet. I doubt that you'll be buying new bellows, film holders and backs to take advantage of the H camera system. And really, the N series will likely do all you need for that matter. It's very similar to the F. I haven't felt the need to switch to either F or H.

H camera:
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/_images/045H-2.jpg

F camera:
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/_images/045F1c.jpg



Kent in SD

otto.f
29-Dec-2018, 00:35
Hello Andy, wellcome! The most important difference is that the F2 has this: http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/_images/045F1f.jpg. It works a bit faster/easier because it can retain the focus plane with certain perspective corrections. It’s explained at the site, but Hugo Zhang will be glad to explain it to you if you mail him. Thus far I never used this extra possibility, I own the F2 for over a year now. I was a bit quick in ordering the F2, but now I sometimes regret not having bought the H because you can expand it to 5x7 or 6x17, which is a nice option. It’s 300gm heavier though which is equal to an extra lens in my bag.

rohanbassett
29-Dec-2018, 01:33
But what I can't figure out from the website is what the practical differences are between the N2 and F2?
Others have already commented on the rear asymmetric tilts on the F2*, but another feature that was added to the F2 line (and not yet the N line, unless I'm mistaken) is having seperate knobs on the front standard for rise/fall and tilt.

I'd recommend it for that feature alone. Note that the seperate knobs are also a feature on the 45H line, if the non-folding option appeals to you.

* just checked and nobody actually mentioned it by name, but it's the feature otto.f is referring to.

otto.f
29-Dec-2018, 05:11
* just checked and nobody actually mentioned it by name, but it's the feature otto.f is referring to.

The asymmetrical movement of the back standard are also a specialty of the F-line, but that was not what I meant with the link to the photo. I’m not a teacher in viewcamera’s, neither is my english excellent, but what I meant is the following: there is a line on the groundglass at about 1/4 from the bottom. If your focusplane in the subject is on that line, the movements guided by the bended rail (light grey knob on the photo) will not change the focus point on that line.
The asymmetrical movements of the backstandard are more meant for arty effects in perspective if I’m not mistaken. But I’m eager to learn better if I’m wrong here.

Laminarman
29-Dec-2018, 08:10
It's all coming into focus now (pardon the pun) and I can't thank you folks enough. I was lucky enough to study with Leslie Stroebel at RIT even though I was biomedical photography, dumb enough to have gotten rid of his book, all of my notes, and a few photographs he had given me (well, I lost those in a flood). While the H is certainly appealing, without even looking into it, buying a new rear back, bellows and film holders probably won't happen. I could see me jumping to 8x10. Even though I'm physically fit and 54, and a pound here or there isn't anything, as the years go on those pounds somehow increase in weight and in my later years I'd like to still be able to carry this gear. Since most of this will be hiking/landscape, weight and portability is important and for those reasons i think the F is the wiser choice for me. Gonna get past the holidays and get one ordered I believe. Now....to tell the wife or not tell the wife? :rolleyes:

Tin Can
29-Dec-2018, 08:44
Tell the wife.

Buy from Hugo Zhang not the eBay seller.

angusparker
29-Dec-2018, 09:25
F2 is the way to go IMHO, unless you want to expand into different formats. I have had the N1 and now the F1. Folding is worth it to me because of the small package and the relative easy of set-up regardless.

angusparker
29-Dec-2018, 09:27
Also I think all the Chamonix with standard bellows can easily do 450mm with the optional bed extension. Bit it makes the camera a wind sock and I hardly use it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

otto.f
29-Dec-2018, 09:49
It's all coming into focus now (pardon the pun) and I can't thank you folks enough. I was lucky enough to study with Leslie Stroebel at RIT even though I was biomedical photography, dumb enough to have gotten rid of his book, all of my notes, and a few photographs he had given me (well, I lost those in a flood). While the H is certainly appealing, without even looking into it, buying a new rear back, bellows and film holders probably won't happen. I could see me jumping to 8x10. Even though I'm physically fit and 54, and a pound here or there isn't anything, as the years go on those pounds somehow increase in weight and in my later years I'd like to still be able to carry this gear. Since most of this will be hiking/landscape, weight and portability is important and for those reasons i think the F is the wiser choice for me. Gonna get past the holidays and get one ordered I believe. Now....to tell the wife or not tell the wife? :rolleyes:

Good choice then!
Yes tell the wife. I did and it was wellcomed by her because she liked it in our interior, especially with the red bellows.

Two23
29-Dec-2018, 09:55
Now....to tell the wife or not tell the wife? :rolleyes:


I always tell my wife...........when she finds it.


Kent in SD

Bernice Loui
29-Dec-2018, 10:30
Suggest considering a Sinar Norma and other Sinar cameras if the limitations of a field camera becomes significant.


Bernice

Laminarman
29-Dec-2018, 12:06
Thank you everyone. I do plan on buying directly from Hugo. Have been Eburned before, but have had some good transactions too. But I'd rather go direct anyways. My wife has never denied me anything, she's a gem. Then again, my greatest fear in life is I die and she sells all my stuff for what I told her I paid for it ; )

rohanbassett
29-Dec-2018, 17:16
The asymmetrical movement of the back standard are also a specialty of the F-line, but that was not what I meant with the link to the photo. I’m not a teacher in viewcamera’s, neither is my english excellent, but what I meant is the following: there is a line on the groundglass at about 1/4 from the bottom. If your focusplane in the subject is on that line, the movements guided by the bended rail (light grey knob on the photo) will not change the focus point on that line.
The asymmetrical movements of the backstandard are more meant for arty effects in perspective if I’m not mistaken. But I’m eager to learn better if I’m wrong here.
Yes, what you're describing with the dotted line and the grey knob (and curved rail) is asymmetric rear tilt.

The idea is to place the distant focal point on the lower dotted line, and then use asymmetric tilt to focus the foreground elements, with the distant focal point remaining unchanged. Naturally, as it involves rear movements, there'll be some perspective distortion -- but I haven't used the feature much myself, so can't speak to how pronounced it is. I suspect it could be used for arty effects, but the intention is to reduce the number of steps to focus across a plane.

There's an interesting thread about asymmetric movements and the pros & cons here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?50200-Asymmetrical-Movements-Pro-amp-Con).

otto.f
29-Dec-2018, 23:05
Thanks!
Btw, if weight would make a difference because of this feature on the F2, it’s only 50 grams heavier than the N2.

Bernice Loui
29-Dec-2018, 23:44
Asymmetrical movements discussed previously here:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?148767-Why-are-asymmetric-movements-asymmetric


IMO based on decades of using a view camera, asymmetric camera movements are most useful for studio table top images. The need to combine camera movements for outdoor "field" camera images is not common. This is really more of a nice to have feature than a feature that is often used with great advantages over field cameras without asymmetrical tilt-swing movements. Type of view camera need to fit the images to be created. Add to this no view camera is ideal for ALL image making needs, Each and every camera, film format, lens and etc is a set of trade offs. Knowing what the trade offs are that best-fits the image making needs is a good thing. Knowing what the trade offs are and core needs comes with burning a BIG pile-O-film over years to decades of using a view camera. Those new to this view camera stuff often faces a steep learning curve with challenges to move up this curve. All the while, the lure of what hardware (aka GEAR) might be coveted can often be a hinderance to expressive image making and moving up the learning curve.


Bernice


Yes, what you're describing with the dotted line and the grey knob (and curved rail) is asymmetric rear tilt.

The idea is to place the distant focal point on the lower dotted line, and then use asymmetric tilt to focus the foreground elements, with the distant focal point remaining unchanged. Naturally, as it involves rear movements, there'll be some perspective distortion -- but I haven't used the feature much myself, so can't speak to how pronounced it is. I suspect it could be used for arty effects, but the intention is to reduce the number of steps to focus across a plane.

There's an interesting thread about asymmetric movements and the pros & cons here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?50200-Asymmetrical-Movements-Pro-amp-Con).

Laminarman
30-Dec-2018, 09:52
Can I ask a related question that is stupid right now? I will order a few Chamonix lens holders (not cheap) but does any 4x5 lens holder work? Any advice here? I should probably start standing on my head and look into a mirror to watch TV to get ready to re-learn the view I'm going to get.

Two23
30-Dec-2018, 11:35
Can I ask a related question that is stupid right now? I will order a few Chamonix lens holders (not cheap) but does any 4x5 lens holder work? Any advice here? I should probably start standing on my head and look into a mirror to watch TV to get ready to re-learn the view I'm going to get.


The Chamonix lens boards look nice and are a little lighter as I think they are carbon fiber, but I just buy the cheap aluminum ones for $20 or so. They work fine.


Kent in SD

Winger
30-Dec-2018, 17:25
Done! Upstate NY below Syracuse near the Binghamton area. The land of rain and clouds and high taxes.

I grew up a little North of you in the Mohawk Valley (Little Falls). Too bad I'm about 5 hours away from Binghamton now - I have the F1 and love it. I chose it over the N2 mostly because I thought I might someday want the asymmetric tilts. I think somewhere on the Chamonix site there's a good explanation of the differences? The asymmetric tilts are likely more useful in architectural photography and I shoot out in the woods way more. I think I've used them once, but I also don't shoot nearly as much as I wish I did. There was a small enough difference in weight and price that I figured it was worth it to get the F1. I'm only 120 pounds and 5'6" and I can carry it with several film holders, a few lenses, and the other "stuff" that's needed (and usually a dSLR) with no major problem. I think my longest hike with it all has been around 5 miles. I do have a good backpack.

Laminarman
30-Dec-2018, 17:53
Thank you fellow Up-stater Bethe : )

David Rheubottom
6-Jan-2019, 18:38
Hi Andy, and welcome. I have a Chaminox 045-2 which replaced a very heavy and unwieldy MPP VII. It is a bit "fiddly", but the fiddlyness makes me slow down and concentrate -- which I think is a plus. The 45-F2 which has separate knobs for rise/fall and tilt would be an advantage over my 45. What might appear as an additional knob to fiddle with, would actually make setting up and adjusting easier. For what it is worth, I have a 90mm Rodenstock Grandagon, 210mm Fujinon-W, and a 300mm Nikkor-M. But my great love is a Schneider-Kreuznach Apo-Symmar which I use for about 95% of my work. If I didn't have it, I could happily get along with just the 210 Fujinon (although it is a bit heavy). All of my lenses were purchased on eBay and, by taking due care over description and seller, I've not had problems. Finally, this may sound sappy, but the damned Chaminox is just a beautiful piece of equipment and beautifully made, and pride of ownership is, for me, part of the pleasure of photographing with it. Somehow it adds to my sense of craft. As a fellow Hasselblad owner, you will probably know the feeling. Cheers, Dave

pepeguitarra
6-Jan-2019, 20:55
Hi Andy, welcome. I have been doing the same for a while and ordered the Chamonix 45F-2 yesterday. I found that it has one more movement (asymmetrical I guess) in the rear standard and double knobs to control front standard axis tilt and raise/fall. Other than that, it is about the same. Price wise, the N2 is $120 cheaper. Nico at Youtube promotes these cameras. You can see his videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlnrz_qahQs) in Youtube here too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzXkQ_gGyRc). I have not seen him promoting the N2, someone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJ0GMWJk-Y) else is doing that. Curious.

Laminarman
7-Jan-2019, 08:51
Hi Andy, and welcome. I have a Chaminox 045-2 which replaced a very heavy and unwieldy MPP VII. It is a bit "fiddly", but the fiddlyness makes me slow down and concentrate -- which I think is a plus. The 45-F2 which has separate knobs for rise/fall and tilt would be an advantage over my 45. What might appear as an additional knob to fiddle with, would actually make setting up and adjusting easier. For what it is worth, I have a 90mm Rodenstock Grandagon, 210mm Fujinon-W, and a 300mm Nikkor-M. But my great love is a Schneider-Kreuznach Apo-Symmar which I use for about 95% of my work. If I didn't have it, I could happily get along with just the 210 Fujinon (although it is a bit heavy). All of my lenses were purchased on eBay and, by taking due care over description and seller, I've not had problems. Finally, this may sound sappy, but the damned Chaminox is just a beautiful piece of equipment and beautifully made, and pride of ownership is, for me, part of the pleasure of photographing with it. Somehow it adds to my sense of craft. As a fellow Hasselblad owner, you will probably know the feeling. Cheers, Dave

Thank you David. And that's not sappy at all. I do enjoy my Leica, Hasseblad and bamboo fly rods immensely, as well as vacuum tube stereo gear, my German car with six cylinders laying flat instead of in a V, and a fine Italian double shotgun for grouse hunting. At some point in life it's not about the end result but also about the joy of using the tool to produce the end result : ) And hell, if it makes you smile it's worth is. And pride of ownership is very much a real thing. It means you'll care for it and most likely pass it on. I can't wait.

angusparker
7-Jan-2019, 11:49
Can I ask a related question that is stupid right now? I will order a few Chamonix lens holders (not cheap) but does any 4x5 lens holder work? Any advice here? I should probably start standing on my head and look into a mirror to watch TV to get ready to re-learn the view I'm going to get.

Word of caution here - while the Chamonix lensboards are lighter (and expensive), they don't always work when tried on another camera like the Shen Hao. So if you end up using the same lenses on a different camera (e.g. 8x10) you are better off using a Linhof style board.

Andrew O'Neill
7-Jan-2019, 11:56
From one Andy to another, welcome!

Laminarman
7-Jan-2019, 12:53
From one Andy to another, welcome!

Hello Andy! Would love to visit BC to do some steel head fishing by the way : )

m00dawg
15-Jan-2019, 13:44
Just to chime in, I ordered my 45F2 from Hugo in December. I've only brought it out a few times so far but it's a joy to use! I have an Intrepid 4x5 as well (my first LF camera) and while I still love it and will take it on backpacking trips, the 45F2 is quite the step up. I had a hard time trying to compare all the available camera options so I made this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F53RgCo1v_7-XywCAr7EMumRuUj76uATd-rq8C3vXxU/edit#gid=0) Google Spreadsheet to help. The raw specs don't tell the fully story but it definitely helped.

Very glad I chose the 45F2. It's fairly precise (the screw focus is awesome), the GG is fantastic over my Intrepid, though it is heavier (that's why for hardcore backpacking I'll stick with Intrepid). An absolute joy. I picked it over the H2 because I still wanted a folder and liked the design of the F2 a bit better. There is no right or wrong answer, it's personal choice and that may require some trial and error. I know folks few cameras as just a tool, but it's still an extension of you so I do consider it a bit of a journey.

In fairness, there are two things I don't like about the F2 - it's bellows are not IR safe (but you can replace them if you do lots of IR, or supposedly just covering the bellows with your darkcloth may work well enough for say Rollei IR film) and the front lens clips could be easier to engage. On the Intrepid it's very easy, on the F2 it's something you need to deliberately do and check to make sure you did it right (don't ask me how I know). Otherwise, it's such a fun camera. I've been taking the 4x5 where I probably shouldn't be taking a big camera just because it's so fun to use.

pepeguitarra
15-Jan-2019, 14:03
The asymmetrical movement of the back standard are also a specialty of the F-line, but that was not what I meant with the link to the photo. I’m not a teacher in viewcamera’s, neither is my english excellent, but what I meant is the following: there is a line on the groundglass at about 1/4 from the bottom. If your focusplane in the subject is on that line, the movements guided by the bended rail (light grey knob on the photo) will not change the focus point on that line.
The asymmetrical movements of the backstandard are more meant for arty effects in perspective if I’m not mistaken. But I’m eager to learn better if I’m wrong here.


Asymmetrical camara movements are explained here: http://www.mr-alvandi.com/downloads/large-format/asymmetrical-camera-movements-with-ebonyU-model-cameras.pdf

Laminarman
15-Jan-2019, 14:11
Thank you m00dawg. I paid for the F2 this morning and after a lot of help here decided on that model. I got a super clean (read "mint") Nikkor W 210 f 5.6 from Japan and eight almost new Fidelity film holders just last Friday from Ebay. All that for $325 total. Got the Rodinal, the 455 tank...etc waiting. Hugo said that 90% of people get the Fresnel lens so I got that, one lens board, red universal bellows and the folding viewer with carbon cover. I have a multitude of backpacks which should work, and I think I'm set with my tripod. THE FILM HAS BEEN ORDERED. Darn, this camera can't get here soon enough. In the meantime if we get the snow they're promising looks like i'm getting on my snowshoes with my Hasselblad this weekend for some snow shots. And then this, from my wife..."I don't get it. You have such nice new cameras why do you want something that uses film and is ugly and looks like it is from the Old West??" Hopefully I can make an image or two to show her why. You folks have been a great help, I hope I don't embarrass myself with it now.

pepeguitarra
15-Jan-2019, 14:31
Just to chime in, I ordered my 45F2 from Hugo in December. I've only brought it out a few times so far but it's a joy to use! I have an Intrepid 4x5 as well (my first LF camera) and while I still love it and will take it on backpacking trips, the 45F2 is quite the step up. I had a hard time trying to compare all the available camera options so I made this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F53RgCo1v_7-XywCAr7EMumRuUj76uATd-rq8C3vXxU/edit#gid=0) Google Spreadsheet to help. The raw specs don't tell the fully story but it definitely helped.

Very glad I chose the 45F2. It's fairly precise (the screw focus is awesome), the GG is fantastic over my Intrepid, though it is heavier (that's why for hardcore backpacking I'll stick with Intrepid). An absolute joy. I picked it over the H2 because I still wanted a folder and liked the design of the F2 a bit better. There is no right or wrong answer, it's personal choice and that may require some trial and error. I know folks few cameras as just a tool, but it's still an extension of you so I do consider it a bit of a journey.

In fairness, there are two things I don't like about the F2 - it's bellows are not IR safe (but you can replace them if you do lots of IR, or supposedly just covering the bellows with your darkcloth may work well enough for say Rollei IR film) and the front lens clips could be easier to engage. On the Intrepid it's very easy, on the F2 it's something you need to deliberately do and check to make sure you did it right (don't ask me how I know). Otherwise, it's such a fun camera. I've been taking the 4x5 where I probably shouldn't be taking a big camera just because it's so fun to use.


Hi m00dawg: Thanks for your comment and your spreadsheet. I am surprised you did not include the shen hao 4x5 hzx-iia camera in the analysis. That is one camera I really like, except for the 2 extra pounds over the Chamonix 45F2. I recently got the Chamonix 45F2 and agree that it is a jewel to use. I wish it had the style of the Shen Hao 45hzx-iia, so I don't have to chase a hole to screw the front standard. I am very happy with the Chamonix, but I do miss the Intrepid 45 MkII. It does not have rear std movements or separate control for the rise/fall and tilt in the front, but its weight (or lack of it) makes up for its use. Having two other 45 (Calumet C400 gray and black), I can tell you that the Chamonix has a fine finish, that it is a pleasure to use.

m00dawg
15-Jan-2019, 14:45
I can answer the Shen-Hao thing - it was mostly being a little over-loaded with all the options :) So I decided to focus on ones that were similar in price/weight was the only reason you don't see them there. It's a public spreadsheet though so feel free to add! I'll say to Shen-Hao also makes gorgeous cameras and I was leaning that way too. I want Chamonix in part because I bought their holders about six months ago and was captured by their beauty and function. They're my favorite holder now (but I still have plenty of Fidelity and others). I also missed cameras from other brands as well (if I coudln't find a lot of specs on a particular camera I also tended not to include it).

I love my MK2 - it got my into 4x5! But the 45F2 is like night and day. My MK2's GG is just not nearly as good (even with a fresnel) and I have some light leaks in the corners where the bellows meet the rear standard I need to silicon shut. I think it's what was giving me an occasional green casted color negative (so red after inversion). I had been chasing that for quite some time. I'm gonna keep it though because it's fun to use and my first and it's crazy light - big difference just between the F2 and it which I'm sure you noticed to. I also like how it smells more than than 45F2 which is a silly thing to say but even so...

I've produced images I like from both of them so can't go wrong. Oh but I have to say now that I have rear movements, danm that's fun! If you look at the spreadsheet, I put the MK2 and MK3 on there and when you compare the MK3 to the 45F2, on paper, there is some extreme value there (since the MK3 can do some rear movements). I'd still prefer the 45F2 in build quality but MK3 packs a ton of camera into a low price point. Kudos for Intrepid for making it so much easier to get into 4x5 for folks!