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Tim V
10-Oct-2018, 13:15
Hi all,

I know this is an often asked question with regards to pyro developers, but after sorting through conflicting or confusing information for a few hours here and over the net, I thought I'd simply ask in my own words and see what the community says...

I'm using PMK developer but have only a small amount of TF4 fix left. It costs a fortune to buy TF4 here as it has to be imported (I'm in New Zealand) but Ilford Hypam is easily obtained for cheap.

I see that Hypam has a PH level of 5.5 (as per Ilford's spec sheets) when mixed 1+4 or 1+9, which makes is slightly acidic.

So my questions is: Can I use Ilford Hypam mixed 1+4 with negatives developed in PMK developer? Photographer's Formulary state it "might" reduce image stain, but from the internet searches I've conducted many people say they see no evidence of this?

I'm using Ilford FP4+ and shooting 8x10" sheets.

Your help is much appreciated!

Thanks,

Tim

Steve Sherman
10-Oct-2018, 17:14
I've used both PMK and currently PyroCat HD with Ilford Hypam for over 10 years and see no drop off in stain. The whole Alkaline fixer and Pyro stain is much more about textbook reasoning and marketing then any real world wisdom. I speak from 1000's of sheets of film processed in Pyro developers using Hypam fixer and a very weak stop bath


Hi all,

I know this is an often asked question with regards to pyro developers, but after sorting through conflicting or confusing information for a few hours here and over the net, I thought I'd simply ask in my own words and see what the community says...

I'm using PMK developer but have only a small amount of TF4 fix left. It costs a fortune to buy TF4 here as it has to be imported (I'm in New Zealand) but Ilford Hypam is easily obtained for cheap.

I see that Hypam has a PH level of 5.5 (as per Ilford's spec sheets) when mixed 1+4 or 1+9, which makes is slightly acidic.

So my questions is: Can I use Ilford Hypam mixed 1+4 with negatives developed in PMK developer? Photographer's Formulary state it "might" reduce image stain, but from the internet searches I've conducted many people say they see no evidence of this?

I'm using Ilford FP4+ and shooting 8x10" sheets.

Your help is much appreciated!

Thanks,

Tim

Andrew O'Neill
10-Oct-2018, 19:46
I've used Pyrocat and Hypam rapid fix since 2002. Comparing negatives fixed in TF4, to Hypam negatives, they look identical as far as stain is concerned. TF4 (and newer TF5) are just too expensive to bring up here.

Andrew O'Neill
10-Oct-2018, 19:49
I should also add that I used PMK, and Rollo Pyro before I switched to Pyrocat-HD, with no effect on stain... I occasionally use Obsidian Aqua, too. So the moral of the story is, it's all good.

angusparker
10-Oct-2018, 20:18
I’ve found my stain from Pyrocat HD did get washed out by RapidFix but TF4 works a charm.... might be the Jobo processing interacting .....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Alan9940
10-Oct-2018, 20:49
I've asked a very similar question, in the past, directly to Sandy King; the father of Pyrocat-HD. According to him, any fixer can be used with no ill affect. PMK could be different in this regard.

Tim V
10-Oct-2018, 22:28
Thanks all!!! I’ll give Hypam a go.

Now to ascertain a agitation scheme for single sheets that I’m happy with...

koraks
10-Oct-2018, 23:09
Pyro stain is ridiculously hard to remove by any means. In my experience, no fixer is up to the job. I just use rapid fix.

Kirk Gittings
11-Oct-2018, 14:30
Pyro stain is ridiculously hard to remove by any means. In my experience, no fixer is up to the job. I just use rapid fix.

Ditto

Tim V
11-Oct-2018, 21:40
Used the Hypam today. Not sure yet, but on quick inspection it seems that the base might not have as much stain with the Hypam as with the TF4. They might dry down to match though, so until then I'll reserve judgement...

Doremus Scudder
12-Oct-2018, 11:41
Used the Hypam today. Not sure yet, but on quick inspection it seems that the base might not have as much stain with the Hypam as with the TF4. They might dry down to match though, so until then I'll reserve judgement...

You don't want the base stain anyway. Overall stain just reduces contrast in the shadows. Proportional staining is best. So compare the highlights on the negatives from different fixers. The one with the least base stain but adequate image stain is the one you want.

FWIW, I've been using Ilford Hypam and Rapid Fixer with my PMK negs for years and years. The stain is just fine.

Best,

Doremus

Kirk Gittings
12-Oct-2018, 12:08
"4. The use of an alkaline fixer is recommended. Kodak and Ilford Rapid-Fix work fine, as does Formulary TF-4. I use the TF-3 formula described in Anchell and Troop’s The Film Developing Cookbook."

According to Sandy King, who IMHO is the leading authority on Pyro Developers.

If you haven't read this, you should. https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

Tim V
12-Oct-2018, 19:20
Dried down hypam and tf4 look exactly the same ����

Vaughn
12-Oct-2018, 19:32
I’ve found my stain from Pyrocat HD did get washed out by RapidFix but TF4 works a charm...

With or without Part B? I leave it out since it is not needed. It is a strong acid (Sulphuric acid), so might be an issue.

Steve Sherman
13-Oct-2018, 08:27
Many times I am utterly amazed at the threads that gain traction and spring to life on any forum, converesely start a thread about image Concept and Content and we get Crickets. Interesting to note my good friend JB Harlin has an article about Pyro Stain where he takes a piece of panchromatic film processed to completion with PyroCat and onto stop and fix. He then mixes a strong batch of Potassium Ferricyanide and bleaches away the entire SILVER IMAGE, guess what remains, the Pyro Stain, very graphic illustration. Stick to a consistent work flow so we all grow as visual artists !!

koraks
13-Oct-2018, 11:03
Yes, I know what the experiment looks like. I've chromium intensified Pyro developed negatives, and also bleached and fixed them. It's fascinating. I've never been able to get the stain to go away though.

Doremus Scudder
14-Oct-2018, 12:08
Strong selenium toner kills pyro stain. I used to selenium intensify negatives till I switched to PMK. Trying to intensify a PMK negative removes enough image stain to effectively cancel out the effect of the selenium intensification. I find I have to use bleach/redevelop with stained negatives to intensify them now.

Doremus

Vaughn
14-Oct-2018, 12:52
Strong selenium toner kills pyro stain. I used to selenium intensify negatives till I switched to PMK. Trying to intensify a PMK negative removes enough image stain to effectively cancel out the effect of the selenium intensification. I find I have to use bleach/redevelop with stained negatives to intensify them now.

Doremus

Do you think that Selenium could be used judiciously to remove a base stain without significantly removing the image-making stain? I have some 8x10s on Bergger 200 that seemed to have quite a bit of base stain.

Doremus Scudder
15-Oct-2018, 10:41
Do you think that Selenium could be used judiciously to remove a base stain without significantly removing the image-making stain? I have some 8x10s on Bergger 200 that seemed to have quite a bit of base stain.

Vaughn,

I'm not really sure exactly what in the selenium toner solution (KRST 1+2 with water) did the stain removing. Nor did I really examine the one or two negatives this happened with to see if the removal was proportional or whatever. Once I realized that the selenium intensification that worked well on negs developed in non-staining developers didn't work on PMK negs, I stopped.

You'd have to do your own experimenting on a scrap negative (maybe cut one of your 8x10s into strips for testing if you have a neg you can sacrifice to the cause).

I sympathize with your problem; I've got a bunch of Bergger 200 negs with a lot of base stain as well. I exposed them at EI 125, so that lifts the shadows up out of the base fog somewhat, but still...

Best,

Doremus

Cor
16-Oct-2018, 08:02
Posted this before~(don't know on LFF though), and it works very good:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I take the liberty of re-posting a post of Burkhardt about removing the
Pyro stain. I tried it, and it works like a charm,
Best,
Cor
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: POP choices
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:27:30 +0200
From: Burkhardt Kiegeland <burkhardt@einsundsein.org>
Reply-To: alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
To: alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
Here is the Kodak S6 formula for removing of stain:
Stock solution A:
Potassium parmanganate 5.2g
Cold water to make 1l
The permanganate has to be dissolved completely to avoid spots on the
neg.
Stock solution B:
Cold water 500ml
Sodium chloride 75g
Sulfuric acid, conc. 16ml
Cold water to make 1l
Caution: Never put the water into the acid, it will boil up!
Stock solution C:
Sodium bisulfite,
1% soilution, this means 1g for 100ml water
1. Harden the film (2-3min) in a hardener solution like 5-10% glyoxal
2. Wash for 5min
3. Bleach in equal amounts of A and B for 3-4min,
the mix is of short shelf life
4. After bleaching put negative in solution C until
all stain is removed
5. Wash thoroughly
6. redevelop under 100W bulb in a non staining developer of low alkali
like D72 dilution 1:2. D76 does no good because of it´s high sulfite
and low alkali which would dissolve the silver image
I did use this formula successful with some overstained Pyro negs a
couple
of times.
Burkhardt Kiegeland
www.lotusviewcamerea.at


Chemistry
Kodak's D72 Formula DEKTOL
• 750 ml Water
• 3 g Metol-Elon
• 45 g Sodium Sulfite Anhydrous
• 12 g Hydroquinone
• 80 g Sodium Carbonate 1-Hydrate
• 2 g Potassium Bromide Anhydrous
• Water to make 1 liter
• Use diluted 1:2 at 68°F for 45 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer).

Drew Wiley
16-Oct-2018, 14:13
I prefer TF4 as a universal one-shot fixer. A tad price, but it's much faster to use on prints, and supplies an alkaline environment for pyro negs. Per base stain, depends on the class of film involved. Films which come closer to the definition of old thick emulsions like HP5 and Bergger 200 accept a lot of base
stain; at the opposite extreme, T-grain films almost none.

Tim V
16-Oct-2018, 23:01
I have no idea what Bergger Pancro 400 is classed as, but I noticed it has quite a high level of base stain / fog. Maybe just my box?

Tim V
16-Oct-2018, 23:02
Ps: how long are people rinsing negs with Hypam and / or TF4?

Doremus Scudder
17-Oct-2018, 11:08
Ps: how long are people rinsing negs with Hypam and / or TF4?

Pyro negs shouldn't be treated with hypo-clearing agent, since it can remove image stain. Therefore, if you want well-washed negatives, you need to wash 20-30 minutes in running water (or the equivalent with fill-and-dump). I always wash for 30 minutes. See the sticky thread over on Photrio about film washing here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-washing-test.69416/

If you don't use a staining developer, you can use a wash aid and significantly reduce wash times.

Best,

Doremus