Swirly Bokeh lens information please

[aaronnate]

This is one of those times when I have no idea how to search something.

I am looking for a list of lenses that have the swirly bokeh so I can, hopefully, find one to cover 8x10. This way I can go on a hunt to find one that does not break the bank.

if someone knew how I could contact Jim Galli, that would work too.

[peter brooks]

I'm no expert but you may be looking for a Petzval that is too small to cover your format - I think the swirly-ness happens in the uncorrected areas outside the sharp core. Not much of a help but a start maybe.

[paulbarden]

You’re talking about Petzval design lenses. There are plenty of inexpensive Magic Lantern lenses to be had, many of which will provide the effect you seek. I’ve acquired several, each costing me between $40 and $80.

[aaronnate]

You’re talking about Petzval design lenses. There are plenty of inexpensive Magic Lantern lenses to be had, many of which will provide the effect you seek. I’ve acquired several, each costing me between $40 and $80.

I just went to the bay typed in petzval and HOLLY COW they are proud of those lenses. All I care about is the quality of the glass, but I did not see any at that price point. Are there other sources besides the bay.

[andrewch59]

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/

That is Jim Galli's site, will show you some amazing images made with all kinds of lenses, check it out.

[paulbarden]

I just went to the bay typed in petzval and HOLLY COW they are proud of those lenses. All I care about is the quality of the glass, but I did not see any at that price point. Are there other sources besides the bay.

If you search specifically for Petzval, all you will find is the $$$$ stuff. Try simply “Magic Lantern lens”

[goamules]

The rule I've learned from owning hundreds of Petzvals the past 10 years is:

Long focal length
Fast aperture
Cheap price

Pick any two above.

But another rule is it's hard to get a Petzval to cover 8x10 unless it's huge. As in about 16". Or is slow, about F9. You won't get swirl at F9. These reasons are why they are expensive. You won't find any magic lantern lens that will cover 8x10 unless it is slow.

[Mark Sawyer]

What Garrett said. Also, keep in mind that, for a given format, a focal length that will cover and swirl at infinity won't swirl in a close-up portrait. One that will swirl in a close-up portrait won't cover at infinity.

[Pere Casals]

I am looking for a list of lenses that have the swirly bokeh

Let me speak about how swirly (circular) bokeh can be provocated with any lens.

183007

It happens when the entrance (or exit) pupil of the lens is small enough to trim the aperture. In that situation defocus discs have "cat's eye shape" because one side (of the cat's eye) is trimmed by the aperture hole and the other side by the entrance pupil.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171015020728/https://www.diyphotography.net/create-famed-petzval-swirly-bokeh-lens-cheap/

... so it may happen when a manufacturer uses front/rear glass not big enough for the max aperture.

A petzval also has a curved "plane" of focus (field of focus should be said) that enhances the tunnel aesthetic effect.

In fact the swirl is an added effect to what's a bokeh nature. Bokeh has many flavours and you can add to each flavour the swirl and/or the curved focus field.



Or is slow, about F9. You won't get swirl at F9.

With an small aperture it's difficult that the entrance pupil can limit the aperture...

It also hapens when we stop the lens, any swirl disapears.

[aaronnate]

What Garrett said. Also, keep in mind that, for a given format, a focal length that will cover and swirl at infinity won't swirl in a close-up portrait. One that will swirl in a close-up portrait won't cover at infinity.


Let me speak about how swirly (circular) bokeh can be provocated with any lens.

183007

It happens when the entrance (or exit) pupil of the lens is small enough to trim the aperture. In that situation defocus discs have "cat's eye shape" because one side (of the cat's eye) is trimmed by the aperture hole and the other side by the entrance pupil.

https://web.archive.org/web/20171015020728/https://www.diyphotography.net/create-famed-petzval-swirly-bokeh-lens-cheap/

... so it may happen when a manufacturer uses front/rear glass not big enough for the max aperture.

A petzval also has a curved "plane" of focus (field of focus should be said) that enhances the tunnel aesthetic effect.

In fact the swirl is an added effect to what's a bokeh nature. Bokeh has many flavours and you can add to each flavour the swirl and/or the curved focus field.




With an small aperture it's difficult that the entrance pupil can limit the aperture...

It also happens when we stop the lens, any swirl disappears.


So according to you two I should be looking to cover 4x5 or 5x7 and will give swirly bokeh at infinity.

Which brings up another question, how do I know if a lens will be circular(thanks for the proper term) at infinity?

Edit:
I just looked up magic lantern lenses and they seem to be projection lenses. Is this correct? If so How do I figure out what will cover 5x7 or 4x5?

[Pere Casals]

So according to you two I should be looking to cover 4x5 or 5x7 and will give swirly bokeh at infinity.

Which brings up another question, how do I know if a lens will be circular(thanks for the proper term) at infinity?

Edit:
I just looked up magic lantern lenses and they seem to be projection lenses. Is this correct? If so How do I figure out what will cover 5x7 or 4x5?

Because of geometry the swirl is in the outer part of the image circle, as you stop the lens the inner circle having no swirl grows. If you focus near then the image circle grows, so the sheet takes less swirl, anyway you can always make a shift/rise to take a share of a not centered swirl.

So you should take a lens that covers the format with not much excess if you don't want the swirl outside of the sheet.

This is a search in flickr for 4x5 petzval : https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=4x5%20petzval you can make many searches... Some mentions the lens, or you can ask the photographer...



Note that in this shot there was a rise movement (image inverted...) that placed the swirl around the head...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bracanadezdic/8035366551/in/photolist-a9KteP-r8LfsB-oYR8E2-gZZmgZ-gZYiWU-7VWt99-df4mwB-hGrYNp-bCHNoX-dDJvXx-dZmBBi-9XCMWG-e7U3tD-eU2jy3-bovGiw-73qrfy-FD7KnL-dYYEop-7ZzqDX-okuZWq-a6U6g3-7Junze-adWiDW-pXMHV1-P17a5d-dLDJGH-Jhey6E-a7dP6q-e7BfDW-a9qYM5-ktaCeW-299BQFM-2bBGrpf-e8PAxZ-dukrdU-hGrBpW-c13r81-54h5wG-ktb7xF-9aGrwJ-fxiUus-ibuVde-ecyEAa-7Uox7W-hX4nGB-cbeGWG-98nWRk-iGGY2Z-8MsA3W-aEcQuW/

[aaronnate]

Thanks Pere. That was very helpful.