So now I know why photo clubs are useless

[Steven Ruttenberg]

The judges know little about judging. Regardless of judges, the same people always win and the judges know little about what makes a good image. Yeah, my images got tanked. Somenof them had been well received by professionals in the past. I have decided to just attend to see friends and no longer compete. As it seems competition is anethma to creativity. In fact my worst image placed while my best got killed. Hmm.

[Leigh]

The judges know little about judging. Regardless of judges, the same people always win and the judges know little about what makes a good image. Yeah, my images got tanked. Somenof them had been well received by professionals in the past. I have decided to just attend to see friends and no longer compete. As it seems competition is anethma to creativity. In fact my worst image placed while my best got killed. Hmm.Absolutely true.

I've noticed the same thing in the various clubs I've tried over the years.

Most recently (decades ago), i tried a club in which a relatively wealthy individual always entered scenic shots from his worldwide travels, and always got first place (and 2nd etc) for mediocre snapshots.

Many better photos were entered without getting even honorable mention.

It's entirely a scam.

- Leigh

[pepeguitarra]

#me_too. I entered the first year and won with a really nice photo. Later on, for several years, I was not selected at all, in fact, I got really bad comments from most of my photos. Most of them did suck, but couple were nice. Also, most of the people evaluating were young guys who did not know about film, and get crazy with the abundance of colorful images provided by some of the digital cameras.

[Two23]

I've been a member of my local camera club for a number of years now and do get some benefit from it. We have twice yearly constests and each has a class for color shots and one for b&w. I generally do OK in these contests but think the winners are usually pretty good. There are a lot of bird photographers though, and I rarely take bird photos. Everyone likes to think their shot is the best, LOL. I do get some good tips from the presentations and have met a lot of great folks. All in all I think camera clubs are a great place to learn and socialize. My intended entries for the next contest:

1. D&I Train at Falls Trestle
2. Lincoln Confers with Grant

[Winger]

It depends very much on the club itself and the level of quality of the local judges. I was in a club in Massachusetts which always had very good judges. I didn't always agree with them, but they weren't way out there. It's also important to understand that the judge is still a person and just has their own opinion. The world doesn't have to agree. I was then in a club in a different state which used 3 members of the club to judge internal competitions - it was horrible, imo, because it was very easy to know which image was whose once you'd been there about three months. And they completely devalued B&W compared to color (they didn't keep them separate for awards). Now I'm in a club which doesn't do competitions at all. The focus is on learning through shooting together and critiquing. I enjoyed competitions a little in MA, but I get more out of the club I'm in now.

[Vaughn]

There is a problem if competition within the club is the most important aspect of the club.

[cuypers1807]

I went to a local club meeting hoping to find some new photography friends and it felt like a meeting of the "crypt keepers". If an oxygen tank had been in the corner, it would not have seemed out of place. It felt like a private club and they were very unwelcoming because I still shoot film and make tintypes. I never went back.

[Alan Klein]

I've been a member of my local camera club for a number of years now and do get some benefit from it. We have twice yearly constests and each has a class for color shots and one for b&w. I generally do OK in these contests but think the winners are usually pretty good. There are a lot of bird photographers though, and I rarely take bird photos. Everyone likes to think their shot is the best, LOL. I do get some good tips from the presentations and have met a lot of great folks. All in all I think camera clubs are a great place to learn and socialize. My intended entries for the next contest:

1. D&I Train at Falls Trestle
2. Lincoln Confers with Grant

I like #2 but you have to clean up your negative and spot your prints better. Also, ask them to smile. They look like there losing a war.

[Duolab123]

The judges know little about judging. Regardless of judges, the same people always win and the judges know little about what makes a good image. Yeah, my images got tanked. Somenof them had been well received by professionals in the past. I have decided to just attend to see friends and no longer compete. As it seems competition is anethma to creativity. In fact my worst image placed while my best got killed. Hmm.

I do what I do. I couldn't give two shits what a "judge" thinks. I've got a couple portraits of my cats. I think they are spectacular. I do it for my enjoyment. My wife is a curator, she likes a lot of my work. If she doesn't I ignore her :-)

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I've been a member of my local camera club for a number of years now and do get some benefit from it. We have twice yearly constests and each has a class for color shots and one for b&w. I generally do OK in these contests but think the winners are usually pretty good. There are a lot of bird photographers though, and I rarely take bird photos. Everyone likes to think their shot is the best, LOL. I do get some good tips from the presentations and have met a lot of great folks. All in all I think camera clubs are a great place to learn and socialize. My intended entries for the next contest:

1. D&I Train at Falls Trestle
2. Lincoln Confers with Grant

Both are good and both would get jacked in my club. They are way outside the sandbox of what is typically judged. For example, black and white is took to literally mean black and white. No shades in between.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I think clubs can be good and ours is sometimes with presentations. But they are extremely about competitions and do not require judges to explain why they voted the way they did fir the winning and losing images. No critique is ever given. So, if you want good scores you have to make image that fits a certain style. I don't make images that way. I don't typically follow rules like thirds, don't center subject, etc. I make images for me first, then others. For sure I make sucky images and I have posted some here, but I am an artist first. Competitions can be good if you also receive critique/feedback on your images from people who do not dogmatically adhere to a certain rule or standard.

I will keep with my club as I have been thete a long time, but I may not compete much. So frustrating to experience sometimes.

[Corran]

I suggest you ignore the local "photo club contests" but also not assume the judges don't know anything or that your work is necessarily of stand-out quality. Stay humble and work towards your personal vision for your photography, but be aware others' opinions on such are still valid, so don't be close-minded. Ultimately keep in mind your audience (who you are shooting for vs. who you are showing it to).

The LF group some of us started recently had a meeting where we shared and discussed prints, both technically and artistically. Long-term I have no interest in having "competitions" in such a group. Sharing and discussing, as one would do in a collegiate art class critique sessions, is much more conducive IMO. There is no "best of show" in the real world.

[Corran]

PS I have spent a lot of money sending in images and applications to local, regional, and national shows. Never have I ever gotten actual "critique" except the one or two times I've contacted a judge personally (in those situations, I knew the judge at least tangentially so I felt comfortable doing so). If you think your local club is bad, try getting into any major show anywhere unless you are following "the script." I have been in several national shows and had some smaller solo or group exhibitions but I'm still a "nobody" but suffice to say a local photo competition is not important whatsoever.

[Mark Sawyer]

It's not just the "photo clubs". The Tucson Museum of Art has selected real estate advertising photos and high school senior portraits for its Arizona Biennial exhibition/competition.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

It's not just the "photo clubs". The Tucson Museum of Art has selected real estate advertising photos and high school senior portraits for its Arizona Biennial exhibition/competition.

Really? Sounds like Phx area.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I suggest you ignore the local "photo club contests" but also not assume the judges don't know anything or that your work is necessarily of stand-out quality. Stay humble and work towards your personal vision for your photography, but be aware others' opinions on such are still valid, so don't be close-minded. Ultimately keep in mind your audience (who you are shooting for vs. who you are showing it to).

The LF group some of us started recently had a meeting where we shared and discussed prints, both technically and artistically. Long-term I have no interest in having "competitions" in such a group. Sharing and discussing, as one would do in a collegiate art class critique sessions, is much more conducive IMO. There is no "best of show" in the real world.

I agree.

I don't assume mine are all that, but even the club members who win will complain about judges. The thing we used to do was have critiques of the winning and losing prints. They don't do that anymore. It is like they are afraid to hurt someone's feelings. They don't do critiques anymore which is a shame as that is where you learn.

[pepeguitarra]

There are clubs and there are clubs. A club at my work place has about 30 people, they range from the point and shoot novice with no idea of photography to the guy in charge of the graphic department, who thinks that Photoshop is the latest thing and the drones are one step above that. So, the Photoshop guys are the ones in charge and somehow have the control of meetings and subjects, etc. When they found out that I was doing Large Format, they showed some fake exciting face for few seconds. After that, they decided that the club was digital. It was hard for them to understand the real photo taking. Then another club was more about gadget owning. Some the guys changed equipment every two or three months. Then, I quit both. So, I am now dancing on my own.! This is the only place to find some conversation subject and sometimes an answer. ;(

[swmcl]

Any of the clubs I've visited are fixated on competition which is almost impossible to keep entering many times because of the nature of the subject doesn't suit LF. What made me quit them was when I entered a Black and White section only to be outdone by a digital photo of a chilled bottle of wine and an empty glass. OK the bottle had been shaded a lovely deep rose colour. Something that could never be achieved in any chemical B&W process I know.

I note also that the topics of conversation for the local group are getting more and more mundane. Digital photography is making people really, really lazy and dumb. (Sorry to be forthright ...)

The only way forward is a specialist group dedicated to film only but that wouldn't have too many members ...

[koraks]

Ask yourself: do you need external validation, and to what extent? Does the nature of validation that a contest may give suit your personal needs or preferences?
Personally, I don't see merit in taking part in contests. For me, it would not add anything to my enjoyment or learning in what I do.

[freecitizen]

Nowadays I only enter photos in Club competitions to show the others what I have been doing lately. It is my way of exhibiting my work.

I leave my ego at home on competition nights. And the judges comments have no real effect any more.

You can't be an artist in a camera club ....... they just won't let you.

[Peter Lewin]

The LF group some of us started recently had a meeting where we shared and discussed prints, both technically and artistically. Long-term I have no interest in having "competitions" in such a group. Sharing and discussing, as one would do in a collegiate art class critique sessions, is much more conducive IMO. There is no "best of show" in the real world.
This is the answer: the problem is the typical definition of "Photo Club" which is centered on competitions where monthly winners are picked based on accumulated points. I belong to the New Jersey Photo Forum, which is a group very similar to what Corran describes, except it is not limited to Large Format, but to photography in general. It meets once per month, attendees are encouraged to present recent work, and the group comments on what they like or don't like. There is no judging as such, certainly no "winner." About half the members are professional or semi-professional photographers which has both good and bad points: the positive is that they know what they are talking about and are very good photographers themselves; the negative is that professional photography is almost entirely digital, so the few film photographers, and even fewer large format like me, are essentially "alternative process" presenters, but since it is the image that is being critiqued, that's not too much of a negative. The Forum collects lists of upcoming shows that members can submit to at each meeting, and has its own curated show once a year, where the three curators are chosen from nearby museums, newspapers, or are photographers themselves. I give so much detail because I think these are things that other clubs can emulate to their advantage.

[esearing]

My experience with clubs is mixed, but definitely soured once I joined the "management" and saw the political nature of the beast. These days I find it better just to hang out with other photographers and discuss my work and theirs and try to learn something new or put into practice something forgotten. You will find in the field that even shooting the same scene side by side each photographer sees something different , so discussing the shot and your choice of lens, shutter, light, texture, etc. will bring out more in your images and helps you solidify your vision, or adjust it. You can also learn about different workflows and post processing and see the direct results if you share images.

[Tin Can]

This forum is a type of club. While we allow unknown lurkers, they are not allowed input.

The image threads are specified as no critique unless the poster requests it.

We also have many club members who never post any image. I was one of those for a long time. Trepidation...

Now most of us limit critique to attaboy or attagirl.

Unfortunately online imaging, critique and comradeship has supplanted IRL for many.

I would like to see more Print Sharing projects (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?147084-2018-2019-8X10-11X14-Print-Exchange-begins-today&p=1453135&viewfull=1#post1453135) as they are safe, real and educational.

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. I see that PSA still exists. Centuries ago a colleague who was an enthusiastic photographer tried to convince me to join the local PSA affiliate. I went to a couple of meetings, found that the focus on competition and the PSA aesthetic weren't for me. Since then I've fisited a few other PSA affiliates' meetings. Same conclusion.

Tastes differ. If you like what clubs do, fine. If you don't, equally fine. But there's no reason to abuse them for not pleasing you.

[Randy]

The local club I attend does not have contests or judging, we just share a few images that we have shot over the past month. Some of the members will enter submissions into local judged shows / exhibits, and usually a few of us win awards. Only one of our members (that I know of) gets bent out of shape if he doesn't win.

Personally, I like winning a couple hundred $, but I derive much more pleasure if a person or two come up and talk to me about my photograph.

[Two23]

I like #2 but you have to clean up your negative and spot your prints better. Also, ask them to smile. They look like there losing a war.

Shot on glass negative, I deliberately left all the imperfections. Was looking for a period look. At that time things were much more formal and people did not smile in the photos. (I collect photos from that period.)


Kent in SD

[bloodhoundbob]

It could be worse, folks. Having been involved either as a contestant or observer in AKC sanctioned dog shows for the past 35 years, judging at dog shows makes photo club judging look rather benign. At least in club judging, big money payoffs to the judge or sleeping with the judge is not a factor. But since my last camera club experience was in high school in the 50s, what do I know? I do know that the dogs would be laughing at the humans, if they could. I have learned much more on this forum than I could possibly could have in any club.

[Two23]

Nowadays I only enter photos in Club competitions to show the others what I have been doing lately. It is my way of exhibiting my work.

I leave my ego at home on competition nights. And the judges comments have no real effect any more.

You can't be an artist in a camera club ....... they just won't let you.


In my club everyone votes on the photos in the twice a year competitions. So, it's the massed opinions of about 20 people. I've given four presentations over the past several years, mostly about photo history. Once a month we also give a selected person 15 minutes to show a projected portfolio of what they've been doing lately. All in all our group is about fun, so I keep showing up. There is one other guy that shoots film besides me. I shoot both digital and film. The film (or glass negs) can come from the nearly a dozen cameras I own, everything from a 1904 Brownie to a Chamonix 4x5 or Korona 5x7. There is real interest in these cool cameras. :) We meet in a back room of the local camera store.


Kent in SD

[scheinfluger_77]

...but I'm still a "nobody" but suffice to say a local photo competition is not important whatsoever.

PFFFTT! If you are a “nobody” than many more of us are just hacks. Like Maris, you hit a homer most of the time. As far as i am concerned many of you are inspirations to me. It. Is tough to get in the working rythm once out for so many years. But i am actually making progress on a place to work.

Now, lest all that effusive praise go to your heads.......... :p

Besides, we all are already members of the best camera club... aren’t we!

[Jim Jones]

I value a good camera club enough to drive the 100 miles to Kansas City once a month for the Wyandotte Camera Club meetings. They must be doing something right: the club is a 100 years old. It is still B&W only. This provides an opportunity for B&W photographers to compete among themselves rather than against color images. Other clubs in the area satisfy those who prefer color and some of the newer techniques. Competitions are a significant item on the agenda. Some judging is done by outsiders; some in group discussions within the club. These friendly discussions can be informative and inspirational. All prints are mounted and matted. This hones our presentation skills and prepares us for competition outside the club. I've also belonged to clubs more like those that others have complained about. If one is stuck in a club with shortcomings, try to nudge that club in the right directions. Other members may be hoping someone would do just that.

[Daniel Stone]

One of my biggest gripes is competitions requiring digital submissions, NOT physical prints. I'm younger than many others here, but I'm firmly in the "old school" camp of looking at, and comparing, physical prints, not digital images on a screen.

Competition can be healthy, IMO. Unfortunately, in today's world, peoples skin is so thin, the mildest critique can send someone into a full-blown emotional(and sometimes physical) meltdown.

If you ain't got the salt to listen to critiques of your work, don't enter competitions :rolleyes:

-Dan

[Graham Patterson]

Way back, when I used to have some club involvement, it was not uncommon for members to research the judge and choose their entries accordingly. Which makes sense if it is treated as a competition and not a chance to showcase one's vision.

Probably the area I found most interesting was international print folios. Granted there were comments and a ranking method, but when you are surface shipping a folio across the globe, immediate gratification didn't happen. At one time I was participating in exchanges (from the UK) with the USA, Australia, and South Africa. This was pre-internet, so the only way to see international work otherwise was in magazines, books, or exhibitions.

These days I am lucky to be doing any photography, let alone keeping up with a regular club schedule!

[jp]

our area had a photo club for a little while.. The participants were from all skill ranges in photography. It was several years ago when I was bored with digital and the participants were mostly interested in getting better at digital... it was mostly social and no contests. I met a few people who remain acquaintances. I did a cyanotype contact printing demo which was completely out of character for what the people thought they wanted to learn. The club didn't last long; sorta like herding cats. Last summer I participated in an alt process exhibit with one of the ladies in the club who thanked me for introducing cyanotypes to her! She took more classes on alt process and made a body of photography based on cyanotypes suitable to be chosen to be exhibited.. Clubs aren't all competition and groupthink. The learning about traditional stuff is possible in this setting if we meet with the right people. That said, I wouldn't have gone to more than one meeting if it were about competition and basic digital.

[jon.oman]

Shot on glass negative, I deliberately left all the imperfections. Was looking for a period look. At that time things were much more formal and people did not smile in the photos. (I collect photos from that period.)


Kent in SD

The exposures were so long, it was hard to smile. So, most people didn't.

[Bruce Watson]

The judges know little about judging.

While that may be true, it misses the point entirely.

Basing your self esteem, and therefore your confidence, on what other people think of you isn't at all helpful. It may be quite harmful depending on how deeply you go into that particular rat hole.

Do the work that you feel works for you. What other people think doesn't matter; other people aren't doing the work. You are.

[Kerosene Hat]

I got back into photography a few years ago by joining the local photos society...which is really a Camera club, and now, a Photoshop plug-in club. After doing well in competitions for a few years, I placed more value on my monthly finishes...and grew more frustrated the more I placed my own value on these competitions. Then, I realized what won-usually, images that combined at least two of the following ingredients:

- Expensive Photo vacations to exotic locales
- Heavy use of Photoshop, after effects, excessive sharpening and/or HDR
- Black and white, but little use of grey
- Street Photography a ala Steve McCurry of indigent people in exotic global locations, usually of people with brown or darker skin, aka travel poverty porn

I think the best club to be in is the one where you can make images that mean something to you, where you can experience your work and vision growing, and, ideally, where the members know the difference that bigger formats make. That last part is optional, but it sure is nice to know the difference.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

We get no comments from judges at all and no one knows who did what unless you place. So our club is not all tgat. I entrr because it keeps me ptoducing and constantly looking. I just need to remember it is the art, not the competition. No one at these things realuze the work that goes into film photography. Plannining, to completion. Digital I suspect mist spend less than 5 minutes be tween taking and printing image. One person I know pays 11 bucks to have Walgreens print their pictures. 11 a piece. I suppose if it works.

I do compete to show work however, we have no reviews of winning photographersbwork or of losing work. We don't seem to value critiques. There is a place nearby though that I am a member of that holds critiques of people's work using well known artists. Hopefully, they are concerned with the art and not how many points for fitting a certain form.

Perhaps I just need to learn to shut up and go with the flow.

[John Kasaian]

I think the important consideration is, what kind of liquor do they serve at the exhibition openings? :o

[koraks]

I think the important consideration is, what kind of liquor do they serve at the exhibition openings? :o
And, even more importantly, whether the drinks are complimentary.

[Bruce Watson]

I just need to remember it is the art, not the competition.

Yes. This. You can only really compete with yourself.

[paulbarden]

There is a problem if competition within the club is the most important aspect of the club.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I think the important consideration is, what kind of liquor do they serve at the exhibition openings? :o

Right!

[Ken Lee]

Yes. This. You can only really compete with yourself.

++ :)

A while back there was an interview linked here which consisted of a warm discussion between John Sexton and others about Brett Weston.

If I recall correctly, they mentioned that Brett did not hesitate to return to the same basic subject, always hoping to improve on what he had done before.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

When I moved north three years ago I joined a Portland based photography club. It was mainly to get the lay of the land and see what was going on. There are some fine photographers in the group and 95% digital I believe. Mostly projected images and sometimes prints and again mostly color. I shoed some of my 8x20 carbon transfer prints one time and blew them away but the comments were that is a lot of work..... why do you do it??? So I don't share my work anymore with the group except after I had a solo show in Astoria they asked me to talk about Carbon Transfer. I showed them my hand made book of carbon prints with original carbon text and they were impressed and I received many great questions. I have found that attending my critique group once a month is more beneficial. I like honest opinions about my work but ultimately I don't care what someone else thinks. If it moves me that is all that matters.

[Keith Fleming]

In Post #32, Graham Patterson mentioned that some club members would research the judge so they would know the best type of image to enter in a club contest. Back in the early 1970's, I was stationed in Maine, and joined a club in Portland. Some of the members were active in PSA national competitions. Their advice was to never, never enter a photo of a lighthouse in a New England competition because in that region lighthouses were clichés. So they entered their lighthouse images in competitions out in the Midwest--and often did well with the judges.

Keith F.

[Jac@stafford.net]

There should be a club that judges judges. :)
Like a Supreme Court for club judges?
HORRORS!

[Bernice Loui]

Art is not and should not be a contest. Once art becomes a contest, the contest is loaded with intent and those granted the special privilege of "judging" is allowed to impose their intent upon contestants.

Art should be much about what an artist has to say and express based on their experiences with the human condition. Artist who cultivate an audience who understands and appreciated their offering is much of what art is about..

What would be far more constructive for all involved is to take all competition out of sharing art and simply appreciate and try to understand what each artist has to say with their work regardless of where they might be on the continuum of life.



Bernice

[Mark Sawyer]

There should be a club that judges judges. :)
Like a Supreme Court for club judges?
HORRORS!

I think I'd be well-qualified for that club! After all, I like beer! Don't you like beer? My friends like beer! Sometimes I like too much beer...

[John Kasaian]

And, even more importantly, whether the drinks are complimentary.

Exactly!

[tgtaylor]

Many of the so-called "artists" that I have run into on the internet- especially the "photographers" -are among the most egotistical, back-stabbing, and deceitful people on the planet.

Thomas

[Vaughn]

I think the important consideration is, what kind of liquor do they serve at the exhibition openings? :o

I attended an opening and only had four bottles of beer over several hours. Found myself taking a little nap at one point -- the next day I found that they were 9% beers.

I have guest-judged a few photo competitions, not an easy task, in some ways enjoyable, always challenging, but not an experience I seek after. In all cases I made myself available to entrants (or anyone who showed up) after judging. Once I gave everyone a sticky-note and asked them to place it on a photo of their choice (the show was already hanging), then I went around and talked about each piece with a sticky note. I kept it informal and hopefully informative. It allows the entrants to realize that judges are idiots just like them.

[pgk]

I was asked to judged a local competition between two local clubs earlier this year. I did so and the consensus was that the right club was the winner. However I apparently now have the reputation of being a harsh critic. In the main this was for pointing out fundamental flaws in images; commenting on poor composition, muddled and overly complex content, disliking composite images where the lighting on different components differed or when they offered nothing to enhance the subjects, and so on. It was an interesting experience (which I suspect that I won't be asked to repeat). Whilst I have no base problem with competitions or critiquing images, I do wonder why there is such an emphasis placed on competitive photography in photographic clubs, especially when there appears to me to be a lack of understanding of some basic aspects of imagery such as lighting and composition. My thought was that many members would do well to read up on photography and study the innumerable images shot well in the past, rather than try to produce material which sits well within the competitive environment extolled as being what club photography is substantially about. That said many seem to enjoy the club scene so it works well for them.

[goamules]

When a club doesn't reward your work I think of a few things:

"There is no accounting for taste." People are slaves to pop culture. Go to a Southwestern art show and see what photos are selling: hyper saturated, artificial colored sunset landscapes. Turn on any TV commercial and it's the musical equivalent: Heavy beat hip-hop/rap soundtrack. Remember, most critics hated Impressionism in France, and Van Gogh never sold a painting.

"people go with what they know." If your club doesn't explain photography, discuss lighting, media, techniques, composition, then the judges will just pick what "feels right." See above, they'll go with what is currently popular.

"Pretty faces, dress, and natural objects sell." You can't mess up a beautiful face or body, no matter how bad your photography is. Judges are tapping into thousands of years of evolution when they see one and say "I can't look away from this one...." There is a good photographer that is taking pretty ordinary portraits, but the subject is American Indians in native dress and winning accolades. You can't go wrong with complex, historic costumes.

"Macabre and shocking sometimes sells" - Nude girls in gas masks - the combination is an instant hit....with some people. Dead fish on the beach, maybe not so much. Tattood girls, same-o.

[goamules]

It would be interesting to submit a forgotten classic by Weston, Stieglitz, or Adams and see if any judge awards it, of if it's bypassed for the current fashion.

[jnantz]

hi OP

sorry for the snark but ...
you want a camera club that is more your vision of how things should be, start your own, and hand pick members and judges for the contests :)
i'm guessing in my ignorance is bliss kind of way photo clubs are like anything else ..
all political, and people who are ALPHAs typically are in charge ( or there is some sort of puppet master )
because that is the way of the world. ( and it all ends up like lord of the flies like thomas says )
personally, id rather be involved with a cooperative art gallery. no worries about competition and my award winning hand painted
cyanotypes made with an a 2nd generation iPhone xerox internegative not winning because someone thought it was a mistake.
i also have a laugh track / laff box wherever i go so people know when i am trying to be funny, and make sure i either have my instant-rimshot
button on my phone always ready or a friend with a drum kit nearby..

sorry to read your club experience didn't work out ..

[Willie]

My Uncle started a Camera/Photo club in Brigham City, UT a few decades ago. The idea was to help those interested in Photography to improve their skills and get exposure to all types of photography. They showed images each meeting and had a speaker. Critique and open discussion was encouraged while the grading of many traditional groups was not.
A few of those involved photographed with view cameras and some with point & shoot cameras, no one was turned away. At that groups in towns nearby gave them the reputation as "elitists".
Speakers? From Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee to newspaper photographers for Salt Lake Tribune to Fine Art Nude specialists to Tom Till to Tom Mangelson to Playboy centerfold photographers. University Photo instructors and Art Professors to Industry representatives to custom printers. Anyone who was talented and excellent is what they pushed for. The whole slant was to improve through education and actual field photo trips.

They had at least two Gallery exhibits in actual Art Galleries while he was there and I understand after he moved they had a few more. St. George main City Art Gallery, a really good venue as well as some in Salt Lake and Brigham City Museum Gallery. I know he and the others pushed for fine work and museum presentation with the prints.

He has been gone for more than a decade and it is still going. Don't know the direction it took after these years but I do know they were not afraid of pushing for high quality work. The attitude was simple. Present the highest quality photographers and educators possible and encourage learning from them to improve your work no matter your level.

I know there are other groups that push this and it is fun to see when it happens.

[Tin Can]

It would be interesting to submit a forgotten classic by Weston, Stieglitz, or Adams and see if any judge awards it, of if it's bypassed for the current fashion.

Interesting for Copyright Lawyers!

Heck, I copied a few famous portraits from a book in my home for private experience and the gang here dunned me as thief. Speak truth and die.

I claim Fair Use for testing/learning my process. They hang on my wall next to my efforts to emulate.

Never posted anywhere.

[Leigh]

...this was for pointing out fundamental flaws in images; commenting on poor composition, muddled and overly complex content...I've received similar comments on some of my photos.
My response was that the judges were idiots.

My job as a photographer is to record the world, not to rebuild it to conform to my vision.
The world is not a neat, clean, tidy, organized place. Quite the opposite.

- Leigh

[mike rosenlof]

I participate in a group. Maybe it's a club, but it might be more of a support group. A few of us get together at a local brewpub once a month. We talk about what we've been doing, mostly photography related. Most of us will show photos, either projected on a screen, or pass around prints. Most of us will have a camera to show, maybe something we've been using lately, maybe some oddball old thing.

It's fun. We don't really critique photos. The type of photos is all over the place, landscape, street, product shots, travel. It's fun.

[pgk]

I've received similar comments on some of my photos.
My response was that the judges were idiots.

My job as a photographer is to record the world, not to rebuild it to conform to my vision.
The world is not a neat, clean, tidy, organized place. Quite the opposite.

- Leigh

I've seen such comments repeatedly on various photographic fora and as ever they are wrong.

So, all photographs are good photographs? No, I don't think so. When you take an image you make choices. These can result in an image which works or one which does not and varying shades in between. If you can't recognise that then you are taking unthought out snapshots. And if you place such images in any sort of photographic competition they will receive such comments. After all competitive requirements are for some images to be judged/considered better than others .....

[jp]

It would be interesting to submit a forgotten classic by Weston, Stieglitz, or Adams and see if any judge awards it, of if it's bypassed for the current fashion.

You could do that with their name attached. Just enter with their name... Contests I've seen are judged anonymously from jpegs.

[malexand]

In the fine words of Groucho Marx -
"I would never join a club that would accept me as a member."

[Jim Jones]

I've received similar comments on some of my photos.
My response was that the judges were idiots. . . .

- Leigh

Over many years I've learned a lot from those idiots.

[Eric Rose]

I started the Calgary Large Format Users Group probably 10 years ago. I absolutely HATE photo clubs for all the reasons stated above. I tried liking the Calgary Photographic Society but what a bunch of A-holes. My father told me when I first got into photography to stay away from clubs and especially their competitions. His reason being you will be forced into a "group think" way of making your photographs plus if you enter a competition you might well have the best photo there but if the judges get all gooey over pussy cat photos and your isn't a pretty pussy cat photo you will loose every time.

Our LF group has no president, no organization at all actually. We meet once a month, talk gear, technique, photos and politics. We always have a theme for each month and some give it a whirl and some don't. There is NO judging, just encouraging. People with attitudes don't stay around for very long. We try and get out together as much as possible. It's a USER GROUP plain and simple. A collection of similarly interested misfits. We also have good representation from women as well.

Eric

[pgk]

From which we can only conclude that people are different. So be it.

[Leigh]

Let's take a very specific example...

I took a photo of one of the lock houses on the C&O Canal just north-west of Washington, DC.
It wasn't fine art, but it was a nice photo with fall leaves on the ground and good lighting.

It was criticized because there was a Coke can visible in the picture. True, there was a Coke can.

Why was that a basis for criticism? I did not put the can there, nor did I remove it.
Perhaps I wanted to use the shot to illustrate an article about trash at public parks.

In any case, it accurately recorded reality. What would be a basis for criticizing it?

- Leigh

[Two23]

Let's take a very specific example...

I took a photo of one of the lock houses on the C&O Canal just north-west of Washington, DC.
It wasn't fine art, but it was a nice photo with fall leaves on the ground and good lighting.

It was criticized because there was a Coke can visible in the picture. True, there was a Coke can.

Why was that a basis for criticism? I did not put the can there, nor did I remove it.
Perhaps I wanted to use the shot to illustrate an article about trash at public parks.

In any case, it accurately recorded reality. What would be a basis for criticizing it?

- Leigh

People often excel at finding fault with something
It makes them feel important.

Kent in SD

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Its easy to find fault. It is harder to praise someone.

[Jim Jones]

Let's take a very specific example...

I took a photo of one of the lock houses on the C&O Canal just north-west of Washington, DC.
It wasn't fine art, but it was a nice photo with fall leaves on the ground and good lighting.

It was criticized because there was a Coke can visible in the picture. True, there was a Coke can.

Why was that a basis for criticism? I did not put the can there, nor did I remove it.
Perhaps I wanted to use the shot to illustrate an article about trash at public parks.

In any case, it accurately recorded reality. What would be a basis for criticizing it?

- Leigh

You chose to record reality. Photography also has the ability to idealize a subject. This is the norm in some areas of photography. Perhaps you encountered a judge who rigidly follows that school.

[Leigh]

You chose to record reality. Photography also has the ability to idealize a subject. This is the norm in some areas of photography. Perhaps you encountered a judge who rigidly follows that school.Hi Jim,

Of course, photography can be artistic, even fine art.
I have no problem with that.

But when it records reality, it should not be down-graded for doing so.
That simply reflects an obvious prejudice on the part of the judge.

If a contest is restricted to artistic shots, that should be stated.
It was not in this case, with the field open to all.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

I really like it when they serve complimentary cocktails at openings.
As to judging, somebody has to win and somebody has to not quite get there.
When I enter a competition and don't get a ribbon, most of the time it's because I don't deserve a ribbon.
The rest of the time the ribbon goes to someone else who didn't deserve a ribbon.

As long as the photography is interesting, the company is good, and the drinks are complimentary, it doesn't really matter to me.

[Corran]

That simply reflects an obvious prejudice on the part of the judge.

A contest like that has to have a winner. A judge's (difficult) task is to pick out the best images from presumably a large group of images. A small issue like an errant Coke can is a perfectly reasonable reason to push your image to the "not winner" pile. And of course we must consider that in this day and age, digital imaging and Photoshop means that a small issue like that is fixed with literally one button push.

Secondly, unless the contest was explicitly a photojournalism-based one where messing with the image contents would be dubious from an ethical standpoint, it is absolutely on the photographer to show only what is necessary in the image and not have any errant pieces of detritus in the image, if that is not the intent. And if your intent was in fact to show garbage and such at a natural area or landmark but only showed a random Coke can in a small part of the image, you would've probably failed to make a meaningful photo as well.

Painting judges with a broad-brush as all idiots because you didn't win seems like a bit of self-aggrandizement. Perhaps consider that specific image and the flaw without personal attachment, as if it was someone else's image you were viewing. Do you find that it adds to the photo? Does it mean anything or make a statement itself? Could it have been fixed with 10 seconds of effort to make a stronger image?

I fail to see how any of that has anything to do with "art" vs. "not art" as well.

[Alan Klein]

Hi Jim,

Of course, photography can be artistic, even fine art.
I have no problem with that.

But when it records reality, it should not be down-graded for doing so.
That simply reflects an obvious prejudice on the part of the judge.

If a contest is restricted to artistic shots, that should be stated.
It was not in this case, with the field open to all.

- Leigh

Maybe you could have title the photo "Trash in, trash out" so the judge would know it's an editorial shot rather than an aesthetic shot they usually look at. If you were trying to present it as beauty rather than documentary, it would be better if the can wasn't there. It depends what you were trying to say.

Here's one I did because I liked the matching colors.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/5721232348/in/album-72157626597775701/

[Leigh]

digital imaging and Photoshop means that a small issue like that is fixed with literally one button push.I do photography, NOT digital imaging.

- Leigh

[Corran]

Sure okay. Nevertheless, the point remains. You left what was seen as a flaw in the image, that could've been rectified either at the time of exposure or later via whatever means can get the job done. Simple as that.

[Leigh]

Sure okay. Nevertheless, the point remains. You left what was seen as a flaw in the image, that could've been rectified either at the time of exposure or later via whatever means can get the job done. Simple as that.I got the job done, which was recording reality.

If I wanted to editorialize, I'd be a painter.

- Leigh

[Corran]

The very act of pointing a camera is in and of itself editing "reality." But this is a different discussion for a different thread. The point I am trying to make to you, is that someone had to win, and everyone else had to not win. If your image could have been stronger without the Coke can, as per the judge's opinion, that is a completely legitimate critique and you should take it as such, rather than calling the judges, quote, "idiots." I can not quite elucidate the sheer ridiculousness of such a statement in this situation.

[Leigh]

I can not quite elucidate the sheer ridiculousness of such a statement in this situation.Perhaps I should provide a link to a dictionary.

My point to you is that the judge was using criteria (his personal opinion) that was not appropriate to the competition based on the stated rules and content description. It has nothing to do with whether I won.

- Leigh

[Corran]

the judge was using criteria (his personal opinion)

Shocking!

[Paul Ron]

some people need that club motivation.

for me?... nope! my permenent school record downtown says... DOESNT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS! in big red caps on the file cover.

[Leigh]

Shocking!
You conveniently deleted a very appropriate part of my prior statement:

"My point to you is that the judge was using criteria (his personal opinion) that was not appropriate to the competition based on the stated rules and content description."

Amazing how convenient the delete button can be.

- Leigh

[Corran]

No, I highlighted what was important. I don't know why you are assuming "reality" has any more value to the photograph in question. I feel that you have shown a basic misunderstanding about what photography is, elevating only what is "real" over what is "not real." But this is neither here nor there, and I think it's clear that this thread isn't about this or your personal quibble with the judge in question.

What is important is that no one should go into any club, competition, etc. with the mindset that "all judges are idiots." That kind of toxic opinion is unhelpful to the extreme to ALL involved.

Moving on...

[pgk]

Whilst photographic club photography judging undoubtedly does have its failings and you may agree or disagree with the results, ALL photographs are 'judged' whether by the photographer or the viewer. And without judgement ALL photographs would be equal which obviously they are not. And there would never be improvement either.

Some people thrive in photographic clubs - I'm not one of them I have to say. But judges are not idiots, most are volunteers and many even attend workshops and courses on how to critique images (again this is far from my ideas of how things should be). If someone enjoys the club scene, is prepared to understand it and the requirements of club competition photographs then I have no problem with that, even though I personally think that such photography is rarely 'creative' in the true sense because as it has to conform to club and judges requirements, it is, for the most part, curtailed from moving forwards.

Perhaps this is the real problem. Not appreciating how club competition photographs have to conform to club competition requirements is not a fault of 'idiot' judges.

[goamules]

Next we'll be expected to edit out introduced species in landscape photos, I suppose. And touch up those unsightly fat people in beach scenes?

Nah, I'm with Leigh, you take the photo for the composition. The critic hunts for something to find fault with. You can't win that war. So just take pictures you like and ignore the random coke cans.

[Vaughn]

One of the most disappointing excuses I use to hear from students for not applying adaquate thought to an image is, "But it is what was there!"

[DonJ]

Next we'll be expected to edit out introduced species in landscape photos, I suppose. And touch up those unsightly fat people in beach scenes?

Nah, I'm with Leigh, you take the photo for the composition. The critic hunts for something to find fault with. You can't win that war. So just take pictures you like and ignore the random coke cans.

I think we all believe you should take the photo you like, and do it your way. But getting bent out of shape because someone else doesn't think it's a prize-winner is hard to understand.

[Leigh]

One of the most disappointing excuses I use to hear from students for not applying adaquate thought to an image is, "But it is what was there!"Disappointing ? ? ?

If doing many types of photography, like forensics or journalism, you're absolutely PROHIBITED from changing the image, either by changing elements in the original scene or by photo editing afterwards.

Photography is done for many different reasons, with many different goals.
Trying to apply one set of rules to all photos is idiotic.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

But getting bent out of shape because someone else doesn't think it's a prize-winner is hard to understand.
I never claimed the lock house photo was a prize winner. Certainly not.
It was a decent photo, but nothing exceptional.

I criticized the decision to downgrade it based on a totally irrelevant minor aspect of the photo.

- Leigh

[pgk]

Photography is done for many different reasons, with many different goals.

And for some the reason is to enter images in club competitions. Is that a problem?

[Leigh]

And for some the reason is to enter images in club competitions. Is that a problem?
It's not a problem as long as the judging criteria are clearly explained.
In the example I provided, they were not.

- Leigh

[DonJ]

I never claimed the lock house photo was a prize winner. Certainly not.
It was a decent photo, but nothing exceptional.

I criticized the decision to downgrade it based on a totally irrelevant minor aspect of the photo.

- Leigh

If you rid yourself of the notion that you get to decide what others believe is relevant, you will live longer, sleep better, and enjoy photography more.

I would have picked up the can and then taken the photo. By not doing so, you allow anyone looking at the photo to decide if it's a relevant part of your presentation.

[Corran]

One of the most disappointing excuses I use to hear from students for not applying adaquate thought to an image is, "But it is what was there!"

Yep.

[faberryman]

I criticized the decision to downgrade it based on a totally irrelevant minor aspect of the photo.
I take it you have never had a portfolio review. After you get over the sense of humiliation, you can actually learn something from it. If you are willing.

Let's assume there are two identical photographs, except one has a coke can and one doesn't. Which one to choose?

[Leigh]

If you rid yourself of the notion that you get to decide what others believe is relevant, you will live longer, sleep better, and enjoy photography more.
If I moderated my photos based on what others wanted to see...

I'd let them take the photos.

- Leigh

[DonJ]

If I moderated my photos based on what others wanted to see...

I'd let them take the photos.

- Leigh

No one suggested that. That would make the whole process pointless. But you also can't expect judges to moderate their opinions based on what you want them to see.

[Mark Sawyer]

Paraphrasing the old quote about academic politics, I suspect the reason judging and critiques in local photo clubs are so vicious (and taken so seriously) is because the stakes are so small...

[John Kasaian]

I wouldn't want to be a judge.
Especially if they don't serve the drinks first.

[pgk]

It's not a problem as long as the judging criteria are clearly explained.

And IME they rarely are. Its one of the vagaries of photographic clubs - that often any image can 'compete' against any other regardless of genre - which obviously makes judging tricky. On the other hand (in my extremely limited experience of judging - twice in about 25 years), there are obvious errors, mostly technical, which differentiate images in terms of execution.

[Cameron Cornell]

This Coke can that's getting so much attention is reminding me of the Coke bottle in "The Gods Must Be Crazy."

Cameron Cornell
Washington State
www.analogportraiture.com

[DrTang]

If I moderated my photos based on what others wanted to see...

I'd let them take the photos.

- Leigh

or take photos of their photos and enter that next contest - hahahahahahaha


best option is not to enter at all...I mean..even if you 'win'.. what do you get? a ribbon??? bragging rights that a small click of grumps liked your photo?

hahahah - so what.. let the people who like that sort of thing and prize the prize.. enter

infact..unless one can occasionally score good deals on equipment - probably from the widows - or the drinks are free.. I can see no reason to even join

[Mark Sawyer]

...bragging rights that a small click of grumps liked your photo?

A murder of crows, a congress of baboons...

Henceforth, a clique of grumpy photographers shall be a "click"...

[Tin Can]

A murder of crows, a congress of baboons...

Henceforth, a clique of grumpy photographers shall be a "click"...

Good one!

[h2oman]

This forum is essentially a photo club. I don't say that to be negative, but if you think about it I think you'll admit it is true.

Almost any collection of humans has its problems and, often, value - the beauty of online participation is that one can easily tailor their participation to take in the good and ignore the bad.

[John Kasaian]

Contrary to my interest in free drinks, I think photography clubs can be excellent resources.
My work keeps me from joining the local club (meeting times, gosh darn it!) But it is an excellent club.
FWIW, I've learned a great deal from retired local pro photographers who were instrumental in our local club.

While winning a competition helps establishing a reputation, and camera clubs give one that opportunity the opportunity isn't a priority with me.
Perhaps because my photos are just not ready for it.

[Drew Wiley]

I've never belonged to any kind of club. Where I came from, people were more likely to still carry clubs. At least they had learned how to make fire and cook their meat. But my older brother moved to Santa Barbara and joined a few camera clubs; and these included a few then-famous calendar-type photographers. Back home he took a color shot up on the Pass around 10,000 feet, and submitted it to a juried show in LA. They threw his print out and accused him of tinting the sky (it was a C-print and not dye transfer, and decades prior to PS, so not exactly something that could be doctored in this manner). Apparently those LA types had never seen a blue sky!

[drewf64]

This forum is essentially a photo club. I don't say that to be negative, but if you think about it I think you'll admit it is true.

Almost any collection of humans has its problems and, often, value - the beauty of online participation is that one can easily tailor their participation to take in the good and ignore the bad.

h2oman:
My thoughts exactly!
And one of the reasons that this Forum is currently my favorite "club".
Drew

[drewf64]

Contrary to my interest in free drinks, I think photography clubs can be excellent resources.
My work keeps me from joining the local club (meeting times, gosh darn it!) But it is an excellent club.
FWIW, I've learned a great deal from retired local pro photographers who were instrumental in our local club.

While winning a competition helps establishing a reputation, and camera clubs give one that opportunity the opportunity isn't a priority with me.
Perhaps because photos are just not ready for it.

John Kasaian:
I totally agree!
While I am one of the few attendees who shoot film one of the local clubs in my area features 2 or 3 very talented film shooting guest speakers each year!
Face to face discussions with accomplished photographers showing EXCELLENT analogue prints is a highly valued experience for me.
I can pick and choose which meetings to attend and I am not interested in the competitions.
Beverages = BYO !!
Drew

[Mark Sawyer]

This forum is essentially a photo club. I don't say that to be negative, but if you think about it I think you'll admit it is true.

Are there free drinks somewhere here? Well, we do have a Lounge...

[faberryman]

Usually free drinks means dues, so they are not really free. And it's rarely the good stuff. A generally losing proposition all around.

[cowanw]

You can always drink the Cool Aid at Photo Clubs.

[Bernice Loui]

Sticker says Cool Aid, what might the actual content be. Where did the Cool Aid come from, why was Cool Aid offered....

-Choices.


Bernice




You can always drink the Cool Aid at Photo Clubs.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Bright side - photo clubs are a magnet for people of which we might not wish to associate. Keeps life simple.

[Tin Can]

Kool Aid

http://www.koolaid.com/

Best Cold...

[Tedium]

I have to disagree. It all depends on what you are expecting . I have rejoined a club after being out of a bad experience with a small club many years ago but I have to say I'm so glad I have joined.
There is a small group of very talented and experienced film shooters and we have a fully functional darkroom.
Over the past year the knowledge I have gained from some of the old timers is priceless and not to count on the gear that comes in from people wanting to get rid of darkroom stuff.
I am not one who is interested in the club comps and judging side , I have become very comfortable with the fact that most of my work will not be liked or fit in the mold and if anything that has driven me further with my work.
I also feel the clubs are a front line for continuing the art of Film and sharing with others who want to learn.

[John Kasaian]

Sticker says Cool Aid, what might the actual content be. Where did the Cool Aid come from, why was Cool Aid offered....

-Choices.


Bernice

Jim Jones served Kool Aid to his cult followers in Guyana.
Mental note: avoid exhibition openings where Kool Aid is served for refreshments.

[Drew Wiley]

They drank it at gunpoint. No choice. The Guyana survivors meet once a month just two houses away from me. I know some of them pretty well. Only sixteen got away, plus the two or three shooting those who attempted to escape, who are still imprisoned. Jim Jones was a psycho who did a lot of horrible things besides mass murder, which I won't elaborate on here.
A real monster.