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Matted
12-Oct-2018, 20:13
I currently own a Sironar-N 210 in Copal 1 shutter and am looking at purchasing a Sironar-S 210 in Copal Press 1 shutter to replace it (for the extra coverage). I have never used a Copal Press shutter before and like the idea of the “self cocking” release, however I will miss having shutter speeds faster than 1/125 of a second.

I may end up loving the Press shutter but in the event that I don’t.... can I just unscrew the cells from each shutter and swap them? I did some searching but could only find info on replacing a shutter of the same type in the same lens, or adding a shutter to a lens that does not have one. It is unclear if this will a) work perfectly b) not work at all and need some work at s.k. Grimes, or c) work but need new aperture scales.

Any input anyone has would be appreciated. Thanks!

Bob Salomon
12-Oct-2018, 20:42
Do you have Sironar N or Apo Sironar N? Both in 210 fit a 1 shutter.

Whatever you do you do not want a Copal Press, if you want a press shutter then you only want a Prontor Press 01 shutter. Otherwise you want a Copal 1 with the proper scales!

The Prontor Press 01 has speeds to 250. The Prontor Press goes to 125.

Matted
12-Oct-2018, 21:56
Thanks for the reply Bob! I have a “plain” Sironar-N (Marked as MC and with “Sinar” engraved on the lens, although it is NOT branded as Sinaron S. Serial number puts it in the early 80s.

Can you elaborate on why I don’t want the Copal Press under any circumstances? Is it the limited shutter speed or something else that I am overlooking? If all of this is as simple as swapping shutters, my intention would be to sell the Sironar-N with press shutter. If that will kill the value (or require further calibration) then it would be a bad idea I am thinking.

As I type this I am realizing that I should just wait for a 210 S in Copal 1 at the right price.

Bob Salomon
12-Oct-2018, 22:11
2
Thanks for the reply Bob! I have a “plain” Sironar-N (Marked as MC and with “Sinar” engraved on the lens, although it is NOT branded as Sinaron S. Serial number puts it in the early 80s.

Can you elaborate on why I don’t want the Copal Press under any circumstances? Is it the limited shutter speed or something else that I am overlooking? If all of this is as simple as swapping shutters, my intention would be to sell the Sironar-N with press shutter. If that will kill the value (or require further calibration) then it would be a bad idea I am thinking.

As I type this I am realizing that I should just wait for a 210 S in Copal 1 at the right price.

Copal Press has lots of vibration compared to other mechanical shutter and is tricky with a cable release.
Prontor Pro has greater range of speeds and the least vibration of any mechanical shutter.it can also add accessories to control all shutter functions from behind the camera!

Oslolens
12-Oct-2018, 22:54
I will miss having shutter speeds faster than 1/125 of a second.

Any input anyone has would be appreciated. Thanks!

I swapped a 240 N in Copal #3 with a 240 S (Sinaron SE DB) for use on a 8x10" and sold the N. Are you sure you need the extra coverage? Is there any guarantee on the S? Some of my Copal #1 goes to 1/400 second, but does not run faster than 1/180 - checked via "Shutter times"app- and a light sensitive resistor-plug, have you tested the shutter so you know the times?

Sent fra min D6503 via Tapatalk

Matted
13-Oct-2018, 03:40
2

Copal Press has lots of vibration compared to other mechanical shutter and is tricky with a cable release.
Prontor Pro has greater range of speeds and the least vibration of any mechanical shutter.it can also add accessories to control all shutter functions from behind the camera!

Thanks again Bob. The Prontor Pro sounds great. Unfortunately I just missed a Sironar-S 210 in Prontor Pro at Badger Graphic...

Matted
13-Oct-2018, 03:46
I swapped a 240 N in Copal #3 with a 240 S (Sinaron SE DB) for use on a 8x10" and sold the N. Are you sure you need the extra coverage? Is there any guarantee on the S? Some of my Copal #1 goes to 1/400 second, but does not run faster than 1/180 - checked via "Shutter times"app- and a light sensitive resistor-plug, have you tested the shutter so you know the times?

Sent fra min D6503 via Tapatalk


Yes, the extra coverage is for 8x10. Not much room for movements at infinity but any extra coverage will help for my intended useage.

Good point about actually testing the shutter speeds! I have not actually done this yet. I think I am going to pass on the Copal Press lens anyway, but I should actually test the shutters on all my lenses.

Leigh
13-Oct-2018, 08:46
Hi Matted,

Do you really need / want "extra coverage" ?

Assuming both lenses properly cover the film at infinity...
Any "extra coverage" only enables greater movements.

- Leigh

Matted
13-Oct-2018, 11:05
Hi Matted,

Do you really need / want "extra coverage" ?

Assuming both lenses properly cover the film at infinity...
Any "extra coverage" only enables greater movements.

- Leigh

I may be wrong but I don’t think the Sironar-N covers 8x10 at infinity. According to the specs it comes up a few mm short (301mm), and I have found a thread where it was mentioned that it vignettes at infinity. The S just covers at infinity, and will have more room for movements at closer working distances.

A helpful forum member pointed me towards the 210mm Sironar (W) lens that has considerably more coverage. Aside from the obvious size, weight, and cost increase over the Sironar-S, are there any downsides to the 210 W? It will be used for both colour and b&w, medium to high magnification (with 4x5) and for both studio/tabletop and landscape. My plan was to sell the N lens but I suppose I could keep it as a lightweight/travel lens when I want to pack light.

Leigh
13-Oct-2018, 11:21
A helpful forum member pointed me towards the 210mm Sironar (W) lens that has considerably more coverage. Aside from the obvious size, weight, and cost increase over the Sironar-S, are there any downsides to the 210 W?Hi Matted,

I have both the Sironar-S and the Sironar (W).
I didn't mention the W because it was not mentioned earlier in the thread.

There are major differences.
The image circle for the S is 316mm. The ic for the W is 352mm. The diagonal of 8x10 is 325mm.
The weight of the S is 490 grams; for the W it's 950 grams, almost twice.

I think they're both excellent lenses.

- Leigh

Bob Salomon
13-Oct-2018, 11:32
I may be wrong but I don’t think the Sironar-N covers 8x10 at infinity. According to the specs it comes up a few mm short (301mm), and I have found a thread where it was mentioned that it vignettes at infinity. The S just covers at infinity, and will have more room for movements at closer working distances.

A helpful forum member pointed me towards the 210mm Sironar (W) lens that has considerably more coverage. Aside from the obvious size, weight, and cost increase over the Sironar-S, are there any downsides to the 210 W? It will be used for both colour and b&w, medium to high magnification (with 4x5) and for both studio/tabletop and landscape. My plan was to sell the N lens but I suppose I could keep it as a lightweight/travel lens when I want to pack light.

The Apo Sironar S more then slightly covers 810. It is a 75° coverage lens. The W covers 80°.

Other the the added 5° coverage you should find the S a better performer. The S performs so well that the W was replaced by it. It is also much smaller and lighter and uses much smaller filters as well!

Oren Grad
13-Oct-2018, 11:38
I have all three - N, S and W. I use the N mostly as part of a two-lens kit for 5x7 (the other lens that usually comes along is a 150 W). The S is my standard lens for whole plate (yes, it's semi-wide on that format). I haven't used the W that much, and only ever on 8x10.

I've never bothered with the 210 S on 8x10. For general field work with focus at medium to long range, the coverage is just too tight for my taste - the shorter the focal length and correspondingly wider the field of view, the more I want some wiggle room for movement, especially front rise. So if I had a routine need for 210 in 8x10 field work and had to choose between the S and W, it would be the W every time. YMMV.

Specifically re close-up work on 4x5, per Rodenstock, the N is optimized for 1:20, the S and W are optimized for 1:10. But the 210 W coverage is way overkill for 4x5. And you pay a price not just in size and weight but also in MTF for the larger image circle - within its limits the MTF of the 210 S is superior, and the S itself still has far more coverage than needed for 4x5.

So as the saying goes, horses for courses...

Matted
13-Oct-2018, 12:16
Thanks Leigh, Bob, and Oren for the thoughts. It’s great hearing from people that have used and/or own multiples of these lenses. The W would certainly cause a filter/holder/compendium crisis for me so there is likely more than just the initial cost over the S.

Were there any significant changes that would affect performance over the lifetime of the 210 “W” ? I seem to remember reading that the W designation was just added to help people differentiate against the N lenses.

Oren Grad
13-Oct-2018, 12:37
Were there any significant changes that would affect performance over the lifetime of the 210 “W” ?

I'm not aware of any, which of course proves nothing. But I think it's unlikely that you will find anyone who has data from well-controlled tests comparing W's of different production dates. I've never seen that for N's or S's either, and W's are much less common.

Bob Salomon
13-Oct-2018, 13:16
I'm not aware of any, which of course proves nothing. But I think it's unlikely that you will find anyone who has data from well-controlled tests comparing W's of different production dates. I've never seen that for N's or S's either, and W's are much less common.

The Sironar W became the Apo Sironar W when the Apo Sironar S was introduced. The only change was the addition of the colored stripe on the barrel. Optically the W and the Apo W are the same.

The Sironar convertible lens was replaced with the Sironar N, which was not convertible and covered a wider circle. This was replaced with the Sironar MC which added multi coating. This was replaced with the Apo Sironar N. From the Sironar N through the Apo Sironar N all covered 72°. The Sironar W covered 80° and was substantially larger and heavier. And, as noted, the Sironar N versions were corrected for 1:20 and the S and W lenses were corrected for 1:10.

Matted
13-Oct-2018, 19:19
Thanks again to everyone for the thoughts. I pulled the trigger on a 210 Sironar-S (in Copal shutter) so no monkeying around with shutters is necessary. I decided that the filter/compendium incompatibility is too big of an issue right now but if I know me I’ll probabku just end up with a W down the line anyways :)


The Sironar W became the Apo Sironar W when the Apo Sironar S was introduced. The only change was the addition of the colored stripe on the barrel. Optically the W and the Apo W are the same.


The Sironar W was originally just known as “APO Sironar”, wasn’t it? Or do I have my Sironar wires crossed?

Oren Grad
13-Oct-2018, 21:02
The Sironar W was originally just known as “APO Sironar”, wasn’t it? Or do I have my Sironar wires crossed?

To be strictly correct about the nomenclature, there has never been a "Sironar-W" (nor a "Sironar-S" for that matter). But yes, the series with 80 degree coverage, originally labeled "Apo-Sironar", became "Apo-Sironar-W". The N series was originally "Sironar-N", then became "Apo-Sironar-N". The Apo-Sironar-S series has never been sold under any other name; there has never been a plain "Sironar-S".

Bob Salomon
13-Oct-2018, 21:13
Thanks again to everyone for the thoughts. I pulled the trigger on a 210 Sironar-S (in Copal shutter) so no monkeying around with shutters is necessary. I decided that the filter/compendium incompatibility is too big of an issue right now but if I know me I’ll probabku just end up with a W down the line anyways :)


Yes, it was. Apo Sironar and then Apo Sironar W.
The Sironar W was originally just known as “APO Sironar”, wasn’t it? Or do I have my Sironar wires crossed?

Matted
14-Oct-2018, 19:17
Thanks again. I rarely type APO (especially for APO-Sironar-S since there was never any other version of the S) although reading through this I am recognizing its importance.

Leigh
15-Oct-2018, 09:30
I rarely type APO (especially for APO-Sironar-S since there was never any other version of the S) although reading through this I am recognizing its importance.
Using full and correct product names enhances understanding by readers.

- Leigh