Advantages of Creating Silver Prints From Digital Negatives

[IanBarber]

During the last 6 months, I have been creating a wide selection of Silver prints ranging from 7x5 up to 8x10 from some digital negatives which I created from 4x5 sheet film. On the whole, I am very pleased with the results.

My process for creating the negative from what I understand is the standard process...


Scan the negative
Edit the file in Photoshop
Create a correction curve
Print onto the digital negative
Print the contact print in the darkroom onto RC Paper

As an experiment, I printed one of files onto some Canson Photographique Baryta paper to compare it with the contact print I made in the darkroom.
To me, apart from the paper surface, I saw virtually no difference in quality.

I am curious to here if other people are experiencing this and therefore wondering what are the advantages of printing the contact print in the darkroom rather than printing the edited file directly through the printer.

I see the advantages of another process like PD but I am referring to Silver printing digital negatives.

[Alan9940]

Advantages? Hmm, that seems like a loaded question to me, but I'll dive in a bit... If you don't see any difference in the result, then I guess it comes down to the more tactile experience of crafting a print in the darkroom vs pushing the "Print" button. How do you feel about the look of silver on paper vs ink on paper? Toning will toss an entire different variable into the mix. Personally, even though I've been working with digitally generated prints (both from digital capture and scanned B&W film) I've only made a few prints from the desktop that I'm satisfied with. Overall, I'd say I simply enjoy the whole process of crafting B&W prints in the darkroom better than sitting at my computer. Horses for courses, of course!

[CreationBear]

I find all of these "hybrid" approaches very intriguing (even if they introduce an intimidating suite of technical issues.:)) I'm curious: at the "prosumer" level (i.e., starting, say, with Epson v850's and 3880's) what are the largest DNG's people are regularly contact printing these days?

[Alan9940]

I find all of these "hybrid" approaches very intriguing (even if they introduce an intimidating suite of technical issues.:)) I'm curious: at the "prosumer" level (i.e., starting, say, with Epson v850's and 3880's) what are the largest DNG's people are regularly contact printing these days?

My use of digital negatives is strictly for pt/pd printing and large for me is roughly 10x12" and that's rare. I mostly make about 5x7" prints.

[IanBarber]

How do you feel about the look of silver on paper vs ink on paper? Toning will toss an entire different variable into the mix
In all fairness, I have only printed on RC paper with a pearl finish in the darkroom. This is why I chose Canson for the inkjet print because its a close match to the surface. Maybe fibre based paper would open up a new world.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the process of creating the contact print in the darkroom but was surprised to see just how close both looked to my eye.

[IanBarber]

I find all of these "hybrid" approaches very intriguing (even if they introduce an intimidating suite of technical issues.:)) I'm curious: at the "prosumer" level (i.e., starting, say, with Epson v850's and 3880's) what are the largest DNG's people are regularly contact printing these days?


10x8 is the largest I have done so far mainly because my darkroom is so small, I don't think I could easily accommodate any larger trays. I scan all my negatives on the V800 and print everything on the 3880 printer with the ABW driver. If I print toned images, then I will use QTR.

[CreationBear]

large for me is roughly 10x12"

Alan, Ian--thanks for elaborating, I'll definitely be interested in your insights over time. FWIW, I'll be curious what formats benefit from the hybrid approach--it seems to me that 5x7 might be an optimal platform for leveraging near-ULF output.

[bob carnie]

There is another thread going on created by Sandy King on this very topic, maybe the two can be merged by the moderators.??

[Paul Cunningham]

I'm curious: at the "prosumer" level (i.e., starting, say, with Epson v850's and 3880's) what are the largest DNG's people are regularly contact printing these days?

For platinum palladium, I print 16x16” and 16x20 on my Epson 3880.

[Chester McCheeserton]

I am curious to here if other people are experiencing this and therefore wondering what are the advantages of printing the contact print in the darkroom rather than printing the edited file directly through the printer.



you can sell the contact print for more because it touched liquid photographic chemistry and is now a precious handmade object. :))

I would think printing the edited file would be more direct on a number of levels though.

Of course making digital inkjet negatives you are limited to 360 ppi resolution, where your original 4x5 had at least 2000 ppi resolution (obv some would debate those numbers, but let's leave that aside for the moment)

This is not really what you're asking, but in terms of someone explaining what is so unique about contact prints, I've never heard it explained more profoundly than by Hilla Becher, in this interview with her and Bernd Becher, done by Heinz Liesbrock in the 1980s where they are discussing the work of Stephen Shore. (although I would never advocate for color contact prints today!)

the full title of the interview is called "His pictures have the quality of a first encounter"
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[Peter De Smidt]

Of course making digital inkjet negatives you are limited to 360 ppi resolution...


That's not true.

[cowanw]

If I recall that was the problem at the time of the last discussion on this; that the PPI resolution was to gross to allow for a non alternate process, although as I type, it maybe that discussion was about using negatives for enlargement in an enlarger. antway are people of the opinion now that the digital negative is acceptable for silver process enlargement or contact printing or what. and at what time did the opinion change (i.e. what printer changed peoples minds?).

[Greg Y]

"Print the contact print in the darkroom onto RC Paper" There's the weakness in your comparison. A contact print on RC paper is miles away from the look of a contact print made on silverchloride ( Azo or Lodima) processed in Amidol or a fine quality FB paper such as Ilford Warmtone or Galerie in Ansco 130 (or comparable)

[Chester McCheeserton]

That's not true.

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[Steve Sherman]

Master one medium, then and only then can one have an informed opinion about an alternative approach.

[Peter De Smidt]

Epson printers can use a 720dpi file. For instance, QTR will resize a file to 720 to send to the printer. Inkjetmall is developining a driver for one of the new printers that goes much higher.

[jnantz]

During the last 6 months, I have been creating a wide selection of Silver prints ranging from 7x5 up to 8x10 from some digital negatives which I created from 4x5 sheet film. On the whole, I am very pleased with the results.

My process for creating the negative from what I understand is the standard process...



hey ian

i have been making digital internatives for a few years now as well
mine are via xerox machine either on paper or ohp film. paper is heated
and waxed with paraffin on the stove to make a bit more see through but lately NOT
and its contact printed using the sun on photo paper with home made chlorobromide speed emulsion
ive done it with a variety of files that were born organic or electric... the advantage for me
is that i don't have to into the darkroom to print it, and i can just leave the contact frame in the window
or outside ..

have fun !
john

[Paul Cunningham]

Epson printers can use a 720dpi file. For instance, QTR will resize a file to 720 to send to the printer. Inkjetmall is developining a driver for one of the new printers that goes much higher.

Peter have you printed a test chart at 720 and been able to resolve the details? For me, I find that 360 is the practical limit on transparency film and Hahnemuehle Platinum Rag paper. (QTR and Epson 3880)


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[Jim Fitzgerald]

Master one medium, then and only then can one have an informed opinion about an alternative approach.

Yep!

[Peter De Smidt]

No, I haven’t. I just make prints directly, at the moment. With high quality files and glossy media, I see more detail with files above 360. Above 480, though, I don’t see noticable improvement. I don’t know all of the paper stats. Is the paper you’re printing on glossy? If not, won’t that limit obtainable detail?

[Paul Cunningham]

Is the paper you’re printing on glossy? If not, won’t that limit obtainable detail?
It’s matte, cotton rag and yes.



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[Pere Casals]

My process for creating the negative from what I understand is the standard process...


Ian, it would be interesting if you could post sample 100% crops scanned at max scanner res (with all "auto" disabled), of the silver negative scan, of the digital negative, and of the print. If possible scanning alongside with density wedges.

[IanBarber]

This is a scan of a digital negative step wedge which was printed onto some Permajet digital negative film. I scanned this at 2400ppi on an Epson V800 directly onto the scanner bed using the Film with Area Guide setting. No adjustments were made in the scanner software.

Looking at the 100% crop of one of the patches, it looks very noisy, is this normal when scanned under these conditions ?

Gray Scale Step Wedge
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100% Crop of the lightest patch
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[Pere Casals]

It can be sharpened

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From this sample it's clear what the inkjet does.

I guess you place the ink side in contact with paper...

If an inkjet has quality enough for you then the contact print will have near the same.

A contact print from the silver negative may look sharp even when seen with a x8 magnifier, but as human vision has limits going beyond centain point additional quality is not perceived.

My view is that your method is a good way to print on silver...

Anyway you may be also interested in reviewing the method Alan Ross decribes in his papers and workshops, that also offers an amazing degree of control while preserving the optical crafting nature of the print.


One question, what max density do you obtain with your printer on the transparency ?

[IanBarber]

One question, what max density do you obtain with your printer on the transparency ?

Darkest Patch = 0.10
Lightest Patch = 1.22

These values are taken with the VueScan Densitometer readings

[Alan9940]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned throughout this thread is the printer itself. I have played with Ian's process to craft a digital neg for silver contact printing and the result from my Epson R2880 is quite different than Ian's using his 3880 to print the neg. My prints looks as if they were shot on ISO 3200 film, while Ian's looks like about an ISO 100 film. He actually sent me one of his step wedges to print in my own darkroom. His results are acceptable IMO; mine are not.

To be honest, the outcome I witnessed for myself was/is confusing to me, since the R2880 prints at twice the resolution of a 3880 and with a slightly smaller droplet size! Same inkset. The only reason I could come up with for the difference in our results is that the 3880 (being manufactured to tighter tolerances and having a much larger printhead) lays ink down differently vs the R2880. Long story short, I suspect the printer has a lot to do with success.

And, before anybody asks... I printed my negs at the highest resolution / quality possible on my R2880.

[IanBarber]

This is a straight reflective scan of a contact print I made on Ilford Pearl RC from a digital negative printed onto Permajet Transfer Film from the Epson R3880 using the Epson ABW Driver.
My darkroom skills are quite poor to be honest as I only started tinkering with darkroom work 12 months ago, so someone with more darkroom experience would probably be able to get more from the contact print.

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This is the correction curve I used.

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The correction curve was generated from a Photoshop script I made several months ago

https://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/main-interface.jpg

[andrewch59]

Amazing! I have been trying for eons to print a step test and build a curve using corel paintshop pro. Out of curiosity I went to you tube and had a look at photoshop cc and the script for building a digital curve. How easy is that! I think perhaps it is time to stop being stubborn and subscribe to photoshop!