Quick PMK handling question

[Tim V]

Hi guys,

I recently had an extremely experienced friend process a batch of a 8x10 FP4+ for me in trays, 4 at a time. We used PMK developer, which he has never experimented with before as he long ago settled on T-Max with RS developer. We have noticed a good number of negatives have finger smudge marks on them from where he gently pressed the film down with the pads of his fingers to submerge them during development. They are obviously most evident in areas of flat tone, and there is generally only one per negative indicating it's happening either during the presoak or on initial introduction to the PMK developer. There was a 3 min pre-soak of all film. He's never experienced this in many thousands of sheets processed in RS developer, and I'm wondering if the staining developers are far more fussy in this regard?

Thanks,

Tim

[koraks]

Yes, possibly. The most obvious cause I can think of is grease from his fingers sticking to the film, reducing the rate if development in the early stages of development.
BTW, bare hands in pmk doesn't sound like a very good idea! Better use nitrile gloves.

[Drew Wiley]

Pyro without gloves ??????????????????? %^#@****!!!!!!

[bob carnie]

Pyro without gloves ??????????????????? %^#@****!!!!!!

Yes I was thinking the same, been a long time since I looked at the specs but I am pretty sure this is not a good thing.

[Jim Noel]

Hi guys,

I recently had an extremely experienced friend process a batch of a 8x10 FP4+ for me in trays, 4 at a time. We used PMK developer, which he has never experimented with before as he long ago settled on T-Max with RS developer. We have noticed a good number of negatives have finger smudge marks on them from where he gently pressed the film down with the pads of his fingers to submerge them during development. They are obviously most evident in areas of flat tone, and there is generally only one per negative indicating it's happening either during the presoak or on initial introduction to the PMK developer. There was a 3 min pre-soak of all film. He's never experienced this in many thousands of sheets processed in RS developer, and I'm wondering if the staining developers are far more fussy in this regard?

Thanks,

Tim

Either the friend is not so"extremely experienced", or he has had lots of poor experience in developing film in trays.

[John Layton]

Was it established that no gloves were used?

I use gloves myself for staining developers...but go gloveless to unload holders and then put gloves on prior to presoaking/processing.

Years ago I'd also had some problems with finger-smudges with staining developers (ABC and PMK pyro) - and solved this by adding a few drops of photo-flo to my pre-soak. This is not only good for the crucial interval of the first few seconds of film wetting...but also in that a bit of this photo flo gets carried over into the developer and helps to mitigate deleterious effects from handling during the crucial first seconds of immersion into the developer...which tends to become less of a problem as the film begins to harden (as films do in such developers).

[Doremus Scudder]

I've been developing in PMK for many years now (using nitrile gloves, of course). The only time I've got fingermarks on negatives is when the gloves were contaminated with fixer. Wash your gloved hands well and dry them extra well before unloading the holders, handling the film and developing and the troubles should disappear.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

Not all gloves are appropriate. I always use non-powdered disposable nitrile gloves. But I've encountered import vinyl gloves with plasticizers falsely labeled as rubber gloves, that can both give you a rash due to those plasticizers and potentially transfer such chemicals onto the film itself. And just like developer, I never get my bare fingers in fixer either, unhealthy or not. Fixer easily finds its way onto doorknobs, sink rims, light switches etc, and it's a lot easier to rinse off nitrile gloves than skin.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Wash hands first, then clean with 91% isopropyl alcohol. Then use the gloves. I would do the washing and alcohol when unloading the film and loading the film as well and when prepping to put into chemicals.

[John Layton]

...yes, very clean hands are a must! While I don't go as far as Steven (fingers must look like raisins!) I do wash hands very thoroughly just prior to turning out the darkroom lights, using the back of my hand to operate the light switch.

[Drew Wiley]

I even carry those little individual disposable alcohol wipes in my film changing tent kit for travel. But it's important to select the ones containing just alcohol, with no scent or other ingredients.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

yes, not the perfumed stuff. My fingers are okay as don't do voluminous amounts of film at a time and still use a daylight tank.

[Tim V]

Hi all,

Apologies for the late reply. Thanks to all who have offered help!

Yes, surgical nitrate gloves were worn. It is possible that they had a bit of 'dust' on them from the box, but it's hard to tell. I think we've narrowed it down to happening within the pre-soak and / or on the initial submersion into the developer. Curiously, there is only one smudge on a select few negatives, each in almost the same place. Anyway, my friend did another run of four sheets, and I've processed four more sheets individually, an we've seen no more defects after taking extra precautions. Chalk this one up to inexperience with this kind of developer.

In terms of my friends experience, it's important to understand that I might very well be one of only two or three people in the country entertaining the idea of using such chemistry combinations. My friend is without a doubt one of the country's most accomplished contemporary artists and photographers, shooing exclusively 8x10", but he has never used pyro staining developers before. It just isn't sold here and I might be one of only a few people importing it as some kind of masochistic experiment. In any event, he has never seen this happen before in many thousands of sheets he's processed for himself–uneven development from time to time, yes, but not smudges. Anyway, I think I've got the cause identified and have come to the conclusion that pyro is just that extra bit fussy with processing technique where others like RS with T-Max etc are perhaps more forgiving.

YMMV!

Thanks again,

Tim

[bob carnie]

Tim - you may be experiencing the tannin effect of pyro which is well noted in Mr Hutchings book.

[Steve Sherman]

IMHO, baring in mind over 20 years of Pyro processing with ABC, PMK and Cat the issues you describe are almost assuredily a result of finger pressure (without gloves) as the film is first inserted into the presoak when the film is slightly moist and then pushed down. Those impressions with non pyro developers tend to even out over the course of development time. The fact that Pyro base developers harden or "tan" the film's emulsion very early in the processing stage the film's emulsion surface does not have a chance to fully return to an even and uniform state. Effectively the Pyro hardens the emulsion with some trace of those depressions still impacting the surface of the film, as indicated these will showup in even toned areas of mid to higher density. The easy fix is always wear nitrile gloves and never push the film down, rather slide the film in as you would inserting a print into the developer. And of course always presoak, ridiculous that presoaking is as debated as much as it is.

[Tim V]

Thanks Steve for your thoughts.

It might be the case that they are 'ungloved' fingerprints. I'm not sure at what stage he put the gloves on. In any event, I've resorted to processing one at a time myself until I get the hang on things and all has been perfect in a dozen or so sheets. It's interesting to read about Pyro developers extra sensitivity to this stuff, which also explains why my friend has never seen it before. I've bought another box of nitrate gloves and it's all go in the darkroom now...