View Full Version : 4x5 light leaks when removing the dark slide
ckkim120
19-Nov-2018, 14:39
Hey all,
I recently bought a set of 5 Toyo 4x5 holders. After testing the holders (putting a flashlight in the camera and sitting in a dark room looking for light leaks), I noticed that there is just a bit of light leaking through the dark slide port as I am removing the dark slide. Once completely removed there are no leaks, however. I've noticed this behavior in almost all 10 of my used holders. Is this normal, or should holders be completely light tight even as one removes the dark slide?
Thanks.
Jim Andrada
19-Nov-2018, 20:09
Well they SHOULD be light tight but it's often a less than perfect world. I like to keep the dark cloth over my holders as I pull the slide. I've also found that not pulling absolutely straight out can make the problem worse ie putting any forward or rearward pressure on the slide while pulling.
ckkim120
19-Nov-2018, 20:34
Gotcha. So realistically, if you buy holders new they shouldn't have any leaking whatsoever? Or do most people just accept that there is a possibility of tiny light leaks and just compensate by covering up the camera with a dark cloth? Sorry, I'm relatively new to LF, and I'm not sure what is considered "normal".
Chris Chow
19-Nov-2018, 21:39
I personally cover the film side (rear standard) with a dark cloth to minimize the risk of light leaking into the film holder. Also the way you pull the darkslide also matters, as user may be prone to pulling the rear standard towards you while removing the darkslide. I use a blackjacket hybrid darkcloth.
In my personal opinion, if the film gets light leaks unless you cover your camera with a darkcloth, your holders or your camera is broken. I'm not quite sure what your specific issue is, from your description, but try them and see. That's really the only way to find out.
As you can tell, I don't cover my cameras with my darkcloth. I have before, when I had some serious issues with one camera and holder, and even doing that didn't help at times. I don't believe it is all that helpful - there is still plenty of light bouncing around under the DC and so if it's a problem, you will eventually get light-leaks, likely on the shot you really didn't want light leaks on...
Bob Salomon
19-Nov-2018, 22:12
Don’t remove the slides. Just pull them out till they uncover the film, use a permanent marker to mark a line to show you that the film is uncovered and ready for exposure. Shoot and push the holder back to cover the film. This prevents light getting into the slot, especially with older holders.
If shooting with the light coming directly toward the slot use a spare slide, hat, dark cloth to shade the slot.
In many cases, we're playing with 50-100 year old hand-me-down cameras and filmholders that we bought for spare money that worked perfectly when new and cost a month's wages new. That and the cost of film and the inability to see the same moment twice, we play it careful sometimes being superstitious or extra cautious about leaks.
I don't use a dark cloth when shooting to prevent leaks. I like to pull the darkslide all the way out and use it to prevent flare on the lens. It could be the springs that hold the film holder against the back of the camera are weak and you need to hold the film holder flat against the camera while removing the darkslide. This is what happens to most people who think think their film holder leaked. It could be the film holder. I have had very very few film holders leak and have acquired them from a bunch of sources. I'd suggest go shooting and see what happens; the experience is valuable.
kenj8246
20-Nov-2018, 08:39
Don’t remove the slides. Just pull them out till they uncover the film, use a permanent marker to mark a line to show you that the film is uncovered and ready for exposure. Shoot and push the holder back to cover the film. This prevents light getting into the slot, especially with older holders.
If shooting with the light coming directly toward the slot use a sore slide, hat, dark cloth to shade the slot.
^^ this. I've found a silver magic marker leaves a very easily observable indicator of how far to pull. It's gotten to be a habit, what can I say?
Bruce Watson
20-Nov-2018, 08:50
Don’t remove the slides. Just pull them out till they uncover the film, use a permanent marker to mark a line to show you that the film is uncovered and ready for exposure.
If it works for you, great. But to me this seems like a path to disaster (in the form of double exposures). I always load film in the darkroom with the white side of the pull tab facing out (means "unexposed" to me). When I make an exposure in the field, I flip the darkside so that the black side of the pull tab is facing out (which means "exposed" to me). Working like this I've never had an unintentional double exposure.
I'm with the people who block direct sunlight from the light trap by hands/hat/head/body/whatever shadows. Since I started doing that (after having to diagnose a light leak of course) I've had very few light leak problems.
Besides, if I didn't pull the darkslide, what would I use to shade the lens? ;)
Bob Salomon
20-Nov-2018, 08:52
If it works for you, great. But to me this seems like a path to disaster (in the form of double exposures). I always load film in the darkroom with the white side of the pull tab facing out (means "unexposed" to me). When I make an exposure in the field, I flip the darkside so that the black side of the pull tab is facing out (which means "exposed" to me). Working like this I've never had an unintentional double exposure.
I'm with the people who block direct sunlight from the light trap by hands/hat/head/body/whatever shadows. Since I started doing that (after having to diagnose a light leak of course) I've had very few light leak problems.
Besides, if I didn't pull the darkslide, what would I use to shade the lens? ;)
Just carry some tape and put a piece on the sides as film is exposed. A big enough piece let’s you jot down short notes.
ckkim120
20-Nov-2018, 09:52
Alright. I guess I'll just have to actually test them out. Thanks for all the replies everyone.
John Kasaian
20-Nov-2018, 10:20
I stack the deck in my favor and keep the dark cloth covering the rear standard. Of course my gear is older than dirt,
davewell
4-Mar-2019, 16:56
Hi everyone, I am new to large format (and new to this forum). I have been having some light leak issues similar to what has been mentioned in this thread. It is nearly always in the bottom left of an image where the base of the film holder meets the side rail.
You can see evidence of it in this image
188420
And to an even greater extent in this image
188421
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping the focusing cloth on once I have composed the image. Is this what would have been causing a light leak? Should I keep the dark cloth over the rear element whilst I pull out the ark slide, exposure the sheet and re fit the dark slide?
I am careful to not have the top of the holder pointing towards the sun (horizontal shooting.) If veritical shots, I pull the slide out and quickly flip it around and stick it about half an inch back in.
Kent in SD
pepeguitarra
4-Mar-2019, 17:13
May I ask what camera are you using? I had a similar problem because the camera I was using (Korona View) has very smooth easy to open springs holding the back and I was separating the film holder from the back of the camera for one small instance and only in a corner. After the advise of some veterans here, I grab the film against the camera before and during the pull of the dark slide. Problem over.
PS: I did tighten the back by of the springs by screwing another small screw to the spring. I also crazy glued one piece of 2mm x1.5mm to the carving (it was too wide) that holds the the lens holder and prevents it from coming out. Some, small sounding and spray painting, and nobody can notice it.
Surprised nobody mentioned that yet - avoid to bend the dark slide when pulling it from the film holder. And no, I don't take the dark slide out the whole way, it's asking for troubles even with new film holders or even with new roll film holders.
davewell
4-Mar-2019, 17:19
May I ask what camera are you using? I had a similar problem because the camera I was using (Korona View) has very smooth easy to open springs holding the back and I was separating the film holder from the back of the camera for one small instance and only in a corner. After the advise of some veterans here, I grab the film against the camera before and during the pull of the dark slide. Problem over.
PS: I did tighten the back by of the springs by screwing another small screw to the spring. I also crazy glued one piece of 2mm x1.5mm to the carving (it was too wide) that holds the the lens holder and prevents it from coming out. Some, small sounding and spray painting, and nobody can notice it.
It's a third generation Intrepid 4x5
davewell
4-Mar-2019, 17:20
Surprised nobody mentioned that yet - avoid to bend the dark slide when pulling it from the film holder. And no, I don't take the dark slide out the whole way, it's asking for troubles even with new film holders or even with new roll film holders.
I like this idea, however I also like to flip the darkslide so the black side is out indicating that the slide has been exposed (with the white side facing out showing the slide is unexposed).
pepeguitarra
4-Mar-2019, 17:32
It's a third generation Intrepid 4x5 I have the 4x5 Second Generation and had no problem with the bangy cords they use. Are the spring hard enough, or do you feel they are to easy to open?
Alright. I guess I'll just have to actually test them out. Thanks for all the replies everyone.
How did your tests go? I thought is was unusual for so many holders to look bad in the flashlight test you did. I have had occasional light leaks (maybe 2 or 3 out of over 450 shots) with Riteway Fidelity holders, all well-used, but if I considered the circumstance, the leaks were likely from not pulling the slide straight out, due to awkward tripod locations on steep hillsides. I have one slot in an old glass plate holder that always leaks, and I just leave the slide in partway to block the light.
If the sun is shining strongly on the holder's slot end, it is good to use a hat or something to block that intense light before pulling the slide.
Heroique
4-Mar-2019, 19:34
Not pulling the darkslide out all the way may protect against light leaks – and it's the way I usually handle the situation – but doing so introduces a lot of potential for subtle vibrations or movements of the holder at shutter snap. Even removing your fingers from the slide before taking the shot leaves the slide hanging like a wobbly sail off the end of the holder with precarious torque, whose tiny, image-wrecking movements may be invisible to the vigilant eye. Pulling the slide all the way out may invite light leaks, but it helps the camera settle down. For me, the conditions of the scene (sun, wind, drizzle, temperature), plus tripod position and general set up, help me decide the best way.
Doremus Scudder
5-Mar-2019, 11:37
Just try leaving a darkslide flapping around in the wind while trying to make a shot and you'll find out pretty quickly that it' not the way to go. That was a big problem with the Kodak Readyloads as well.
I don't cover the rear standard with the darkcloth either, same issue. However, I try to cover the darkslide slot immediately after pulling the slide. For quick shots, I'll just use the darkslide itself, holding it in position. Often I'll use my baseball cap. For long waits, I have a cover I made from discarded film boxes (black cardboard) and black tape. It press-fits over the exposed end of the filmholder and blocks any light. I have about a hundred used holders (Fidelity, Riteway, etc.) and haven't had a light leak from the darkslide slot for years now.... (knocking quickly on wood).
Best,
Doremus
It is also true that nothing forces you to leave the half drawn dark slide to flap in strong winds. In such cases I simply touch the dark slide to let it lean against my finger - you only need 1 hand to press the shutter release and the flexible dark slide easily absorbs any eventual slight movement of your finger tip. Never had any problem with that solution.
Jim Noel
5-Mar-2019, 13:24
In my personal opinion, if the film gets light leaks unless you cover your camera with a darkcloth, your holders or your camera is broken. I'm not quite sure what your specific issue is, from your description, but try them and see. That's really the only way to find out.
As you can tell, I don't cover my cameras with my darkcloth. I have before, when I had some serious issues with one camera and holder, and even doing that didn't help at times. I don't believe it is all that helpful - there is still plenty of light bouncing around under the DC and so if it's a problem, you will eventually get light-leaks, likely on the shot you really didn't want light leaks on...
If light is bouncing around under your dark cloth, it is too small. My minimum size for 8x10 is 5x7' , for 5x7 it is 4x6', which I also use for 4x5. If I am standing on a more reflective surface like cement or sand I clamp the cloth
underneath the camera to prevent that light bouncing up.
Jim Noel
5-Mar-2019, 13:25
hi everyone, i am new to large format (and new to this forum). I have been having some light leak issues similar to what has been mentioned in this thread. It is nearly always in the bottom left of an image where the base of the film holder meets the side rail.
You can see evidence of it in this image
188420
and to an even greater extent in this image
188421
admittedly, i haven't been keeping the focusing cloth on once i have composed the image. Is this what would have been causing a light leak? Should i keep the dark cloth over the rear element whilst i pull out the ark slide, exposure the sheet and re fit the dark slide?
absolutely!
RichardRitter
5-Mar-2019, 13:41
Many tears ago when Steve Grimes was alive he would reply to post on this forum.
One had to do with light leaks and he said the best insurance to protect against light leaks was to keep the dark cloth draped over the bellows and back.
If light is bouncing around under your dark cloth, it is too small. My minimum size for 8x10 is 5x7' , for 5x7 it is 4x6', which I also use for 4x5. If I am standing on a more reflective surface like cement or sand I clamp the cloth
underneath the camera to prevent that light bouncing up.
You're absolutely right. But I have no interest in carrying around a massive DC. In fact, I usually use a small lightweight jacket. So instead, I have tested and trust my 4x5 film holders. I do not ever get light-leaks unless I do something stupid.
The light-leaks I mentioned above ended up being from a badly-manufactured brand-new film holder. The only answer is to TEST your holders before critical work. And again I believe if you need to regularly cover your camera/bellows/holders with a massive piece of cloth to prevent regularly occurring leaks, that means your gear is broken.
And again I believe if you need to regularly cover your camera/bellows/holders with a massive piece of cloth to prevent regularly occurring leaks, that means your gear is broken.
I would agree. After all, film holders are not supposed to leak light from the dark slide opening - the velvet flap is there for that reason.
Chris Chow
5-Mar-2019, 23:55
Many tears ago when Steve Grimes was alive he would reply to post on this forum.
One had to do with light leaks and he said the best insurance to protect against light leaks was to keep the dark cloth draped over the bellows and back.
Same. I once tested the 4x5 film holders with trimmed B/W RC paper and tested direct and prolonged exposure to sunlight and the darkslides are not necessarily 100% opaque. It gives me a peace of mind to drape the camera bellows/back during sunny conditions.
When overcast or side lit conditions, as long as the sun doesn't hit the slot of the film holder, sometimes I don't drape the camera.
Given that I have only shot LF for over a year, I'm doing my best not to stress out while being out in the field worrying about equipment difficulties.
I have had a few where it isn't the darkslide of holder that causes leaks, but me when I try to remove or insert the darkslide. When in haste you wring it a bit away from the back light can enter between back and holder.
ckkim120
2-Apr-2019, 22:17
Sorry for the late response; I haven't had too many opportunities to shoot. Unfortunately, 1 out of 6 frames had a light leak, which isn't too bad. But I'm seeing the same exact leak pattern that I saw with my older holders. So I'm starting to think it may be an issue with the camera/bellows.
189575
Anyone else experience a light leak similar to the one above?
pepeguitarra
3-Apr-2019, 06:48
I had similar problem and blamed the film holders. However, it was my handling of the dark slide who caused the leaks. When pulling the dark slide, I now keep the back pressing against the rear standard with the other hand. It will avoid the back moving out and releasing the pressure on the film holder, which was the culprit. Light entered when the film holder came out of the light trap at the last instant of pulling the ds. My problem happened on an old Korona camera, which is perfect, except that the spring tension is not too strong.
ckkim120
3-Apr-2019, 09:06
I'll definitely keep this in mind next time I go shooting. Thanks for the advice.
Could possibly be that you are inserting the file holder from the wrong side? On my Arca Swiss there is the correct side, and then there is the other side :( I had a few leaks (can't say for sure if exactly like yours) until I realized both sides were not the same, even though it might not be apparent when inserting.
Bob
Paul Ron
3-Apr-2019, 10:55
ive often wondered if it was possable to replace the light traps?
i dont see any way to access them although it seems easy if they werent glued together. i gotta sacrifice one n see whats in there.
.
ckkim120
3-Apr-2019, 11:36
Interesting; I'm also shooting on an arca swiss. You're talking about the entire ground glass/"film holder, holder" assembly, right?
Yes.
I can't check right now, but IIRC the correct side to insert from is the one with the little round pull thing that is used to secure the reflex viewer. If yours is like mine, the correct side has a beveled ramp and the incorrect side has a square step (the step is small and easy to bypass). Inserted from the correct side with the bevel, the film holder will butt up against the inside of the step when fully inserted. Inserted from the wrong side, the film holder will displace that small step and potentially lead to a light leak. I have a relatively new model (141 rear / 110 front) so I'm not sure if older models are the same, though my 8x10 Arca is the same and it is one of the earlier F-line models (171 front).
At least that is my theory and I am sticking to it!
When I discovered this issue, I made a sticker that says "Insert Film Holder From This Side" and affixed it to the correct side of the groundglass / film holder assembly. Too easy to get caught up in the moment and inserted from the wrong side without this admonishment staring me in the face
Bob
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