80" Durst Lambda printing

[AnselAvedon]

Printing analog is really difficult. I have the space enlarger paper and chemicals however I am worries that I wont be able to make very many prints with my paper. What studios are creating C-Prints over 30". There are a good deal of places that have the 30" printer but my paper is 58"

[AnselAvedon]

I know the print space and lux lab both have a 50" and yes thats pretty large but still looking for other options

[Pere Casals]

I know the print space and lux lab both have a 50" and yes thats pretty large but still looking for other options

Ilford Lab Direct prints 50" with a lightjet, https://www.harmanlab.com/page/61/Black-and-White-Prints-From-Digital.htm

but with RC paper, no FB choice

[AnselAvedon]

Finished my research the largest size is 50"

can we delete this thread?

[koraks]

Or just leave it here so others who may have the same question in the future can refer to the information that was shared. Seriously, one of the most useful resources concerning photography I find to be old forum posts of people who ran into the same issues I did!

[bob carnie]

Finished my research the largest size is 50"

can we delete this thread?

No - there is a 72 inch version but only a couple , try Metro in UK

[Pere Casals]

No - there is a 72 inch version but only a couple , try Metro in UK

The widest Ilford photopaper rolls today are 56" wide, in sheets largest is 40", IIRC , this may limit the practical size if no other choices are available... but 56"x80" would be possible, of course...

[bob carnie]

The widest Ilford photopaper rolls today are 56" wide, in sheets largest is 40", IIRC , this may limit the practical size if no other choices are available... but 56"x80" would be possible, of course...

these machines are made for colour paper, think Gursky

[interneg]

I think the Ilford machine's capacity is 60" - can't remember if this is for coating or finished product. 72" is the biggest Kodak roll, Bayeaux & the Artful Dodgers in London will optically print on it up to 72x100-ish.

[koraks]

these machines are made for colour paper, think Gursky
Not on Ilford paper though.

[bob carnie]

Not on Ilford paper though.

the OP was asking about Cprints me thinks

[Drew Wiley]

Enormous sizes can be done sectionally, just like hanging wallpaper ... well, er, really tricky and expensive wallpaper. But up to a given roll width, a huge roller transport processor is not needed. Big custom drums can be fabricated using basic shop skills, provided he wishes to reconsider the do-it-yourself route. Doing big b&w fiber-based prints in a drum is more problematic because the paper saturates through and goes floppy inside the drum; but there might be some kind of hypothetical tweak that prevents that.

[AnselAvedon]

Metro's website does say they are capable of producing 72" C-Prints. Where are the other 72" Machines I talked with the owner of lightbox studios and he said he thinks there is one in Canada.

I would like to get color images created this way however, If they can create color images with the LED lazer they should also be able to make black and white ones just different paper and chemicals. They understandable might not want to experiment with but... If they own it I think they might want to know everything it is capable of doing

[AnselAvedon]

TWO more options both in NYC

Duggal and Sky Frame both have 72" C-Type printing Duggal advertises that they do both black and white as well as color

[AnselAvedon]

LORD DUGGAL DOES IT ALL! THEY HAVE BEEN ADVANCING PHOTOGRAPHY SINCE THE 60's THEY MADE THE DIP AND DUNK!

[Drew Wiley]

Lightjet does not use LED's. Think more of an inverted RGB laser scanner, projecting the laser beam outwards - a crude analogy, but the best I can think of. The Durst Lambda is similar. Contact printing with a giant RGB platen is the ZBE Chromira method - some of these are still in use, but I think 60" is their widest capacity. All of these devices can be used for chromogenic RA4 papers. There are undoubtedly some 72" printers here on the West Coast too, where
most of the technology was invented to begin with.

[bob carnie]

Duggal had questions for me when they first started BW fiber prints with their Lambda... if you look at wikipedia they say digital silver printing was first implemented by Ilford and Metro Imaging in 2006, which is quite funny as I had the Owners of Ilford in my shop in 2004 and showed them Lambda Murals on AGFA classic. My first printed mural job was in 2002 which is about 4 years ahead of what wiki states, I hope to correct this at sometime.

[bob carnie]

Lightjet does not use LED's. Think more of an inverted RGB laser scanner, projecting the laser beam outwards - a crude analogy, but the best I can think of. The Durst Lambda is similar. Contact printing with a giant RGB platen is the ZBE Chromira method - some of these are still in use, but I think 60" is their widest capacity. All of these devices can be used for chromogenic RA4 papers. There are undoubtedly some 72" printers here on the West Coast too, where
most of the technology was invented to begin with.

Durst Lambda came out in 1996 well ahead of the wonky West Coast devices... the Italians made it correct Drew not some dope smoking hippie from Haight Ashbury

[Drew Wiley]

Bob, you might want to stay on the good side of the fellow that holds some of the patents on the Chromira, cause he owns the real toys for optimizing alt workflow, which you might covet yourself someday. No need to get bitter over that ZBE enlarger incident. I know they ran hot, but at least they didn't look like a beehive hair dryer like old Beseler enlargers did. You should have just sold your enlarger to a hair salon when crispy was still in style. The Lambda was sheer headaches at first (streaking). Not everyone seems to have figured it out yet. And the ancestors of the Italians were already smoking Afghan dope several centuries BC, but probably not wearing tie-died T-shirts yet. They seem to make either the best or worst of everything.

[bob carnie]

ZBE - there was a guy that came up with the designs, apparently he was brilliant but bat shit crazy... The company is one I would never work with, I spent 15k on equipment that was disfunctional within 1 year and absolutely no recourse on parts. I threw out the two enlargers . I know people with Chromira's and they are good machines but frankly not even close to the Lambda and funny enough I can talk with a lambda tech at any time and they are amazing and help me keep this ancient beast running. My friends with the Chromira are pretty much left to their own devices when problems come up and for them they have tech staff much smarter than me , therefore I am really happy Dursts gives such great support.

I am hoping the Durst people come up with a pure pigment flatbed device for printing multiple passes, this is a device I have been hoping to see for a very long time. The resurgence of Alt prints may drive some tech engineers to consider putting their massive brain power to make one.

[bob carnie]

Lightjet does not use LED's. Think more of an inverted RGB laser scanner, projecting the laser beam outwards - a crude analogy, but the best I can think of. The Durst Lambda is similar. Contact printing with a giant RGB platen is the ZBE Chromira method - some of these are still in use, but I think 60" is their widest capacity. All of these devices can be used for chromogenic RA4 papers. There are undoubtedly some 72" printers here on the West Coast too, where
most of the technology was invented to begin with.

Yes you right it is a laser device, the company is no longer. the lasers travel along the paper vs the Lambda where the paper moves down from a turret above. Both machines provide excellent quality. Chromira is LED device and is much smaller in size than the other two.
Any thing that is light sensitive can be used in these devices, the Chromira cannot expose fibre base paper but the Lightjet and Lambda can I suspect due to the higher laser output.
I am looking for contone BW film from the printing industry to put in my machine, once I have some various rolls of product I will have Durst come up to my shop and help balance out the laser powers to match the sensitivity of the films. It is a bit of a dance and I am very hopeful as even though I can use Ortho 25 in my machine to make negs , the film is $1500 for a 20inch x 50ft roll - as a comparison a 20 inch x 100 ft roll of Inkpress for my epson is $220... so $3000 vs $220 to make the same type of neg, it is crazy..
The printing industry contone film is more towards the inkpress price , but I am not personally experienced with it so its a bit of a trial and error, I am hoping I meet someone here or online with pre press negative making experience to pick their brain.

[Drew Wiley]

Chromiras were strong enough to expose Ciba. I could have had one in excellent working condition at about 5% its original price, including the scanner, paper roll cutter, and big RA4 developer; but as you already know, I prefer optical enlargement. Visually, Chromira gave slightly sharper results than the competing options, but also a grittiness or salt n' pepper effect I found visually distracting, but less obnoxious than the streaking so common to other devices in the hands of undertrained operators. What you are planning with film is being successfully done elsewhere, including with a Chromira system. Too bad the old Agfa line of big commercial film is gone, and that the handful of equivalents that remain are so expensive. But you'll land on your feet!

[bob carnie]

Chromiras were strong enough to expose Ciba. I could have had one in excellent working condition at about 5% its original price, including the scanner, paper roll cutter, and big RA4 developer; but as you already know, I prefer optical enlargement. Visually, Chromira gave slightly sharper results than the competing options, but also a grittiness or salt n' pepper effect I found visually distracting, but less obnoxious than the streaking so common to other devices in the hands of undertrained operators. What you are planning with film is being successfully done elsewhere, including with a Chromira system. Too bad the old Agfa line of big commercial film is gone, and that the handful of equivalents that remain are so expensive. But you'll land on your feet!

If you could lead me to others doing contone via my typical devices I would appreciate it.

[Tim V]

Has anyone used Metro UK to make fiber BW prints from either digitized negatives or converted BW digital files? What's the quality like? I'm more and more disliking inkjet for BW, even using the new Epson SC P-10000 and high-end papers like Canson Platine. I'm considering sending off a test print to see what they look like, but even for that with shipping to New Zealand I'd want to be sure it's a method I'd want to push forward with for a select lot of work that I can't print optically, or to get digital images to better match the look of my optical fiber prints.

[interneg]

Has anyone used Metro UK to make fiber BW prints from either digitized negatives or converted BW digital files? What's the quality like? I'm more and more disliking inkjet for BW, even using the new Epson SC P-10000 and high-end papers like Canson Platine. I'm considering sending off a test print to see what they look like, but even for that with shipping to New Zealand I'd want to be sure it's a method I'd want to push forward with for a select lot of work that I can't print optically, or to get digital images to better match the look of my optical fiber prints.

It is very good (especially if extensive retouching is necessary on a negative & a silver gelatin print is desired as the output) - and unless you can make giant optical enlargements with the right sort of kit, you'll struggle to better it.

Also, whatever you do, don't send a cheap flatbed scan - it needs the best possible input you can afford.

Possibly also worth contacting Bob Carnie too - he runs the same paper on a 30" Lambda - what sort of size are you aiming at ending up with?

[bob carnie]

We did extensive tests to evaluate bayrta ink print, silver enlarged MG4 and Lambda Galerie G 4 prints. We made 30 x 40 murals from the same negative, we made the silver print enlarged print and then matched the inkjet and digital silver to the enlarger print.

I showed these prints to over 300 photographers, over a period of 6 months and the question who could tell the inkjet print, or who could tell which print was which.. To my amazement the majority of photographers could not precisely tell which print was which. Four different cities and events where I was doing lectures.


It was an eyeopening experiment for me.

[Tim V]

That's an interesting conclusion, Bob, especially considering you were showing the results to photographers who are interested in such things, not just anyone who wants to offer an opinion.

Do you mind if I PM you and ask about your digital printing onto silver fibre paper? I wouldn't mind running a few tests.


To my amazement the majority of photographers could not precisely tell which print was which. Four different cities and events where I was doing lectures.


It was an eyeopening experiment for me.

[interneg]

We did extensive tests to evaluate bayrta ink print, silver enlarged MG4 and Lambda Galerie G 4 prints. We made 30 x 40 murals from the same negative, we made the silver print enlarged print and then matched the inkjet and digital silver to the enlarger print.

I showed these prints to over 300 photographers, over a period of 6 months and the question who could tell the inkjet print, or who could tell which print was which.. To my amazement the majority of photographers could not precisely tell which print was which. Four different cities and events where I was doing lectures.


It was an eyeopening experiment for me.

Interesting - earlier this year I printed a show from 35mm negs where the digital fibre was hung between two optical prints, all at the same size, (42" across) all from the same film & all tonally matched - I took the opportunity to do some blind tests too & bizarrely the responses I got were to the effect that the digital fibre had to be the optical print & the optical prints were the digital! At 2m you'd have a hard time telling them apart, at 1.2-1.5m you can tell that there are differences, & at 15cm you can tell which one is definitely the digital print & which were enlarger prints. It certainly made me a believer in the Rodagon-G! I think the continuity in the sharp resolution of grain that an optimised lens offers does have benefits especially when even the best scanners are starting to run out of resolution. That being said, digital fibre has huge benefits in terms of speed & efficiency of throughput compared to traditional mural printing.

The biggest thing I took away from it is that a lot more people view prints quite a bit closer than traditional opinions of viewing distances would suggest, but not extremely closely, thus what a big print looks like at even 1-1.2m does matter quite a lot. And that's where a lot of the current 40-50mp 24x36 sensors really start to come apart quite badly in big prints.

[bob carnie]

That's an interesting conclusion, Bob, especially considering you were showing the results to photographers who are interested in such things, not just anyone who wants to offer an opinion.

Do you mind if I PM you and ask about your digital printing onto silver fibre paper? I wouldn't mind running a few tests.

No by all means, I run in spurts so its not a day to day service. you can see my propaganda www.alternativephotoservices.com

[AnselAvedon]

OHHHH MY YEEEESSSSS This post has bloomed like nothing I've ever gotten to read!!!!!!! Alright!
MY BRAINS GOT QUESTIONS NOW! OOO THESE MEN HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE! MASSIVE RESPECT TO BOB AND DREW!

BOB YOUR PRINTING TO FILM!!!!!!! EEEEEEE!! THATS WHATS UP!


So lemme get into a new question whats up with this Aztec 16 bit drum scanner anyone test with that? I want know what those scans can look like when you use one of these machines to print all of these 32,000 colors. I have some slides that have about every tone of color possible and want see the potential.

How does Duratrans work? is that printed light sensitive? or is it like an inkjet on transparency?

Whats going on with Duggal saying they are printing at 6100 PPI. - I know I could prob just call about the last one but since your teaching them lemme just talk with the #1 main mind