Quality Papers

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

I realize its subjective opinion, but I would like to know what you think are the highest quality photographic papers (silver based) on the market today, and why.

Or, to put it another way, if you are selling your fine prints, what paper are you using to make those prints, and why.

[jp]

Most of the options are high quality. The market has been survival of the fittest and art oriented rather than mass consumer oriented.

[bob carnie]

If I told you Ilford matt fb paper was the best , many here would say I was crazy, but in fact many printers us this paper in conjunction with bleach sepia and selenium and it is outstanding.

There fore I would suggest most papers on the market are of high quality when used in a manner that suits the printer and photographer.

I like the Ilford papers btw but love foma for lith printing , Slavich as well for lith.

[koraks]

All papers I've tried so far are of high quality, at least the fiber ones. In terms of surface texture, I find Ilford hard to beat, but for lith, I'm with Bob on the fomatone.

[Corran]

If I told you Ilford matt fb paper was the best , many here would say I was crazy,

I love matte paper!!
Who would call that crazy??

I love the standard Ilford Matte, but you've really gotta nail the print, contrast, and everything to make a truly stunning print. If you're off a little...it doesn't work. Glossy is certainly a bit easier to print, IMO.

Ilford's Warmtone semimatte is also fantastic and my favorite as an in-between, easy to print but not super glossy. One has to keep watch on the highlights though.

Ilford's ART 300 paper is gorgeous if you have the right image to match it...

All of Ilford's papers are top-notch. The choice of which paper these days is not so much about quality but feel and personal opinion on the look of said papers.

[Alan9940]

As others have already said, IMO most of the silver papers today are very good. The only one I didn't care for was the new Oriental stuff...not even close to the old Seagull! My absolute favorite, though, if I had to pick just one would be Ilford MGFB Warmtone.

[David Karp]

I really like Adox MCC 110.

[interneg]

Pretty much all of the FB/ rag based darkroom papers on the market today are first class. Thankfully we seem to be getting past the 'silver-rich' BS. Two particular favourites are Fomatone & Ilford's Art300.

[Merg Ross]

I really like Adox MCC 110.

This has been my favorite paper since 2010; beautiful blacks and clean whites. I also use Ilford Classic much of the time.

[Drew Wiley]

Except for basic quality control, "Best" always has been and always will be a subjective issue. In fact, what is best for one image might not be best for the next, even when the same printmaker is involved. I've printed on four different papers using three different developers just this month. Every one of them can be called a premium quality paper; but even each of these has more than one personality, depending how it's handled. Who ever heard of an ice cream shop with only one flavor?

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

"I realize its subjective opinion, but I would like to know what you think are the highest quality photographic papers"

[Merg Ross]

A half-dozen have been mentioned. Consider them "highest quality" by preference of those using them. The list will likely grow. What papers do you presently prefer?

[Robert Bowring]

Oriental VC FB has always worked well for me.

[Fred L]

Bergger (glossy) is my favorite paper but I love the weight of the Oriental papers but still not sure about the look of Oriental. Plan to try Adox. Time Machine access would see me buying truckloads of Brilliant graded glossy ;)

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

"What papers do you presently prefer?"

I have pulled the Sinar, Hasselblad, and Beseler out of storage. Its winter in Minnesota. Might not find anything worth printing. But I should have some paper on hand if I do.

I note that Alan Ross uses Ilford papers for the Yosemite Edition prints he does.

By the way, the AA exhibition at the Yosemite Museum earlier this fall was wonderful. The quality and color of the prints was absolutely lovely.

[Merg Ross]

"What papers do you presently prefer?"

I have pulled the Sinar, Hasselblad, and Beseler out of storage. Its winter in Minnesota. Might not find anything worth printing. But I should have some paper on hand if I do.

I note that Alan Ross uses Ilford papers for the Yosemite Edition prints he does.

By the way, the AA exhibition at the Yosemite Museum earlier this fall was wonderful. The quality and color of the prints was absolutely lovely.

Good to hear that you have the cameras out of storage! I think you will be happy with one of the Ilford papers.

[Ted R]

Ilford for me, I like the slightly cream base of the warm tone glossy fiber base paper and the warm tone of the image. I also like the variable contrast system and the consistency that Ilford applies to the publication of technical information for their products.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I agree with the replies stating that most papers available today are very good.

I tend to favor Ilford Classic in the neutral (slightly warm) tone and the Ilford Warmtone is awesome with the right image. Foma 111 Varient in glossy is great and tones very nicely, also if you like the Foma paper you will like the Arista EDU Ultra equally well. I do love the Adox as well, but it is a tad bit more expensive than the others.

[esearing]

In my limited printing experience:
Bergger NB has a very rich tone and is cooler than the ilford MGFB Classic. I like it developed with Ansco 130 1:1 for an almost blue tone.

Ilford MGFB Warmtone is my favorite for toning, but Classic is nice too. Ilford Art is lovely but it needs right image or works better for larger prints due to its texture.

Bergger CB warmtone is almost identical to Ilford warmtone but seems to be a tad richer in depth. It is also much slower and responds differently to the developer character. IE LPD 1:1 vs 1:4 (warmer and slower).

[Chester McCheeserton]

I like the graded paper, Ilfobrom Galerie. It is unfortunate that all the contrast grades are not available, but I find it's subtle midtones, color after selenium toning, and appearance of depth looking through the surface are my favorite for contact prints – if the negative fits in terms of contrast.

I have heard that is has (or had at least) one of the highest silver contents of the available papers, though not sure if that is true.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Ilfobrom Galerie. It is unfortunate that all the contrast grades are not available...Not even 2 any longer. Grade 3 is all that's still being manufactured.

[Corran]

Link to official confirmation of that please.

B&H still has 16x20 in stock and 8x10 on Back-Order, not "Discontinued."

I love Galerie. For me G3 is a little heavy on the contrast. Seems closer to a 4 filter when printing MG.

I have an 8x10 negative from shooting yesterday I am going to try contact printing tonight on G3 though as it's a bit flatter than I normally develop. Maybe I'll have to standardize on that development if G2 is going away I still have a few hundred sheets of it.

[Oren Grad]

Link to official confirmation of that please.

What we know is that Galerie grade 2 is no longer listed on the Ilford Photo website - only grade 3 is - and there's a long thread at Photrio that started with someone in the UK reporting that a salesperson in Mobberley said grade 2 was discontinued.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-galerie-fb-grade-2-paper-discontinued.163560/

[Corran]

Thanks Oren. I saw the thread after a Google search. I hope that the salesperson is wrong. Seems strange to me to "announce" a discontinuation by just zapping the product page.

Just this year I stocked up on G2 and G3 Galerie and like them a lot. My first graded paper experience.

[Oren Grad]

I just asked Ilford/Harman about it via their website contact form.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Seems like a lot of folks responding to my question like Warm Tone papers. Interesting. I never thought I would hear that.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Seems like a lot of folks responding to my question like Warm Tone papers. Interesting. I never thought I would hear that.

somewhere there's a thread discussing using using iflord warmtone with moersch SE6 blue paper developer and then toning it gently with selenium. I tried it and works well if you prefer a more neutral or even cooler look. Whites of paper borders aren't as brilliant as reg multigrade though, but prob the route I would go if I was setting up to do a serious printing session in the future.

[Drew Wiley]

I won't repeat everything I said on Photrio, but have recently discovered Bergger Prestige VC Neutral Tone (not WT) to yield richer cool prints in amidol than Galerie, and do it without worrying about keeping different grades on hand. The only real minus is that it doesn't selectively bleach well.

[John Layton]

What's been working really well for me, in terms of the range of tonalities/colors/contrasts possible...is a combo of two Ilford papers (MGFB Classic and MGFB Warmtone) and two Moersch developers (4812 and SE-6), with occasional use of 1:19 KRST. I do not ascribe to the protocol of simply toning everything in KRST, as I do not always like the results.

I must say that I sometimes find Ilford Classic to be a bit too light sensitive...at least when working with the Heiland LED VC head for prints up to 16x20. My "workaround" for this involves either powering down the Heiland and/or using a 150mm G-Claron lens, which is optimized for use at f/22. By the way, I've been extremely impressed with this lens for enlarging from both 4x5 and 5x7 negatives.

[Corran]

...using a 150mm G-Claron lens, which is optimized for use at f/22. By the way, I've been extremely impressed with this lens for enlarging from both 4x5 and 5x7 negatives.

Hi John - how large are you enlarging typically when using your 150 GC? 4x typically? Just curious as I have one and use it photographically and it is definitely a great lens. I have also noticed the Ilford papers being very fast!

[John Kasaian]

Every time I settle in with a printing paper it gets discontinued.
If Vegas took bets on it, I'd could be a millionaire, I tells ya.

[John Layton]

Bryan...I'm using the 150 G-Claron to enlarge from 4x5 negatives to 16x20 and 20x30 (30x40's from 4x5 done vertically need the 120mm WA Rodagon), and from 5x7 negatives to 16x20, 20x30, and 30x40. Works great at all of these ratios. Right now I'm setting up my DIY horizontal enlarger to do 40x60's - which I will test out with a composite consisting of 15 11x14's (RC paper) butted and taped, and if all goes well I will build a larger version of my 30x40 "single tray" system: 184778 184779

[Corran]

Very cool John - didn't realize you were doing such large prints. I am still puzzling out the best way to make larger than 20x24 prints in my space, not to mention budget concerns.

But, now back to making contact prints for an open house at the gallery this weekend... :).

[Sal Santamaura]

…Ilfobrom Galerie. It is unfortunate that all the contrast grades are not available...


Not even 2 any longer. Grade 3 is all that's still being manufactured.


Link to official confirmation of that please...


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149221-Galerie-FB-grade-2-has-indeed-been-discontinued

I don’t post rumors. :)

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

I agree with the replies stating that most papers available today are very good.

I tend to favor Ilford Classic in the neutral (slightly warm) tone and the Ilford Warmtone is awesome with the right image. Foma 111 Varient in glossy is great and tones very nicely, also if you like the Foma paper you will like the Arista EDU Ultra equally well. I do love the Adox as well, but it is a tad bit more expensive than the others.


Mr. Biggerstaff:

I only have the computer images to go on, but your photographs of Aspens in Colorado are absolutely wonderful. (But then l love photos of trees). Anyway, when you print those Aspen photos what specific paper(s) do you use?

[Tim V]

I don't hear people talking about it much, but I lover Bergger Warmtone VCB Semi-gloss. I love the ivory tint and deep, rich blacks. While I haven't tried all the papers out there–nowhere near–I wonder if it's a somewhat unique product?

[dwross]

Every time I settle in with a printing paper it gets discontinued.
If Vegas took bets on it, I'd could be a millionaire, I tells ya.

You might consider making your own silver gelatin printing paper. It's lovely, simple, relatively inexpensive, and it can never be taken away from you. You can choose your own base paper color and texture, along with choosing the emulsion color you want. The only options not available (at this time) are RC-type high gloss and variable contrast. Just a thought :-).

[esearing]

Rollie makes a liquid emulsion that is variable contrast - RBM33

[dwross]

Rollie makes a liquid emulsion that is variable contrast - RBM33

Very true. And Ilford makes outstanding variable contrast paper. However, if the goal is be free of worry that a material might disappear on you, then handmade materials are the way to go.

[Drew Wiley]

This might be the best time ever for silver gelatin papers. Sure, they're VC and costly, but there are not only choices, but very high quality choices. Everything has its season. I'm going extinct myself someday.

[koraks]

I don't hear people talking about it much, but I lover Bergger Warmtone VCB Semi-gloss. I love the ivory tint and deep, rich blacks. While I haven't tried all the papers out there–nowhere near–I wonder if it's a somewhat unique product?

As it happens, I just did a test print on it yesterday. Indeed it seems like a very capable paper; I'll have to take a close look at it by daylight but my first impression is very good.

[dwross]

This might be the best time ever for silver gelatin papers. Sure, they're VC and costly, but there are not only choices, but very high quality choices. Everything has its season. I'm going extinct myself someday.

:D I feel a whiff of extinction breeze myself sometimes.

There is no doubt that older photographers are less inclined to learn new skills. Digital has been a steep enough climb! Let's face it. We're just about done for. And, as you say, right now is a good time for materials. Anyone who's been around for a while knows that is unlikely to persist.

My hopes are that a few younger photographers, still developing their lifelong vision, will recognize that control of their materials is the only way to build a lifelong portfolio. Others will understand the value of a niche to call their own. Some will simply want to go deep-in learning analog photography. Making handmade silver gelatin emulsion prints is no different from making Pt/Pd, carbon, gum, cyanotype, albumen, etc. Each informs us of the rich history of photography as an art form, which in turn can inform our own art. 2 cents, d

[koraks]

While I really like going through the motions of making things myself and learning new techniques, I realize very well that every hour spent on doing these things is not spent on the image itself. I think most artists are wise enough not to get lost in technique and use whatever is available to their advantage. Now is a good time for silver gelatine because it's there. In the future, there will be other things.

[bob carnie]

:D I feel a whiff of extinction breeze myself sometimes.

There is no doubt that older photographers are less inclined to learn new skills. Digital has been a steep enough climb! Let's face it. We're just about done for. And, as you say, right now is a good time for materials. Anyone who's been around for a while knows that is unlikely to persist.

My hopes are that a few younger photographers, still developing their lifelong vision, will recognize that control of their materials is the only way to build a lifelong portfolio. Others will understand the value of a niche to call their own. Some will simply want to go deep-in learning analog photography. Making handmade silver gelatin emulsion prints is no different from making Pt/Pd, carbon, gum, cyanotype, albumen, etc. Each informs us of the rich history of photography as an art form, which in turn can inform our own art. 2 cents, d

Hi Denise

I think that if I was a young artist starting out today, hand coated emulsions would be the route I would take now in 2019 vs relying on the Manufacturers to supply me the product. I say this for Gum, Pt Pd, Carbon Transfer, Cyanotype and Silver.
I have just been introduced to Gum Oil printing and I think I would go down this route if I had to start again.

You hit the nail on the head regarding a life long vision, this is what curators , gallerists and collectors are looking for and not flash in the pan groping for the next best image on Vellum with cardboard backing.. I see this as a problem for serious workers as they try to be current and really never learn how to control any one process.

I feel its taken me 40 plus years to learn CPrint, Inkjet, Silver , and now am cutting my teeth on Gum and pd.
You are exactly right on with your methods and am pleased to know you are still making your emulsions and I hope people buy your books and support all your efforts and hand coated silver is indeed a process worthy to be included in the great processes.
Bob

[Tim V]

Dry down is pretty large like other warmtone papers, but when the print is right it's amazing IMHO.

[dwross]

Hi Bob,

I agree completely with your observation about what curators, gallerists and collectors are looking for. I wish I had had your advice when I was starting out. Of course, most photographers want nothing more than the latest digital camera technology and the best inkjet materials available at any given time. Totally rational and understandable. My hope for them is that they find a vision that truly transcends technology and available commercial materials. It may be harder than most photographers starting out realize. But, there are a LOT of really talented, determined young photographers. I hope I live long enough to see the mature portfolios of a few of my current favorites.

[bob carnie]

Hi Bob,

I agree completely with your observation about what curators, gallerists and collectors are looking for. I wish I had had your advice when I was starting out. Of course, most photographers want nothing more than the latest digital camera technology and the best inkjet materials available at any given time. Totally rational and understandable. My hope for them is that they find a vision that truly transcends technology and available commercial materials. It may be harder than most photographers starting out realize. But, there are a LOT of really talented, determined young photographers. I hope I live long enough to see the mature portfolios of a few of my current favorites.

You and I both grew up in photography during the silver era, and during this period Kodak was not quite open about the archival capabilities of C print and for some of us Me, I spent thousands of hours making prints that today are not around, it was almost enough to make me want to quit. From 1991 on I started on a quest to find more permanent solutions starting by building a small silver printing shop, which today includes gum, pt pd and ink on paper (inkjet) . I am hoping that my work will last the test of time so I do all my personal work with gum over palladium, and over the last 9 years am on a long term mission to create a body of work that I can leave behind.
I spend a lot of time these days with younger artists and am please to see some of them working in very permanent processes and making the print from scratch so to speak.

[Corran]

I spend a lot of time these days with younger artists and am please to see some of them working in very permanent processes and making the print from scratch so to speak.

Unfortunately these days younger photographers/artists are hard-pressed to be able to afford equipment and materials for making silver prints. I was lucky to get in early before the real resurgence hit and bought most of my DR gear and cameras before the prices went up. It's increasingly difficult to find good used enlargers, and new ones are astronomically expensive. Couple that with the common plight of being unemployed or underemployed, and folks just can't swing it. Not to mention the necessity of a home darkroom for most not living in a big city that has a community DR (which still costs $$$).

And of course paper is very expensive, once one acquires the space and equipment to print!

I personally know many young photographers who cut their teeth on silver printing while in college, working on a BFA, who would love to do more, but simply can't afford it and/or don't have the space. I occasionally offer my DR to friends to come use so they can continue printing, and also develop b&w and color film for them to help them keep shooting film.

This is why lower-priced cameras and DR gear is interesting and popular - think the Intrepid line, soon to have an enlarger "system" in conjunction with their 4x5 camera. Hopefully innovation continues in the market to further help those who want to pursue this can, without spending a fortune.

[dwross]

Yes, unfortunately photography can be an expensive endeavor. Digital cameras, inkjet printers and ink are all expensive. Any good printing paper, silver or inkjet, is expensive. However, if a photographer "upgrades" his or her camera every year or so, the cost of digital can easily outpace film.

One last reflection on all this: analog photography isn't all or nothing. Sure, there are photographers who are quite ideological about analog. "Film! Do or Die!" types. However, most of us own digital cameras, even if our camera is also a phone. Digital files, no matter the number of megapixels, can make splendid digital/inkjet negatives for contact printings any of the alternative processes. None of the processes, including silver gelatin, actually require a full time, full scale darkroom.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that money and/or space are not limiting resources for making (non-digital) prints. The drive to do the work? Yes, that can definitely be a limiting resource. At the end of the day, we make the art we truly want to make. None of us would want it any other way.

[Drew Wiley]

The average gallery or curator seems a lot more interest in the latest rank gimmick than bothering to do their homework, and can't tell the difference between a xeroxed image and a hand-coated emulsion on the back of a rusty shovel. Do what enjoy and do well. If it pays in the long run, great. But don't count on it. It's all relative. Silver is expensive, gold is expensive, platinum is expensive. Ink is cheap but gets marked up 4,000%. I'm cooking up a cheese sauce for 8-ply matboard for a new pizza franchise, unless some curator thinks it's fine art first.