Fomatone 532 II Nature experience?

[mihag]

I would appreciate any shared experience on Fomatone 532 II paper. In the past I have been using 542 and 542 II, never 532 II which is the only one currently in production, apart from 131, 132, and 133 (at least it seems so). How does the paper base compare? How does it tone in selenium (542 goes chocolate brown), gold and polysulfide direct toners? Thanks.

[interneg]

532's out of production too at the moment, same issue as 542, unavailability of suitable base. I think Foma bought a quantity of the substrate & gradually used it up. 131/132/133 are all in current production. All the same emulsion, same toner reactions etc. Main thing is that 532 has an only slightly off-white base colour, arguably the whitest base of the Fomatones, & the texture of 542. That's about the sum of the differences. Moersch's carbon toner is very nice on Fomatone too, though my own preference is direct gold until neutral/ a hint of chilliness in the highlights.

[mihag]

Thanks. But the emulsion changed somehow, certainly after the introduction of type II, hence my question re toning.

[mihag]

SNIP though my own preference is direct gold until neutral/ a hint of chilliness in the highlights.

Good to know.

[interneg]

Thanks. But the emulsion changed somehow, certainly after the introduction of type II, hence my question re toning.

I've never used type I, but I have toned both 532 II & 542 II extensively & if they are from the same time period, they should behave nearly identically - there was a formulation change a few years ago that did bad things to the 'lithability' for a while, but that was solved fairly quickly, though I can't remember if that filtered through to the last batches of 542 II.

[adelorenzo]

My experience with toning lith prints made on recent batches of Foma 131/132/532:


selenium goes from purple-brown --> brown --> reddish brown
any toning tends to remove highlight detail, at least for lith prints, so I always try to print a bit dark
it will tone in sulfide without prior bleaching
I can't find any difference between Moersch Carbon Toner and straight selenium toner

I just made a bunch of lith prints on 542 this week but I haven't toned them yet to compare.

[interneg]

My experience with toning lith prints made on recent batches of Foma 131/132/532:


selenium goes from purple-brown --> brown --> reddish brown
any toning tends to remove highlight detail, at least for lith prints, so I always try to print a bit dark
it will tone in sulfide without prior bleaching
I can't find any difference between Moersch Carbon Toner and straight selenium toner

I just made a bunch of lith prints on 542 this week but I haven't toned them yet to compare.

Whereas I've experienced the classic effect of gold massively boosting the blacks on lith'd Fomatone to the point of a 'correct' looking print going a bit too dark (recent/ current production Fomatone's) & Moersch Carbon looks significantly different to KRST in my experience, though the dilution used does make a drastic difference here - and bleach then carbon brings the sulfide to the fore very, very fast. Wondering if you don't have some contamination somewhere in your process that's causing the bleaching - have you tested that your prints are adequately fixed? All of Foma's papers need much longer fix times than Ilford's etc - Fomabrom especially so.

[plaubel]

532's out of production too at the moment,,,
Main thing is that 532 has an only slightly off-white base colour, arguably the whitest base of the Fomatones

Comparing my 532 with 131 and Fomabrom I find 131 as white as Fomabrom is.
Both papers have a white Baryta base.
532 is what it is - "nature", pure paper; non baryta, and not completely white.
I bought my batches during last 12 month.

I don't like the reddish/purple tones of Selenium following thiourea, I may have to dilute selenium further, and more to workwith S. followed by T.

My 532 is lithing very very colourful, so I want to try something - advice would be helpful to me - for slowing down the extreme colours.


I don't know about the todays production of Foma, but on their european site they still offer 131 and 532.

[interneg]

Comparing my 532 with 131 and Fomabrom I find 131 as white as Fomabrom is.
Both papers have a white Baryta base.
532 is what it is - "nature", pure paper; non baryta, and not completely white.
I bought my batches during last 12 month.

I don't like the reddish/purple tones of Selenium following thiourea, I may have to dilute selenium further, and more to workwith S. followed by T.

My 532 is lithing very very colourful, so I want to try something - advice would be helpful to me - for slowing down the extreme colours.


I don't know about the todays production of Foma, but on their european site they still offer 131 and 532.

Indeed 532 is still listed - though I recollect reading somewhere from a trustworthy source that 542 II had definitely gone due to unavailability of the base - it may be that they have greater stock of 532 II's base for now - it's never been entirely clear if the base of 542 is manufactured with the dye in it, or if it is added at Foma.

The colour of the base does seem to have a lot to do with washing - I found that 542's base tint would often tone down significantly with a longish wash. The difference between 532 & 131 is very small & I suspect might have more to do with the relative colour of the gelatin supercoat when very little in the way of optical brightening is used. 132 & 532 are very close in base colour - & I think I prefer 132 slightly over 532 for some purposes. All are stunning papers, I really like the flexibility that they offer, especially in terms of printing down shadows.

Lith-wise, if you're using Moersch or similar, usual trick is to bump up B relative to A, or perhaps a reduction in the overexposure might help & not using old brown will help significantly too. I've managed to get lith grain, but not too much colour fairly easily. And a hit of gold toner will kill most of the excessive colour very fast indeed.

[plaubel]

Thanks around the lith-informations.
Yes, I use Moersch Lith; concerning colours i have him to ask for his Lith additives, too.

Foma isn't a great "stock" producer; as far as I know, they produce from month to month in not so big batches.
Approx one or two years ago I have seen them selling out the last batches of 534? the chamois paper , smallsized only, over a longer period. I believe this said something.

""132 & 532 are very close in base colour ""

Regarding the "..2", they should.

At this time I prefer the unique look of the 532 over the 131; I never used 132 but I
should compare with 532.

By the way, I took a while to understand the differences of the numbers.
Maybe it is helpful to explain

131 - Baryta, white, glance
132 " , " , no glance
532 paper , naturell, no glance

[interneg]

Regarding the "..2", they should.

At this time I prefer the unique look of the 532 over the 131; I never used 132 but I
should compare with 532.

By the way, I took a while to understand the differences of the numbers.
Maybe it is helpful to explain

131 - Baryta, white, glance
132 " , " , no glance
532 paper , naturell, no glance

I think you mean the '3' as in x3x - that's the signifier for natural white paper base - the '2' in xx2 is matte finish, though if xx3 signifies lustre, I'd tend to describe 532 as more like 2.5 - it has a degree of surface sheen & slight 'lustre' texture that 132 doesn't. I'm also not totally convinced that there's no baryta layer in 532 etc - it is certainly better behaved than most baryta papers when drying, but it doesn't behave like Ilford's Art 300 - though this may be down to fourdrinier vs mould-made paper behaviour. From my understanding of how Kodak made their paper bases, the thickness & calendaring of the baryta could be varied pretty widely to control how much paper texture showed through.

[andreios]

Good to know that 532 might disappear, one of my favourite papers, so I'd better stock up a little...
Anyway, it is true that foma is somewhat chaotic in their produce - some time ago I bought a bunch of 131Y - baryta based paper, glossy, but with yellow-ish tones.. quite interesting for some purposes.. never seen those papers since..

[plaubel]

I'm also not totally convinced that there's no baryta layer in 532 etc

I can't check the baryta content of paper, so I have to believe the offers:

" 532 - black and white paper in a warm tone on an NB base with variable gradation""

NB stands for non baryta.
Here they describe the 532 as "manufactured on naturally paper base" :
http://www.foma.cz/en/catalogue-fomatone-mg-classic-532-ii-542-ii-detail-1078

I can't find the other text where Foma describes the 532 as "oldstyle and unique".

[plaubel]

Test strips.
One year old 532, untoned but badly digitalized:

183263


532, bleached and toned in a mild soup of thiourea:

183264

[mihag]

Fomatome 542 Chamois Type I, developed in Moersch Separol HE, Toned in Moersch Siena:

183265

Type I had less yellow base tint than Type II.

[plaubel]

the reflexion zone may show the "rough" surface of the MT3 toned 532 nature:

183266

I made a comparison of hard developed 131, and 2 x 532, developed in Tetenal warmtone and in something hard like Dokumol , named Rollei RHC (really good stuff):

183267

Not much to see here, sorry, I don't feel comfortable with digital equipment.
In real, warm and cold differences are slightly visible, but it was hard to find other obvicious differencies.
131 came most contrasty for sure, because of the shining surface.
But not only in this comparism I prefer the matte surface of 532, and this paper seems to bring the wood somehow more organic.

Now I am higly interested in a comparism between 532 and 132.

[mihag]

Now I am higly interested in a comparism between 532 and 132.

132 should be totally matte with no reflection coming back, whereas 532 shows some sheen.

[koraks]

Test strips.
One year old 532, untoned but badly digitalized:

183263


532, bleached and toned in a mild soup of thiourea:

183264

The first image is excessively warm; no paper turns out this warm without toning. That digitization is wildly inaccurate.
In the second, you apparently also toned your fingers along with the prints ;)
Sorry, but such an example is of course of very little use in conveying the characteristics of a paper. The other ones you showed later on are much closer to what I get from these papers.

[plaubel]

I am sorry that my examples are less helpful.
Yes, comparing with the original it looks brownish, and I wonder why.

All I can say is what I said before:

on top>>untoned.

bottom>>toned.

digital >> it's not me.

I try to give a better copy of the untoned one.

[koraks]

Don't mind my words, your examples are appreciated. Especially the comparison of the 131/532 is interesting and looks much like what I get with Fomatone papers.

It's been a while since I used some 532-II but I checked and I still have a few sheets. I remember the base being very warm indeed and the surface more reminiscent of a quasi-matte RC paper than baryta, although the base is absolutely paper and not plastic. To be frank, I never really warmed to this paper. I prefer the regular Fomatone MG, also for lith.

[plaubel]

To be frank, I never really warmed to this paper. I prefer the regular Fomatone MG, also for lith.

I love the idea of 532 being a real paper.
I burned a complete roll now, and to me, this paper wasn't easy to handle in any case.
But I am fascinated from the somehow unique look. Great potential there.

I definitely will buy the next roll, and some sheets of 132 for comparism.
But cutting down the roll is hard, this papers behave like a solid metal spring :-)

[koraks]

I just cut some sheets ra4 paper - I'll happily wrestle an a gry snake under red light as opposed to a roll of ra4 in the dark ;)
Maybe I should give that 532 another chance. Or...maybe I shouldn't. If it's impossible to get, there's no point in falling in love with it!

[plaubel]

I can't see Foma having any problems with delivering Fomatone.
https://fomaobchod.cz/inshop/scripts/search.aspx?q=Fomatone+532
Same for 131:
https://fomaobchod.cz/inshop/scripts/search.aspx?q=Fomatone+131
132:
https://fomaobchod.cz/inshop/scripts/search.aspx?q=Fomatone+131

[koraks]

I haven't tried ordering directly from foma; maco lists all 532 as sold out and it's been like that for a while I think.

[plaubel]

Ok.
But reseller's selling out doesn't mean production stop, so there seems to be a chance to purchase further.
What's about this guy from Norway who is shipping to the US, as far as I know?

[plaubel]

Maco and Impex have been the biggest sellers of Foma over the years, selling woldwide.
Years ago it happened that Czech students had to by Paper in Germany (Maco); Foma has been empty :-)
During this period, it was not able for german people to by directly from foma via Foma's european onlineshop.
Since one year or so, Foma is selling now directly to me, and you don't get Foma's pape.
Maybe some policy in the background, perhaps reorganizing the structures.

[koraks]

Could just be maco's stocking policy for all we know. I generally buy from a supplier here in the Netherlands but I know he gets his stuff from Germany. In the end, it all seems to go through impex.

[plaubel]

Nope.
Maco and Impex have been competitors the very last years.
Regarding their selling policy, this could be in change since some time, but without details, I don't want to speculate, nor is this the right theme for this thread.

[koraks]

I mean the stuff I get here runs from impex. I know maco and impex compete.
The only relevant aspect of this is the question if 532 is still being produced or if Foma has stopped shipping it to distributors and is selling off remaining stock through their own Web shop.

[plaubel]

If this is your question, we may get a fairly answer soon; as a customer of Foma products over years, I have directly asked Foma now.

Best,
Ritchie

[plaubel]

The answer and bad news from

Helena Zatloukalova
Sales Manager
Export Dpt.
FOMA Bohemia Ltd.


""Paper "532" is at the end of production...
Paper "131" is being produced...""

I'm going to ask what will happen with 132.
131 is very nice, but at this time I prefer the missing glance of "2" .

If there is " no reflection coming back" as Mihac said before, some extra coating the final pic may help me.

[koraks]

As a test, you can try a synthetic furniture polish. Undoubtedly thus is frowned upon by the "experts", but in my experience it works very well to seal a print from the environment and to build up a gloss exactly to your preference through repeated coating and buffing.

[plaubel]

Some experiments have to begin next :-)
I'm a bit confused now and have slowly to decide either buying my last roll of 532 or directly continueing with 131 or 132 instead.

[interneg]

I believe that Renaissance Wax may be ok for use on silver gelatin prints, but as ever, test first! Paul Strand was quite notorious for using a litho varnish or similar to adjust the sheen of his prints - which apparently is a bit of a conservation headache!

[Mark Sampson]

I'll ask my wife about Paul Strand's varnish. The recipe is in the back of the older editions of Adams' "The Print".
Despite my love for Strand's work, it never seemed like a good idea to me. Think of all the varnished Old Master paintings that have turned brown over the years. And keeping the dust off while it dries...

[plaubel]

I know about Tetenal Photo sprays which could be another possibilty to bring some shine to the surface.
I will order some 132 sheets to get an idea of the surface.
Maybe there is not much to do.