View Full Version : Critiques and Discussion-- what are they?
The Large Format Landscapes forum is a favorite of mine, but when regarding critiques and efficient use of space, I think it could be greatly improved. The relevant LFPF guideline reads:
Image Sharing (LF) & Discussion - Post your own large-format images (based on 4"x5" or larger format) for sharing and discussion. Critiques should only be offered if requested by the original poster.
There is a range of meanings for the word "critique", according to dictionaries, and in essence, it does not necessarily have to be negative. Most posters don't request a critique, so in these cases I would expect just the image to be posted and that's it, but there are so many comments that could be considered critiques, (e.g., great composition! love the mood, etc.) I figured the rule was not strictly enforced. Recently I made a short comment about an image being too dark, and the moderator removed it (and a similar one from another poster) because it was considered a critique, and the original poster did not request critiques. I am not upset about my post removal at all, but I wonder why the positive critiques are allowed, but not the negative ones.
A critique is nearly synonymous with "judgement", and although "judgement" or "being judgemental" usually has a negative connotation, a judgement in a court of law, for example, is positive for some, and negative for others. Maybe a photographer wants an image to be "too dark", and a comment saying it is "too dark" could be viewed as positive.
What is the difference between discussion and critique? Given the above, it would be hard to discuss an image without crossing the very vague line into critique.
Also, is there a bandwidth/file storage issue when an image is repeated many times in subsequent posts, due to comments below them in replies? Bandwidth aside, I find it tedious to wade through the same image many times to get to a new one, the ususal difference being a short comment below.
My suggested improvement is to:
1. Have a forum that allows critiques as a default, and substantial ones at that (both technical and aesthetic aspects), and careful editing of the replies to leave out the image, but reference it somehow. The original poster should name the image for reference.
2. Another forum could be for image sharing, with no comments at all.
3. Alternatively, clarify critique so that we know when the rules are being broken. This would take some thought and discussion from forum users, but is probably the best way to go about it.
This would require a big change, as the current LF image sharing forums would have to be closed to be efficient about it, assuming my concerns are valid or important enough to consider.
Before posting this, I searched the LFP website about critiques and read through them. There is some overlap but I think this one's unique enough to be a new post.
It's a prickly fruit...
On one hand, some one might only want positive affrmation and want everyone to like it, gathering unhelpful comments like "You Rock" or "Very nice" which would not help someone else who is trying to work through a visual problem or direction, or someone viewing the image might have their own biases that they are filtering through... So a complex situation...
The forum seems ok to get some motivation to present images in progress, but in general is is hard to find good review for one's work, as it is sorta "preaching to the choir" where technical problems can be discussed well, but outside of established genres, one is on their own... And the usual problem of singular images not always showing the progression of an idea towards a concept of the whole full circle...
I think it is difficult to find an outlet where what is in someone's mindscape can be objectively explored by others, but everyone please keep doing what you are doing, and I hope everyone's work will see the light of day somewhere and make an impression, or in the very least may the maker fulfill self discovery and advance along their path...
Learn from your "critics", but spread your own wings and fly and may others recognize your inner visions somehow/someway...
Steve K
Mark Sawyer
10-Dec-2018, 21:54
I think the most poignant and insightful photographic criticism is "your camera is ugly and you print things funny".
Ulophot
11-Dec-2018, 19:14
As one who, in seeking truth, tends to be frank in speaking of work of fellow artists (by which I refer here to persons already friends) who share their work with me -- because I welcome their views of my work as well -- I appreciate the gist of your post. I would say that, for this forum, the directive should simply be taken as, compliments are fine, but the artist may not wish to know that you think he or she should have composed/cropped/exposed/printed/etc. the image otherwise, so, unless asked, don't offer. enjoy what you like, learn as you wish.
In this understanding, it is easy for any poster to simply add a line of text, inviting thoughts, critique, comments, or whatever he or she may wish to elicit, either generally or in respect to a particular aspect of the work, such as, "I did x and x, but I'm having trouble getting the separation of the higher values that I want," or "The right third is bothering me somehow but I'm not sure what it is."
So, I think the use of "critique," in this context, is clear enough. In a workshop setting or other in-person grouping, it would tend to be closer the fuller definition of the word.
Quoting a picture and having it show does not consume additional bandwidth. Options you have to improve navigation include:1) brushing up or down on your touchpad if using a laptop rather than scrolling to make things go by faster. 2) Configuring the settings in your forum account to show 20 posts per page instead of 10. You then spend half as much time flipping through pages of posts.
Personally I think asking for critique (expecting a mix of negative and positive) is the best approach. Some people do that. While we seem to have groupthink on some topics, image aesthetics is not one of them. We have grand landscape f64 adherents, dystopian scifi themed tin typists, pictorialists, post modern Shore deadpan, and everything in between. Every design rule meants to be broken. What one person says is too dark is an obscure homage to something epic from 110 years ago... A color cast might be a scanning / adjustment error or someone's choice. To address those differences without being asked is to come up to a stranger and imply that you know their stuff better than them and want to be right. Doesn't go over so well and not so great for community. Say something nice and it's appreciated or provides encouraging feedback. It's not just the other side of the coin with positive/negative critique. It's a good time with tons of creative choices for photography.
If you have the opportunity to meet and spend time with some members here and know the path they are on for photography, it's good and you could then ask their advice and make use of it.
Oren Grad
11-Dec-2018, 20:21
If you'd like a thoughtfully critical evaluation of your own pictures, feel free to start a thread with an example and ask for that. If you're not sure that people will understand exactly what you're looking for, then by all means spell it out. You can include "critique" in the thread title if you'd like the thread to be easily recognized as having that focus.
If the issue is that you would like others to submit their work for critique, why not lead by example? Start a thread about some of your own work, and show that there is something to be gained.
The mix of threads here reflects the interests of our actively-participating members. We will have critique threads on an ongoing basis only if on the one hand there is a large enough group of members who want to participate in such threads, and on the other there are enough participating members who are sufficiently effective as critics that others find the experience of reading their observations worthwhile.
The only way to find out if it will work is to try.
Re the practice of "quoting" pictures, there are inevitably tradeoffs. It's a nuisance to have to keep flipping back to another screen in order to see what people are talking about, or to launch/manage multiple instances of threads in order to keep the target pictures available for reference in separate windows. It gets especially tricky in long threads where discussions of different pictures mingle and you can't just hop to the beginning of the thread. You can make it a bit easier by having a dedicated thread for each critique "session", but then you lose the benefit of having established threads for specific subjects or genres.
Thanks to all for the feed back. Perhaps the simplest solution to my concerns is to clarify what critique and discussion are in the Image sharing guidelines. I could offer some up if that would be helpful.
I am sorry I was not clear enough in my original post. Nearly all of what Oren Grad mentions as possible issues are not mine. I was mainly confused about what exactly was meant by critique and discussion.
Although not very active, I have posted images, and if I recall correctly, I always welcome comments. Perhaps I am weird, but I expect at least some negative comments, but I don't think I ever get any. For example, my most recent post of images was #13478, in Large Format Landscapes. These are from a study on long-term ecological changes I am working on, but I thought the series in that post could be interesting to photographers.
My background is in the sciences, and the usual custom is that comments on work are mostly negative, with the idea of improving the work rather than boosting the ego. I was also brought up this way. I mainly come to this site to learn, and I must admit I do not get much out of short, pleasant comments, either for my own images, or others'. But being nice to each other is very nice, and I would never want to see an end to that.
I rarely comment on others' images, and in only one case did I say anything negative (and I thought it was in a nice enough tone). As I mentioned in my original post, it seemed that the guidelines were not strictly enforced, so I did not think it mattered to say something that could sound negative.
Regarding the repeating images in replies; I get it now, not much of a problem, and thanks for the explanations.
One last thing: I am not sure what Mark Sawyer meant in his post, but I thought it was pretty funny, and I would still laugh if it was directed at me.
Pere Casals
12-Dec-2018, 03:02
1. Have a forum that allows critiques as a default
IMHO critiques have to be possible but not as a default. I'd say that there is no problem in even starting a thread "Images, interested in critique".
IMHO critique is very interesting for people like me that are learners because it allows to learn and acknowledge ways to improve, but some experienced people simply may want to show art, and in that case any critique becomes superfluous noise on the art. Perhaps art has to be admired, sometimes praised, and rarely commented.
Anyway one may ask the author in a PM or in the thread itself if it's a technical question, I guess...
What I agree is that a dedicated critique section would be very interesting for those wanting it, and it would require a moderation effort.
Oren Grad
12-Dec-2018, 03:09
Perhaps the simplest solution to my concerns is to clarify what critique and discussion are in the Image sharing guidelines.
The statement in our guidelines, "Critiques should only be offered if requested by the original poster", means simply that one should assume that posters in the image-sharing subforums are not looking for judgment on whether their work could be better, or advice on how to make it so, unless they explicitly ask for it. This is a rule of courtesy, nothing more. We're not trying to define distinctions between "critique" and "discussion" in any deeper way.
My background is in the sciences, and the usual custom is that comments on work are mostly negative, with the idea of improving the work rather than boosting the ego.
The custom here is different, because this is a different kind of community, with a different mix of purposes, inclinations and expectations, and a different set of lessons learned from experience.
I mainly come to this site to learn, and I must admit I do not get much out of short, pleasant comments, either for my own images, or others'.
To reiterate: if you'd like to see a different kind of image-discussion thread, create one - take the lead, and see whether others are interested in following.
BrianShaw
12-Dec-2018, 05:48
I’m very interested in learning more about that which you seek. To me critique runs the entire gamut from “I love/hate it” to an extensive artsy-fartsy analysis.
Example please!
Pere Casals
12-Dec-2018, 06:43
“I love/hate it” to an extensive artsy-fartsy analysis.
No... Of course we may have nasty critique, but it can also generate a rich debate from what everyone may learn and share points of view.
An author may explain what he did and why, and others may point how a master addressed a similar situation. It may be the right frame to share knowledge with examples, and points of view related to aesthetics. It requires respect.
A community may not be able proceed like this, or it may...
BrianShaw
12-Dec-2018, 06:55
No... Of course we may have nasty critique, but it can also generate a rich debate from what everyone may learn and share points of view.
An author may explain what he did and why, and others may point how a master addressed a similar situation. It may be the right frame to share knowledge with examples, and points of view related to aesthetics. It requires respect.
A community may not be able proceed like this, or it may...
Yes... between those two extremes is discussion,which could be positive, negative, ego-boosting, or combinations thereof... which maybe more valuable than the extremes!
But back to suggestion #2 of the OP for a moment. Another approach to image-sharing-only would be if the forum software settings allowed the thread originator to post a picture and lock the thread. Isn’t that capability allowed on For Sale postings?
Pere Casals
12-Dec-2018, 07:06
Yes... between those two extremes is discussion... which maybe more valuable than the extremes!
Of course, just praising all works (:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssta0_4GkRA) we have no rich debate... but we need environmental respect to go beyond that.
(Sorry, I love too much Taratino movies...)
hello mmerig
you may find that many people who post images on the internet really don't want more
than a " looks great " " hot model, where'd you find her" pat on the back sort of critique. people are doing
this photography-thing as a hobby, something to do for fun &c and they might not have really thick skin,
which is something people sometimes need for a critique.. not everyone who critiques an image will compliment
the buxom model or the nice lens, sharpness or no grain processing but will run amok ...
im not sure this site or many others for that matter will have many people uploading images for critique
if people give a constructive non platitudeous comments. in addition it is really hard to know where someone is coming from
if they just throw an image out there for critique. is the photograph part of an ongoing project? does the person have
extreme phobias about whatever subject they are tackling? do they want someone to shred them? do they sleepwalk with a camera ?
years ago i was approached by someone who asked me to critique an image. i had no idea where he was coming from
so... the critique i offered was pretty much middle of the road and i mentioned something about tonality and composition ... unfortunately
the person didn't like my critique and began a trolling campaign after that .. if i had thrown him under the bus
i can only imagine what would have happened ...
YMMV
Peter Mounier
12-Dec-2018, 08:49
My suggested improvement is to:
1. Have a forum that allows critiques as a default ...
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?98676-Images-FOR-CRITIQUE&highlight=critique
If you think you want to be a photographic critic you may wish to read about it.
Criticizing Photographs: An Introduction to Understanding Images Paperback – Jul 21 2005
by Terry Barrett
OR A NEWER VERSION
Criticizing Photographs Paperback – Mar 24 2011
by Terry Barrett Professor
To be properly critical one needs to know the intent of the photographer, which is seldom stated here. Otherwise we just talk about preferences of technique and beauty.
To be properly critical one needs to know the intent of the photograph.
Tin Can
12-Dec-2018, 09:58
Academics have something to say.
From Washington State University (https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/31/critique/)
"critique
A critique is a detailed evaluation of something. The formal way to request one is “give me your critique,” though people often say informally “critique this”—meaning “evaluate it thoroughly.” But “critique” as a verb is not synonymous with “criticize” and should not be routinely substituted for it. “Josh critiqued my backhand” means Josh evaluated your tennis technique but not necessarily that he found it lacking. “Josh criticized my backhand” means that he had a low opinion of it.
You can write criticism on a subject, but you don’t criticize on something, you just criticize it."
My opinion is, we are here to help each other and further our Large Format interests.
Leszek Vogt
12-Dec-2018, 11:23
Pardon if I sound like an absolutist, but in order to evaluate someone's images (or pretty much anything) one needs to have knowledge of the medium. Some people are educated in this area while others have an instinct. Just saying "nice color" hardly addresses the image (strengths or weaknesses) and usually it reveals the level of the onlooker.....and not necessarily the image.
Les
I've stated before that I think more discussion about photographs (not the technical stuff) should be made here. I think it should be the norm and not the exception. Due to the rules I often just don't post what I think is helpful dialog that could lead to a critique or discussion. Surface-level "nice work" is just left alone because it's not negative, I guess.
Some time ago I added the tag line to my signature you see below - "All comments and thoughtful critique welcome." I don't think this has increased the amount of critique I've gotten.
Remember, this forum is full of both hobbyists (used non-derogatorily, I just mean those who enjoy photography as a past-time) as well as those striving to be the best "artist" they can be. I use the term artist but let's not debate what that means...
Anyway - on the internet, there is a lack of body language, tone, etc. when writing simple replies. Due to this, I think critiques can sometimes come off as too professorial. There are certainly those here who can and should come off as such, because they've actually been teachers / professors of photography in a higher academic setting, but with the anonymity (relatively) of the forum, for the most part that's unknown. Also, I find that responding to critique can sometimes come off as challenging or prideful - but I think back-and-forth critique and discussion is a healthy part of the learning process. When I've sat in with critiques in photo classes the professor would often challenge the students to respond to his critiques and explain what was their intent. Sometimes this changed his viewpoint!
Also, good posts and thoughts above by Bill and Randy.
faberryman
12-Dec-2018, 12:45
Critiques at least countenance some criticism. Many would prefer only praise. I think honest criticism is helpful. At least I might learn something. How can you improve if you only hear "good shot". Of course it is better to hear constructive criticism than mean spirited criticism. And you don't have to agree with it.
callmebrick
12-Dec-2018, 12:57
Bandwidth aside, I find it tedious to wade through the same image many times to get to a new one, the ususal difference being a short comment below.
I really wish users would take the few seconds to edit out the image URL/embed when quoting.
Tin Can
12-Dec-2018, 15:52
I do sometimes, other times I like to repeat the image as I like it twice.
Not lazy...
We have enough 'rules'.
I really wish users would take the few seconds to edit out the image URL/embed when quoting.
rdenney
13-Dec-2018, 07:39
Here's the thing: Not everyone was happy hearing negative things about their photographs, and most negative comments about photographs have said more about the criticizer than the image.
So, what is to be gained by allowing critical comments? Photographers are offended by comments from people whose opinion they neither trust nor crave, and those who offer the comments are offended because their criticisms are usually met with approbation of one sort or another, including moderator deletion.
How do you attract critical review from those who you trust and whose opinion you crave? Not by posting the image on an internet forum. It too often becomes a test of the psychological toughness of the image poster and a challenge to Those Who Must Be Right to demonstrate how they can have something useful (read: critical) to say about anything.
Our guidelines have been variously construed. Some believe that the prohibition on criticism when not specifically allowed should apply to both positive and negative comments, based on the general (and, in could be argued, archaic) definition of the word. Some believe that even their negative comments, because they come from a source of honest expertise (as they see it), should be considered positive criticism.
There's just no way to parse that out in practice. So, here's how I do it: If the person who posted the photograph complains about a criticism, I delete it. If they don't complain, I take it as tacit acceptance of same. To me, that's the only practical approach. The poster can determine the thickness of their own skin, and the value of the comments they received for themselves.
In one recent example, the comment was probably based on the criticizer's poor monitor calibration. But do we really want the photo threads to become a discussion about monitor calibration? Another member complained to me that I should have deleted the positive comments, too. But I don't think anybody really wants that.
The point of image sharing is not to learn how to be a better photographer by having internet experts tell me how bad mine are. (For one thing, I already know that.) The point of image sharing is to bring people along on a journey, and we travel a path when people we trust are in front of us, leading the way. So, I love seeing superb images in the image-sharing forum--I think seeing those images provides all the instruction those forum threads can provide. We have other forums for how-tos.
This is not a case of providing a "safe place" for "snowflakes". I long ago posted one of my images of San Antonio Mission Concepcion, and received a comment about micro-contrast. It's been many years since that comment, but I still remember it, and not in a good way. Even though it may have been true (and I'm not remotely prepared to argue that it isn't), it was not received in a spirit of helpful encouragement. I'm sure the person who made the comment would claim a spirit of helpful encouragement, and that might have been his intent, but he can't know how I'll receive it. Am I a snowflake in need of a safe place? If so, we all do.
So, once again, my practice going forward: If I happen to see a comment that is clearly nasty, I might delete it on my own, but otherwise I will respond to complaints as being the primary evidence of the sort of criticism the guidelines disallow.
This is not an invitation to criticize freely and challenge the image poster to complain. Read what I wrote above and follow the principle.
Oren and Ralph might approach it differently.
Rick "doing his best" Denney
Peter Lewin
13-Dec-2018, 08:34
The point of image sharing is not to learn how to be a better photographer by having internet experts tell me how bad mine are. (For one thing, I already know that.) The point of image sharing is to bring people along on a journey, and we travel a path when people we trust are in front of us, leading the way. So, I love seeing superb images in the image-sharing forum--I think seeing those images provides all the instruction those forum threads can provide. We have other forums for how-tos.
Rick: In general I agree with your thoughtful approach, in summary to let the original poster determine whether to leave criticisms/suggestions attached to his or her post. However I disagree with one premise which I have cropped from your post.
In other sub-forums we specifically ask questions and look for responses, for example in the Darkroom sub-forums. I don't see the image sharing forums as any different in that regard. Many of us include the phrase "C&C welcome" below posted images, specifically because we are interested in comments and critiques. If I, for one, posted images but didn't want any response, I would view that as an exercise in ego fulfillment, nothing more than a desire to put my images out there in the ether. Even after almost 50 years of this hobby/passion (whatever it is to each of us) I can still learn, and still make adjustments.
Let me give one recent example. I posted several images I made on a vacation trip, and to my surprise received a suggestion from one of the most respected members of the Forum on possible improvements via cropping. Admittedly, from another member I might have simply said "ho-hum" and done nothing more. But in this case I decided to try the suggested crops. The exercise made me think about why I chose my original framing, and I did compare the revised versions. In the end I preferred my original and one of the suggested versions. The point is that I learned something, which was why I post images in the first place. This is exactly the same reason that I bring prints to the monthly meetings of my local Photographer's Forum, to hear comments and critiques.
Clearly there is a skill to useful critiques. While it is nice to hear that someone likes an image, it is more useful to know "why" they like it. Similarly, a criticism is only useful if it is followed by a suggestion as to how to improve the image. And of course the original poster must decide which comments he or she values. But I find the exercise very useful.
rdenney
13-Dec-2018, 10:20
Indeed there is skill to useful critiques. That skill was being displayed too rarely, which is why the guidelines are the way they are. Had that skill been routinely displayed, the unrest that led to the guideline wouldn’t have bubbled up.
An image is not a question, and being posted in a forum does not seem to me to imply one. In the regular forums, the question is usually explicit—there is a question mark—but even when not it is implied—“do you agree?” That’s why it’s a forum and not a blog.
But an image is a display of work, for sharing. I see no question mark, explicit or implied, unless it is added.
Rick “please invite criticism if you want it” Denney
Tin Can
13-Dec-2018, 10:44
I think critique is hard to understand as a teaching method until you experience how a paid expert does it.
Good teachers on any level do this.
The recipient of critique becomes empowered, to use the vernacular.
I relate it to improvisation, where each input is positively received, enhanced and provides a 'higher' dialogue.
Chicago's Dell Close (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Close) is a good example. I learned a lot from his teaching moments.
Steven Ruttenberg
13-Dec-2018, 13:07
Perhaps, the poster of an image simply wants to share their image. Tbey are not looking for a critique. However, if o e asks to be critiqued, it can be harsh, but respectful lest it turns away the one asking and causes them to give up their passion.
While I hate everything Hitler, imagine if if he had been accepted to the Vienna Art school? We might very well live in a different world. No WWII, possibly no concentration camps, etc.
My point is that, just because someone puts themselves out there looking for a critique, doesn't mean we act like
a@@holes and shred a persons work. I know many peoe who can't stand Ansel Adams work. Imagine where we would be had someone roasted him on his photos. They would still be great photos, but maybe he would have been content teaching piano his whole life.
Critiques should be asked for and given with respect. Also, the requester might give a critique of their image when they post up to start off the critique session.
My 3 pennies.
Pere Casals
14-Dec-2018, 04:50
Here's the thing: Not everyone was happy hearing negative things about their photographs, and most negative comments about photographs have said more about the criticizer than the image .....
This is, IMHO.
If one wants constructive and/or destructive critique about an image it's really easy to say it, it always can be good to have feedback, specially if wanting to learn.
But I feel that the general case is people wanting to share what they crafted, and not wanting a debate about they did, so to me the default context should be "if wanting critique just say it", as it is.
This thread had me thinking, and this morning I had an idea for a new image-sharing thread.
The idea: to have a "Your Best Photograph of [previous month]." Consent for constructive critiques would be implied and discussion of the technical and artistic elements encouraged. One photograph made or developed in the past month would be allowed per poster (I'm not a mod so this wouldn't be enforceable by me, but hopefully that would be understood and adhered to). New work only.
I'm on the way out the door for a day of freelance work so I'll make a thread tonight. Feel free to 'critique' the idea in the meantime ;).
as my "pal" did with me, how about just make contact with someone you want
a critique from send them the image / show it to them in person or online
and then wait for your unthoughtful/thoughtful response via email message pm
or meet up for tea, coffee, crumpets, meze plate, snacks, devil'd eggs, shrimp and dip
nachos, conversation, vino, brewskis &c..
Peter Lewin
14-Dec-2018, 06:28
I've gone through the image sharing sub-threads with new work when I signed on, about 7 this morning, and every one is full of "well done!" and other compliments. So do those who are suggesting limiting critiques unless requested also want to limit all the "attaboys" or only criticism? If that is the rule, then we could make it more explicit with " 'Likes Only, No Critiques' ".
Tin Can
14-Dec-2018, 06:49
A very wise suggestion!
Attaboy!
Not making fun of a good idea.
as my "pal" did with me, how about just make contact with someone you want
a critique from send them the image / show it to them in person or online
and then wait for your unthoughtful/thoughtful response via email message pm
or meet up for tea, coffee, crumpets, meze plate, snacks, devil'd eggs, shrimp and dip
nachos, conversation, vino, brewskis &c..
faberryman
14-Dec-2018, 07:18
I've gone through the image sharing sub-threads with new work when I signed on, about 7 this morning, and every one is full of "well done!" and other compliments. So do those who are suggesting limiting critiques unless requested also want to limit all the "attaboys" or only criticism? If that is the rule, then we could make it more explicit with " 'Likes Only, No Critiques' ".
Give a man a complement, flatter him for a day; teach a man to fish for compliments, flatter him for a lifetime.
invisibleflash
14-Dec-2018, 15:08
Just put an option on the post. Critique / No Critique.
Jac@stafford.net
14-Dec-2018, 15:54
It is easier to make a photo that speaks for itself, or not, than participate in the morass of competent criticism.
It is easier to make a photo that speaks for itself, or not, than participate in the morass of competent criticism.
Generally, don't ask many art critics or others that might tell you it's all Freudian... ;-)
Steve K
Louis Pacilla
14-Dec-2018, 17:06
Just put an option on the post. Critique / No Critique.
And all abide. Simple!
Steven Ruttenberg
14-Dec-2018, 18:15
This thread had me thinking, and this morning I had an idea for a new image-sharing thread.
The idea: to have a "Your Best Photograph of [previous month]." Consent for constructive critiques would be implied and discussion of the technical and artistic elements encouraged. One photograph made or developed in the past month would be allowed per poster (I'm not a mod so this wouldn't be enforceable by me, but hopefully that would be understood and adhered to). New work only.
I'm on the way out the door for a day of freelance work so I'll make a thread tonight. Feel free to 'critique' the idea in the meantime ;).
I like this idea. I am for it.
I like this idea. I am for it.
Done. For those who want to participate come on down.
Your Best Photograph from the Previous Month - Critique and Discussion Encouraged (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149540-Your-Best-Photograph-from-the-Previous-Month-Critique-and-Discussion-Encouraged)
Peter Lewin
14-Dec-2018, 21:30
Done. For those who want to participate come on down.
Your Best Photograph from the Previous Month - Critique and Discussion Encouraged (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149540-Your-Best-Photograph-from-the-Previous-Month-Critique-and-Discussion-Encouraged)
It will be interesting to see how this works. What I see as a downside is that people will take the image they have already posted (prior month) and which has received a bunch of "great photo" comments,, since it is the previous compliments which make it "your best photo from the prior month." Of course, if we are interested in comments on what might not be a magnificent image, we can continue to post those to the usual threads, and mark them "comments and critiques welcome."
I'm reminded of a business school lesson: in WWII they would watch the bombers coming back from missions, see where they had the most bullet holes, and reinforce those areas. Until someone pointed out that those were the non-critical areas, the ones which needed reinforcing were the areas where bullet holes prevented the bombers from making it back. The photographic analogy is that the photos which will most benefit from critique are those which are not the best, rather thant those which have already been praised multiple times.
That's a fair point Peter. I hope that perhaps people will post what they think is their best photo, rather than the one that garnered the most community praise previously. However, I will say that sometimes a photograph gets a lot of generic "good work" comments and I fail to see why, so posting such an image in that thread will also give the opportunity to address that and perhaps give a different viewpoint.
Tin Can
15-Dec-2018, 09:23
Regarding the 'critique' I just posted on the image thread about these 2 images (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149540-Your-Best-Photograph-from-the-Previous-Month-Critique-and-Discussion-Encouraged&p=1473640&viewfull=1#post1473640), I need to say a few things.
Are critiques on this forum about line, form and tone only or is content also an important factor?
If words mean something...what do images mean...
If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think we exposed a lot about our ideas of beauty in the "will you pose nude thread (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?20734-3-Would-you-yourself-pose-nude&p=191645&viewfull=1#post191645).
Randy, I think the answer is a resounding 'yes' but not all images do or need to say something explicitly. Though some tend to read more into things than others. I saw your comments and will have to consider your reading of the images before commenting. A little busy today photographing but I am on lunch break on my phone :).
Tin Can
15-Dec-2018, 10:22
I checked your weather and thought you may be out and about.
I check weather all over the world. :cool:
Randy, I think the answer is a resounding 'yes' but not all images do or need to say something explicitly. Though some tend to read more into things than others. I saw your comments and will have to consider your reading of the images before commenting. A little busy today photographing but I am on lunch break on my phone :).
Unfortunately it's commercial work. Light was beautiful but I'm stuck shooting digital portraits for a company.
Mark Sawyer
15-Dec-2018, 11:07
Done. For those who want to participate come on down.
Your Best Photograph from the Previous Month - Critique and Discussion Encouraged (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149540-Your-Best-Photograph-from-the-Previous-Month-Critique-and-Discussion-Encouraged)
While I completely support the concept, I think the structural problem is that, if you get a dozen people to submit, there will be a dozen different critiques going on at once in the same thread. Wish I had a solution...
Kerosene Hat
15-Dec-2018, 17:18
There's a significant difference between "critique" and "constructive criticism", both of which, thoughtfully rendered and put forth bring value to the recipient, versus non-value added sniping and petty remarks. Of course, this all comes down on the specific people involved; not everyone cares to be cordial or add value in their posts.
For me, personally, it is the non-value added and, for lack of a better term, "cheap shots" by some on others that is the problem. Personally, I've had cheap shots leveled at me twice, once a technical put-down for sharing (for sharing's own sake) a (not the world's most creative or strong) LF picture of a flower in a "flowers" thread. The second time was simply a petty shot that, were the poster cordial or considerate, could have been spared and brought zero value as a critique (truly the epitome of a comment worthy of deletion). I think that particular exchange has been alleduded to in this thread.
IMHO, it isn't so much about skin thickness or snowflakes, as much as it is about conducting oneself appropriately in a (free) environment where ideas and images are exchanged, and where the exchange should, ideally, be helpful and useful. By all means, thoughtful input should almost always be welcome. However careless or callous input should be avoided; that's just good manners.
Also, not every thread here is "show me your portfolio"; they are threads for sharing, and the default rule is not to render criticism unless it's sought. This should not be difficult for posters to respect, but it seems it often is, although Rick and team do a great job moderating.
Personally, I get more from seeing strong images (and discussing what makes them strong) than debating colorspace or monitor calibrations, or if a JPG is too compressed. And if someone wants CC or critique, they can easily invite it.
I'm not so curious in CC myself, though I am curious how others may interpret one of my negatives or vice versa. A "processing swap" thread, where users swap images and interpret others' images might be interesting, but that's off topic for this thread and I'm meandering again...
Tin Can
16-Dec-2018, 07:23
Some are presenting their best print with a long personal critique. A defense?
I think any art should be approached without a priori knowledge, such as the artist talking about their work before presenting.
When visiting art museums and for profit galleries I avoid reading the explanatory text until I experience the art.
Some time ago I started an image thread which requested no text, no comments.
It died...
I can't even find it
rdenney
16-Dec-2018, 10:59
Some are presenting their best print with a long personal critique. A defense?
I think any art should be approached without a priori knowledge, such as the artist talking about their work before presenting.
When visiting art museums and for profit galleries I avoid reading the explanatory text until I experience the art.
Some time ago I started an image thread which requested no text, no comments.
It died...
I can't even find it
A trombone player who was professionally trained but unable to win an audition decided to take lessons from noted Chicago Symphony tuba player Arnold Jacobs, who was also a world-class pedagog. Jacobs told the trombonist that he was more expressive with words than with his music, and he communicated more clearly using words. The trombonist abandoned his musical aspirations and became a successful journalist.
Sometimes I feel as though I explain my photographs better than I make them. So, I stopped doing it. I just put together a book of Alaska photos—so far just for me to test whether it’s worth trying to peddle—and my only explanation is a three-page preface that is unrelated to the individual photographs, and some notes at the back that provide no artistic explanation. I didn’t even title them.
Rick “who uses words for a living and doesn’t want to turn that into a crutch” Denney
Randy - I personally feel commentary on what the photographer was aiming for, in a thread for thoughtful critique, is good. Of course, you can just look at the image and make some comments based on your initial viewing, and only then go back and read the words and perhaps add to the critique. One could also post an image sans commentary and ask for critique in a vacuum, if they want to see if the viewer sees their intent.
This is not an advocacy for words + pictures in a gallery setting. Certainly there is a time and a place.
I am reminded of some photos I posted here on the forum that made people very mad for their own personal reasons, and I was accused of being this or that (both in response to the images and personally via PM and email). I consciously avoided making any statements about my personal opinions and therefore got attacked by everyone...
Peter De Smidt
16-Dec-2018, 21:00
Not quite everyone ;)
You're right, it was wrong of me to say that! :) Just a lot of folks.
Merg Ross
16-Dec-2018, 21:51
Some time ago I started an image thread which requested no text, no comments.
It died...
I can't even find it
Hey Randy, I was thinking about that old thread today. I contributed, and thought it was a terrific idea. Time to bring it back!
Some time ago I started an image thread which requested no text, no comments.
It died...
I can't even find it
Found it:
LF image only, no written comments, reply by image only (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?121575-LF-image-only-no-written-comments-reply-by-image-only)
Just a few more comments --
Oren Grad provides more clarification in Post #9 on what critique and discussion mean. Another sentence like this in the guideline would be useful. To paraphrase what I mentioned earlier, I don't have a big hankering to provide critiques or receive them, I just did not understand how the the forum really worked.
Apparently, not many people want a critique beyond a simple complement. Even so, the thread that Peter Mounier (post #15) referred to is one that specifically allows critiques. If I need a critique, or want to read some, I'll probably use this one rather than start a new thread as suggested. This thread did not come up in my search of "Critique", and the last post was in 2014. Another way, assuming that critiques are important enough to enough people, is to have a forum on it rather than individual threads in the "Image Sharing (LF) and Discussion" forum, and have critiques as a default and make it clear in the title.
Finally, I am sorry for my post that was an unwanted critique. My apology is especially to the person that posted the image that I commented on. As this thread ensued, I realized (via post #23) that my comment was worse than I thought, because the person that posted the image asked the moderator to remove my post.
Thanks for all of the thoughtful comments; I learned a lot.
Tin Can
17-Dec-2018, 07:37
Interesting that the last image posted in the no text thread (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?121575-LF-image-only-no-written-comments-reply-by-image-only&p=1292360&viewfull=1#post1292360) was replaced by a default image of text!
Photos with text have a long history and use in photo art. Hendrik's work is always appreciated even when it's missing.
Note, that many post images from offsite servers.
I once was against that process but have changed my mind as the forum itself has lost hosted images. Digital is not permanent. yet...
I now post almost every photo from Flickr as it makes it so easy to size without a editor.
I started the no text thread with a virtual 8X10. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?121575-LF-image-only-no-written-comments-reply-by-image-only&p=1235376&viewfull=1#post1235376
Thanks Bryan!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.