Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm ) [Archive]

olegkasko

30-Nov-2018, 12:54

I was looking for Fujinon C 600mm F11.5 and the lenses are sold for crazy $8000 on eBay.
Recently I found Chinese brand Kang Rinpoche that produce the same lens and they say the lens is even better than the original.
There are even some tests on their taobao page, if they can be trusted: LINK (https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.w11260426-12620324471.27.737a6dccqk9x64&id=582696368010)
The lens with copal costs ¥13800 it is about $1900 (¥ 8800 without copal). Do you think it is worth buying? It is cheaper but it is some Chinese product and I doubt the quality.
Perhaps it is better to buy a cheaper older original Fujinon? It is about $3000 on eBay.

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/2680615720/O1CN01VXUrxZ1s7nyaPLJgn_!!2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/2680615720/O1CN01EicfZ41s7nyb0fJFj_!!2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/2680615720/O1CN01hMFCnB1s7nycSNkk9_!!2680615720.jpg

https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/2680615720/O1CN01YCHPOQ1s7nyaI1kU8_!!2680615720.jpg

I found a forum thread about the lens and there are these test images and more samples http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1788951-3-1-1.html
they were at Photokina with the lens: http://forum.xitek.com/thread-1788951-1-1-1.html

Pere Casals

30-Nov-2018, 14:13

Beyond resolving power, a Fujinon C is EBC multicoated, what coating has the Kang Rinpoche ?

Then, for what you want the a C 600 ?

It's great to see that choice, but at $4000 CatLabs (https://www.catlabs.info/product/brand-new-c-600mm-f11-5-lens-copal-3-shutter-fuji-fujinon-design) should be offering extensive technical information and a guarantee that samples have a consistent performance level. Fujinon LF glass was known to have very good QC with samples delivering a consistent level of performance.

Corran

2-Dec-2018, 11:27

Assuming you can order from Taobao, the exchange from the price in yuan is about $2,000, half the price quoted above.

JimL

2-Dec-2018, 22:06

Also available from the manufacturer on ebay (seller name 3s-krpc) for $2k.

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 01:24

Also available from the manufacturer on ebay (seller name 3s-krpc) for $2k.

But this is not including shutter and (I guess) expenses at customs.

IIRC the last new copal 3 made were well over $1000...

The ebay offer requires you send a shutter to china to be mounted (aperture scale...) in the glass, so also add two fast and reliable overseas shippings...

So the catlabs offer is representative for the actual cost, plus regular commercial margin that may allow to provide a close customer support.

Of course by you sending a used shutter to china and dealing with customs you may save money, but less than it looks, and if having a problem you don't have a local dealer.

JimL

3-Dec-2018, 02:55

I was looking at this listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/KangRinpoche-S-600mm-F11-5-MC-Large-Format-Lens/192743724570?hash=item2ce06bd61a:g:~LkAAOSwlypcAiew:rk:1:pf:0), which appears to include the shutter. Under quantity it says 10 are available. I couldn't see the listing you were looking at, and I would expect the price without shutter to be less.

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 03:19

You are right, it includes a used shutter, and ships from Hong Kong...

And the green reflections points it's MC...

hmmm, I guess they selected well the design to start with... only 4 elements and no balsam

It's amazing to see that... world is changing.

One of these days we may see a copal 3 electronic shutter from them, it won't be a surprise.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 04:46

It's amazing to see that... world is changing.

One of these days we may see a copal 3 electronic shutter from them, it won't be a surprise.

That's the intriguing part - if they can cobble together a whole Fujinon 600C why don't they do the same with a Copal 3 shuttter? I wonder. Did they suddenly get conscientious about the intellectual property?

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 04:56

That's the intriguing part - if they can cobble together a whole Fujinon 600C why don't they do the same with a Copal 3 shuttter? I wonder. Did they suddenly get conscientious about the intellectual property?

Patents expire, or even you can file a new patent over a design if it is an improvement.

Of course making a size 3 shutter with a new electronic drive today would be the easiest way (IMHO), and this would not be prevented by other's industrial property.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 05:03

Patents expire, or even you can file a new patent over a design if it is an improvement.

Of course making a size 3 shutter with a new electronic drive today would be the easiest way (IMHO), and this would not be prevented by other's industrial property.

If the Copal is an expired patent then the question stands even more - why don't they make it together with the lens? Much easier than buying used shutters and putting them to the new lens. And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 05:16

Furthermore, if they are serious about serial production of the lens - in that case they needed to buy all standing stock of used Copal 3 shutters in the world! How otherwise could they arm their lenses and sell them? Something doesn't add up in it.

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 05:26

If the Copal is an expired patent then the question stands even more - why don't they make it together with the lens? Much easier than buying used shutters and putting them to the new lens. And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

Are the Size 3 shutter threads protected ? if not the rest is state of the art.

And even easier than inventing (ouch!) a new electronic shutter - needing a control box nobody has... It intrigues me.

I think it can be done without a control box, the electronics can be embedded inside, it can be regular shutter mechanism but substituting all clockwork by a tinny electronic microcontroller and an small actuator for triggering the closing movement. It would also be needed a little sensor that tells that the shutter is open, that sensor can be optical detecting the end of travel condition for the blades. This is how I imagined that way when playing with a disassembled shutter...

I guess that if clockwork mechanics can be avoided then such a project could be straighter.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 05:43

Are the Size 3 shutter threads protected ? if not the rest is state of the art.
I think it can be done without a control box, the electronics can be embedded inside, it can be regular shutter mechanism but substituting all clockwork by a tinny electronic microcontroller and an small actuator for triggering the closing movement. It would also be need a little sensor that tells that the shutter is open, that sensor can be optical detecting the end of travel condition for the blades. This is how I imagined that way when playing with a disassembled shutter...

I guess that if clockwork mechanics can be avoided then such a project could be straighter.

Either the whole shutter design is still protected (patents can be prolonged!) or not, has nothing to do with its threads.
An electronic shutter also needs the speeds input part and its actuator is not a miniature part either. In fact, electronic shutters make little sense for LF cameras not used in a studio. It just adds another part (the controlling box, batteries) to carry in the field and the accuracy of the shutter speeds is more than enough with a well functioning mechanical shutter.

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 06:16

The speed input can be anyway in a lever on the shutter, battery would very small
And accuracy guanteed...

Also it's the way cost can be low for a low run production, my bet is that if they end offering their own shutters those would be of an electronic design

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 08:24

I know - the proverbial piece of cake. Until you try to make it, that is. Don't forget - when electronic shutters started to be produced for LF lenses, the industry was also capable of miniaturization. Yet, somehow, the control box did not find its way to the shutter lever... :(

Dan Fromm

3-Dec-2018, 08:46

consummate_fritterer

3-Dec-2018, 08:47

Speed control could easily be on the shutter via small push buttons and alpha-numeric display. There's no need for a lever. Ease-of-use could be enhanced by a wired or wireless remote. The aperture could be controlled similarly. No matter what they do, if they do produce shutters, I'd plead with them to make nice ROUND apertures with many curved blades.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 08:58

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 09:03

Funny, Compur did it.

See, e.g., https://web.archive.org/web/20181203154020/https://www.ebayshopkorea.com/main/view?itemID=222563769934 for #1 and https://web.archive.org/web/20181203154232/https://www.catlabs.info/product/rodenstock-apo-ronar-360mm-f9-lens-in-electronic-compur-3-shutter for #3.

You may have been thinking of Ilex/Melles Griot, Rollei or Schneider electronic shutters.

While you're right I was thinking of Rollei etc. el. shutters still the battery compartment doesn't seem to be - very small. That piece of cake has yet to be baked, I'm afraid. But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 09:10

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 09:20

Nice shutters!

In fact it can be done with a NEC555 a transistor and some passive componets, but today a microcontroller is cheaper to use...

I have no doubt it can be done. If NASA needed it, it would be there with no problem. In the real world, however, where even en official (Copal) manufacturer leaves the field, what chances are that there will be another one who will miniaturize shutters, making them electronic ones for industry that is on the way out? It's nice to dream but look at the reality and see that all paraphernalia for LF photography are beasts in danger of extinction. That puts a different light on it, doesn't it? The Norwegian wood is good but so far there are new lenses without shutters - and even that is a phenomenon out of this world.

Dan Fromm

3-Dec-2018, 09:34

But as I said, much more intriguing is to make lenses without shutters when they need one. Do they really think people will buy another lens with a Copal 3 to scavenge it in order to buy a lens they want to have? That way of doing business is most intriguing to me!

On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 09:42

On the one hand, making lens cells or lens cells mounted in barrels for LF cameras doesn't seem to have good long term prospects. On the other hand, there are quite a few lenses in shutters and some of us have been scavenging shutters from them for years. Probably can't go on forever, but neither will we.

Dan, that doesn't solve the intrigue. What you can do with a good reason as an individual amateur, you cannot do as a viable business firm. I would love to know what are the production numbers for this lens. The quality seems to be there but who can afford the production of a few dozens of them? And who can make them in thousands without the proper shutter? Something simply doesn't add up.

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 09:54

Pfsor, I would never said that I would see a chinese copy (perhaps good) of the Fujinon C 600, would you ?

It's hard to predict future, in theory film photography should be extinct by now, but there is a 7% yearly growth. The Arri Alexa camera had to be "the last nail in the coffin of film cinematography" 9 years ago, but (2019) Star Wars IX is being shot with film... and the Alexa may make the pre-shots to prepare for the real Kodak Vision 3 shootings.

Vynil records had to disapear decades ago, but see UK sales, for example:

185056

Vynil new LP sells reached 16 million units and $395 million in revenue last year...

So... who knows ?

At the end IMHO there is a need for new shutters, if someone finds the way to make a cost effective product in small scale production conditions...

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 10:05

Pere, if they found a viable way of producing the extinct Fujinon 600C, then there would be hope, that with the same business model they can produce whatever else falls into the extinction pit. But something tells me, they don't have the secret yet. There must be another reason why they think it can be viable. Only future will tell us, that's for sure.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 10:12

In fact, thinking of it, I suspect that some firm produces the lens as a side dish to their normal production (industrial lenses for ex.) And they hope, the numbers will pay in the end. But how many can they sell without the shutter and how many will sell with a scavenged shutter I would not like to predict. Most probably we will not see a second run of these...

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 10:37

Pfsor, we don't know it...

IMHO we are not well aware about LF activity in China, many forums cannot be even reached, and google translate from chinese it's hard to understand... but I'd say that LF has a significative growth there, and poulation is 1400 million people there...

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 10:46

Growth you say. In phone cameras surely. In the hand of everybody :) and growing...

Corran

3-Dec-2018, 10:58

Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/videos/vb.186040714921338/202961587250726

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 11:00

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 11:15

In phones, see Antutu benchmark, now best scores are for chinese brands...

but who else makes now C 600 glass ? also see the ShenHao offer... I've you can find chinese forums you will see that there is an internal demand, and strongs local societies.

Just don't let yourself be fooled by the demand too much. As soon as they will have more money in their hands their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff, as everywhere else. So far they must be looking for the cheaper alternative... Doesn't the phone craze tell you something?

MAubrey

3-Dec-2018, 11:24

Pere Casals

3-Dec-2018, 11:36

their interest will quickly turn to the new digital stuff

In this case it's the counter, they come from making money from accessories for digital cameras:

185068

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 12:00

Well, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on this. I don't very much enjoy lugging out my Ronar 600mm and packard shutter and this is definitely viable alternative at a good price.

I have a spare copal 3 lying around, too.

I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

MAubrey

3-Dec-2018, 13:17

I hope they will have the idea to make the 450C variant. I have the Fujinon 600C - one of my most used lenses.

That would be very appealing. And Copal #1's are in far more abundance, too.

Pfsor

3-Dec-2018, 13:36

Indeed.

Drew Wiley

3-Dec-2018, 19:53

Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not? I have the real deal and wouldn't want to gamble on a knock-off. Sometimes ridiculous asking prices appear on the web auction site by certain dealers. People rarely actually pay those ridiculous sums.

Peter De Smidt

3-Dec-2018, 20:29

Perhaps our resident lens designer would think about making a comparable lens where the buyers supply their own shutters. The going prices might make a small run feasible.

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 01:57

Who knows if it's qualitatively equivalent to a Fuji C or not?

Drew, still we don't know, first reports point it's a fine lens, we'll see...

But also let me add that today China has many high end lens manufacturing plants, rather than mass production we speak about massive mass production...

An example is a company named Lens Technology, founded by Zhou Qunfei (Hunan) only 12 years ago, the world's richest woman whose fortune is self made as stated by Forbes, 80,000 employees, selling $11 billion yearly.

In such an efficient industrial environment grinding the 4 elements of a C is a joke.

Then we have the fact that today's manufacturing tolerances are much narrower than when the C was discontinued.

So we'll see what Rinpoche is selling, but potentially it can be a fine product.

Steve Goldstein

4-Dec-2018, 05:14

THE BELOW IS PURE SPECULATION - I DON'T WANT TO START ANY RUMORS.

Is it not possible that someone in China has contracted with Fuji for a private-label run of the 600mm to be supplied in barrel? I saw an internet rumor that one of the big German dealers (Greiner???) did this recently with Rodenstock for some Apo-Sironar-S lenses. It would be a good deal for Fuji as they would sell the whole run straight off, thus having no worries about shutters or inventory.

We'd probably have no way to find out.

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 05:34

Steve, at least the coatings are different, it looks, the green reflections of the chinese sample suggests a multi-coating, but not the Fujinon EBC one.

They picked a design that's easy to replicate, 4 air spaced elements (I guess all spherical surfaces)... you send the sample elements to some chinese facility and you get exact copies of high quality made with high end machinery with ultimate performance... with 10% to 20% of the cost than if you do that in a western country... this is the way the world turns today.

If they could identify the specific Schott or Hoya glass references for each element... then just grinding they had it done.

Drew Wiley

4-Dec-2018, 11:53

Not so fast. I've admittedly never seen one of these lenses. But time and again, I've been involved in situations where the Chinese precisely cloned the look of something relatively expensive, right down to illegally pirated brand and patent stamping, and the product turned out to be utter junk - looked very very good, but fell apart quickly. It's the ten buck Rolex watch story. I'm not saying that is automatically true this instance. But I sure wouldn't buy something like this without doing serious homework first. Fourn element lenses are the easiest to make. Bromwell and others imported four-element replacements for Commercial Ektars at reasonable pricing; but he told me in person that it was important to understand that these were decent "general purpose lenses", and not necessarily equivalent to the original for specialized applications. That kind of honesty is necessary. China has by far the biggest
optical manufacturing facilities in the world. A single plant not far from where the famous terra cotta warrior statues were uncovered employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc, and no doubt certain private-label lenses - usable products, but not top-tier. The relation to specialized glass types and exact coating can be a complex one. It not like a pancake recipe.

Tin Can

4-Dec-2018, 12:31

Yes, I reluctantly visit FB occasionally as we are often trapped or have no choice, especially if the link is not obviously FB. I still demure.

However, it does happen that some links give us good data.

The ULF lens seems to be pinhole and the well done news video shows the history of camera obscura visually. Audio is native.

I also notice the photographer and newswoman are both wearing the latest plastic eyeglass frames that many USA news people wear.

All it takes is a bit more news exposure and China may embrace LF and buy it all.

Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/videos/vb.186040714921338/202961587250726

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 13:26

employs over 30,000 people, and makes of the world's student-grade microscopes, amateur telescopes, survey optics, etc,

Drew, take a look, please:

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/design/reverse-engineering/
(https://web.archive.org/web/20180426115629/https://www.shanghai-optics.com/design/reverse-engineering/)

They have an Optotech machine for Asph. : https://www.shanghai-optics.com/components/aspheric-lenses/ge-aspheric-lens/

Other reading:
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/design/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/components/
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/assembly/

hmmm, these are not microscopes for kids... https://www.shanghai-optics.com/assembly/microscope-objectives/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/assembly/microscope-objectives/ultra-long-wd-18mm-100x-objective/

https://www.shanghai-optics.com/about-us/resources/case-studies-of-optical-reverse-engineering/

Drew Wiley

4-Dec-2018, 14:13

Pere - the same companies like the huge one in Xian, China that I just described are capable of making many different levels of quality. The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically. And when I state that I'd want to do some homework before dropping money on a lens, it doesn't mean a few minutes of web surfing. As far as China embracing LF, it's been there all along. Among the international tourists I encounter both in this area on the coast and inland, the Chinese are the most likely to be familiar with the specific equipment they see me using. Some of them are very wealthy; and they are in this game, they're probably not buying Chinese gear themselves. I ran into one earlier this year in a parking lot at Pt Reyes. Unlike most, he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 14:28

The links you provide do not answer the given question specifically.

Drew, I know some people that dealed with that particular company.

he spoke no English, except for, "Sinar?" while giving me a thumbs up.

Their headquaters in the USA are in NJ, Midwest office is in CO, and Westcoast office is in Milpitas, CA
https://www.shanghai-optics.com/about-us/contact-us/

Pfsor

4-Dec-2018, 14:47

Pere, I start to wonder what your commission is...:)

Mark Sampson

4-Dec-2018, 14:55

I have no doubt that the Chinese optical industry can produce first-class lenses if they choose. But equally, no doubt they want to make a profit. The market for ULF film camera lenses has to be tiny- see Schneider's efforts from a few years back. Where's the (potential) profit here?
Perhaps this lens is a design re-purposed from a different project. Or a vanity production by a very profitable company? Perhaps some brave soul on this forum will buy one, try it out, and post their results.

Drew Wiley

4-Dec-2018, 15:04

Well then, that's a good start. It can be a nightmare placing contracts with Chinese manufacturers, though Indian ones are worse; their websites promise anything, but more often than not, one has to repeatedly travel to China in person to iron out misunderstandings, and even to locate a source that doesn't automatically default to bait and switch quality. But merely having a sales office in our area is no guarantee either. We're at the epicenter of industrial espionage! - or in a positive sense, companies try to get a legitimate foothold here even though they still have relatively little to offer. They're seeking financing from local venture capitalists. Horrible products often have rather slick professional marketing superstructure in this country, in many cases, sales companies that represent many different brands, who might or might not know specifics. No different than going to a big trade show. Even when camera and darkroom companies did that about once a year in this area, five out of six representatives at the booths were idiots that sold washing machines the previous month, used cars before that, soup can labels before that.... Then you'd get lucky and track down the guy who actually knew his products. It's a lot of work, sometimes. Fortunately, I'm not shopping for this kind of lens, since I already have some. The other wild card is the amount of markup that goes to distributorship, and then again potentially to retail. For instance, the division of Nikon that handled survey optics demanded a ridiculously high margin of profit at the US level, and therefore sold almost nothing. Cameras and lenses were independent of that branch of importing and did quite well, but at lower margins of profit. And fierce competition among multiple dealers kept retail prices within range. So the asking price doesn't necessarily reflect realistic differences in manufacturing cost. Just like the Japanese decades ago, the quality of Chinese goods might gradually increase. Their metallurgy is still substandard. The shutter on that lens says, Made in Japan, so is presumably a
real Copal. But I don't take anything for granted. Companies like Fuji have earned their reputation. When a new player is in town, or in town only briefly, best to ask as many questions as possible. Take care.

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 16:02

Their metallurgy is still substandard.

Drew, they have all quality levels, from optimal cost to aerospace grade performance. Still (IMHO) they are focused in the market segments allowing the greatest market growth.

But about the Rinpoche, of course it's soon to say what it is, just telling my opinion that it has the potential to be fine lens, we'll see...

Where's the (potential) profit here?

Optical glass has a minimum cost of some $15 per lb, a good design may be able to avoid any raw glass over $75 per lb... so the profit would be related in having costs for an small scale production that are not that far from those for large runs.

IMHO with that project they are to learn. They are engaging in a market that has been abandoned by the well stablished manufacturers... they have no competition and they can focus in some niches, but may be this will prepare them for MF glasses for digital backs, or to compete in the Machine Vision market aganist Linos/Rodenstock and Japan equivalents. They don't do stupid things, if they do that then a profit may be there, soon or late.

Just speculating...

Drew Wiley

4-Dec-2018, 17:27

Pere, certain types of optical glass can be horrendously expensive, and other specialized types will never be made again due to either extreme cost in a diminished market or environmental and workplace restrictions based on hazardous glass ingredients. I'm certain this is behind certain classic Fuji lenses being discontinued quite awhile ago, independent or marketing issues. And to a certain extent, it seems to be specialized glass types that alllow innovation. Aspheric design gets awfully expensive on larger lenses. Of course, you can get almost anything made for a high enough price. But no ordinary photographer has that kind of money. I find it impossible
to believe there's a substantial market for a Fujinon 600 C clone. A few ULF types can use em; but that's an extremely limited market; and a few 8x10 users like me find em useful. And right now there's a temporary glut of decent used ones up for sale, which doesn't forebode any big additional demand at the moment. Maybe they could do like Cooke and announce potential limited runs in advance, with select dealers taking a deposit. But they'd have to establish a reliable reputation first. Keeping shutters in manufacture is the bigger challenge.

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 18:03

I find it impossible to believe there's a substantial market for a Fujinon 600 C clone.

hmmm... it's an ideal glass for ULF... anybody purchasing a (Shanghai made) ShenHao 7x17", 11x14" or 12x20" may want one...

If there was no demand the beyond $3000 prices for used C 600 units at ebay would not be possible...

If you review a bit the chinese forums (google translate :)) you will see that this glass generated a lot of conversations.

certain types of optical glass can be horrendously expensive,

Yes... but regular LF glasses relied many times in quasi-simetry for accurate corrections, few included ED glass, like Sironar S or Nikkor T, and probably only in the front element (I guess). Many designs use affordable glass, another thing was retail price...

Pfsor

4-Dec-2018, 18:27

Pere, I hate to brake your enthusiasm, but get back on the Earth. It's not that every 2nd Chinese family wants to purchase the 600C lens for their domestic ULF camera. With used Copal shutters the production must be very limited, even more without them. Even if Fujinon were still producing them, do you really think they would be submerged by the Chinese demand? In that case they would gladly produce them for their Chinese brothers and even sisters in business for the original price of 600 $ I bought it for...
The Chinese production of this lens is surely not a sure sign of an ULF revolution in the Chinese mass photography. Don't fool yourself in that regard.
As you would say - just MHO. :)

Pere Casals

4-Dec-2018, 18:39

but get back on the Earth

Pfsor, I've no clue about if they are to sell 10, 50 or 200... what is true is that they are offering new C 600 copies, and want it or not these are remarkable news in today's LF situation.

Pfsor

4-Dec-2018, 18:44

Just sleep over it... It'll will seem less remarkable tomorrow...:)

Lachlan 717

4-Dec-2018, 20:33

Pfsor, I've no clue about if they are to sell 10, 50 or 200... what is true is that they are offering new C 600 copies, and want it or not these are remarkable news in today's LF situation.

As an ULF user, I, too, am interested in this lens. I’ve had absolutely no issues dealing with Chinese camera makers, so would welcome their efforts with this (and potentially other) homage lenses.

And I don’t really care what the sideline keyboard warriors/provocators say about this lens, nor the state of Chinese usage. (FWIW, I’m sure that Ilford would be well positioned to comment on this usage). The proof will be in the images it produces.

Drew Wiley

4-Dec-2018, 21:07

This kind of mfg is not like some small family cabinet shop making cameras. So if you don't care about statistical risks, Lachlan, you're welcome to put your own money on the line and find out the facts. Maybe you could arrange a hands-on, no-risk trial of the product. That still wouldn't answer the question of serial quality control or just how similar or not it might be to the real Fuji lens. I'd rather see an optical engineer do the assessment. But a potential user has a valid angle of opinion too, at least of "good enough".
But how can I say anything specific about such a lens? I've never seen one, shot one. Has anyone??? That's the whole problem.

Corran

4-Dec-2018, 21:38

For those interested, this is a direct posting of one "sample image" from the lens, taken direct from that Chinese forum. I'm not entirely sure what format he shot this on but surely the field of view seems like 8x10 or larger. Click the thumbnail to open up a larger image:

http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/201809/212/21232/thumb_21232_1536837883.jpg (http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/201809/212/21232/21232_1536837883.jpg)

Of course, one can say that this small scan doesn't show much, and you could even say, perhaps this image is "faked." But it's something.

Personally, I'm not much of a long-lens guy, but if a 600mm that I could use on my 8x20 dropped in my lap, I'd happily take it. At the price w/o a shutter (I have a spare Copal 3) it's still way more than I would drop on a long lens, especially when there are other lenses in that focal length that would probably work just fine.

Now if they made a cheaper 210mm SSXL......

Bernice Loui

4-Dec-2018, 21:45

How does any viewer-reader know for certain with direct verification of factual proof these sample images were made by the lens in question?
Beyond this, what are allowable production variations and consistency from lens to lens.

Not that difficult to have classic lens formulations produced today, it is more a matter of funding and market demand at a given price point. It is much about economy of scales and profitability.

Bernice

Corran

4-Dec-2018, 22:01

Perhaps someone will contact and discuss the lens with the retailer mentioned in post #2. In fact, I believe someone affiliated with them still posts gear in the classifieds.

Lachlan 717

5-Dec-2018, 00:32

blue4130

5-Dec-2018, 02:08

I have no concrete numbers, but from living in China for the past decade, I can say that LF and ULF is very much alive and thriving here. A local friend that I shoot with has more ULF brass lenses that I can count and multiple cameras from 4x5 to 24x24. He claims that his collection is small compared to many here. Take that as you will.

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 03:44

Luckily, I owns the S600 to compare with Fuji A600 and Goerz Dagor 600mm together.

This is the 1st picture with the S600 lens in Shanghai.

Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
185119

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 03:48

This is the 2nd picture which I shooted in Suzhou two months ago.

Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
185120

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 03:55

I shooted these 2 pictures last monday. One was by S600. Another was A600. However I couldn't identify them out because they had been disordered between the developing.
Same aperture setting, same shutter speed, same developing
Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3

185121
185122

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 04:20

On my opinion, S600 is different from Fuji C600 although they’re all 4C4G. C600's glasses had two plane surfuces, but all 8 surfuces of S600 are curved. And the image circle of S600 is ≥680mm, much more larger than C600.

There are some technical data of S600.
185123185124185125185126

Pere Casals

5-Dec-2018, 04:54

C600's glasses had two plane surfuces, but all 8 surfuces of S600 are curved.

This points that's not a clone but a derived design...

Flat surfaces are cheaper to make, so the S600 design may be an improvement. Today cad design makes design changes easy.

Graphs look fine for that circle.

Lachlan 717

5-Dec-2018, 05:17

This is the 2nd picture which I shooted in Suzhou two months ago.

Sinar P 8x10
Shanghai GP3
185120

Seems to resolve well, even though the images are reduced to a significant degree.

The mobile phone tower’s antennae are well defined.

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 05:45

Seems to resolve well, even though the images are reduced to a significant degree.

The mobile phone tower’s antennae are well defined.Yes, I tried to upload the larger files but failed.

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Pere Casals

5-Dec-2018, 05:53

Yes, I tried to upload the larger files but failed.

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Just upload a tinny crop of the antennae...

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 06:06

Good news!

I have no concrete numbers, but from living in China for the past decade, I can say that LF and ULF is very much alive and thriving here. A local friend that I shoot with has more ULF brass lenses that I can count and multiple cameras from 4x5 to 24x24. He claims that his collection is small compared to many here. Take that as you will.

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 06:08

185127

OK,Pere

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 06:12

I want one!

185127

OK,Pere

Pere Casals

5-Dec-2018, 06:23

185127
OK,Pere

Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 06:25

add atmospheric distortion/air quality

Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.

Pere Casals

5-Dec-2018, 06:39

add atmospheric distortion/air quality

So it's not a good sample about what the lens can do...

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 06:53

Pierre, I'm sure it can perform way better that what the crop suggests, the crop shows only like in a 50cm high enlargement.

it's haze that day and there's very dusty because of the dismantling of the site。

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 06:54

Obviously, and there are several technical issues between capture and our little screen.

Nonetheless I do like to try new things.

Always a first adopter, even in retroland.

You and Drew will endlessly pontificate, we will read some of it, but most blurs.

Life is too short to quibble...

So it's not a good sample about what the lens can do...

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 06:56

I can see that and I have terrible sight, not vision...:cool:

it's haze that day and there's very dusty because of the dismantling of the site。

MAubrey

5-Dec-2018, 12:04

Wow. This thread really took off after I left yesterday.

Now I'm even more curious than before. Maybe next spring it'll be time for a new lens for my 11x14.

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 18:12

I'm not entirely sure what format he shot this on but surely the field of view seems like 8x10 or larger. Click the thumbnail to open up a larger image:

http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/201809/212/21232/thumb_21232_1536837883.jpg (http://i6.xitek.com/forum/pics/201809/212/21232/21232_1536837883.jpg)

Of course, one can say that this small scan doesn't show much, and you could even say, perhaps this image is "faked." But it's something.

Personally, I'm not much of a long-lens guy, but if a 600mm that I could use on my 8x20 dropped in my lap, I'd happily take it. At the price w/o a shutter (I have a spare Copal 3) it's still way more than I would drop on a long lens, especially when there are other lenses in that focal length that would probably work just fine.

Now if they made a cheaper 210mm SSXL......

I asked the photographer. It's 8x10.

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Drew Wiley

5-Dec-2018, 18:26

Well, my own C600 was purchased for immaculate 8x10 color enlargements onto 30x40 inch gloss polyester prints (Ciba or Fuji Supergloss), which it does well, so a postage-stamp sized web posting tells me zero. Hopefully someone will revisit this thread after some brass tacks experience with the lens in question.

Tin Can

5-Dec-2018, 19:13

Show us your brass tack sharp masterpieces...

pierre506

5-Dec-2018, 19:23

so a postage-stamp sized web posting tells me zero. Hopefully someone will revisit this thread after some brass tacks experience with the lens in question.

I don't have C600 to compare. But we have to communicate with those shitty pictures on internet.
I believe it's the only way we could share something on the virtual world.

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Drew Wiley

5-Dec-2018, 21:17

pierre506

6-Dec-2018, 05:59

Ignore the Internet. If I was spending the money, I'd want to see at least one real sheet of high-resolution film. If they can ship a lens, they can mail an exposure sample! I played hard ball for several decades with manufacturers. After awhile they respect you for that if they're legit.
Are you sure that you could see at least one real sheet of high-resolution film before you bought every single lens on the internet or a real photographic shop? And every seller on the internet would be very pleased to mail you an Exposure sample before every lens' deal?

You must be a very high renown senior expert and buyer.
I don't have any query about your position, Drew.

I learnt.

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Bernice Loui

6-Dec-2018, 08:32

There was a time when film was the photographic means, view camera lenses sold by reputable dealers allowed trial time and right of refusal to return and no internet.
Optics-lens performance was judges-evaluated on a LOT more than just resolution or how "sharp" a given lens-optic was, from overall color balance, contrast rendition, overall visual nuances and more were part of the evaluation process.

Film image quality was taken very seriously by image makers that made their livelihood on their work... and it was far more than the technical aspects of the images they produced. IMO, this is much in the past today.

So much "hay" has been put into this optic design reproduction, one needs to ask why. If a Fujinon C600 is the lens of choice, they can be had at a price, get a good example and move on. It seems the "hay" over this repo C600 is the appeal of something new over something proven good.

Bernice

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 12:39

Every single lens I use came from one of the "big four" and already had a stellar reputation. But if you're the new kid on the block and want to get your foot in the door, it takes the ability to go the extra mile. I'm retired now, but my job as a professional buyer involved tools and equipment. At first, Japan had a bad reputation just like China does now. There was an obscure elec motor company nobody had heard of called Makita. The trouble they went through to get us to be the first retailer in the US was amazing. I got to know the CEO and key engineers on a first name basis. Much later, when Festool was seeking a significantly larger footprint in the US, same thing. It also happened when we were handling industrial coating. I have no problem hunting down a head chemist or key engineer to get factual answers. I rarely trust marketing types. Of course, after time, some companies just want to coast on a reputation they no longer deserve, and forget who and what gave them momentum in the first place. With a botique lens maker, it should be evensimpler to get answers. If not, they probably won't be around long anyway. Yes, in my career role I spent serious money. But when I needed a small item on a limited budget from what was formerly the largest optical coating plant in the world, I got incredible service from a key individual. That's what made them so successful. Big customers themselves generally start out as small customers, and even as a pro buyer with a big budget, I always tested suppliers with small token orders first.

Pere Casals

6-Dec-2018, 13:21

At first, Japan had a bad reputation just like China does now.

Drew, your evaluation is a bit outdated.

Your iPhone is made in China... Today there are many products made there with good reputation, also from chinese brands. Of course you may find low end products from there, but also you have exellent products.

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 14:11

Not outdated whatsoever, Pere. I've been retired less than two years and was right in the trenches till the very end. I frequently visit my ole company. Counterfeiting is a bigger problem than ever. Consumer electronics are something you think might be over the hurdle, but just look at recent incidents where certain categories have caught fire! When it comes to metallurgy, they're way behind even Taiwan. The biggest problem is how mass-marketers, like "big box" chains here, DEMAND low-quality disposable products, and really don't care if patents are violated. Of course, that's unlikely to affect niche items like a large-format lens - not the kind of thing WalMart or Home Depot is ever going to carry! But one of the reasons I'd like to find a classic 70's Zeiss research microscope like I used as a student back then, is the quality of the machining. Sure, today the Chinese can mass-produce microscopes with highly effective optics at far more reasonable pricing. But the quality of the machining and alloys is well below the vintage units; and in that respect, they're neither as durable nor precise. The same could be said for everything from table saws to enlargers, e.g., you're never going to see something like a Commercial Durst 138 made again because the cost of labor and materials would be too high. And back to my previous post about Makita - they do make their lower-quality home center items in places like China and Brazil, along with certain mid-level items that can be highly robotized (they go to China for cheap land, not for the cheap labor). But all their industrial and aerospace items are
made in their plants in Japan, the US, and Germany; and completely different engineers are involved. I could cite numerous analogous examples. Since lensboards cost relatively little, that's one category I've personally gambled on. The Chinese lensboards that came from Bromwell were fine; certain other brands proved worthless. The local camera shop sells Chinese step rings. I can't even handle them because the black rubs off - they aren't even anodized! But with a glut of good used LF lenses out there at low prices, I'd have to think twice about purchasing any new brand I wasn't familiar with, or even any older lens from a minor brand like Congo, which had a reputation for inconsistency.

Jim Fitzgerald

6-Dec-2018, 15:18

I recently purchased the only lens I've ever bought new. My Cooke triple convertible. I can shoot three focal lengths even up to 650 mm with the single component. Legendary optics and machining and I had no problem paying the price for this multi coated respected lens. I'd go this route. Just my .02 on the subject.

MAubrey

6-Dec-2018, 15:34

It seems unfair to automatically assume that the people creating this lens are low quality or don't care about IP.

A good example of a relatively recent Chinese startup that has embodied both workmanship and quality is Venus Optics for 35mm format:

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/the-man-behind-the-lens-mr-li-laowa-15mm-2-0-zero-d-fe/
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/mr-li-interview-design-process-of-the-10-18mm-and-the-future-of-laowa/

Tin Can

6-Dec-2018, 15:45

Excellent rebuttal with fantastic story in the links.

I really like the frog analogy and the last sentence in the first link.

Makes me hopeful.

It seems unfair to automatically assume that the people creating this lens are low quality or don't care about IP.

A good example of a relatively recent Chinese startup that has embodied both workmanship and quality is Venus Optics for 35mm format:

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/the-man-behind-the-lens-mr-li-laowa-15mm-2-0-zero-d-fe/
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/mr-li-interview-design-process-of-the-10-18mm-and-the-future-of-laowa/

Pfsor

6-Dec-2018, 16:16

Much more useful than this quibbling would be to hear an actual witness of the quality of this lens. I've heard (was it on this forum or elsewhere?) that there are tons of LF or even ULF users in China - isn't there anyone who would find its way to this forum to proudly announce its personal testimony about the lens? Not even one who uses this lens? Did they all go underground with their knowledge? Isn't there anyone from our Chinese members who could bring us the news? I wonder.

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 16:44

The problem with that, Pfor, is that a lot of ULF folks make rather, er, ...(trying not to offend anyone), creative rather than crisp shots which objectively present the capability of the lens. And this would have to be done on an optical bench basis rather than using a conventional film holder in which the film tends to sag. In other words, the capability of the lens itself has to be isolated from other variables. But since there's a used on up for sale at Catlabs, somebody must have tried it first, and it could be backtracked that way. But one or two lens users out there somewhere (maybe) does not equal the manifold testimonial of Fuji 600C users.

Pfsor

6-Dec-2018, 16:53

Let us not despair - there are more than 1b of people in China.

pierre506

6-Dec-2018, 17:00

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 17:02

Yeah Pfsor, but I have the advantage of a wife with a degree in Chinese literature, who has lived there. She could translate that site. But if I even mentioned the term "lens" to her, I'd be in a lot of trouble. We have an agreement - if I want a new lens, I have to sell an old one first.

MAubrey

6-Dec-2018, 17:07

Pfsor

6-Dec-2018, 17:07

Hurry up, Drew! Sell all you have to get to the bottom of it all! :) (And tell us the truth about the lens after....)

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 19:00

Oh, I probably have enough lenses for the duration. I've sold all my duplicate lenses, and will eventually have to start selling heavier gear, but I'm still in plenty good shape to at least day hike with 8x10. Same with shop equipment - keep just what I need for home remodeling and darkroom design, but it's the best. I used to own extra tools when I still owned mountain property, so realistically needed duplicate sets, plus different kinds of things; but I've been selling off the extra stuff for sake of my photography fund. I'd really like to get an Esterly Speedmat cutter. I have a decent linear cutter, but my hands were getting ruined by computers and I could hardly use the thing. But now that I'm retired, my hands are a lot better, so I'm not in a rush. I also generate extra cash from my cabinet shop equipment, but don't know if I want to start making my own portfolios boxes. They'd certainly look nice and custom, but wouldn't really be any cheaper than manufactured museum cases. My big flat files are custom made.

Lachlan 717

6-Dec-2018, 19:04

Drew Wiley

6-Dec-2018, 19:42

Prints are not the same things as a web posting. I'm not trying to be impolite, but I don't even own a digital camera, my copystand is dismantled, and I no longer maintain a website. Web surfers don't do me any good. Every single print I've ever sold in my life was sold because someone saw it in person. I'm not in an ivory tower whatsover. There are more kinds of people interested in photography than just forum members. I have a major body of work and that is what I concentrate on. It's fun and often informative to engage in this kind of forum, but that's not the objective of my darkroom work. If you can't accept that fact, you might as well reject the work of every generation of photography prior to the introduction of the web - the whole 150+ years of it. I'm not against visually posting things - I just have other priorities. The mere fact you ask for visual comparisons of ULF lens A versus lens B in a web version pretty much defeats the whole point. It's like trying to saw down a three-foot diameter oak tree with a fingernail file. You might argue that that's just how its done today. Says who? If you want to be limited by that, fine. I have my own parameters.

Bernice Loui

6-Dec-2018, 20:53

Images via the web can never reveal or express what the print can do in real life under the proper lighting and viewing conditions.

Some years ago at a LF print sharing event. One of the participants share a print with me. Reply, digital B&W print with too much post process sharpening and more. Turns out, this was a digital B&W print that was film based lens aperture of f90, scanned then post digital processed to make a digital print.

For those who know precisely what to look for and what a GOOD silver gelatin print can be under the proper lighting and viewing conditions, these SG prints are magic. The magic of excellent SG prints can NEVER be view as a web based image. It starts with the digital process, then electronic transmission, then viewer limitations and a LOT more.

What does this mean for individual who have never had the real world experience of knowing, seeing and appreciating what a excellent Silver Gelatin print could be.. their point of reference and deeper understanding, deeper appreciation of what is possible with SG has not good point of reference.

Much the same applies to high quality color prints from the past like Ciba-Ilford chrome prints done as good as they could be.

Here lies the most significant and serious problem with image sharing via electronic transmission, it can never be as good as the analog original. Trying to make judgement based on electronic transmitted film based-analog prints is pure folly as it can only present a highly processed version of the original.

Bernice

Lachlan 717

6-Dec-2018, 22:33

You’ve missed that I was referring to you unwavering reverence towards the Fujinon, regardless of whether this is a good lens or not.

You’ve decided already that it’s not up to YOUR standard, dismissing the possibility that it might be comparatively as good, let alone better, than the Fujinon.

The point of the presentation of the mobile phone mast was to take a step forward - that being, does the lens show some degree of quality of imaging. It was not to be the critical decider; more just a confirmation that this lens needs further investigation.

And, by the way, your claims about your body of work and selling prints are basically inconsequential to this discussion. You opinion is simply one of many, regardless of whether you claim it as fact or not.

blue4130

6-Dec-2018, 23:34

Pfsor

7-Dec-2018, 03:49

Pierre said he owns the S600 and showed us 2 pictures (one taken on a hazy day of a very dusty scene). Hardly witnessing the actual lens quality though. A more serious approach would be better.

pierre506

7-Dec-2018, 07:14

Pierre said he owns the S600 and showed us 2 pictures (one taken on a hazy day of a very dusty scene). Hardly witnessing the actual lens quality though. A more serious approach would be better.Three

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Pfsor

7-Dec-2018, 07:29

You mean, you also count the one about which you don't know if it was taken with 600 A or with S 600? How kind and useful of you!

Havoc

7-Dec-2018, 08:59

I have been taking apart the shutter of a Fuji GX680 lens. It is a weird combination of a motor to tension the spring and some electronics (sadly in the body) the set the speed. Selecting the speed is just a digital coded switch. Should continue with that project one day.

But a small cpu and the motor as used for the diaphragm of almost all AF lenses would be easier. The hard part is the mechanics, not the electronics.

Jim Fitzgerald

7-Dec-2018, 11:04

Havoc

7-Dec-2018, 11:17

Sorry, started reading the thread and reacted to something in the beginning forgetting there were a lot of other pages... Just forget. Lousy week.

consummate_fritterer

7-Dec-2018, 11:48

Drew Wiley

7-Dec-2018, 12:11

No guild or family cabinet shop making wood cameras, no matter how nice, is analogous to lens manufacture, which is a high-tech enterprise. So please stop citing these examples. They're irrelevant. It's like trying to compare the quality of a hand-forged Japanese chisel or sword to a Smart phone. There are also often international collaborations in such undertakings, both financially and technologically. The one kind of equipment I never alter are lenses. I have neither the knowledge, equipment, or funding. The only lens manufacturer in this town has a budget running in the billions, and they're full of trade secrets, and serve secret surveillance and military clients. Everyone know they specialize in aspherics, but so what - it's like imagining you can build a Ferrari because you know it uses wheels ! On the other hand, if I were younger and had the will, I could very well set up a small high-quality field camera manufacturing base of my own, with limited output. In fact, in this day and age, you could even acquire much of the basic tooling for the cost of a single pre-made ULF camera! A completely different business model, with a completely different skill set. And nobody like me is "automatically assuming" anything about the particular lens in question. But having spent many millions of dollars of other peoples money in the trenches, and having to win far more often than you lose, if you're going to stay in business, I can legitimately point out some potential minefields worth investigating before you blithely mosey through them.

MAubrey

7-Dec-2018, 13:24

No guild or family cabinet shop making wood cameras, no matter how nice, is analogous to lens manufacture, which is a high-tech enterprise. So please stop citing these examples. They're irrelevant. It's like ... (insert full rant here)
These examples?

Chamonix is a singular example. You mean, "Please stop citing this example." And this is the first time Chamonix has been brought up in this thread, so may you should say, "Please don't cite this example."

The example of Venus Optics on the other hand, you're conveniently silent on. They make excellent lenses.

And nobody like me is "automatically assuming" anything about the particular lens in question. But having spent many millions of dollars of other peoples money in the trenches, and having to win far more often than you lose, if you're going to stay in business, I can legitimately point out some potential minefields worth investigating before you blithely mosey through them.
The thing about an automatic assumption is that it is of the kind you make without realizing you're making it. And you're doing it again here...in a very, very condescending manner, at that.

Drew Wiley

7-Dec-2018, 13:44

Suit yourself. Talk comes cheap. I've successfully set up repetitive successful dealership arrangements involving many millions of dollars which had to inherently take into account this very kind of question. I've also been a supplier of certain commodities and quite a variety of specialized equipment and sealant to both lens makers, highly specialized govt, university, and hi-tech enterprises, and some very expensive cabinet shops whose could no doubt crank out exquisite cameras if that kind of thing were even remotely capable of paying their bills. I do not pretend to be an optical engineer, but have long specialized in asking specific answers and demanding honest answers, and have had numerous conversations with optical engineers of all kinds of things right up to the Hubble corrective lenses, which I was a minor contributor to as a sealant supplier. So if I sound condescending, sorry, but that's in your head, not mine. I'm not putting down anyone's favorite camera or lens, or the people who made them. I happen to use a Phillips 8x10 and think that the Chamonix is a worthy replacement - and they copied his design by permission, not piracy, which is another plus. I also know, probably way more specifically than any one else on this forum, just how good the Chinese are at making utter junk that actually looks good. I have no reason to see what motive there would be to do that in this case, with such a relatively limited market for something; but I've seen that scenario before too. Sorry if simple statements like these are controversial to some of you. In my line of work they were "sink or swim" common sense, and I would think people would be appreciative rather than irritated at me stating them. But it's potentially your money and not mine, so think and do anything you please. It's your right. It's also my right to
give an opinion of my own, which is indeed entirely tentative; but that is the nature of circumstances with an unknown product. Like I already said, any new kid on the block has to work a lot harder to get his foot in the door, if
they're even contemplating distribution in the Western world. It's just how its done. Skepticism had to be met with hard experience justifying this or that new product. This is allegedly a "professional" item, not some goofy next
generation cell phone camera. So tough questions are inherently involved. Do you go out and buy a brand of car you never heard of just because they have a good website? Car dealers at least allow you a test drive. Likewise,
serious manufacturers trying to introduce their products in this country not only allowed me to test them, but often outright gave me equipment to run through the gamut. And I did test such things in real world applications, and
often even dissected equipment in our own repair facility to find out what kind of quality parts were inside. I spoke to the original engineers. It spelled their success, not just mine.

Bob Salomon

7-Dec-2018, 14:08

Suit yourself. Talk comes cheap. I've successfully set up repetitive successful dealership arrangements involving many millions of dollars which had to inherently take into account this very kind of question. I've also been a supplier of certain commodities and quite a variety of specialized equipment and sealant to both lens makers, highly specialized govt, university, and hi-tech enterprises, and some very expensive cabinet shops whose could no doubt crank out exquisite cameras if that kind of thing were even remotely capable of paying their bills. I do not pretend to be an optical engineer, but have long specialized in asking specific answers and demanding honest answers, and have had numerous conversations with optical engineers of all kinds of things right up to the Hubble corrective lenses, which I was a minor contributor to as a sealant supplier. So if I sound condescending, sorry, but that's in your head, not mine. I'm not putting down anyone's favorite camera or lens, or the people who made them. I happen to use a Phillips 8x10 and think that the Chamonix is a worthy replacement - and they copied his design by permission, not piracy, which is another plus. I also know, probably way more specifically than any one else on this forum, just how good the Chinese are at making utter junk that actually looks good. I have no reason to see what motive there would be to do that in this case, with such a relatively limited market for something; but I've seen that scenario before too. Sorry if simple statements like these are controversial to some of you. In my line of work they were "sink or swim" common sense, and I would think people would be appreciative rather than irritated at me stating them. But it's potentially your money and not mine, so think and do anything you please. It's your right. It's also my right to
give an opinion of my own, which is indeed entirely tentative; but that is the nature of circumstances with an unknown product. Like I already said, any new kid on the block has to work a lot harder to get his foot in the door, if
they're even contemplating distribution in the Western world. It's just how its done. Skepticism had to be met with hard experience justifying this or that new product. This is allegedly a "professional" item, not some goofy next
generation cell phone camera. So tough questions are inherently involved. Do you go out and buy a brand of car you never heard of just because they have a good website? Car dealers at least allow you a test drive.

While we were the USA Rollei distributor Rollei introduced the 6008 system with their linear motor lenses for shutter and aperture.

Just after we returned from Photokina I received a fax from a factory in China telling me that if I would sell them a camera they would copy it and sell them to us at a “very good” price! We turned them down.

But a year or two earlier I received a call from someone that wanted to buy a “map” camera. As we were the Linhof distributor I had thought they were looking for the 45 Linhof Aero Technika EL and made an appointment to meet them at our office to give them a demo.

At the appointment several Chinese gentlemen showed up, including a high ranking guy in uniform. One spoke very good English.

I brought out our demo Aero outfit and after a rather furious discussion in Chinese I was informed that they were looking for a system to copy maps!

So I brought out a Rollei 6006 MK lol and a 120 Zeiss macro and bellows and extension tubes. We then set up a map that they brought and started to set up various magnifications looking at the map. They then decided to buy a few outfits with the tubes and bellows.

Then they wanted to see if we could blow up a portion of an image so out came a Rollei 66 slide projector and various lenses that we ended up projecting images onto a screen two rooms away from the projector. They also ordered a few of these.

Next day we received a PO from the Chinese embassy.

Always wondered exactly what they were doing!

Drew Wiley

7-Dec-2018, 14:23

Well, you've been in the trenches yourself, Bob, so can appreciate where I'm coming from. Just between posts I got a phone call from the husband of the woman who heads the Business School at the University of Beijing, which is actually an adjunct of the Calif University system. The tentacles sometimes interweave in very complex ways. Most Chinese now speak English. It's a mandatory second language for many in China. On the other hand, when I dealt with the Japanese, the whole problem can be summed up in the title of that comedy movie, Lost in translations. Interpreters, plus interpreters for interpreters, involving technical language the engineers understood. Working with German engineers and CEO's was a delight. Most US CEO's were too busy greasing their own palms to care bothering with facts, though that was mainly an affliction of publicly-traded corporations, not private ones. We had salesmen in China for awhile, but they went in rather naive to the structured system of bribery inherent to doing business there, otherwise impenetrable. And bribes come the other way obviously. Just fact. Cottage industries are thankfully too small to make a dent in this respect, so can operate cleanly without attracting attention. They can also provide quality that big industries can't unless they're given commensurate enormous orders to do so. Again, just the way it works. Copying and innovating are really quite different business models. Someone will no doubt react to that statement too; but anyone who personally knows me, knows how much I am involved with Chinese myself, and needs to
understand the difference between an ethnicity and a predominant manufacturing model, one that routinely takes shortcuts unless its given a very specific incentive not to. There are exceptions to every trend or stereotype, of course, and hopefully Chinese mfg will gradually fill in certain things necessary to photography when others have dropped out. But so far, it hasn't gone smoothly. ... But I suspect Oren is just about to intervene and shut the discussion down, and that's fine; he has a job to do too.

Tin Can

7-Dec-2018, 14:29

Now you are typing too fast ...

Well, you've been in the trenches yourself, Bob, so can appreciate where I'm coming from. Just between posts I can a phone call from the husband of the woman who head the Business School at the University of Beijing, which is actually an adjunct of the Calif University system. The tentacles sometimes interweave in very complex ways. Most Chinese now speak English. It's a mandatory second language for many in China. On the other hand, when I dealt with the Japanese, the who problem can be summed up in the title of that comedy movie, Lost in translations. Interpreters, plus interpreters for interpreters, involving technical language the engineers understood. Working with German engineers and CEO's was a delight. Most US CEO's were too busy greasing their own palms to care bothering with facts, though that was mainly an affliction of publicly-traded corporations, not private ones. We had salesmen in China for awhile, but they went in rather naive to structured system of bribery inherent to doing business, otherwise impenetrable. And bribes come the other way obviously. Just fact. Cottage industries are thankfully too small to make a dent in this respect, so can operate cleanly without attracting attention. They can also provide quality that big industries can't unless they're given commensurate enormous orders to do so. Again, just the way it works. Copying and innovating are really quite different business models.

Drew Wiley

7-Dec-2018, 16:17

Hi Randy... yeah, in a hurry to salvage part of the day and get in the lab long enough to size a bunch of drymount tissue. I've been on a drymount marathon, but for a couple days it rained very heavily and raised the humidity too much to make drymounting easy, but now the wind has cleared that out and next week's forecast looks mainly dry. The biggest problem is in Spring when it warms up and steams the soil, causing the most humidity. And this time of year I check on my dessicants and stored-away lenses, like my prized 600C Fuji. I don't often use it, but when I do, it's a wonderful optic. In the context of the present discussion, I'd be embarrassed to say what I paid for it. Let's just say if I sold it now, I'd make a very handsome profit.

pierre506

7-Dec-2018, 16:21

But I suspect Oren is just about to intervene and shut the discussion down, and that's fine; he has a job to do too.

Why do you suggest to stop the interesting discussion?
Every one could choose by himself, as Jim choosed a safer way, I choosed to taste it, someone choosed to look on wait and see, someone choosed to ignore it...

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blue4130

7-Dec-2018, 16:21

pierre506

7-Dec-2018, 16:35

Drew, If you are so against this lens existing, just don't buy it. Why try to force your opinion on others while shutting down their thoughts? Isn't the LF world big enough for a little competition? Since when is a new product a bad thing?Yes, almost every optics manufacturer stopped their lens production for LF and ULF beside of the golden Cooke. I believe we need more options although there are lots of used lenses on the market.

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Drew Wiley

7-Dec-2018, 16:37

There's nothing wrong with competition or someone new entering the arena. There is something wrong when there's the impression it's the same thing. It plainly isn't. But it might legitimately fill a very similar niche, which has yet to be proven. But glad someone found the discussion and banter interesting. Sure, I admit I'm playing devil's advocate, but that's part of sorting things out. I don't take web information at face value. It's as misleading as often as not. And if I bother people in this respect, they'd get skinned alive by certain very successful large format photographers not even participating on this forum who discuss their equipment almost like a religion. Some people enjoy that, some don't. No different than outdoor gear, or shop tools, or motorcycles, etc. I like refurbishing classic old enlargers, along with ways to significantly improve their performance, though I think I'm finally done doing that. Other people just want to buy one new and be done with it. I'm not forcing an opinion on anyone. It's a forum, for heaven's sake, where equipment is discussed from potentially different angles of view.

Pfsor

7-Dec-2018, 16:58

Pierre, while you're at it - take some more pics with your lens, you don't even need to show them here, and tell us more about your personal experience and results with the lens. It will be as authoritative as any other amateur opinion about it and you can make yourself the position of a first hand informer. How about it? Good luck!

Greg

7-Dec-2018, 17:54

So the Fujinon C 600mm F11.5 certainly seems to be a cult lens. 210mm Apo-Lanthar was another one of them. Got a chance to try one out back when and it was a really good lens but not worth its inflated price. Opted for a 210mm Nikkor with no regrets. Very seriously considered acquiring a Fujinon C 600mm a few years ago, but then found a mint 508mm f/7 Caltar in an Ilex #5 in mint condition for a mere fraction of the asking price for the 600mm Fujinon. Opted to acquire the slightly shorter 508mm Caltar. Little bit wider than the 600mm Fujinon but really not by all that much in practice. Plus the Caltar projects an image on my GG that looks like it is from a f/5.6 optic on my 8x10. Other alternatives for a Fujinon C 600mm F11.5 out there?

Pfsor

7-Dec-2018, 18:06

Other alternatives for a Fujinon C 600mm F11.5 out there?

Kang Rinpoche S 600 F 11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm).

pepeguitarra

7-Dec-2018, 18:16

.... but it is some Chinese product and I doubt the quality.
Perhaps it is better to buy a cheaper older original Fujinon? It is about $3000 on eBay.
[/URL]

I had the pleasure of buying some tools in Germany, with the Made in Germany label, for which I paid good money. After the sale, I found out that they were made in China. I then learned that manufacturing in China is very common for everything. They can produce the real deal, and knock off articles.

consummate_fritterer

7-Dec-2018, 20:30

Drew Wiley

8-Dec-2018, 11:59

True. And it's unfortunate that if even 1% percent of plot of land contains actual land mines, it still warrants caution. In this case, I don't have any preconception about the specific lens in question, but do point out how nothing presented so far tells us what it really does. A token web posting of alleged sharpness, one brand versus another, might only indicate how a sheet of film happened to randomly lie flatter in one holder versus another. And we know nothing about the color correction of the lens (I use my 600C mainly for
color work); and the degree of color correction indeed affects B&W sharpness vs fringing because colored contrast filters come into play. Most of us can't realistically attend Photokina, and even if we did, it's somewhat of a "trial balloon" venue, testing the wind to
find out if there is market potential for a new product or not.

consummate_fritterer

9-Dec-2018, 11:53

I agree with all of the above. I'm only suggesting we express reasonable caution rather than borderline condemnation. I'm sure once a few folks try these optics the reports will trickle through. I won't be an adopter because I can't afford a $2000+ lens. :)

europanorama

14-Dec-2018, 07:45

There will be much more phototechnical(cameras, HQ-lenses)-surprises from asia a trustful source told me. Affordable stuff!
see e.g. Irix(the brand from an HQ-optical company in switzerland which let the stuff be produced in china.
reg. 3s-krpc its not the producer. i asked things about cams he could not answer. its a dealer who is getting some-very little stuff from time to time. e.g. 18° camera-brand. how is the western name called again. it has been discussed here: 4x5 pinhole and rangefindercams from 99-880 usd. pinhole-shutters(each lens has its shutter-not replaceable pinholes!)
There was a shenlong 360 two-lens-rotopancam(120/220 with tilt/shift). ktcamera was at photokina also with liere 6x7 stuff but he forgot to inform the public in advance. now website is gone! I am very upset no informations where to get it again.
yes there will also be digital pancams better than roundshot.
strange-when is search for stuff 3s-krpc should sell: ZERO

europanorama

14-Dec-2018, 08:02

nothing there or hidden. when i click store he has nothing. whats you experience. i seed some stuff but outside store.
strange.

pierre506

14-Dec-2018, 21:42

192743724570

On Certain bay

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Two23

14-Dec-2018, 22:26

Regarding LF in China - this came across my feed recently, from a friend in HK (no Facebook needed to view):
https://www.facebook.com/icablenews/videos/vb.186040714921338/202961587250726

A Chamonix 20x24? I can see that there must be some demand inside China itself for Hugo to be able to not only start up but grow.

Kent in SD

Tin Can

9-Jan-2019, 07:50

I received a KangRinpoche S 600mm f11.5 this week. I have not shot it yet, will be soon.

Here is a first look youtube I made this morning. More later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS8EuPfvVOk

Pere Casals

9-Jan-2019, 08:03

Randy, it would be really great to know your impressions after you shot with it !!!

In these times, not everyday a new LF lens product is released !

Peter De Smidt

9-Jan-2019, 09:03

Nice job, Randy!

Tin Can

9-Jan-2019, 09:05

Pere, you betcha!

Peter, I need a teleprompter, it's on the list...

Alan9940

9-Jan-2019, 10:03

Thanks for the intro video, Randy. Looking forward to future videos and your take on results obtained. I've been mulling over a 600mm for my 8x10 Deardorff, but the Fuji C 600 used prices nowadays are simply out of my budget.

MAubrey

9-Jan-2019, 13:55

We'll be looking forward to your comparisons!

Tin Can

10-Jan-2019, 09:02

I am open for suggestions on studio test methods.

Right now I am setting up Horseman triple standard 4X5 Optical Bench with lens hood and will shoot Plastica (mannequin) with printed objects wide open, f22 and beyond.

I will move to 8X10 tomorrow and consider 11X14 the next day.

Be reasonable...:)

Alan9940

10-Jan-2019, 12:29

I am open for suggestions on studio test methods.

Since I'm considering this lens for outdoor photography with my 8x10, I'd be most interested in how it performs under those conditions--overcast, bright sun, sun at an angle that could possibly cause flare, etc. But, I'll appreciate any results you post. Thank you.

Drew Wiley

10-Jan-2019, 12:56

Thanks for the update, Randy. As you start to shoot with this lens, general impressions are fine. Doing a truly objective lab comparison would be complicated, and mandate vac film holders or aerial image comparisons; and apparently, you're not interested in color performance. The Apo Nikkor is going to be far better corrected, regardless, but obviously way less convenient in the field. Nitpicky sharpness and apochromaticity isn't always a key factor in big film sizes anyway. And you don't have an original Fuji 600C to compare with, so no need to fuss about that question. Looks like the same shutter that was used for the Nikkor 450 M's. Have fun!

Tin Can

11-Jan-2019, 09:06

Shot the KangRinpoche S600 f 11.5 last night and processed the film in my first usage of my new darkroom. It's been almost 2 years since I had all the gear working. My move took a long time. I made mistakes. I had a empty water stop tank...

I lit the still life too hot with 2 big LED panels. The 4X5 Horseman was fully extended. I could not shoot the comparison lenses with this setup.

Today I will change to bigger camera with more bellows.

iPhone shots are for reference.

Ilford Delta 100 Epson V700 scanned with Vuescan Pro settings developed in 1/100 Rodinol gas burst. Not sharpened in PS, but contrast and brightness was adjusted. No spotting. No curves, no histogram trim.

The top food can in image has an invisible barcode way overlit.

I focused at f11.5 and did not refocus for f45. See paper notes in images.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4852/32827455408_7c1dc8d125_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S1RhNu)IMG-1871 (https://flic.kr/p/S1RhNu) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7800/31761079017_a386dfee6b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QoBQfD)IMG-1873 (https://flic.kr/p/QoBQfD) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7895/31760972067_e73a3a27e3_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QoBhsF)Kang f11.5 1-15 16 ft (https://flic.kr/p/QoBhsF) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7857/45786911465_0dd1f1783a_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cL2TA2)Kang f45 1sec 16 ft (https://flic.kr/p/2cL2TA2) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Dan Fromm

11-Jan-2019, 09:07

Well, it clearly meets the minimum standard. Passes light, forms an image.

Drew Wiley

11-Jan-2019, 12:34

Did that model charge by the hour? The makeup looks a little heavy.

Tin Can

11-Jan-2019, 12:54

Plastica, $45 delivered, no returns

Loyal, never moves

Looks best dressed

Do you need the Tinder tag (https://www.tinderseduction.com/best-tinder-bio-taglines/#TinderBio_and_Tagline_Examples_For_Girls)?

Did that model charge by the hour? The makeup looks a little heavy.

Alan9940

11-Jan-2019, 13:36

Tin Can

11-Jan-2019, 14:12

Randy, was the contrast adjustment the same for both images? If yes, what do you think accounts for the higher contrast of the f/45 image vs the f/11.5? Brightness between the two appears very similar.

Yes, exactly the same #'s in PS for brightness and contrast. Scanned together on 2 up Epson V750

Lighting was the same, exposures within 2 minutes and processed together on 4 up hangers.

I don't have an opinion.

Drew Wiley

11-Jan-2019, 15:09

Oh gosh, I'm itching to get out with my 600C, but it's been pretty wet and mucky lately. Might give the 8x10 a try tomorrow. Did some scouting shots with a 6x7 tele last wk, so pretty much already know what I want.

Tin Can

11-Jan-2019, 15:20

By gosh, good for you. Sloppy here too.

But we all know you will never post any image.

Oh gosh, I'm itching to get out with my 600C, but it's been pretty wet and mucky lately. Might give the 8x10 a try tomorrow. Did some scouting shots with a 6x7 tele last wk, so pretty much already know what I want.

Drew Wiley

11-Jan-2019, 15:42

Oh, I dunno. Eventually I'll need to set up the copystand again. But I won't ever own a digital camera unless its for copy work specifically; and then, only if I traded something for it. I did buy my wife a cute little digital underwater camera, what we refer to as her "turtle camera" for snorkeling use in the Islands. I simply couldn't justify the cost of a real film Nikonos for that kind of intermittent casual usage. And for awhile she had various digi 35mm cameras around for operating room documentation; but those were on loan from the clinic. The whole digi whatever is very low on my priority list at the moment. We do have a few cell phone shots around of Henry, our late great pet tree
squirrel. Those little BB wide-angle phone lenses really exaggerated his cute round nose.

Tin Can

12-Jan-2019, 09:06

Back to KangRinpoche

Now an unfair comparison between Kang S600mm and Cooke 635mm Series IX in barrel.

Shot four 8X10 Ektascan X-Ray using strobes using a Packard shutter with sync for all four. With an 8X10 Linhof Kardan Color and lens hood. Exposure decided by DSLR + bellows factor 1/2 stop.

The Cooke shot at f10, Kang f11.5. Same light power. No filters. Einstein strobes were adjusted up 3 stops on both lenses to their marked f32.

I forgot to add the paper data sheet to the first Kang shot at f10. Distance to target was 11 feet.

Focus was on Plastica's stage right right eye highlight adjusted for FL initial wide open on both, but not refocused for f32. Only a small front rise, all other movement locked.

All scanned V700 at 2400 dpi. No spotting. PS converted to B&W with yellow filter, brightness raised 15 and contrast reduced -25. No sharpness applied anywhere.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7916/45799163105_23dbeb3bf0_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cM7Fzc)Kang f11.5 PS Max (https://flic.kr/p/2cM7Fzc) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4912/46714470241_cd24a2de5e_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eaZSuH)KANG f32 8X10 X-Ray PS MAX (https://flic.kr/p/2eaZSuH) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7891/45799156885_1ef60e0e52_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cM7DHX)PS MAX 2019 Cooke IX f10 (https://flic.kr/p/2cM7DHX) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7887/32839530888_13277e5e57_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S2Vbqq)PS MAX COOKE IX f32 (https://flic.kr/p/S2Vbqq) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Tin Can

12-Jan-2019, 09:10

Gear and setup by iPhone. Strobes reduced.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4814/46661831992_454612b1c0_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2e6m5YG)IMG-1892 (https://flic.kr/p/2e6m5YG) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

pepeguitarra

12-Jan-2019, 13:02

What a tripod/camera set up!!

Peter De Smidt

12-Jan-2019, 13:44

Good job, Randy!

Tin Can

12-Jan-2019, 14:53

Thanks pepeguitarra and Peter

alan9940, I will not be doing any field work for a while

Drew and Dan, useful comments

Anybody else?

pierre506

12-Jan-2019, 19:04

Thanks pepeguitarra and Peter

alan9940, I will not be doing any field work for a while

Drew and Dan, useful comments

Anybody else?

Wonderful studio set， Randy

Pali K

12-Jan-2019, 19:34

Nice comparison and indeed a very nice studio setup Randy.

Dugan

12-Jan-2019, 21:16

Well done comparison, Randy...
Empirical data is where it's at....

Tin Can

13-Jan-2019, 06:10

Thanks Pali and Dugan!

I wish I had a Resolving Power Chart (https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/resolving-power-chart/11903/), next time I will.

Pere Casals

13-Jan-2019, 06:28

Thanks Pali and Dugan!

I wish I had a Resolving Power Chart (https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/resolving-power-chart/11903/), next time I will.

http://www.takinami.com/yoshihiko/photo/lens_test/USAF.pdf

Randy, just print that with any printer, if print quality is really bad then place it a bit farther... always you have to apply the magnification ratio anyway... or just post an scan (to know the magnification) and I'll tell you the reading, just you should also say what pattern is the last good one where you perceive lines orientation when inspected with any strong magnifier, say a cheap jewelry 60x loupe.

Tin Can

13-Jan-2019, 06:45

That's the one I used in the pics. I just reprinted it to check.

I use it all the time. But read Pali's new scanner post.

Thanks!

http://www.takinami.com/yoshihiko/photo/lens_test/USAF.pdf

Randy, just print that with any printer, if print quality is really bad then place it a bit farther... always you have to apply the magnification ratio anyway... or just post an scan (to know the magnification) and I'll tell you the reading, just you should also say what pattern is the last good one where you perceive lines orientation when inspected with any strong magnifier, say a cheap jewelry 60x loupe.

Lachlan 717

14-Feb-2019, 03:22

Anything new on the results from this lens?

Tin Can

14-Feb-2019, 05:53

What do you want to know?

Right now I am busy with the Print Exchange.

Tin Can

14-Feb-2019, 07:05

Lachlan

My 7X17 does not have enough bellows, the ones I have on it won't stretch far enough.

I sold my field 11x14 as I realized i won't be hiking with it.

My Deardorff S11 11X14 can do macro with the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 and perform extreme movements with 75" of extension.

However field use with ULF is the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 lens speciality.

Greg

27-May-2020, 16:14

So acquired a KangRinpoche 600mm F/11.5 S Lens a few days ago, mainly for use on my 11x14 Chamonix. Was from a Japanese dealer who rated it "93% EXC Very good condition with some signs of use" Upon very close inspection, I'd rate it Mint + because I could see no signs of use. Copal 3 looks to be in "as new" condition. With original IB, packing, and inside its original box. I honestly don't think that the lens was ever used. Came mounted in a NIKON brand Linhof style lensboard which also looks like it was never mounted in a front standard judging from its flawless black paint.

My impressions so far... Its maximum f/11.5 aperture throws a nice surprisingly bright image on the GG. F/stop scale is marked down to f/128 but can be stopped down to an unmarked f/256. Sweet spot, for me, seems to be f/64. I did shoot one negative at f/128. At f/128 diffraction definitely makes itself known when you look at the negative with a Horseman Precision 4X Lupe, but judging from a contact work print, it looks to be just fine for contact printing (or maybe I've just been shooting too many 11x14 pinhole images). Coverage of this optic exceeds the front maximum rise movement on my 11x14 Chamonix. Cross section of the 600mm KangRinpoche in its paperwork matched (if not exactly) the cross section of the 600mm FUJINON-CS in my Fuji lens brochure. My closest optic to compare this lens to is my 508mm f/7 Caltar. Shot one scene with both optics and sharpness and contrast were very much alike. I was surprised though at how much the difference of 92mm in focal length made, but that is a subjective opinion on my part. KangRinpoche rates the optic's image field at f/22 at 680mm, certainly way more than I will ever need.

I was very hesitant on buying this lens after all it is only 92mm longer than my Caltar and more than a stop slower. But after using it in the field for a few days, this optic is definitely a keeper. Initially I was saving up to acquire a Fujinon C 600mm F11.5, but couldn't find one FS at a reasonable price. The last one I found in absolutely MINT condition was just shy of 5K, the KangRinpoche cost me 1/3 of that price!