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View Full Version : Unusual LF Canon LiDe (Scanner) Camera Project Needs Basic Lens Suggestions.



Markham941
21-Sep-2018, 06:43
Hello everyone,

First a little background. I am currently experimenting with a Canon Lide 35 Scanner that I converted to a LF scanner camera.

(in short, the CIS acts like a large 8x10 sensor and uses a 'lens' as a focus and scans the image)

Here is a related link:

Project information

http://makezine.com/projects/deluxe-scanner-camera/

Here is what the 'camera' looks like

182670


Here are a few "photos" I took.

182667

182668

182669


I have spent as much a great deal this week reading about lenses and while learning a lot I definitely need a more direct approach to understand more.

At the moment I am . . . cobbling together parts to replace the boxes and magnifying glass I am currently using. I will (likely) get an enlarger bellows and make or convert a monorail to use with it.

My inquiry deals with lenses.

If possible I would like suggestions for lenses for this project.

I'd like only to spend at most $150 so I assume all modern lenses are ruled out.

Also, I would be interested in any suggestion for any reason. Since my LF camera is basically digital and I won't be wasting film.

I'd like to use all the scanning space so large coverage lenses (5x7-8x10) would be nice but since i'd like to experiment with landscapes, portraits, etc anything is fine.

I was looking through process and enlarger lenses (since they are quite cheap) but i'd be interested in any cool lens or anything you found had an interesting effect or look.


anyway,

Here are a few lenses I was thinking to experiment with.

FUJINON-XEROX LENS 1:4.5 F=24 cm

Schneider Kreuznach Xenar 24cm F4.5

SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH Componon 1:5.6 210mm

INDUSTAR-11M 300mm f9


thank you for all your help I would really appreciate it.

-milo

Havoc
21-Sep-2018, 11:05
Great stuff. Can't help you much with those lenses, but from what I get of the description for making this camera, I would look for something not too wide. There is a groove in which those sensors lie.

Got an old Lide scanner somewhere and a RPi also somewhere. Might be another project...

Markham941
21-Sep-2018, 21:12
Great stuff. Can't help you much with those lenses, but from what I get of the description for making this camera, I would look for something not too wide. There is a groove in which those sensors lie.

Got an old Lide scanner somewhere and a RPi also somewhere. Might be another project...


Thank you for the advice - Totally go for it! - Please feel to ask any questions about prepping the scanner. I kinda bumbmled my way through it but got it working.

anyway,

I'll would like to experiment what the limits and . . . quirks of the scanner are.

I was lucky today and saw that the school I work for (I'm a teacher in Japan) was tossing out two slide projectors and an overhead projector.

I can get two lenses, an enlarging glass and a fresnel!


As for lenses any suggestions would be nice. I've been compiling information on specifics to get an idea of what to expect from certain optics.

Info like: Dallmeyer Pentac lenes are good for a 'soft' look. Process and enlarging lenses are good for direct shoots. Componar and some Beseler lenes are not worth it since they only have 3 elements. APO or apochromat lenses are highly corrected so very sharp. Using 210mm 5.6 lenses are portrait lenses.

Thins like that.

Markham941
21-Sep-2018, 21:19
For those interested - here are a few notes about the pictures.

1. They are screen shots since the actual images are quite big.
2. I haven't been able to resolve the 'shadow' on the edge of the frame. It is likely caused by reflections inside the scanner - likely the scanner rail.

Picture 1 - The strangeness in from the people moving. It's an interesting aspect of the scanner as it takes 55 seconds to scan at 300dpi and well people move.

Picture 2 - The strangeness, (White lines) is from people walking by and being scanned at a fraction of a second.

Picture 3 - 1200dpi scan that took 7 minutes to complete. The image is over 100mb.

Havoc
22-Sep-2018, 02:31
1. They are screen shots since the actual images are quite big.
2. I haven't been able to resolve the 'shadow' on the edge of the frame. It is likely caused by reflections inside the scanner - likely the scanner rail.

1: get a program that let you resize your "photo". Something simple as Irfanview will let you scale them to a size that can be put on the site. I bet even Paint vcan do that.

2: I'm looking at you photo with the sop front. From the distortion of the people I guess the camera is scanning from left to right (or the other way round). I fear it can be vignetting. Look at this site, this is what made me put my Lide aside when I got the V700 (you probably have) http://golembewski.awardspace.com/cameras/scanner/index.html. (it seems to be the same guy from the makezine link)

Markham941
22-Sep-2018, 03:56
1: get a program that let you resize your "photo". Something simple as Irfanview will let you scale them to a size that can be put on the site. I bet even Paint vcan do that.

2: I'm looking at you photo with the sop front. From the distortion of the people I guess the camera is scanning from left to right (or the other way round). I fear it can be vignetting. Look at this site, this is what made me put my Lide aside when I got the V700 (you probably have) http://golembewski.awardspace.com/cameras/scanner/index.html. (it seems to be the same guy from the makezine link)


1. Thanks for the suggestions!

I was just lazy and decided to take screenshots. Since I'm just testing I don't mind the large file size on some photos. I actually will likely use a RAM disk to view them as they bog down my laptop when I quickly zoom in and out to look at the details.

VueScan, the software I am using, can also scale the image / quality, I just haven't played with the setting to much yet.


2. I have seen this site. I did a fair amount of testing (without a lens) and I don't think it's vignetting although I wasn't able to rule it out completely. I actually emailed the site owner about the issue.

Funny enough about the scan directions, since the scanner can be rotated in either orientation, I can get the 'vignetting' on either side. lol.

Having another lens may clear up if it's a lens issue or a reflection of the chrome rail on the inside. I actually have a second Canon LiDe 35, so I can swap out parts and do some testing. I have been wanting to paint the rail but didn't want to destroy the only working body I had.


Also, today I scored some FREE optics. (Sure the coverage will be small but I can test them in my camera for my experimenting.

Kodak Ektanar zoom projection lens 4 - 6 inches (From a carousel 35mm projector)

Cabin F=100-150mm 1:3.5 (From a 35mm slide projector)

The lens from an overhead projector

A fresnel lens from the same overhead projector. (Will work nice as a cheap ground glass)

tzava-ro
29-Sep-2018, 22:52
Hi :)
Considering i made 4 of these, i can provide some info.
1. look for process lens, they cost nothing. I payed ~10eur on a pair of eskofot ultragon lenses ( 150 f8 and 210 f8 ), then another ~120 eur for 3 Zeiss process lenses ( 240, 360, 420 all f8 ).
2. Get rid of the led light : remove the long plastic diffuser and either paint it with black nail polish, or just remove it with a wire cutter, scanner dosn`t mind :); seems you already done that.
3. LIDE scanners > 100 ( lide 110, lide 220 ) have a much better mechanical side ( rack and pinion vs wire ) for moving. This will remove SOME of the horizontal striping. You can never fully remove the striping it causes.

4. The best thing you can do is modify the scanning assembly. With some care ( i can explain in better detail if needed ), you can remove the actual cis sensor and move it to the top layer of the scanning assembly.
Currently it resided underneath some linear lenses ( done to increase sharpness when scanning flat things ). After moving it to the top layer ( under the glass ), you can paint the green pcb it resides on black ( it will cause reflections with the glass on top ).
This will remove ALL vignetting, and you can scan the whole 8x10 ( actually A4 size ).

5. Get a UV/IR cut filter. The CIS sensor sees a LOT of UV and some IR. It will clean your photos

An example of what was done with a modded Lide35, without filter. :
182891

LaterEdit : it seems that it did not attach at a respectable resolution, you can see it better on my Flickr : https://www.flickr.com/photos/-silviu-/16638183526/

Markham941
30-Sep-2018, 17:56
Hi :)
Considering i made 4 of these, i can provide some info.
1. look for process lens, they cost nothing. I payed ~10eur on a pair of eskofot ultragon lenses ( 150 f8 and 210 f8 ), then another ~120 eur for 3 Zeiss process lenses ( 240, 360, 420 all f8 ).
2. Get rid of the led light : remove the long plastic diffuser and either paint it with black nail polish, or just remove it with a wire cutter, scanner dosn`t mind :); seems you already done that.
3. LIDE scanners > 100 ( lide 110, lide 220 ) have a much better mechanical side ( rack and pinion vs wire ) for moving. This will remove SOME of the horizontal striping. You can never fully remove the striping it causes.

4. The best thing you can do is modify the scanning assembly. With some care ( i can explain in better detail if needed ), you can remove the actual cis sensor and move it to the top layer of the scanning assembly.
Currently it resided underneath some linear lenses ( done to increase sharpness when scanning flat things ). After moving it to the top layer ( under the glass ), you can paint the green pcb it resides on black ( it will cause reflections with the glass on top ).
This will remove ALL vignetting, and you can scan the whole 8x10 ( actually A4 size ).

5. Get a UV/IR cut filter. The CIS sensor sees a LOT of UV and some IR. It will clean your photos

An example of what was done with a modded Lide35, without filter. :
182891

LaterEdit : it seems that it did not attach at a respectable resolution, you can see it better on my Flickr : https://www.flickr.com/photos/-silviu-/16638183526/

WOW !!!!

Thank you!!

I am in the process now of getting a LiDe 220. Although I just finished grinding and modifying my second LiDe 30 this weekend.

about number 4


Yes, please explain if you can. (Any pictures?) What model are you referring to?

So far I have just don the 'usual' mod and ground the black CIS housing on my LiDe 30.


About number 5


Thank you. I was wondering about how much IR and UV light the scanner could see and figured I'd wait when I could focus on it to research more.

Thanks! This was incredibly helpful.

Also,
Do you do any post processing?



Thanks again!

tzava-ro
3-Oct-2018, 10:32
Me again ..

Processing was some levels in photoshop.
The UV/IR is an issue only when photographing people ( tedious work, 40 seconds exposure :)) )
Can you post a picture of what have you done to the sensor assembly ?

The sensor assembly is nearly identical on all Lide scanners ( i modified 25,25,90 and 110 ). The only issue is that you have to handle the sensor`s PCB directly, and it is EXTREMELY fragile when not attached to the black plastic piece. Even the slightest bend of the PCB will result in a broken sensor. I broke 4 out of 6 scanners i modified. Once the modding is done, it will be sturdy enough to use.

Your post gave me some new enthusiasm for this, so i ordered a Lide 110. It should arrive in 2-3 days.
I will mod it and take pictures. Most probably over a weekend.

Feel free to PM me about this, as i tend to forget to check the forums.

You`re welcome,
Silviu

domaz
3-Oct-2018, 15:05
Results on this thread are fascinating but has anyone figured out how to remove the linear banding those LiDe Scanner modifications always seem to have. Any idea what causes it?

Greg
3-Oct-2018, 16:22
Few years ago I did essentially the same as you but with an Epson Perfection V39 scanner (looks very similar to the Canon). Got the same line effect when the scanner was in a vertical position. I don't remember which side was at the bottom. Redid the camera's configuration but with the scanner lying horizontally flat and the lines went away. At that point, I gave up and proceeded to my next photo project, so can't say for sure that the lines are artifacts caused by the scanner being in vertical position, but possibly the reason. Worth a try to orientate your camera with the Canon LiDe scanner lying horizontally.

Markham941
3-Oct-2018, 17:23
Results on this thread are fascinating but has anyone figured out how to remove the linear banding those LiDe Scanner modifications always seem to have. Any idea what causes it?

I think proper 'calibration' is needed to reduce the lines.

I tweak some of the settings (mostly, black and white point) but i think the lines have more to due with the mechanical motion and any vibrations even from the scanner itself.

Markham941
3-Oct-2018, 17:33
Me again ..

Processing was some levels in photoshop.
The UV/IR is an issue only when photographing people ( tedious work, 40 seconds exposure :)) )
Can you post a picture of what have you done to the sensor assembly ?

The sensor assembly is nearly identical on all Lide scanners ( i modified 25,25,90 and 110 ). The only issue is that you have to handle the sensor`s PCB directly, and it is EXTREMELY fragile when not attached to the black plastic piece. Even the slightest bend of the PCB will result in a broken sensor. I broke 4 out of 6 scanners i modified. Once the modding is done, it will be sturdy enough to use.

Your post gave me some new enthusiasm for this, so i ordered a Lide 110. It should arrive in 2-3 days.
I will mod it and take pictures. Most probably over a weekend.

Feel free to PM me about this, as i tend to forget to check the forums.

You`re welcome,
Silviu

sounds great!

I'll post images of the CIS assembly and my methods when I get home.

Although the motion distortions are cool, it is quite hard to have a subject sit still for 40 seconds as the scanner . . . scans.

I'm sure playing with the DPI and distance of the subject could help with that. (But I bet you know that)

I think a Lide 220 scans at 8-10 seconds at 300 DPI! I'm getting mine this week.

anyway, here is picture of camera coming together.

I'm using a TOYO 6x8 rig to get a 8.7x8.7 scanning surface (without the film / ground glass back)

I'm waiting for an extension rail and then I can begin testing the bellows and how to securely attach the scanner to back of the 6x8 standard.

The lens board is just a magnifying glass on cardboard


182983

tzava-ro
3-Oct-2018, 21:42
Results on this thread are fascinating but has anyone figured out how to remove the linear banding those LiDe Scanner modifications always seem to have. Any idea what causes it?

The lines seem to be caused by a combination of factors :
1. Cis scanners scan something by illuminating 4 times the same line. Red green blue and white ( all 3 ). Meaning it exposes the line 4 times. Somehow it autocalibrates between lines. This means one line is a little overexposed and the next one underexposed.
2. The stepper motor that moves the scanhead in combination is coarse at 300-600 dpi.
3. The scanning assembly has only 1 rail, so it can move a little.

At 2400 dpi they are not there anymore. ( tested with a 110 )

I thought of a way to rebuild the scanner with linear rollers ( like a 3d printer / cnc machine ). Costs and work are becoming bad at that point, although i might do that sometime.


Later edit : You need a better lens :). The scanner can resolve as much as a well scanned negative. As i previously said : look for process lens, cheap and with an aperture. Most of them will cove much more than 8x10. I`ll pm you an ideea i have :).

Silviu

Markham941
4-Oct-2018, 20:36
Indeed!

Here are a few more pictures. I think they are all at 100dpi

I used a magnifying glass and some aperture cards to experiment with the razor thin DOF and just to do some test shots.


'Lens" Focal Length Test


183002

Lens Depth of Field Test


183003


Self Portrait Test


183005


Photoshoot Picture - Cropped


The picture isn't very good but the 'compressed' look of the toddler running towards the camera is very interesting!

183004