View Full Version : How does the Sinar F2 compare to the P2?
Pretty much what the title says. I have a 4x5 P2, and I'd like to move up to 8x10 at some point. At first I was assuming I could just find a conversion kit, but now I'm realizing that everything to do with 8x10 for the P2 is hard to come across...the entire camera rarely pops up on eBay, let alone a conversion kit. Meanwhile, KEH has an F2 in stock right now, and I could just use the rear standard from that thing.
Should I consider the mashup? I've never used another studio camera before and I'm not sure how much I'll miss the geared movements. I'm assuming it should be fine stability wise, even if it's not quite as robust as the P2
Mark Sampson
3-Oct-2018, 22:06
The F2 is a fine camera; I used one on the job for over 15 years. It should serve you well, and be significantly lighter than a model P or P2. Since the Sinar is a modular system, 'mashups' are quite common. I'll leave it to the true experts to advise you on 8x10 conversions.
Bernice Loui
3-Oct-2018, 23:31
Having used both the F2 and P 8x10 including "mash-ups", the real question is what will this 8x10 camera be used for? This is a critical and absolute question as even a Sinar 8x10 F2 is NOT really portable, IMO hauling around a P2 outdoors is not wise in many, many ways. The precision geared movements of a P makes a lot of sense when used in a controlled studio or similar indoor environment, Outdoors are such precise and compound movements really needed? The more ideal trade off for outdoor stuff within the Sinar system could be a 8x10 Norma. These are better built and more precise with lower weight than a F2. While it does not have the geared precision of a P, the Norma is more often beyond good enough.
It is possible to install a 8x10 conversion on to a non 8x10 P rear standard, but know this is not ideal as the 8x10 P rear standard is heftier than the standard P rear standard, weighs more and not common. Even the bellows for the 8x10 Sinars have variations and compatibility issues.
IMO, seriously consider what ya doing with the 8x10, then decide carefully. IMO, the better choice for an outdoor 8x10 camera is a Toyo 810M modified with a Sinar front frame.
The "upgrade" can end up being more up weight than upgrade as everything related to 8x10 is larger, heavier, more costly, more difficult to deal with and more problematic with significantly pinched choices in lenses. Best to consider the entire system of 8x10 with the camera being a much lesser aspect of producing images using a 8x10 view camera. Know the novelty of the big image on the ground glass can wear off and the reality of difficulties with 8x10 begins to sink in.
Bernice
Oh yeah, I have no intention of taking this thing outside. I already got hit with the reality of just how heavy the thing is when I bought my 4x5 P2 and decided I'd need a separate field camera if I ever wanted to shoot outdoors, I can't imagine trying to drag the 8x10 version around outside. But I only use my LF cameras for stitched digital still life and wet plate phtoos, and I've already decided it's not worth the bother of trying to shoot 8x10 wet plate out in the field. I'd need a bigger dark box, have to haul around bigger travel tanks, it'd just be a whole mess and my wet plate kit barely fits into the wagon I carry it in as-is. So while I do want to shoot some bigger plates, I think I'm gonna have to content myself with shooting them portrait and still life only.
Bernice Loui
4-Oct-2018, 09:35
Suggest getting a Sinar Norma instead of a field camera if this can work. Sinar Norma is not that heavy and compatible with the current Sinar system simplifying lens on board and numerous other Sinar items are compatible-interchangable.
Field cameras have a place if this is the primary need.
Bernice
Pere Casals
4-Oct-2018, 10:21
"The F series was the light-weight version ("F" for "Field"), offering less refined features than the P series. The weight difference is about 3.3 kg for the Sinar F 4x5 vs. 5.9 kg for the Sinar P 4x5."
See P and F chapters here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinar , it's very well explained.
I support what Bernice says, I'd prefer a Norma over a F or a P. It's strong, lightweight and beautiful, it's easy to service it without replacing parts. It's also the original design from Mr. Carl Koch, and IMHO this adds a lot of glamour on it.
"The Norma, built between 1947 and 1970 is the best built view camera ever made and quite collectable. The Norma is strong and light weight; the 4X5 Norma weighs just 7.5#. That is little more than the Sinar F, which is not 1/10 the camera the Norma is. The Norma is compact; it will fold down against the monorail. " http://glennview.com/sinar.htm
P and F series are excellent, absolutely no doubt, but a Norma has a magnetic atraction (to me, at least). This is AA with a 5x7 one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ZCEXWdIMg&t=6s
Bernice Loui
4-Oct-2018, 10:29
The only significant advantage of a P, P2 or X has over the Norma is when used in the studio or similar environment where combined tilt-swing-rise-fall can be often used. This is where a camera like the P has few equals for ease of use, stability and ability to support BIG lenses. This combined with a Sinar shutter and modularity has few if any camera limitations. Once the need for ease of combined camera movements is reduced, the Sinar Norma is superior in most every way.
Of all the view cameras used to date, Linhof, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Kodak Master, Dorf, Toyo, Horseman, Wisner, Burke & James, Canham DLC, Speed & Crown Graphic and.... The Sinar Norma stands out as the all time fave.
As with any camera system it is a mere image making tool, nothing more, nothing less.
Bernice
Bob Salomon
4-Oct-2018, 12:00
The only significant advantage of a P, P2 or X has over the Norma is when used in the studio or similar environment where combined tilt-swing-rise-fall can be often used. This is where a camera like the P has few equals for ease of use, stability and ability to support BIG lenses. This combined with a Sinar shutter and modularity has few if any camera limitations. Once the need for ease of combined camera movements is reduced, the Sinar Norma is superior in most every way.
Of all the view cameras used to date, Linhof, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Kodak Master, Dorf, Toyo, Horseman, Wisner, Burke & James, Canham DLC, Speed & Crown Graphic and.... The Sinar Norma stands out as the all time fave.
As with any camera system it is a mere image making tool, nothing more, nothing less.
Bernice
Try buying a Kardan B.
There is a major difference between a Norma and a P version. As symmetrical axis movements vs base movements,
Pere Casals
5-Oct-2018, 00:34
There is a major difference between a Norma and a P version. As symmetrical axis movements vs base movements,
Let me add that base movements are more convenient for landscape, as we can focus the mountain and tilt back until we also have the flower in focus...
But the F series is better than the Norma in that because with the Norma when we combine a tilt with a rise then the axis of the tilt is way under ther base, The F design corrected that in expense of a less compact device.
Anyway the Norma is intuitive, controls fall easy at hand, has no limitations, it's precise and it's a joy to use it...
Of course a photographer may prefer specialized gear, a P3, a Technika, or a Wide... But IMHO a Norma still it's a do-it-all LF workhorse like few cameras.
In 1947 the Norma was a new concept, openning an era in Pro LF gear manufacturing, and still today it's a serious choice for a LF shooter. A flawless and refined design...
Daniel Unkefer
6-Oct-2018, 06:36
I'll chime in and suggest an 8x10 Norma back. That is what I have used out in the field for thirty five years, shooting Architecture and Landscape.
Normas are easier to find than Kardan B's, particularly the accessories. Even a completely trashed Norma can be restored with care and skill, as long as the castings are not broken.
Bernice Loui
6-Oct-2018, 10:28
Sinar Norma IS a very nice camera to use in many ways. The asymmetric tilt-swing of the Sinar P, F, X, can save time when needed and used properly, view camera folks have been compensating for what asymmetric tilt-swing can do for a long time by additional camera adjustments. It's not that big a deal, really, if photographer understands and knows what to do, how to compensate.
That said, accessories and all related to stuff required to make any view camera more useable and produce images with special needs, Sinar is realistic in many ways. Sinar accessories are not too difficult to find-get and of mostly good lasting build quality and works as advertised-claimed. This most important detail is very signifiant one the photographer discovers a need for a view camera widget that can make an idea for expressive images possible. Few if any view camera systems made have the range of accessories with ease of availability as Sinar.
There are very, very good reasons why Sinar sold SO many view cameras and was used by SO many photographers that resulted in SO many remarkable view camera images.
Bernice
I'll chime in and suggest an 8x10 Norma back. That is what I have used out in the field for thirty five years, shooting Architecture and Landscape.
Normas are easier to find than Kardan B's, particularly the accessories. Even a completely trashed Norma can be restored with care and skill, as long as the castings are not broken.
Thanks for the advice, everyone. In the end I decided to just go ahead and buy the F2, I like my asymmetric movements and it has the advantage of being available at the moment ;) I figure I'll still probably try to pick up a P2 special bearer at some point in the future (can you attach the standard from the F2 to it?), but for now at least I'll have something to shoot 8x10 on, and more Sinar spare parts.
I have had the Norma (5x7) and now a F2. Really like the F2 in use in the field.
The F2 4x5 is nice, but the 8x10 is probably too unwieldy. You don't actually achieve meaningful savings in weight (7.9 kg for the F2, and some 8.5 kg for the full set P2 8x10 - meaning that if you just find a F2 front standard and make a Sinar C 8x10, the weight will be identical with that of the F2).
The bigger MB accommodation in the F2, plus the two thick rods underneath that stick out, also mean it's harder to backpack the whole rig. I use a F2 up to 5x7 only. But YMMV.
The big problem with all sinar conversions to 8x10 is direct front rise, only the real p2 front standard has any real capacity built in.
Extensions can be added to the Norma front but they’re hard to find (easier to have them made)
The Norma is a much better camera than any version of the f
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Pere Casals
8-Oct-2018, 06:26
Extensions can be added to the Norma front but they’re hard to find (easier to have them made)
The Norma is a much better camera than any version of the f
I'd say that the F models also can take extensions for the rise, just removing the "Rise Rod End Cap" you can add extension rods:
183119
And yes, a norma is a norma... the Fs are not bad.
Bernice Loui
8-Oct-2018, 20:31
The MB (Meter Back) is mostly useless outdoors due to the bulk of the rear unit and if one were to use the Sinar metering probe, it does not work well at all out doors due to stray light at the GG.
These versions of Sinar backs have GG lifters that do not always seat flat when opened, then closed. The do and can move slightly sideways causing the GG holder to be uneven. Not common, but can happen and a detail worth being aware of.
IMO, Sinar F or P 8x10 works much better as a studio or mostly indoor camera. If a 8x10 is to spend most of it's life outdoors, there are better choices.
Bernice
The F2 4x5 is nice, but the 8x10 is probably too unwieldy. You don't actually achieve meaningful savings in weight (7.9 kg for the F2, and some 8.5 kg for the full set P2 8x10 - meaning that if you just find a F2 front standard and make a Sinar C 8x10, the weight will be identical with that of the F2).
The bigger MB accommodation in the F2, plus the two thick rods underneath that stick out, also mean it's harder to backpack the whole rig. I use a F2 up to 5x7 only. But YMMV.
Drew Wiley
8-Oct-2018, 21:44
The true 8x10 F2 has especially thick STEEL riser columns on the front standard, as opposed to the regular aluminum ones. Lots of used Sinars show up hybrid, cobbled together from mismatched components. And there are different versions of P as well. Like several others here, I happen to prefer Norma, but they are harder to find in pristine condition. The later P's are nice if you do a lot of tabletop studio photography; otherwise they can be clumsy unless you have one helluva studio stand or tripod support.
I'd say that the F models also can take extensions for the rise, just removing the "Rise Rod End Cap" you can add extension rods:
183119
And yes, a norma is a norma... the Fs are not bad.
Are there official extension rods for F2? I'd be interested to have one to extend its rise capability when used with my P2 back. Thanks.
Pere Casals
10-Oct-2018, 02:28
Are there official extension rods for F2? I'd be interested to have one to extend its rise capability when used with my P2 back. Thanks.
Sinar catalog only shows rods for the hood: http://www.hotz.be/files/Sinar_Catalogue_2015.pdf
It can be done in a machine shop, just a rod made of stainless steel with a centered hole with thread, that would take a dowel with same screew than the end caps, I'd fix the dowel to the extension with Threadlocking Adhesive Loctite 270.
I don't know if using extension rods may stress something else... IMHO one should take care with that.
But remember that, for additional rise, you can always use indirect movements, if you tilt front and rear the same angle then what you have is an equivalent rise...
Luis-F-S
10-Oct-2018, 09:48
Thanks for the advice, everyone. In the end I decided to just go ahead and buy the F2, I like my asymmetric movements and it has the advantage of being available at the moment ;) I figure I'll still probably try to pick up a P2 special bearer at some point in the future (can you attach the standard from the F2 to it?), but for now at least I'll have something to shoot 8x10 on, and more Sinar spare parts.
A wise decision. Now wasn't that easy? (by the way, I have 3 F2's an a 45 / 810 P system).
(can you attach the standard from the F2 to it?)...
My understanding is no.
A wise decision. Now wasn't that easy? (by the way, I have 3 F2's an a 45 / 810 P system).
(can you attach the standard from the F2 to it?)...
My understanding is no.
You are correct, because the part attaching the F2 frame to the rear standard is a rail that doubles as the mechanism for horizontal shifts, whereas the P2 frame is attached firmly to the rear standard by way of a screw (since the horizontal shift takes place at the standard bearer.
A wise decision. Now wasn't that easy?
Heh, it just got harder. KEH shipped the F2 this morning, and someone pointed out to me another site that's currently selling an 8x10 conversion kit (no special bearer though, just the frame, back and bellows). So now I'm thinking I'm probably gonna send the F2 back, eat the shipping and get the P2 conversion instead
Bernice Loui
10-Oct-2018, 23:32
Which ya might discover the 8x10 P conversion does not work all that well on a non 8x10 rear P standard and the front standard might be a problem too.
IMO, if ya want a 8x10 P, get a real Sinar 8x10 P.
Bernice
Heh, it just got harder. KEH shipped the F2 this morning, and someone pointed out to me another site that's currently selling an 8x10 conversion kit (no special bearer though, just the frame, back and bellows). So now I'm thinking I'm probably gonna send the F2 back, eat the shipping and get the P2 conversion instead
Heh, it just got harder. KEH shipped the F2 this morning, and someone pointed out to me another site that's currently selling an 8x10 conversion kit (no special bearer though, just the frame, back and bellows). So now I'm thinking I'm probably gonna send the F2 back, eat the shipping and get the P2 conversion instead
That is quick! Is it the F2 8x10 with proper standards? Great if you could post a picture to share.
And yes, I'd say a P 8x10 conversion is a better bet. Is it the first non-MB version? You need to know that too because the zero positions in the P and P2 rear standards are different. Cheers.
Which ya might discover the 8x10 P conversion does not work all that well on a non 8x10 rear P standard and the front standard might be a problem too.
Yeah, but I can always keep my eyes open for a special bearer later on. Unlike the conversion kit, I've actually seen those on eBay.
That is quick! Is it the F2 8x10 with proper standards? Great if you could post a picture to share.
It's supposed to be, but I'll know for sure when it gets here. Heh, I guess it would actually be for the best if it turned out to be incomplete for some reason, then they wouldn't charge me to send it back
And yes, I'd say a P 8x10 conversion is a better bet. Is it the first non-MB version? You need to know that too because the zero positions in the P and P2 rear standards are different. Cheers.
It's the kit with metering back for the P2. The catalog number's 497.58.
It's the kit with metering back for the P2. The catalog number's 497.58.
By all means go for it - it's the one you've been looking for and just use the normal rear standard for the time being. Quoting a response above, the special standards are not a must, and you can always use indirect shift (i.e. tilting the rail and reverse-tilt the standards) to achieve the same result.
Bernice Loui
12-Oct-2018, 20:17
FYI, the original Sinar 8x10 P. Note the front standard is almost all the way up and the special T-rear standard quite low. This limited the amount of lens rise, film back drop. Solution, use indirect rise as needed.
183286
Bernice
Bernice Loui
12-Oct-2018, 20:23
Sinar altered both front and rear standards for the 8x10 P2. The T rear standard was finished in black (# 433.52), the 8x10 front standard was made with increase rise and a different detent position specifically for 8x10 (# 431.52). This solved the limited front lens rise problem with the original 8x10P that used the standard P front standard.
183288
P2 catalog page for standards and the 8x10 MB conversion kit# 497.58
183289
Bernice
How did it go in the end?
I currently have both of them in my apartment, getting ready to call KEH and ask for an RMA for the F2, actually. Both were in great shape, but I definitely like being able to swap the P2 frame onto my existing standard bearer better, and I'll be keeping an eye out for the special bearer and front standard.
So the f2 is one that is with the proper front and rear standards? That would be as heavy as the p2 setup, I would imagine!
It was pretty hefty. While I was testing it (lol, hoping to find something wrong so keh would pay for return shipping, but no dice) I had its rear standard mounted with my p2 front standard, and I used some extension rails to get closeish focus. Then I took the rear standard off to put back in the box without even thinking about how much weight I was removing, only to see my whole tripod tip over with my Dallmeyer 3B on the front of it. Thankfully the lens turned out to be sturdier than my particle board coffee table
Bernice Loui
19-Oct-2018, 18:33
Real as produced by Sinar 8x10 F2 weights almost as much as a 8x10 P (P2), having lugged around an 8x10 F2 before, a fully loaded F2 with proper tripod, lens and all is no joke weight wise. Given a choice, seriously consider the P (P2) over the F2 as it is just nicer to use in many ways and the P front standard can support heavier lenses than the F2 front standard with better stability and control of movements. Got to say, Sinar P remains one of my fave view cameras to use to this day.. when all is proper with them, they work really well in so many ways.
Suggest getting one 18" extension rail and two 12" extension rails for 8x10. The 6" extension rail is not as useful for 8x10 due to bellows draw for longer focal length lenses typical of 8x10.
Bernice
Pere Casals
20-Oct-2018, 01:19
The 6" extension rail
Depending on the field bag/case we use, I found that including a 6" rail in the set may allow to store the camera in a more compact way, specially if backpacking. Perhaps (in part) Mr Koch was thinking in that...
For now I've got a 12" and a 6" extension on top of the 12" base rail, which should keep me set for a while as the only lens I have that covers 8x10 is an 11.5" anyways. At some point I'll want to pick up a longer portrait lens, maybe in the 450-ish mm range, and then I'll probably need some more rail. Of course at that point I might also need a 5x7 standard to mount the daggum thing, depending on how big of one I find :p
rdenney
21-Oct-2018, 07:40
For now I've got a 12" and a 6" extension on top of the 12" base rail, which should keep me set for a while as the only lens I have that covers 8x10 is an 11.5" anyways. At some point I'll want to pick up a longer portrait lens, maybe in the 450-ish mm range, and then I'll probably need some more rail. Of course at that point I might also need a 5x7 standard to mount the daggum thing, depending on how big of one I find :p
Fuji made a CMW in 450mm and there was a Nikkor M at that focal length, but Symmars and Sironars were 480mm, as I recall. All were mounted in #3 shutters.
Focused at 15ish feet, you’ll need in the vicinity of 675mm of bellows draw—two 12’s and a 6 might work because you can use the extension cap and extend with the focus rack, or even tilt the P bases outward and correct with the asymmetric tilts. But three 12’s will be more comfortable, or some combination thereof. Extensions are easy to find.
Being able to use the shortest rail necessary is a nice feature—I’ve been stabbed in the chest too many times by too long a rail in other systems.
Rick “and a 480mm plasmat in #3 shutter should fit fine on a standard Sinar board” Denney
A copal 3 shutter would be great, but I'm looking for something I can do wet plate portraits with. Anything slower than f/4 is unfortunately gonna be pretty hard to work with, especially at 8x10 magnifications
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