Sam Hiser is still working on the New55 technology

[Degroto]

Interesting stuff at Famous Format:
http://famousformat.com/2018/09/17/looking-for-a-ship-part-i/

[Oren Grad]

Thanks for posting this... I've changed the thread title so that its significance will be more obvious.

[Degroto]

Thanks!

[Liquid Artist]

Good to know,
I bought polaroid 4x5 back right around the time they cancelled the project. I was almost heartbroken at the time.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yup. Saw that over at Apug... I mean, Photrio. I would be happy to see it come back. My last box processed very well.

[mitrajoon]

Fascinating essay. I kept hearing the theme from Man of La Mancha while reading it. I've used his monobath and am quite happy with it. Hope his impossible dream comes true. I'm in for the ride, regardless.

[Fred L]

I've got a bunch of holders in the gear locker and hope this is a baby step towards more p/n. but time will tell...

[Duolab123]

This would be great

[EdSawyer]

Or, rather than wishing, you could just go get some 2009 vintage real Polaroid 55 and enjoy that. The stuff I've shot on it has turned out fine, generally. And it's miles ahead of what new55 ever was or will be, at least for the forseeable future.

[Degroto]

Nah why buy old stuff if you can help revive a great film type to last us for years to come?

[EdSawyer]

because the old stuff is better, and eventually will become unusable anyway. plus new55 is so far from being a viable replacement or even decent in it's own right, it needs time to mature before they bother trying to sell it again.

[mitrajoon]

Exactly!

[Degroto]

I can see your point. However with such smal markets for this kind of film a company just doesn't have the luxury of developing a complete and flawles product. That is too expensive and too time consuming. New55 just like Impossible and undoubtley Kaps with the FP100c restart need to sell products that are not 100% good to make money and keep developing the film to perfection. If you don't like that idea that is fine but steering people away from companies that do their stinking best to develop a good product is not classy in my book. if you don't like it don't buy it. I get that it is expensive stuff and that it might fail. I like the imperfections of the film although sometimes it can be rather annoying. But thinking of the bigger picture I applaud them for even trying to do this. It is too easy to critise someone for trying. But this is how I think about it.

[Nodda Duma]

Their biggest obstacle was pretty obvious: They were still thinking in terms of a 1999-like film market. When I was down visiting and pointed out to Sam that he only needed to produce enough pods to meet current demand, it was like a light bulb turned on and he realized they had been artificially limiting their thinking. He realized they could use smaller equipment (and more importantly, exponentially cheaper equipment) to do what they need to do.

I wish them the best of luck .. the film industry needs smaller businesses driving innovation in this new reality we find ourselves in. The big guys from film’s heydey cannot or will not drive the development of new (or re-introduced) products. While the market is smaller, film industry has taken on much healthier, more robust characteristics than when it was dominated by a single giant yellow monolith.

-Jason

[Mark Sampson]

The root problem with the attempts to remake instant film materials is that a successful result is extremely difficult to engineer. It took massive amounts of engineering knowledge and research time to build a finished product that worked well and was reliable. T-55 was funded not only by Polaroid but the "giant yellow monolith" as well.
Admittedly the current entrepeneurs are reverse-engineering (formerly) existing products, so have a head start, but "the devil is in the details".
Even Polaroid sheet film wasn't 100% reliable, and we had to be religious about the care and handling of our 545 holders, but we accepted the occasional failure; because the result was excellent most of the time. If the new guys can't improve their quality beyond the "wow, we got something! kinda goofy looking, but it's something!" level, they are doomed.
I do wish them the best of luck, and I do think that it can be done. it will just take a lot of money, hard work, and persistence. How much, we'll find out.

[Bob Salomon]

The root problem with the attempts to remake instant film materials is that a successful result is extremely difficult to engineer. It took massive amounts of engineering knowledge and research time to build a finished product that worked well and was reliable. T-55 was funded not only by Polaroid but the "giant yellow monolith" as well.
Admittedly the current entrepeneurs are reverse-engineering (formerly) existing products, so have a head start, but "the devil is in the details".
Even Polaroid sheet film wasn't 100% reliable, and we had to be religious about the care and handling of our 545 holders, but we accepted the occasional failure; because the result was excellent most of the time. If the new guys can't improve their quality beyond the "wow, we got something! kinda goofy looking, but it's something!" level, they are doomed.
I do wish them the best of luck, and I do think that it can be done. it will just take a lot of money, hard work, and persistence. How much, we'll find out.

Another consideration is who has successfully produced and marketed an instant film product?

Polaroid.

Kodak, until they got caught in patent infringement and lost.

Fuji.

All others have either not attempted it or failed to sucessfully produce a quality product and quit!

[EdSawyer]

agreed with Mark Sampson and Bob. The "so-so" quality product has no place in the market, really. At least not if it's going to be sold for anything close to "full" price. If they can't make it well, they should not sell it until they can. And yeah, I am not a buyer for that sort of stuff, but if it was on-point quality-wise, I would be. Until then, expired Fp100c and Polaroid 55 will have to do in the immediate term. And as robust as the film market might appear now, with the smaller players, it's a shadow of it's former self in the 80s/90s. There were even more small players back then, than now, plus all the big players with their hugely encompassing product lines.

[esearing]

Sam, Forget the pods and instant processing. Readyloads are what is needed with a simple holder for reduction of weight and volume.

[Degroto]

Sam, Forget the pods and instant processing. Readyloads are what is needed with a simple holder for reduction of weight and volume.

Blasphemus!!!! Of course we need instant film. Go wash your mouth with soap now my child! :p :p :p

[swhiser]

There are a few good thoughts here that I can take on-board. Some I'll leave alone ;-)

Some people talk as if New55 PN were just another product, and I wish they would be just a little more circumspect. The thing would be very different if there was even ONE competitor in instant 4x5 peel-apart. The fact that nobody popped up after the New55 Holdings, LLC, dissolution should tell you something about the difficulty and the deterrent and nothing about the level of market interest -- which is still off-the-hook.

Turns out I am working for Ed Sawyer after all, since he said he WOULD be a buyer if New55 PN's quality were to improve. You can be sure there is no point in continuing this format without a plan to fix the design and performance issues. We aren't trying to be as LAME as POSSIBLE. Improved performance is the beginning of the way to get the 90-plus-% of the market we left behind in the R&D proof-of-principle phase.

Pods are relevant to this. It took me far too long to recognize the number of ways pods can kill performance; so this pause, this chance to take stock and look at the thing from a number of different angles, has been productive. Some of you might recall how we had a bad paper coating experience during the Kickstarter fulfillment period. Either nobody was doing what we needed or we lacked the experience to articulate our needs (to this one particular vendor); but we had the engineering skills to take that process in-house and were successful at producing in a way that taught us how to manage a large job later, off-campus, if needed. We can do the same with pods upon bringing that part in house, too. With a very consistent no-bloat pod made under our QC, the New55 PN system will have a kind of ease and confidence in reliability that the 545 holder never, ever, saw. Some of this also depends upon a better quality print paper and new sleeve design which were inevitable all along and are now in progress. I think the Gen3 version of New55 PN should bring some wallflowers off the sidelines -- even at the same high price, which is not going to budge for a while.

This performance / value jump does that thing in micro-economics where the Demand Curve (Y-axis is PRICE, X-axis is QUANTITY; the DEMAND Curve looks like this \) gets pushed outward (to the right). So at the same high price our new Curve indicates 1.5X to 2.0X the previous Quantity. THEN, it's at the ensuing Price-Cut (which in my opinion ought to be an emphatic 30%-off) that gives us a new Quantity reading of something like 3.0X the original. Roll this out in North America, Europe and Asia and we have the kind of support that we need to grow the business (by, say, rolling out complementary products like COLOR and different speeds). We estimate there are 100K-200K 4x5 cameras in use in US & Europe taken together. We have no idea about Asia, but going forward with the business is the way to find that out.

I am encouraged by the number of new camera makers who have entered since our 2014 Kickstarter. We've lost Ebony, but Chamonix and Shen Hao are there; Toyo is there; Nagaoka is still there; Canham and Linhof of course; and we have added Intrepid, Walker, Gibellini, BOMM, Stenopeika, and VDS. That's a reflection of a healthy ecosystem -- particularly in a field where old cameras don't die and the new ones add cumulatively.

Yes, the market is different than in the golden age, but that is now receding further and further out of relevance. I am excited about the level of activity today in large format photography happening on its own terms among artists, portraitists, conceptualists and amateurs alike. We are trying to understand 4x5 workers, methods & motivations but the 8x10 market is even more exciting in some ways (not in terms of absolute number of participants but) because of what the 8x10 scale means to expression. So we will need to develop our Gen5 film-packet, holder and processing system from scratch for 8x10 and feed back the best aspects of that adventure to the Gen5 system for 4x5.

There's a lot to do and the enthusiasm I am witnessing in large-format is the sine qua non.

[Fred L]

hold on...you're thinking of 8x10 instant film ? If there's a neg AND a positive, well...JUST. TAKE.MY. MONEY ! :)

[EdSawyer]

Where does the money come from? Unless there is a whale investor somewhere along the lines, all the good ideas re: improvement will be for naught. and IMNSHO, kickstarter and the like are non-starters.

[swhiser]

Ed - Kickstarter in general is excellent, but not for purchasing big machines. Obviously, investors are needed but I am not at liberty to talk about what plans may or may not exist to sell Common Stock.

[Bob Salomon]

There are a few good thoughts here that I can take on-board. Some I'll leave alone ;-)

Some people talk as if New55 PN were just another product, and I wish they would be just a little more circumspect. The thing would be very different if there was even ONE competitor in instant 4x5 peel-apart. The fact that nobody popped up after the New55 Holdings, LLC, dissolution should tell you something about the difficulty and the deterrent and nothing about the level of market interest -- which is still off-the-hook.

Turns out I am working for Ed Sawyer after all, since he said he WOULD be a buyer if New55 PN's quality were to improve. You can be sure there is no point in continuing this format without a plan to fix the design and performance issues. We aren't trying to be as LAME as POSSIBLE. Improved performance is the beginning of the way to get the 90-plus-% of the market we left behind in the R&D proof-of-principle phase.

Pods are relevant to this. It took me far too long to recognize the number of ways pods can kill performance; so this pause, this chance to take stock and look at the thing from a number of different angles, has been productive. Some of you might recall how we had a bad paper coating experience during the Kickstarter fulfillment period. Either nobody was doing what we needed or we lacked the experience to articulate our needs (to this one particular vendor); but we had the engineering skills to take that process in-house and were successful at producing in a way that taught us how to manage a large job later, off-campus, if needed. We can do the same with pods upon bringing that part in house, too. With a very consistent no-bloat pod made under our QC, the New55 PN system will have a kind of ease and confidence in reliability that the 545 holder never, ever, saw. Some of this also depends upon a better quality print paper and new sleeve design which were inevitable all along and are now in progress. I think the Gen3 version of New55 PN should bring some wallflowers off the sidelines -- even at the same high price, which is not going to budge for a while.

This performance / value jump does that thing in micro-economics where the Demand Curve (Y-axis is PRICE, X-axis is QUANTITY; the DEMAND Curve looks like this \) gets pushed outward (to the right). So at the same high price our new Curve indicates 1.5X to 2.0X the previous Quantity. THEN, it's at the ensuing Price-Cut (which in my opinion ought to be an emphatic 30%-off) that gives us a new Quantity reading of something like 3.0X the original. Roll this out in North America, Europe and Asia and we have the kind of support that we need to grow the business (by, say, rolling out complementary products like COLOR and different speeds). We estimate there are 100K-200K 4x5 cameras in use in US & Europe taken together. We have no idea about Asia, but going forward with the business is the way to find that out.

I am encouraged by the number of new camera makers who have entered since our 2014 Kickstarter. We've lost Ebony, but Chamonix and Shen Hao are there; Toyo is there; Nagaoka is still there; Canham and Linhof of course; and we have added Intrepid, Walker, Gibellini, BOMM, Stenopeika, and VDS. That's a reflection of a healthy ecosystem -- particularly in a field where old cameras don't die and the new ones add cumulatively.

Yes, the market is different than in the golden age, but that is now receding further and further out of relevance. I am excited about the level of activity today in large format photography happening on its own terms among artists, portraitists, conceptualists and amateurs alike. We are trying to understand 4x5 workers, methods & motivations but the 8x10 market is even more exciting in some ways (not in terms of absolute number of participants but) because of what the 8x10 scale means to expression. So we will need to develop our Gen5 film-packet, holder and processing system from scratch for 8x10 and feed back the best aspects of that adventure to the Gen5 system for 4x5.

There's a lot to do and the enthusiasm I am witnessing in large-format is the sine qua non.

I hope that since Photokina is about to happen in Cologne that you will be attending and perhaps have a booth there. It is the largest show and audience in the photographic industry and it will be 2020 before there is another one.

[Degroto]

I hope that since Photokina is about to happen in Cologne that you will be attending and perhaps have a booth there. It is the largest show and audience in the photographic industry and it will be 2020 before there is another one.
Nope Photokina will take place next year in may. From this year on it will be a yearly event in the spring.
http://www.photokina.com/fair/photokina-2018/photokina-2018-2.php

[Bob Salomon]

Nope Photokina will take place next year in may. From this year on it will be a yearly event in the spring.
http://www.photokina.com/fair/photokina-2018/photokina-2018-2.php

Still no excuse for him not to be there next week! The contacts and information that he can gain there is invaluable!

[Degroto]

Still no excuse for him not to be there next week! The contacts and information that he can gain there is invaluable!

Well unless he has got more urgent matters to attend of course. Liken building a good and viable product. :p Just kidding. There is also such a thing as timing. Reading his article I would say now is not a good time to be at the Photokina.

[Bob Salomon]

Well unless he has got more urgent matters to attend of course. Liken building a good and viable product. :p Just kidding. There is also such a thing as timing. Reading his article I would say now is not a good time to be at the Photokina.

If he wants market input and support from manufacturers and the opportunity to make contact with the largest group of photo enthusiasts then this is the best use of his time in the next week!

[Degroto]

Market input was given the years New55 was available. And I think you can safely assume he has got his network already.

Since a lot of analog producers are not going to the photokina this year your expectation can be lowered a bit. I mean Foma will not be there this year. I cannot see that Polaroid Originals will be there this year. Also I am missing Linhof and Sinar from the line up at the Photokina to name a few. From the kind of film New55 is those would be parties worth talking to. They are not there. I suspect the Photokina 2019 will be much bigger than this one now. There are only 5 halls available whereas the previous years there were at least 8 to 10 halls of photofun during the Photokina. So again it is a question of timing and if I see the line up for this year it is less interesting than hopefully the line up for next years event. So time is better spent back home. There are more ways than going to a fair to network with people. :-)

[Bob Salomon]

Market input was given the years New55 was available. And I think you can safely assume he has got his network already.

Since a lot of analog producers are not going to the photokina this year your expectation can be lowered a bit. I mean Foma will not be there this year. I cannot see that Polaroid Originals will be there this year. Also I am missing Linhof and Sinar from the line up at the Photokina to name a few. From the kind of film New55 is those would be parties worth talking to. They are not there. I suspect the Photokina 2019 will be much bigger than this one now. There are only 5 halls available whereas the previous years there were at least 8 to 10 halls of photofun during the Photokina. So again it is a question of timing and if I see the line up for this year it is less interesting than hopefully the line up for next years event. So time is better spent back home. There are more ways than going to a fair to network with people. :-)

Since Sinar is part of Leica they probably are within their booth.

Having worked every
Photokina from 1984 to 2014 as well as every major US photo show since 1970 I might have a better feeling for what can be gained as a manufacturer and distributor of photo products.

For someone attempting what he is there is no one place that will give him more access to users, manufacturers and suppliers then Photokina, not to forget the world wide imaging press.

Yes, the show is much smaller then it had been in the past, especially since they redesigned the halls after the TV studio took over the lower halls. And yes, the show used to be much longer, but that is also a result in the downsizing of the entire industry.

And, if specific companies are not exhibiting they will still have management visiting. So an enterprising prospective manufacturer could always arrange meetings. Especially when their product they want to produce has failed in the recent past!

[Degroto]

Do you have contact with Sam? I think it is better to discuss this sort of things with him instead of me :) I'll bet al help is appreciated.

[swhiser]

Yes, Bob. Photokina is important and, more importantly, FUN! But I'll be busy for the rest of the year on the product and corporate matters.

[Degroto]

And fun I will have tomorrow at the Photokina :)

[Degroto]

Part two has been published. Production is becoming a reality day by day:

http://famousformat.com/2018/11/11/looking-for-a-ship-part-ii/?fbclid=IwAR3TvrJlJQW-yf5D8d4mqPbOr6Nrd9s07eHJOlB2WGa8pMhOrwg4vkjT5Z8

[Degroto]

And part three is published now. Lets hope a relaunch will happen next year:
http://famousformat.com/2018/12/18/looking-for-a-ship-part-iii/?fbclid=IwAR0JvaMCtIJLdBTeD1zKs7LazhVjJF2L7Jjy-_9BIFN6w1C7Hvrc6T6DDEk

[Degroto]

Alive and kicking i would say!
http://famousformat.com/2019/01/22/tied-to-the-mast-part-i/?fbclid=IwAR3m4rq9xRupfVwIbjvir-qdO6bqTaPnmlBNfA-oP15BfNbiYjVvB_Pw01o

[MIke Sherck]

The Midwest Large Format Asylum's annual print show is this coming Saturday. There's a couple of tables in the room where folks can set out stuff for sale and I've been putting a box of things together of things I think I can do without and reduce the clutter a bit.

I took the Polaroid holder out of the box. I'm a' keepin' it! Hope this works out.

Mike

[Duolab123]

I am amused by this. I think it's a great thing to hope to make this work. Again the only hope, look at Instax, and everything that Polaroid or EKCo did over the years. Some sort of mass market product needs to be figured out to support this kind of whimsy.
Good luck

[Degroto]

I am amused by this. I think it's a great thing to hope to make this work. Again the only hope, look at Instax, and everything that Polaroid or EKCo did over the years. Some sort of mass market product needs to be figured out to support this kind of whimsy.
Good luck

The goal is indeed to get a good product that can be upscaled with a consistent quality. Unlike the first runs of New55. The new improvements are steps toward a more stable product. :-)

[Degroto]

The Midwest Large Format Asylum's annual print show is this coming Saturday. There's a couple of tables in the room where folks can set out stuff for sale and I've been putting a box of things together of things I think I can do without and reduce the clutter a bit.

I took the Polaroid holder out of the box. I'm a' keepin' it! Hope this works out.

Mike

Good call. Don't toss it out. You will need it :)

[Oren Grad]

Another update has been posted:

http://famousformat.com/2019/06/04/tied-to-the-mast-part-ii-visualizing-peel-apart/