Expired Kodak Photoflow, Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, Ilford Rapid Fixer > still ok to

[l2oBiN]

I discovered some chemicals that I have forgotten about. The rapid fixes does not seem to have the exp date but photoflow and hypo clearing agent do, and they are out.

What would be the effect of these expired chemicals on the dev? Are they still ok to use?

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[Bernard_L]

HCA. Yours is expired since 6 months. The powder will still be 100% OK in 10 years.

Photo-Flo. I still use the same bottle of Photo-Flo 600 since 40 years.

Rapid fixer. Ironically, the one without an expiration date is the one you migh be worried about. Peek through the bottle opening: do you see a yellow sulphur deposit? In doubt, prepare some 1+4 dilution and try fixing a clip from a regular emulsion (400TX, FP4,...). Should clear in 25sec. 1+9 should clear film clip in ~1min. If it passes that test, it should be OK. I've had some Tetenal fixer with the yellow deposit that would nevertheless clear a film clip in 25sec. Just to be safe, I'll use it for paper.

[Mark Sampson]

Bernard_L is right.
If the sulfur has precipitated out of solution, leaving yellow mud in the bottom of the bottle, it's no good. Just throw it out.
KHCA is a mixture of sodium sulfite and sodium bisulfite; the powder should be good forever.
PF-200 stock solution should be good indefinitely; mixed to working strength, a week at most. Algae will grow in the working solution- when I ran a sink line in a custom lab, the PF tank was changed weekly for this reason. Not a problem if you mix a small amount every time you process film. (PF-600 was made for huge commercial film processors and is merely a 3x stronger formulation.)

[Vaughn]

Mark -- Photo-Flo 600 is a different beast (and more toxic) than Photo-Flo 200. Photo-Flo 2100 is the same chemically as Photo-Flo 200.

[Pere Casals]

If the sulfur has precipitated out of solution, leaving yellow mud in the bottom of the bottle, it's no good. Just throw it out.


There is some controversy about that, some say that sulphured out fixer should not be used because sulphur may contaminate the emulsion, so "LE500 is not fulfilled", others say that this is not a hazard at all because elementary sulphur is just insoluble in water.

... and anyway fixer chem concentrations vary a lot more while it is exhauted by normal usage.

I was told that this is because some O2 entered because of marginal plastic bottle porousity, but that it can be filtered out and the fixer used if not insane amounts of precipitation. I had a 15 years old bottle that passed perfectly the clip test, I filtered out the yellow thing and I used it in the first bath of the two bath fixing I do. Negatives are 4 years old now and I see nothing different.

[koraks]

Fixer is fairly cheap. Why mess with an old bottle of fixer if it has (partly) sulfured out?

[Pere Casals]

Well, in part to not generate more waste than necessary, but on any doubt better to throw it, I agree. Anyway IMHO it's always good to know when chem is ok or not beyond expiration, and why. Somewhat it allows a better understanding about how products in the shelf should be managed, and that leads to better practices to keep chem ok.

We could be throwing Photoflo bottles each time it was expired, but we learned it's not necessary...

[Mark Sampson]

Vaughn, 20 years in the labs at Kodak never told me that about Photo-Flo. Live and learn...
Sulfurized fixer simply won't fix your film. Don't risk your pictures, time and effort trying to use it. Although some people happily drink sour milk and eat moldy bread (not me though). Fresh is best!

[Pere Casals]

Ok, but how much sulphur we need to throw it? One spec? 5 grs? 2" in the bottom?

[Mark Sampson]

Pere, if there's any 'mud' at the bottom of the fixer bottle, get rid of it. Sadly, I have too much experience with this issue. Imagine cleaning up a neglected 42" Kreonite roller-transport RA-4 print processor when the bleach-fix has sulfurized. I've done that more than once... So fresh fixer is just a "better safe than sorry issue", at least for me.

[Bob Salomon]

Pere, if there's any 'mud' at the bottom of the fixer bottle, get rid of it. Sadly, I have too much experience with this issue. Imagine cleaning up a neglected 42" Kreonite roller-transport RA-4 print processor when the bleach-fix has sulfurized. I've done that more than once... So fresh fixer is just a "better safe than sorry issue", at least for me.

When I was selling Hope processors I got a call one day from the photo lab at Picitinniy Arsonal that the fix rack was running backwards in their film processor so the film was coming out unfixed inside the machine.

Being a bit baffled I went to the lab and they demonstrated the problem. I asked them how often they cleaned the processor racks, they said “not in the past few years”!

There was so much crud built up that it actually pushed some gears in the wrong direction so when the film hit the rack it reversed!

They spent the next few days cleaning, problem never recurred!

[Pere Casals]

So fresh fixer is just a "better safe than sorry issue", at least for me.

Sure, perfect fixing and washing is what ensures a perfectly permanent job. I'd add that what (IMHO) ensures that perfect job is a double bath fixing, also allowing an optimal chem yield.

[Peter Collins]

Consider throwing expired developer, stop bath, fixer out *on the ground*--bare, hoed soil--instead of down the drain. Soil microbes, moisture, and the cation exchange capability of the soil is a better place than the wastewater treatment plant, whose hydraulic residence times are relatively short, such that residuals might be discharged into the "receiving water"--your river, lake, etc.

[Vaughn]

Vaughn, 20 years in the labs at Kodak never told me that about Photo-Flo. Live and learn...

Both PF 200 and 2100 use Propylene glycol, where as PF 600 uses Ethylene glycol. I had a gallon bottle of the Photo-flo 2100 when I ran the university darkroom. If I remember correctly, I used 7 oz of the PF2100 to make a gallon of stock solution -- one fluid ounce of stock solution per gallon of water for working strength. The bottle outlasted the job.

[l2oBiN]

Than you for all the replies. I gather them that the PhotoFlow should be good indefinitely.

The rapid fixer has never been opened...have not checked for precipitation yet..

The hypo clearing agent should be good?

[Vaughn]

HCA, as long as it is not caked into a solid mass, will be fine. I just bought a couple 5-gal packs -- never thought to look, but due date 7-2020, which I will now ignore. One pkg arrived with a cut in the wrapper so I've made that one first.