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View Full Version : Tools: Cheap and disposable vs. the best you can find/afford?



6x6TLL
16-Sep-2018, 12:15
I wanted to open up a can of worms I've seen both here and many other places (not even related to photography).

When someone enters a field, either as a trainee planning to start their career, or an established professional, or a hobbyist, there's always the question of what tools to get for the job.

Do you get something cheap and simple, figuring that as you learn and improve, you'll upgrade and replace your "starter set" with more professional level gear? Or do you get professional level tools, learn to take care of them, and grow into them as you learn and improve?

When I lecture university students (on non-photography related subjects), I am very clear on following the second path - despite the cost, it's better to cry once than fool oneself into thinking it's cheaper to buy cheap tools and upgrade later (in many cases ending up spending much more than what a good quality tool would have cost in the first place). That applies pretty clearly to engineering, to music (you get the best instrument you can afford), mechanics (cheap tools often make the work that much more difficult and time consuming), and many other fields. We don't recommend that people go out and buy the cheapest second hand computer they can find to see if they like computers and would like to learn programming :-p.

Now photography isn't engineering (although it seems to me there are an awful lot of gear-focused engineer types practicing photography), and there are many approaches and ways of working, as well as sub-fields (landscape, architecture, portraiture, etc), which is something a little bit different than in many other disciplines. I also recognize that the vast majority of the people here, everyone shooting LF, are amateurs (myself included), which in my opinion muddies the debate somewhat. I'm not sure amateurs need professional grade tools.

So I'd like to hear people's views on this.

For someone who's been shooting film for a while and knows their way around a light meter, developing B&W/C-41/E6 and using a darkroom, but is new to LF - there are used Intrepids, Wistas, Sinars and the like for a few hundred dollars, or things like Ebony's and Arca Swiss' for many thousands of dollars, and that's just for the camera, not the lenses or anything else. What would the arguments be to aim for one end of the scale vs the other?

Looking forward to learning more, and hearing peoples opinions and experience.

Thor

Bob Salomon
16-Sep-2018, 12:37
Having been the Linhof, Wista and, long ago, the Sinar distributor, always go with the best that you can afford.
There can be big differences on how large format cameras perform. Maximum extension, without accessories, ease of movements, amount of movements, type of movements, ease of setting up and taking down, range of accessories, parallisim or lack of parallaisim - especially if that changes while focusing or moving the standards, range of lenses, range of boards, etc., etc., etc..

LabRat
16-Sep-2018, 12:42
The difference is that many import hand tools will not be made well, or even work, and fall apart/break, where better tools just do the job...

The good news with cameras is about all were made well and completely usable to tackle the photo job at hand... So the cameras, lenses, etc were well made enough...

The problem is more about what age, use/abuse, storage environment , inital materials used, and was it made to withstand these factors...

Many are using gear over a hundred years old here, and with proper care, repair, restoration it keeps going...

There is very little bad gear as most of it has died over time, but as all of it is used and getting older, everything needs to be attended to...

Brand new gear from now might not age as well, so consider the future it will have to endure (I suspect the designers of today use the modern materials available without consideration of what age and conditions will do to it, such as some plastics, etc)...

Don't assume it has been thought through, make good informed choices...

Steve K

Peter Lewin
16-Sep-2018, 12:55
In general I'm in the "buy the best you can afford" school, because well-made equipment is more fun to use, and more likely to satisfy your requirements. However LF cameras are a bit different, since they are all compromises of a sort. Almost all LF cameras optimize one characteristic over another: they may have more movements, or longer/interchangeable bellows allowing for a greater variety of focal length lenses, but then they may be heavier or less "packable." Unless you know in advance which features mean the most to you, it is difficult to define "best."

My first LF camera was a Sinar F, the most transportable in the Sinar line, and one of their least expensive models. (Aside, Sinars are Swiss-made precision cameras, the equal of their Swiss cousins, the Arca-Swiss; you are incorrect to assume a quality difference between the two brands.) The Sinar excelled in flexibility: it was a monorail with generous movements everywhere, and part of the Sinar system which meant that with all parts interchangeable, it could be modified to do anything. But it was not the lightest of field cameras, and not very easy to pack compactly. An excellent camera, but not the best for the backpacking and field use I enjoyed most.

My second was a Wista wooden field (actually one of the early ZoneVI cameras with the strengthened base plate). It was light, easy to fold and put in a backpack, but limited in its movements and not as rigid as the Sinar. Neither of these was a show-stopper, but with a fixed bellows it was limited in terms of either very short lenses, or longer ones. I enjoyed using it, but was aware of its limitations.

Ultimately I traded both in and got a Canham DLC (upgraded to a ^2 model later) which is a metal folder with interchangeable bellows. It is lighter than the Sinar, heavier than the Wista, with flexibility in-between the two. It is my favored compromise, and handles both my Schneider 80mm and my Fujinon 300mm, my personal extremes. It is precision-made out of alloy, but is somewhat idiosyncratic in design; I love mine, but some dislike theirs.

I use my history to show how "best" and "highest quality" are somewhat independent. In terms of sheer engineering quality, I would place the Sinars, Arcas,and Linhofs at the top, but you still have all the trade-offs to work through. And you may well find that a Wista, a Canham, a Chamonix or other is the best fit for your needs. So to go full-circle (and end this post!) I would still go for the highest-quality enlarger you can afford, or tripod, or any other equipment where the design doesn't have to include the variety of compromises as LF cameras. But for cameras, there is no way that I'm aware of of knowing what you really want without some experience.

Leigh
16-Sep-2018, 13:31
I've always bought the best available. That includes other categories besides tools.

An excellent item will do what it's supposed to do every time.
If the results are not what you expect, the reason is obvious.

- Leigh

Fred L
16-Sep-2018, 13:36
Pay now, or pay later. I also belong to the school of buy the best you can afford. Whether it's power tools or cameras, it will, in the long run, imo, make a difference.

re:large format cameras, the Intrepid is a decent and very affordable camera, I have the 8x10. But I also have Zone VI and Canham cameras and for the heavy lifting, I'll always use those cameras first. While the Intrepid fills a very specific niche (lightweight packing camera for many), I don't believe any photographer would consider the Intrepid equal in any way to the Zone or Canham (other than it can be used to make photographs).

Christopher Barrett
16-Sep-2018, 13:53
When I was getting ready to start building my darkroom I bought a new track saw, MFT table, sander and dust vac from Festool. Great tools made the process really enjoyable. On the camera side, my 8x10, 4x5 & 6x9 are Arca Swiss, plus an Ebony 4x5 and a Chamonix 4x10. So yeah... I'm on board with the best equipment you can manage.

Bob Salomon
16-Sep-2018, 14:03
In general I'm in the "buy the best you can afford" school, because well-made equipment is more fun to use, and more likely to satisfy your requirements. However LF cameras are a bit different, since they are all compromises of a sort. Almost all LF cameras optimize one characteristic over another: they may have more movements, or longer/interchangeable bellows allowing for a greater variety of focal length lenses, but then they may be heavier or less "packable." Unless you know in advance which features mean the most to you, it is difficult to define "best."

My first LF camera was a Sinar F, the most transportable in the Sinar line, and one of their least expensive models. (Aside, Sinars are Swiss-made precision cameras, the equal of their Swiss cousins, the Arca-Swiss; you are incorrect to assume a quality difference between the two brands.) The Sinar excelled in flexibility: it was a monorail with generous movements everywhere, and part of the Sinar system which meant that with all parts interchangeable, it could be modified to do anything. But it was not the lightest of field cameras, and not very easy to pack compactly. An excellent camera, but not the best for the backpacking and field use I enjoyed most.

My second was a Wista wooden field (actually one of the early ZoneVI cameras with the strengthened base plate). It was light, easy to fold and put in a backpack, but limited in its movements and not as rigid as the Sinar. Neither of these was a show-stopper, but with a fixed bellows it was limited in terms of either very short lenses, or longer ones. I enjoyed using it, but was aware of its limitations.

Ultimately I traded both in and got a Canham DLC (upgraded to a ^2 model later) which is a metal folder with interchangeable bellows. It is lighter than the Sinar, heavier than the Wista, with flexibility in-between the two. It is my favored compromise, and handles both my Schneider 80mm and my Fujinon 300mm, my personal extremes. It is precision-made out of alloy, but is somewhat idiosyncratic in design; I love mine, but some dislike theirs.

I use my history to show how "best" and "highest quality" are somewhat independent. In terms of sheer engineering quality, I would place the Sinars, Arcas,and Linhofs at the top, but you still have all the trade-offs to work through. And you may well find that a Wista, a Canham, a Chamonix or other is the best fit for your needs. So to go full-circle (and end this post!) I would still go for the highest-quality enlarger you can afford, or tripod, or any other equipment where the design doesn't have to include the variety of compromises as LF cameras. But for cameras, there is no way that I'm aware of of knowing what you really want without some experience.

You do know that Arca has been French for several Years and that Sinaris now owned by Leica?

Peter Lewin
16-Sep-2018, 14:57
You do know that Arca has been French for several Years and that Sinaris now owned by Leica?
Bob, I'm aware that Sinar is owned by Leica, but thought the digital LF cameras (which is all I'm aware of them manufacturing any more) were still made in Switzerland? Same for Area-Swiss, the ownership may be French (I did not know that one) but is the manufacturing still done in Switzerland? And while you are keeping me up-to-date, is Broncolor (which used to be part of Sinar) still Swiss, and also owned by Leica?

Bob Salomon
16-Sep-2018, 15:15
Bob, I'm aware that Sinar is owned by Leica, but thought the digital LF cameras (which is all I'm aware of them manufacturing any more) were still made in Switzerland? Same for Area-Swiss, the ownership may be French (I did not know that one) but is the manufacturing still done in Switzerland? And while you are keeping me up-to-date, is Broncolor (which used to be part of Sinar) still Swiss, and also owned by Leica?

Peter, yes, Sinar is still made in Switzerland. Arca is made in France. Broncolor is still Swiss and was never part of Sinar.

Originally Sinar, in the U.S., was imported by Paillard who were in Lower Linden, NJ. Paillard also distributed other high end, primarily Swiss cameras, like Bolex, and Hermès office machines.
At the same time EPOI distributed Plaubel LF cameras.

Then EPOI became the Sinar distributor and dropped Plaubel. They also became the Broncolor distributor which had been distributed by Interstate, the Miranda distributor in the U.S.

They also had an informal arrangement with Foba and fairly quietly sold Foba.

As EPOI was about to close Sinar, Broncolor and Foba formed a new importing and distributing company in Edison, NJ called Sinar Bron as they both had an interest financially. So both factories owned the U.S. company. But Sinar and Bron and Foba were always separate companies. And that should also explain why Leica didn’t end up owning all 3 companies but only Sinar who had bounced around between a few companies, including their Swiss distributor, before Leica finally became the current owner.

Pfsor
16-Sep-2018, 15:24
Having been the Linhof, Wista and, long ago, the Sinar distributor, always go with the best that you can afford.
There can be big differences on how large format cameras perform. Maximum extension, without accessories, ease of movements, amount of movements, type of movements, ease of setting up and taking down, range of accessories, parallisim or lack of parallaisim - especially if that changes while focusing or moving the standards, range of lenses, range of boards, etc., etc., etc..

For a change I have to agree with Bob. I always buy the best and strive to be able to afford it. My Arca-Swiss and Technorama cameras has never been a source of complains, not even when I bought them for dear money. An excellent camera holds its value much better than a crappy one and what is more, gives you space to grow and learn as you go higher and higher.

Mark Sampson
16-Sep-2018, 15:43
"Fine tools contribute to fine work."
-Alexander Calder

Pere Casals
16-Sep-2018, 15:52
My most esteemed camera is a Sinar Norma 4x5. Before me it was owned by 2 Pro photographers. The first one used it intensively for 17 years for commercial photography until he retired. The second one used it also intensively for 19 years more making most of critical forensic photography in a 3 million people city until he died.

And that camera it's still like new. A rookie amateur like me is not wearing it much, compared to my predecesors, but +50 years after it was manufactured it's still a refined piece of gear that can survive an additional number of hard shooters in a row, delivering nice negatives that were 300 mpix worth since the 1960s. Some would not belive it...

Ted R
16-Sep-2018, 16:44
In my opinion there is no simple single rule to this question because the use for tools varies over a wide range from things that will be used only once to things that will be used everyday. The thing that will be used once must not break and must do the job but wear is not an issue, so the inexpensive version may be appropriate. Things used everyday will wear. Sometimes they can be "sharpened" or otherwise refurbished, and here the wise choice is often the well made tool for which replacement parts are available. For both reasons it is unlikely to be the cheapest choice.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Sep-2018, 17:02
For a change I have to agree with Bob. I always buy the best and strive to be able to afford it.

Do you have photographs you wish to make again but you cannot because they require a 'better' camera?

Pfsor
16-Sep-2018, 17:07
Do you have photographs you wish to make again but you cannot because they require a 'better' camera?

Funny you ask - I used to wish to take pictures I could not, because at that time I did not have a good camera for it. It's not the case any more - I built cameras DIY way for just such cases.

Ulophot
16-Sep-2018, 17:25
You have received some great advice from others with far more LF experience than I. I include my own experience here as a reference, in case it may also be of help.

In 1973, I fortuitously acquired a Rolls Royce of 35mm rangefinders, a Leica M4, in excellent condition. I'm still using it, which is great, because today, I couldn't afford even a decent used one. About 15 years ago, I got a loan to buy a used 645 Mamiya, because I really needed it for the commercial portraiture I was doing at the time, requiring large prints without much grain. I still have that, too. About two years ago, getting back into LF, I found it increasingly difficult and unwieldy to haul my monorail 4x5 around, and was moving into location portraiture, so I sold a whole bunch of other equipment in order to afford a Tachihara, which someone on this forum was selling for about $475, a price I couldn't pass up, even though I really wanted a Shenhao. I had to get it serviced, and it works perfectly well for the work for which I need it. I wish it were a bit more solid -feeling and had another feature or two, but the design and materials have a good reputation. I have no doubt that it will last far into the future, doing what it is meant to do.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Sep-2018, 17:29
Funny you ask - I used to wish to take pictures I could not, because at that time I did not have a good camera for it. It's not the case any more - I built cameras DIY way for just such cases.

Please show us the cameras and outcomes.

Pfsor
16-Sep-2018, 17:33
Please show us the cameras and outcomes.

No interest in it, sorry.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Sep-2018, 17:35
No interest in it, sorry.

If you have no interest in sharing your builds/inventions and outcomes then we should have no interest in your claims: a good argument for the ignore filter.

Leszek Vogt
16-Sep-2018, 18:14
Much like chisels (maybe not the best parallel), the more you spend, the better metal you acquire and as a result less sharpening is needed; therefore, reducing the level of productivity and frustration. not to mention ease of use. Indeed, good "R scale" metal rating tends to raise the prices accordingly. Although similar things can be done with both, more exotic woods require better chisels, since the cheap ones tend to dull quickly. Usually, you get what you pay for. Yet, most of us have to pay attention to personal economics, as well.

Les

ic-racer
16-Sep-2018, 18:21
there are used Intrepids, Wistas, Sinars and the like for a few hundred dollars, or things like Ebony's and Arca Swiss' for many thousands of dollars

I don't know. Ten years ago, maybe, but today it seems like the price spread for LF gear is pretty narrow. In fact because of the great time involved and the fixed cost of fresh paper, chemicals and film, the final cost of a fine print is going to be about the same for everyone; cheapskate, student or lawyer.

Jim Noel
16-Sep-2018, 18:31
I have always believed i should obtain the best tools I could afford whether in photography, woodworking, golf or flyfishing. Have they made me better? Maybe not, but they have certainly made the experiences greater.

Jim Galli
16-Sep-2018, 19:33
For some of us, besides the obvious task of making images, or perhaps even art, as it were, there is a secondary function of a certain romance of using tools that were considered the best by the artists that used them historically. Some of the machines that are considered to be the best, classic machines, legendary tools, and have proved themselves over and over for an extended time, at least for me, have a difficult to define without sounding corny, it's just a pleasure to be using them. It's a double pleasure. It's a pleasure when you hang beautiful negatives up to dry, but it's also a pleasure to have used classic machines that are still considered by some to be the best. Often large sums of money have little to do with what I'm talking about.

dsphotog
16-Sep-2018, 21:10
Regarding LF gear, I get great satisfaction using older cameras, a Crown Graphic or an Ansco, can make an image as good as a Linhof, or Deardorff....
Spend your dough on the best glass, that levels the playing field.

Jody_S
16-Sep-2018, 21:19
I'm not sure amateurs need professional grade tools.

Not to be contrary, but I don't think it matters anymore. We're in a global race to the bottom in manufacturing, because who wants to make tools that last several lifetimes when you can make more money making garbage and having repeat buyers? Almost no one makes good tools anymore (I know some members here will vocally disagree), they're mostly all made by a few companies in factories in Malaysia or Vietnam or wherever they can pay people $0.20 a day, and they just put different names on them. If you buy a Snap-On instead of a Kobalt, you're paying 5-10 times as much for a marginally better quality of tool likely from the same factory - possibly better steel, finish and qc, but you're mostly just paying extra for the name and bragging rights. That might translate into pride of ownership and taking better care of the tool, but that's what's going to make it last longer than the Kobalt or Craftsman. 30 or 40 years ago, it did make a difference, but even then 50% of the price was for the name.

In LF? The lens tests tell us the big name lenses perform nearly as well as each other, differences are more due to their being misused and abused since manufacture than any difference in their initial quality. Same goes for cameras. I would rather buy a well-maintained cheaper camera than an Ebony that was left out in the rain and stored in a plastic bag in someone's basement. A tool is a tool; my personal philosophy is to invest the smallest amount I can to get a decent tool to do the job at hand. If I can buy a Fujinon-W lens for 1/2 the price of a Nikkor, and differences in performance are due to condition and past abuse, why would I insist on buying the Nikkor rather than looking for a good Fujinon? And given that I'm more interested in image aesthetics than line pairs/mm, the whole question of lens quality is moot anyway because I'm looking for rendering, not accuracy in reproduction. Shutters and light meters are about the only LF gear that I would pay extra for, because of the need to reduce variation in process from elements beyond my control.

I tend to buy my LF gear exactly like my tools: I shop for bargains on used pro gear if the tool is in good condition. Pro gear partly for resale value if I decide I don't need it anymore, because someone else paid the depreciation, and partly because I don't have to worry that the tool is capable of doing the job. I'll never buy just for the name or because I want it to last 50 years. I won't last 50 years.

John Kasaian
16-Sep-2018, 21:40
I trained as a farrier and started with a set of Diamonds for cold shoeing, but it had already been the established custom that when you're trained in traditional hot shoeing you'd make your own tools on the forge in order to prove your mettle. Of course you still need a cross peen as well as tongs and a punch to build those tools. I assume you'd borrow those from the Master.

Fixing cars, my first tools were Sears Craftsman back when the brand meant something (and I still have the set.)

When I worked on aircraft I splurged and bought a set of Snap-Ons (definitely Pro quality) Of course they got promptly stolen!

With photo gear I find there is a different dynamic. I have a lot of used Pro quality gear (Pro quality as in 1940's Pro quality) because it was affordable but even more because I enjoy using the stuff.

Using good quality tools, even old ones, is a joy,

Jim Jones
17-Sep-2018, 07:03
I began photography in the 1940s with a folding Kodak with meniscus lens. It was quite limited. In 1951 I upgraded to a Mercury II half frame, a cleverly designed and reliable camera with little versatility, but a good introduction to 35mm photography. Based on this experience, next came a Minolta rf with a fine 45mm lens, but an unreliable body. A Nicca with a f/1.4 lens opened up new opportunities in the days of ASA 10 Kodachrome. Finally, based on what some experts were using, I invested in a new Leica IIIF with the lowly Elmar 50mm. I might still be using this little beauty if it hadn't got bashed in. Not even Leicas can survive some treatment. The last 35mm film camera was a Leica M4 in 1970. After much hard use it was still working fine a few years ago when digital became more practical for me. SLR photography followed a similar train: Praktica FX3, Miranda, Nikon F, DSLR. Each of these cameras was a valuable learning experience and a foundation for well-informed upgrading. Large Format gear followed a similar path. A 5x7 B&J monorail still suits me better for some photography than more elegant cameras that cost many hundreds or more. An Anniversary Speed Graphic made from 1940 to 1946 is still the most practical body for some applications. It's a rare craftsman who knows now what tools he will most need several decades later.

Corran
17-Sep-2018, 08:19
I recently bought a really nice pair of metal cutters. It was about $25. The cheap $5 tools would dull immediately or just not cut through anything larger than 14 or 16 gauge wire. If I was a professional using those tools in the field, on a job, I'd look like a fool. That's a hand tool though.

When it comes to cameras, anyone well-versed in how the camera operates can get the same photo with a $200 Intrepid as with a $10000 Linhof. They are fundamentally the same basic light-tight box. One could extol the Linhof for having better build quality, more precision, etc., but with careful use the Intrepid could perform similarly for most people shooting popular LF subjects like landscapes. And the cheap Intrepid is fantastically light and therefore most would be able to carry it further and make more images with it than the Linhof.

There's certainly a time and place for the Linhof, but IMO anyone who says that the Linhof, or Arca-Swiss, or Ebony cameras take "better pictures" than the Intrepid is deluding themselves, or defending a purchase. This comparison is not the same as a "tool" like a screwdriver or wire cutters, with different quality of materials, durability, etc.

It reminds me of someone who insisted no one should buy used film holders, implying that they all leak or have problems, and instead should buy brand-new ones that cost 20x more. Despite such silly claims, many of us have shot with used, second-hand film holders just fine for years. In fact, I have one and only one film holder I bought "new," and it leaked light right out of the box. The cost of the tool does not necessarily correlate with the performance.

The most important thing IMO is just to get to work and make photographs with whatever tool you think is right, and stop all the hand-wringing about cameras.

jim10219
17-Sep-2018, 09:06
I've got a garage full of cheap and expensive tools. I think price is a bad way to look at it. Sometimes, something is more expensive because it's better made. Sometimes something is more expensive because it has a better name on it. And sometimes something is more expensive because it's overly complicated in production or design, and actually functions worse than the cheaper option. I prefer to look more closely at the tools I buy, and not worry so much about the price or brand name.

For instance, I have a bunch of multimeters. Some expensive, some cheap. They both have their uses, though I use the cheap ones 95% of the time. I rarely need the precision of the more expensive ones, and the $10 DMM's can get lost or destroyed without making me upset. Just this weekend I was working on a circuit was expecting to read around 800 volts at a point on the board and wound up reading 1,200 volts before my meter fried. Had I fried my Fluke or Keithley, I would have been pissed! But I fried my Harbor Freight $10 meter (with a 1,000 volt max DC input), so I threw it away and grabbed a high voltage probe and another cheap meter.

I've gone through tons of jewelers screwdrivers. It doesn't matter what brand. None of them last long. Snap-on, Kobalt, Stanley. They all go about 1-3 years. And the lifetime warranties are great, but a broken tool still sets you back half a day or more while you're trying to get your tool replaced. Same with soldering irons. Eventually the tip holder gets so corroded that the tips can't be replaced.

And sometimes I may not even matter. Has anyone looked at drill presses recently? Do enough research and you'll see that most brands are just rebadging the same drill presses from the same factories with different options and color schemes. Look at Grizzly's 8" drill press and Wen's 8" drill press and tell me they're not the same! Maybe Grizzly's higher end drill presses are better made, but maybe they're just priced like they are. Honestly, I wouldn't buy one without being able to get a good look at how it's made.

So I usually just try to observe the quality of tool first before I pass judgement on it's value. I agree that buying the cheapest one available is usually a false economy. But so is buying the most expensive. The middle of the road usually provides the best bang for the buck. But even then, there are no guarantees. You just can't buy blindly based on brand reputation or price. As the old saying goes, "buyer beware". And that's why it's best to either know what you're buying before you buy it, or enlist the help of someone who knows a lot about those tools to help you.

Drew Wiley
17-Sep-2018, 09:47
Well, I have to admit up front that I recently retired from a role setting up one of the most successful tool distributorships in the Western half of the US, both in terms of sales, profit margin, and most importantly, the positive effect it had on the success of the clients themselves; and it was completely centered around very high quality product, mostly German. People willing to invest in the best up front left the toy addicts in the dust right off the bat due to far higher productivity. Good gear pays for itself fast. But I'm speaking of pros, who depend on tools to make a living. The exceptions would include poorly monitored jobsites where things get stolen on a daily basis, or where idiots instantly break things; but hiring those types would reflect badly on the judgment of the person in charge. With cameras, there a just so many good ones out there that it's almost the opposite kind of problem. You can overthink and overspend without any significant advantage. Better to consider system versatility and maintenance issues relative to your personal applications.

Jim Jones
17-Sep-2018, 11:05
I'm with Jim10219. For long hard service, quality tools, equipment, and are cost effective. For occasional casual use, I sometimes use Harbor Freight stuff. Cost cutting should be done only by people who understand the tools that productive people should be using. In 1960 President Kennedy lured Robert McNamara from Ford to become his Secretary of Defense. McNamara was concerned about military spending. I was a Navy electronics repairman at the time. Gradually our fine Techtronics oscilloscopes were replaced by crap provided by low bidders. I've owned my own Techtronics and a Hewlett-Packard scope, and they were tops. I've also owned three lesser scopes that fell far short. I use one of those now, made in England under Techtronics license. It's like using some of the miscalled "Vice-Grip" pliers that are not made in Dewitt, Nebr. I also occasionally use a Stanley plane made perhaps in the 1870s. The wood body is nearly worn beyond hope and the blade suffers from rust, but it is still useable. Compare that with today's Stanley items.

Jac@stafford.net
17-Sep-2018, 13:30
When I was less than half the age I am now I was a home building framer. Do you know anyone who breaks his main tool, a hammer in my case, at least once a month? And I bought the best.

Then the nail gun came upon the scene, and I left.

Pfsor
17-Sep-2018, 14:22
When I was less than half the age I am now I was a home building framer. Do you know anyone who breaks his main tool, a hammer in my case, at least once a month? And I bought the best.

Then the nail gun came upon the scene, and I left.

That's strange. Yesterday you wrote (Lounge) -"I spent fifty years in computers. I'm retired now". Did you hammer the keyboard of computers??

Peter Lewin
17-Sep-2018, 14:31
I’m still not convinced that the analogy between tools and cameras is the appropriate one. The design of a box wrench or a hammer is pretty well defined, the differences are size and quality. With view cameras, as I tried to show in my early post, there are many design differences (and compromises) in addition to quality, which must be taken into consideration in making a choice.

mdarnton
17-Sep-2018, 14:37
In my field, I buy the best, but the best is often certainly not the most expensive.

Oren Grad
17-Sep-2018, 15:02
I’m still not convinced that the analogy between tools and cameras is the appropriate one. The design of a box wrench or a hammer is pretty well defined, the differences are size and quality. With view cameras, as I tried to show in my early post, there are many design differences (and compromises) in addition to quality, which must be taken into consideration in making a choice.

This. Often, the "best" camera for a given usage isn't the most expensive, or the most overbuilt, or the most prestigious, or the most whatever. And judgment of "best for purpose" typically involves complicated and subjective tradeoffs among competing or even conflicting attributes, not simple situations where all the options offer exactly what's needed, with varying cost and construction quality but all else equal.

Randy
17-Sep-2018, 15:02
Best? I don't even know what that means. There are photographers here on this forum (Austin for instance) who could shoot more creative images with an empty cigar box, some expired film, and a roll of black tape, than I could shoot with the most expensive, well made 4X5 camera and lens(es).

Pere Casals
17-Sep-2018, 15:45
Well, in general the way in what we spend money should optimize the value of what we obtain globally. This is well documented in economics literature.

It doesn't make sense to buy a too expensive camera is later we cannot buy film or glass.

So at the end it depends a bit on the budget we have and market situation.

Jac@stafford.net
17-Sep-2018, 15:50
That's strange. Yesterday you wrote (Lounge) -"I spent fifty years in computers. I'm retired now". Did you hammer the keyboard of computers??

Pfsor, I worked two jobs simultaneously; one daily hours on construction and 7PM to 3AM as a computer programmer. That was possible because I did not require a lot of sleep. There is a story in that fact.

Pfsor
17-Sep-2018, 15:56
Pfsor, I worked two jobs simultaneously; one daily hours on construction and 7PM to 3AM as a computer programmer. That was possible because I did not require a lot of sleep. There is a story in that fact.

Now I understand better why you were breaking your tools during your day time job..:)

Jac@stafford.net
17-Sep-2018, 16:03
Now I understand better why you were breaking your tools during your day time job..:)

In that time I was a physical monster. I'm an old man today who can hardly walk. I hope you fare better. Peace and health to you.

Pfsor
17-Sep-2018, 16:05
In that time I was a physical monster. I'm an old man today who can hardly walk. I hope you fare better. Peace and health to you.

At least you can now sleep sweetly the whole night (I hope)! Cheers!

Leszek Vogt
17-Sep-2018, 16:23
Jac, ya should have used a bigger hammer.

Kiddn aside, one gets tools what one thinks are good for their use ("best" ?). I bought a hammer (Made in Germany) that even has a built in magnet to hold a nail for a strike....handy (gimmick) while holding onto a ladder at the same time. Never used it for that. Hmmm, 38yrs later and hundreds of projects, bla bla later....and this thing is still functional. But, I also bought, more recently, a Vaughn hammer made here in US....and was able to do two remodels. Anyway, they are different....one is for framing...and both hammers survived.

I was going to add something about table saws, but I'll leave it for another time.

As I mentioned before, much depends on personal economics and one can research what works "best" for them. With the age of internet, it's not difficult.

Les

Jody_S
17-Sep-2018, 17:02
For some of us, besides the obvious task of making images, or perhaps even art, as it were, there is a secondary function of a certain romance of using tools that were considered the best by the artists that used them historically. Some of the machines that are considered to be the best, classic machines, legendary tools, and have proved themselves over and over for an extended time, at least for me, have a difficult to define without sounding corny, it's just a pleasure to be using them. It's a double pleasure. It's a pleasure when you hang beautiful negatives up to dry, but it's also a pleasure to have used classic machines that are still considered by some to be the best. Often large sums of money have little to do with what I'm talking about.

There is another whole class of tools, the antiques, that people take pride in owning, restoring and using. I've had the pleasure of owning and using such tools as a Deckel pantograph and a Boley watchmaker's lathe. Did I need them? No. Would I have paid a fair market price for either? No. But I enjoyed using both for the short time I had them. Currently looking for a small-ish shaper (http://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/altas-shaper/). Do I need it? Of course not.

6x6TLL
18-Sep-2018, 07:56
Thank you to everyone for replying and weighing in. A lot of excellent information and sound advice here. I'm not sure I'm any wiser, but it's definitely been educational.

I completely agree with many of you as far as tools go. I too have a stack of Festool gear, Facom and Snap-on in the garage, a set of Lie-Nielsen hand planes, etc., and expect it will outlast me and be of value to my offspring. I'm not rich by any means, but prefer paying for something once (assuming it's something I use regularly or is important in my day to day) rather than multiple times. Sometimes you can't help it, of course.

When I put "tools" in the subject line, I was specifically referring to cameras, although it could apply to enlargers, light meters, and other items as well.

For a lot of things, the quality of the gear (IMHO) definitely makes a difference. For other things, like this, I think the influence is less clear. As Randy pointed out, a lot of it depends on the photographer. Some people can get amazing images with any gear, while others struggle to get anything usable even with the best kit money can buy. That said, it's nice to have quality tools so you can focus on the actual work, and have gear that allows you to realize your vision.

I see people making wonderful, compelling images with a very wide range of gear. I have a Graphlex (inherited), which I'm not very fond of, and spent a day recently using an Arca Swiss F-line, it was amazing, but very pricey. I plan to rent a setup from Samy's for a weekend (I'm not sure what they have, Cambo perhaps?) and try working on my own with a camera to get more experience using it in practice. I've seen many people recommend Sinar as a very solid camera, I'll look into them (F and Norma I think were the ones mentioned as being usable in the field).

I'm still considering if I need LF, or why, and what exactly I want to use it for, but sometimes you just have to jump in and figure it out as you go. I've been shooting MF for 20+ years, and mostly bring it along on trips, walks hikes in case I find something interesting to photograph, although I do take trips specifically to take pictures (downtown at night, mountains, sunsets at the beach, wildflower blooms, portraits, etc). My MF rig is around 12-15kg (from memory), I would hope for a light weight setup with a few lenses that I can carry along in much the same way. From what I've seen and read so far, it seems like a monorail would be a more flexible and adaptable setup than a folder/field camera for what I want. Through some people I know the topic quickly settled on Arca as the best solution, although I'm not 100% convinced.

There's always the question of "is it good enough"? Good enough for what?

I spoke with an Arca reseller recently, who suggested I forget about an Arca and instead buy a used Wista or similar, and come back in a year or two when I had more experience using the system. Because "that's how everyone has learned LF, it's a proven method". He may be right. I could find a used Intrepid, Shen Hao or Chamonix for very little on eBay, I'm sure any of these would be a fine camera to learn on. Although I've never had any problem learning new things on professional level gear, and tend to take hobbies to a professional level anyway.

So I'm still on the fence about how I want to approach this - buy a used camera for a few hundred $ along with a nice lens or two and play with it for a while before selling it and getting something else, or going directly to something like the Arca Swiss F-line, which will be an awful lot of money, but probably do everything I ever need and more. There is no right answer, but I appreciate the input, advice and experience of all the contributors here.

Corran
18-Sep-2018, 08:20
I spoke with an Arca reseller recently, who suggested I forget about an Arca and instead buy a used Wista or similar, and come back in a year or two when I had more experience using the system. Because "that's how everyone has learned LF, it's a proven method". He may be right. I could find a used Intrepid, Shen Hao or Chamonix for very little on eBay, I'm sure any of these would be a fine camera to learn on. Although I've never had any problem learning new things on professional level gear, and tend to take hobbies to a professional level anyway.

There's nothing *un*professional about a Chamonix or similar. I've easily pushed 1,000 sheets of film through my Chamonix 45n1, and it's my camera of choice for hiking due to it's weight. I have a Linhof Master Technika, and while I occasionally take it out on the trail, it's not very common (and I don't hike very far). Some people might prefer to shoot their Linhof, or Arca, or whatever over a Chamonix, it's just personal choice. What's more important is having a camera that does what you need it to do, and a good lens.

From your description of your MF rig, my Chamonix, a few lenses, CF tripod, and 12-18 sheets of film weighs way less. You're right, you just "have to jump in and figure it out as you go." Everyone has their own opinion, their own subject choices, etc. I bought a few different cameras used before ending up with the Chamonix. And LF cameras can be resold for what you paid for them, or close to it, if you buy used - so there's very little money tied up in them if you resell them, as opposed to digital gear especially.

MrFujicaman
18-Sep-2018, 08:43
You BUY the cheapo Harbor Freight Multimeter? I've got at least 5 of those floating around the house that I got with the "free with any purchase" coupons! Like you, I use them when there's a chance it might get fried. I've given them away to people who wanted to borrow a DMM rather than my Craftsman getting killed.




I've got a garage full of cheap and expensive tools. I think price is a bad way to look at it. Sometimes, something is more expensive because it's better made. Sometimes something is more expensive because it has a better name on it. And sometimes something is more expensive because it's overly complicated in production or design, and actually functions worse than the cheaper option. I prefer to look more closely at the tools I buy, and not worry so much about the price or brand name.

For instance, I have a bunch of multimeters. Some expensive, some cheap. They both have their uses, though I use the cheap ones 95% of the time. I rarely need the precision of the more expensive ones, and the $10 DMM's can get lost or destroyed without making me upset. Just this weekend I was working on a circuit was expecting to read around 800 volts at a point on the board and wound up reading 1,200 volts before my meter fried. Had I fried my Fluke or Keithley, I would have been pissed! But I fried my Harbor Freight $10 meter (with a 1,000 volt max DC input), so I threw it away and grabbed a high voltage probe and another cheap meter.

I've gone through tons of jewelers screwdrivers. It doesn't matter what brand. None of them last long. Snap-on, Kobalt, Stanley. They all go about 1-3 years. And the lifetime warranties are great, but a broken tool still sets you back half a day or more while you're trying to get your tool replaced. Same with soldering irons. Eventually the tip holder gets so corroded that the tips can't be replaced.

And sometimes I may not even matter. Has anyone looked at drill presses recently? Do enough research and you'll see that most brands are just rebadging the same drill presses from the same factories with different options and color schemes. Look at Grizzly's 8" drill press and Wen's 8" drill press and tell me they're not the same! Maybe Grizzly's higher end drill presses are better made, but maybe they're just priced like they are. Honestly, I wouldn't buy one without being able to get a good look at how it's made.

So I usually just try to observe the quality of tool first before I pass judgement on it's value. I agree that buying the cheapest one available is usually a false economy. But so is buying the most expensive. The middle of the road usually provides the best bang for the buck. But even then, there are no guarantees. You just can't buy blindly based on brand reputation or price. As the old saying goes, "buyer beware". And that's why it's best to either know what you're buying before you buy it, or enlist the help of someone who knows a lot about those tools to help you.

Drew Wiley
18-Sep-2018, 10:20
I was having lunch yesterday with an old friend who now makes scale architectural models from wood using mostly lovely Japanese hand tools, but wants to sell off his construction gear. By golly, there was one of those high-end wheeled compressors I designed nearly forty years ago to efficiently run on dicey circuits. They don't often turn up for sale, and generally go for more now than they did new. Around here, builders generally require carpenters to own their own tools. Anyone who shows up with something like DeWalt is likely to get fired on the spot, with the remark, "how are you going to get any work done with that thing?" If it was Harbor Freight, they'd probably get lynched with an extension cord - not the cord on the tool itself - that would probably break trying to hang a mouse! Reminds me of certain times I've attended weddings, and the "official photographer" showed up with a nearly toy camera. Sure wasn't the case with marriages in my family. Between my brother and me, we had Technika and Sinar 4x5's, Rollei and Pentax MF SLR's, plus 35mm, basically lifetime quality gear. A couple of the 35mm cameras finally wore out, and my heavily-used Sinar equip has had certain components replaced, and other components reincarnated into other Sinar configurations. But it just keeps chuggin' along.

jim10219
18-Sep-2018, 11:38
In a more camera related example, I almost bought a Canon 85/1.4 L until I got my hands on a Samyang 85/1.4. The bokeh was considerably smoother and the sharpness and contrast was close enough not to bother me. Plus, I prefer manual focus and don't have any issue with manual exposure settings. The autofocus Canon wasn't as easy to focus manually. That's an example where a $230 lens out performed a lens that costs almost 7x's as much, at least for my needs and tastes.

And that's not the only example I have. I also prefer my Pentax K 50/1.4, Super Takumar 85/1.8 over any of the more recent and expensive offerings. I also like my pre-ai Nikkor 55/3.5 micro lens more than most of the other macro lenses for Nikon that I've tried, at least for DSLR scanning film.

And I prefer my Soligor Digital Spot Sensor over the more well respected Pentax Digital Spot Meter because it's just as effective, and uses easy to find 9v batteries.

I quickly sold off my Ilford 500h Multigrade enlarger head. But perhaps that's not a fair comparison because that head made me realize how much I prefer condenser heads over diffuser heads.

The list goes on and on. Though for large format, I do tend to gravitate towards the higher end stuff. Though I do like some old lenses for their characteristic look, and my favorite 4x5 is my Graflex Speed Graphic (small, rugged, focal plane shutter, hand hold-able, and a rangefinder make it incredibly versatile when large movements aren't required).

So you can't accurately judge a product by it's price. That would be too easy.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2018, 12:44
Jac, ya should have used a bigger hammer.
Kiddn aside, [...]

Thanks for that, Les.

I'm reminded of when as a kid I hung around a Harley motorcycle shop and the mechanic shouted, 'Jac gimmie a wrench!", I said, "What kind?" and he said, "A big one! I'm just gonna use it as a hammer!"

Pfsor
18-Sep-2018, 12:54
Thanks for that, Les.

I'm reminded of when as a kid I hung around a Harley motorcycle shop and the mechanic shouted, 'Jac gimmie a wrench!", I said, "What kind?" and he said, "A big one! I'm just gonna use it as a hammer!"

I start to see a pattern - where you're from, people liked breaking their tools...:)

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2018, 12:58
The most cost-effective LF camera I ever bought, many years ago, was a Printex 4x5 with rangefinder for $35. Didn't care then about movements. It served me well.

Then with irrational enthusiasm I bought four more, in the end leaving me one that works, the first. I named it Karma.

Speaking of naming things, my wife named my beautiful '58 VW bug (http://www.digoliardi.net/58bug.jpg), Flattery because it got me nowhere.

Pfsor
18-Sep-2018, 13:35
Printex was a sound camera. So was Brand camera, from the West coast, if I remember well the name. The VW bug I hated, you didn't have any sound vision when going backwards but I met people who loved it like their baby. Go, figure.

Jim Jones
18-Sep-2018, 15:58
Brand cameras were much like the New-Vue that was my first view camera. It was a cheap learning tool. I liked my VW Super-Bug because the only repairs I ever had to farm out were line-boring the crankshaft main journals and having a garage replace the valve stem guides rather than making the tools for doing it myself.

Pfsor
18-Sep-2018, 16:32
Brand cameras was a very good concept that was supposed to be followed with other models and was not. I wonder if our Richter got his inspiration from that camera.
I did and built very sturdy and light-weighed cameras for my purposes of an original construction altogether.
But the VW you won't make me to like it, I hated even the sound of it. :)

Jac@stafford.net
18-Sep-2018, 17:11
[...] I did and built very sturdy and light-weighed cameras for my purposes of an original construction altogether.

I look forward to pictures of your invention. Show me yours and I'll show you mine.

John Kasaian
18-Sep-2018, 19:58
I was fond of my '66 Beetle. Sadly, it suffered a Viking's funeral when the battery shorted out on the rear seat springs.

Bob Salomon
18-Sep-2018, 20:17
I was fond of my '66 Beetle. Sadly, it suffered a Viking's funeral when the battery shorted out on the rear seat springs.

My first Beetle had the split rear window and the never working pop out finger turn signals, wish I still had it! Next was a 59 Bug then, in college, a white Karman Ghai convertible, looked fast, it wasn’t! Wish I still have that as well. After 10 years, or so, the 911 VW wagon, glad that one is gone! Then a series of Passats, culminating with the CC, beautiful car, but a pain to get into. Now back to a Passat.

In case anyone is curious, I have cousins that own a VW distributorship in CT. But only got the 911 from them.

Peter De Smidt
18-Sep-2018, 21:09
Sure, if money is unlimited, then buy the best. Remember the 1% rule, though. Getting that last bit of quality is very difficult and super expensive. Think audio gear. Getting a good, usable camera for little money isn't that hard, and using it will allow one to get proficient enough to make informed choices, whether about continuing with LF photography, or getting a camera better suited to one's needs. Even a Crown Graphic in good shape can be used to take terrific pictures. Remember, too, that Edward Weston didn't do too bad with what we'd all consider to be a crappy lens. You know, the one he bought in Mexico. I've taken some of my favorite 4x5 images with a cheap 203 Ektar, and I really like Ilex Paragons, even though they aren't trendy or expensive.

Jim Jones
19-Sep-2018, 07:12
Peter, that Ektar 203 is my all-time favorite lens. Of course there are great improvements over it, and I have some, but good enough is good enough, and the Ektar is certainly that.

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2018, 07:37
Printex was a sound camera. So was Brand camera, from the West coast, if I remember well the name.

A particular advantage of the Printex is that it is impervious to infrared.

Vaughn
19-Sep-2018, 12:34
I got my 71 SuperBeetle in 1975 with 55,000 on it. About 11 or so years later I gave it to my sister with 210,000 on it...and she drove it for many years. Same engine (valve job at 70,000, and a valve job & engine rebuild at 170,000.) Great tool for getting me around the SW looking for places to photograph. I would not have been able to afford the gas for a 4WD.

There are very few bad LF cameras and lenses. I love my Gowland PocketView 4x5. Two and a half pounds with the 150mm on it. Far better tool than the Linhofs and Sinars and so forth on the long backpacks...at my age, anyway!

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2018, 13:27
[...] I love my Gowland PocketView 4x5. Two and a half pounds with the 150mm on it. Far better tool than the Linhofs and Sinars and so forth on the long backpacks...at my age, anyway!

Weight? It ain't about us, Vaughn, but a conspiracy of the universe to make objects more susceptible to gravity over time. :)

6x6TLL
19-Sep-2018, 14:14
Sure, if money is unlimited, then buy the best. Remember the 1% rule, though. Getting that last bit of quality is very difficult and super expensive. Think audio gear. Getting a good, usable camera for little money isn't that hard, and using it will allow one to get proficient enough to make informed choices, whether about continuing with LF photography, or getting a camera better suited to one's needs. Even a Crown Graphic in good shape can be used to take terrific pictures. Remember, too, that Edward Weston didn't do too bad with what we'd all consider to be a crappy lens. You know, the one he bought in Mexico. I've taken some of my favorite 4x5 images with a cheap 203 Ektar, and I really like Ilex Paragons, even though they aren't trendy or expensive.

Thanks Peter.

So what should I be looking for to get 90%-95%, since the last few % will cost a fortune?

What alternatives are there to Arca Swiss that are light, portable, precise, flexible, modular that you would recommend I look at?

Peter De Smidt
19-Sep-2018, 15:29
That's a big list of requirements. There are monorails, like a Sinar F2, or those from Cambo, Toyo, Horseman, Linhof.....that would be close, but they will unlikely be as compact, and they'll probably be a bit heavier. A Technikardan is also an option. Or if you give up some flexibility for more sturdiness. In that case a Toyo AX (or AR), Linhof Technika 4, Wista, Walker would be good. Personally, my main field camera is a Toyo AX. A Crown Graphic would be even cheaper, but it'll have less movements. Note that it's not that common to use extreme movements with landscape photography. If a wooden camera is ok, then one from Chamonix, Shen Hao, Ebony, Wisner, Zone VI....could all work well.

Vaughn
19-Sep-2018, 15:36
Les, if that was a Vaughn hammer, send it to me...must be mine if I have my name on it. If it is a Vaughan hammer, keep it. I won't use a hammer by a company that can't spell.

Vaughn


Weight? It ain't about us, Vaughn, but a conspiracy of the universe to make objects more susceptible to gravity over time. :)

Must be why it is getting harder to haul my old ass around...

Drew Wiley
19-Sep-2018, 15:52
VW bugs could get thru snowed-over roads almost as good as 4WD, but obviously couldn't handle going over big rocks or thru streams. Vaughn hammers are the only ones still made with decent hickory handles. Some of those very expensive hatchet-handle titanium framing hammers break rather fast. The very best hammers are made in Japan and cost a bundle, but don't resemble our domestic framing hammers. I'm the guy that started the trend of nailguns on the West Coast. They were originally huge clumsy things restricted to manufacturing. One of my first customers was Bill Graham Presents for their outdoor stages and audience seating. I hated dealing with them because they were all constantly screaming and cussing at each other. But they were efficient at building those Day on the Green structures. Doubt anyone would be capable of feeling anything if one of those structures did collapse anyway, because everyone arrived in some kind of VW with tie-dyed curtains, and ... .... .... !

Bob Salomon
19-Sep-2018, 16:26
VW bugs could get thru snowed-over roads almost as good as 4WD, but obviously couldn't handle going over big rocks or thru streams. Vaughn hammers are the only ones still made with decent hickory handles. Some of those very expensive hatchet-handle titanium framing hammers break rather fast. The very best hammers are made in Japan and cost a bundle, but don't resemble our domestic framing hammers. I'm the guy that started the trend of nailguns on the West Coast. They were originally huge clumsy things restricted to manufacturing. One of my first customers was Bill Graham Presents for their outdoor stages and audience seating. I hated dealing with them because they were all constantly screaming and cussing at each other. But they were efficient at building those Day on the Green structures. Doubt anyone would be capable of feeling anything if one of those structures did collapse anyway, because everyone arrived in some kind of VW with tie-dyed curtains, and ... .... .... !

In high school we lived on the top of a rather steep, and curving street with one particular curve toward the bottom also was very steep.

One day my brother and I were driving to school in my 49 Chevy convertible while my father was driving behind me in our bug. Watching in the rear view mirror when the bug slid on the iced over curve and ditched itself in the wooded side of the road.
Not quite as controllable as 4 wheel drive!

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2018, 16:49
VW bugs could get thru snowed-over roads almost as good as 4WD [...]

Skinny tires were the trick.

Aside: Is it true that old Drew Wiley was the first person to wear a coon-skin cap?

Tin Can
19-Sep-2018, 17:09
Skinny tires were the trick.

Aside: Is it true that old Drew Wiley was the first person to wear a coon-skin hat?

Santa and my brother racing cutdown Bus and Bug.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4772/40778955311_975a57d985_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/258uNGp)Tom and Santa (https://flic.kr/p/258uNGp) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Jac@stafford.net
19-Sep-2018, 17:12
You have had a great life, Randy Moe.

Drew Wiley
19-Sep-2018, 17:17
Doubt that, Jac. My coonskin hat is stashed away in a cedar chest somewhere. It has a detachable tail with a little metal clasp that probably was not part of the raccoon's own original attire, though they are clever critters with hands and might have had a metal-working shop hidden somewhere yet to be discovered. I've never tried pulling off the tail of a live raccoon. I've seen dogs try it, and regret it. The first VW in the tiny town down the road belonged to the music teacher - the same one who gave me dirty looks until he died of old age. But one Halloween a bunch of teenagers set up some boards across the creek, carried the Bug across, and left it upside down. He must have given them dirty looks too. Music teachers seem to do that.

Tin Can
19-Sep-2018, 17:21
You have had a great life, Randy Moe.

The next Spring I flat towed the Bus based one behind a 1972 Mazda Pickup. Stopped in Texarkana in the night and found it was now 3 wheeled. The front left wheel had come off in the night. The cutdown brake drum never touched the pavemont, so I towed it to Palm Desert, where it lived for many years. Perfect in the Mohave.

Years later brother told me he forgot to tighten the lug nut. Sure hope nobody died.

The Mazda was also great in the desert.

Leszek Vogt
19-Sep-2018, 18:00
Les, if that was a Vaughn hammer, send it to me...must be mine if I have my name on it. If it is a Vaughan hammer, keep it. I won't use a hammer by a company that can't spell.

Vaughn

Looks like I'm keeping it. Yet, I had no idea that you had monopoly on that name of yours, excuuuuse me :>). It's a v. good framing hammer and so far it never failed me. There is slight patina of rust + lousy light, so it's my mistake/typo.

Drew, I'm v. well versed with the hammers from Japan....although accessible to anyone, most often they are used in finer woodworking circles. In my early days I bought couple small hammers (from China) and they lasted only few years. Back to Vaughan 23oz hammer, initially I thought it was tungsten steel, but it's actually made out of high carbon steel. Besides the hickory handle, the front is heat treated (tempered) to withstand abuse and mine has 3 wedges. Wooohoo.

Alrightie, enough of diversions and back to camera talk.

Les

tonyowen
20-Sep-2018, 01:14
Skinny tires were the trick.?

When we lived in Kleinburg, Ontario, the house was on a school bus run so the drive got blocked when snow was ploughed off the road. However, our VW Beetle was able to 'charge over the snow mass' without problems. If I remember the underside of the car had a plate that enabled it to skid over the sow and not dig in. The major problem with the beetles of that time was the heater - fuelled from the gas tank and very very poor heat output. However, the car would start in cold weather 30 below and was ideal for wintery rural roads.

On the subject of tools/equipment - the crux of the issue is in four words:- Needs, Wants, Afford, Justify. An item may be wanted, even though not needed. Its cost could be afforded even though running cost/household account did justify the expenditure.

regards

Tony

Jac@stafford.net
20-Sep-2018, 11:05
When we lived in Kleinburg, Ontario, the house was on a school bus run so the drive got blocked when snow was ploughed off the road. However, our VW Beetle was able to 'charge over the snow mass' without problems. If I remember the underside of the car had a plate that enabled it to skid over the sow and not dig in. The major problem with the beetles of that time was the heater - fuelled from the gas tank and very very poor heat output. However, the car would start in cold weather 30 below and was ideal for wintery rural roads.


The underside of the Beetle was flat (https://i2.wp.com/1967beetle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/r0010175.jpg?w=1024). So was the underside of the engine.

In the early Seventies every Winter a friend and I would buy Beetles from the rich local college students when their heater stopped working. The fix was $7 in parts and twenty minutes work. Then we would sell them at a State university up the road.

Richard Rau
21-Sep-2018, 02:35
Wow, did this thread start to run off the road. Seems like some of it should be nailed up in the Lounge. I do appreciate the analogies though.

This is going to seem fairly obvious to most here, but intended for newbies if they're scanning through this thread.
Cost, while certainly an important consideration, was never the driving force in my equipment acquisitions. Function was always the No. 1 consideration. Why do some photographers prefer Hasses over Mamiya or Rollies? Why do some folks like Sinar, or Linhofs, or Arca Swiss while others prefer field cameras such as Deardorff, Canham, Tachihara, or Wista? Is weight an issue? Do the lighter weight cameras such as Intrepid, Chamonix or a Ritter feel right when you use them? Questions I always ask myself when considering a camera purchase. How does it feel in your hands while using it? Are the controls easy to use, are they smooth in operation, was the camera designed with ergonomics in mind? Do the bellows allow for the longest lenses you intend to use? Are the camera movements what you expect to need? Does the camera fit the subject matter you intend to use it for? Do they set up quickly, and break down efficiently when packing up. Are you fumbling with focus and movement controls while looking through the ground glass, or does everything fall into place and become second nature? If your technique isn't honed, or you are just starting out, my advice is to buy something that you can afford and upgrade as you become more proficient. "Disposable" (resale) in this case may seem more practical. If your tools are going to support your livelihood, and you do it professionally, assuming your proficiency and experience are up to par, then obtain the very best tools you can afford that works best for YOU! You want to make sure your tools feel right and work for you, not against you, If you can, try before you buy. it will make the process a lot more enjoyable, no matter what your endeavor is.

MrFujicaman
21-Sep-2018, 17:33
In one of my Ansel Adams books, there's a picture of him using a Calumet C400....if it's good enough for Ansel, it's certainly good enough for me.

Bob Salomon
21-Sep-2018, 17:44
In one of my Ansel Adams books, there's a picture of him using a Calumet C400....if it's good enough for Ansel, it's certainly good enough for me.

You will also see him with Hasselblads. However, he didn’t own any. They were a loan that Hasselblad USA auctioned off after he died.

He also was given a Horseman that was used for their PR.

What you see doesn’t mean that that was his choice!

David Lindquist
22-Sep-2018, 11:24
In one of my Ansel Adams books, there's a picture of him using a Calumet C400....if it's good enough for Ansel, it's certainly good enough for me.

I've wondered if his using the C400 was in the context of a workshop. Maybe having less concern if a student were to knock it over in the course of of being walked through the use of a view camera.

For a period Adams used a 5X7 Sinar Norma (with a 4X5 reducing back). He used this when making the photographs for the book Fiat Lux, text by Nancy Newhall, published in 1968 on the occasion of the centennial of the University of California. In my notes from a 1972 workshop I have the comment from him that he had switched to an Arca Swiss; that he preferred the center tilts to the base tilts of the Sinar.

Then when he appears on the cover of the September 3, 1979 issue of Time magazine, any dedicated equipment freak can identify his camera as a 4X5 Horseman. I'm sure Calumet, Horseman distributor then, was tickled pink. Furthermore the lens is his Linhof Select 121mm Super Angulon. You can make out "Technika" engraved in red on the bezel.

David

AuditorOne
22-Sep-2018, 14:59
If I am working professionally and my livelihood relies on my tools doing the job consistently and quickly I buy what works while still having a reasonable return on my investment.

As an amateur I buy whatever I want, but I keep and use what feels right for the way I work.

As an amateur I keep and use my Intrepid because I am still in good enough shape to use it once I pack it to the top of the hill. We won't discuss the money I have wasted before settling on the Intrepid. Not sure how long it will last but it is certainly holding up quite well so far.

It also just so happens that the Intrepid works wonderfully with my Symmar 150, which is one of my most used lenses. Needless to say I paid a lot more for the Symmar than the Intrepid even though both were purchased new.

Interestingly I mount the Intrepid on top of a carbon fiber Gitzo 3541XLS tripod which cost me far more then everything else in the backpack, including the backpack itself. Funny, I have never once regretted spending that money.

But all these tools work well together and they do exactly what I want without any fuss. :D

As a woodworker I own a marvelous and very expensive Lie Neilsen #4 bench plane that is a beauty to behold. It works wonderfully. But when I am putting a fine, smooth finish on a table top I always reach for my old 1930s Stanley Sweetheart #3. The Lie Nielsen will certainly do the job but the Stanley just fits my hands perfectly and does exactly what I want with no fuss. I should probably sell the Lie Nelsen but it is so pretty to look at I just can't bring myself to put it up for sale. :D

I am a firm believer in owning the best tools that I can afford. Interestingly though 'best" can often be somewhat subjective. For some it may be the most expensive, but I find that the best for me is what fits my way of working. It may or may not turn out to be the most expensive.

6x6TLL
27-Nov-2018, 13:19
Based on a lot of research, trying things out, as well as following my own aesthetic and intuition, I finally bought a 4x5 camera.

I've had a number of eBay and other searches running (KEH, Adorama, here), looking for one of several of the cameras mentioned in this and other threads. As fate would have it, the exact camera I wanted most showed up on eBay, and the seller was willing to negotiate, so the final price was in fact very attractive and quite fair.

So now I'm familiarizing myself with an Arca-Swiss F-metric with orbix. It's an incredible camera, and I haven't even exposed a sheet of film yet. Practicing focusing and using movements to manipulate plane of focus and perspective control to get familiar enough that I feel comfortable using it in the field. Will also practice loading film holders.

Really looking forward to getting outside and shooting a few sheets!

I wouldn't have been able to find the right camera or even know what to look for without the help of the fine people here.

Thanks again for all the advice and suggestions!

Rod Klukas
1-Dec-2018, 09:46
Bob,
I just returned from 2 weeks at the Arca-Swiss factory in France. The tools issue is problem as the really good tools are hard to find. Many of the screwdrivers for instance now are only offered with plastic handles and are still somewhat expensive. Finding the great tools from the 1970-80s or earlier, is a real trial.
I hope you are well.
Rod

Bob Salomon
1-Dec-2018, 09:48
Bob,
I just returned from 2 weeks at the Arca-Swiss factory in France. The tools issue is problem as the really good tools are hard to find. Many of the screwdrivers for instance now are only offered with plastic handles and are still somewhat expensive. Finding the great tools from the 1970-80s or earlier, is a real trial.
I hope you are well.
Rod

Which Bob?

Jac@stafford.net
1-Dec-2018, 10:54
Bob,
I just returned from 2 weeks at the Arca-Swiss factory in France. The tools issue is problem as the really good tools are hard to find. Many of the screwdrivers for instance now are only offered with plastic handles and are still somewhat expensive. Finding the great tools from the 1970-80s or earlier, is a real trial.
I hope you are well.
Rod

I have two old, old-school machinist friends who boot-strapped their careers by making their own tools. What they can show are museums of over fifty years each of precious work.

Sfroza
1-Dec-2018, 14:21
I was a toolmaker in aerospace for forty years. What I had in my toolbox were a assortment of grades. There were common grade tools that I replaced a few times during my career. There were common tools that I replaced with premium grade if the common grade failed or I needed to have ultimate dependability and couldn't have failure. I had tools that were lower grade, the tools that I could modify. I could grind, weld or bend without feeling guilty that I created a one time use tool. And my precision tools, my gold standard, all treated with special care most purchased and some my design and faberication. I had duplicated some for convenience, or to have different qualities for different applications. The user needs to access the application and make a informed decision. IMHO.

Michael

Tin Can
1-Dec-2018, 15:54
Fully agree Michael. As a professional automotive engine tester for a Tier One supplier to the Big 3, I often had to make or modify tools to work on advanced engines where no tools, manuals or factory support existed.

Heat, bend, hack, saw, grind and weld a tool for the job at hand. Actually my favorite thing. As night foreman with a crew of 5 we always surprised day shift with our very out of the box results.

Our team, 3 shifts, innovated ways to accelerate engine life testing. We spent millions on deep chill capacity and built the first system of the kind. We taught Ford. We also built all control and data collection systems in house. Everything was in one large building. R&D, production, sales and warehouse.

Then the Lab became obsolete and unwanted in a suburb. The factory still churns.

R&D spent 10 years designing our Shanghai replacement. I asked to be transfered to China, but was discarded as too old, 10 years ago.

Now I enjoy early retirement!

FTW

Drew Wiley
1-Dec-2018, 16:51
Most of the people I knew who were offered severance pay if they trained their Chinese replacements went the extra mile and put in voluntary overtime -
namely sabotaging the dies and numerical control settings to the machinery also due to be sent overseas.

Tin Can
1-Dec-2018, 16:58
Not me

Drew Wiley
1-Dec-2018, 17:27
Made little difference. Once the mfg was overseas, they cut all kinds of corners anyway and things were never the same. One of the biggest problems was non-standardization of replacement parts. That was the case for the kinds of equipment I distributed; but it also gives auto repairmen hell. I never referred to it as outsourcing. That's a deceptive term. It's actually bait and switch. I watched one local mfg of metal lathes go bust because he imported half his machine components, things didn't work right, and he couldn't figure out why because he insisted on using cheapo Chinese digital calipers that weren't accurate. He cancelled his order with me from Starrett, saved $200 dollars on an instrument, and lost 2 million bucks before declaring bankruptcy. Some people never learn.

Jac@stafford.net
1-Dec-2018, 18:43
Heat, bend, hack, saw, grind and weld a tool for the job at hand. Actually my favorite thing. As night foreman with a crew of 5 we always surprised day shift with our very out of the box results.


And the screwdriver tip. For example a 1/2" wrench with a #2 screwdriver jammed against a nut becomes a 3/8" wrench. I learned from being a Gopher in a Harley shop as a kid. "Hey, Gopher! Gimmie a wrench!" "What kind?", I asked. "A big 'un. Ahm jess gonna use it for a hammer!"

Tin Can
1-Dec-2018, 19:19
Jac, I have never done the screwdriver/wrench trick. Really!

However, when I was 19 home alone working on my '67 Matchless G15 a car drove up. 2 guys and a girl got out. Left the car in the street. As all 3 approached the open garage, I picked up my biggest wrench. Perhaps 1-7/8" and stood up. They noticed the wrench and said, 'We just want to be friends.' They were older and bigger, I was very thin.

I quietly said, 'I don't need anymore friends'.

That stopped them and they left. They were dangerous.

This bike, that garage, different day. That's Bonnie and Sam the dog.
A 1967 G15CSR Matchless I had just restored. New 2 part paint, seat cover, and engine overhaul.
I never should have sold that bike.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4898/45226331655_5e70272f73_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bUuLJT)11-G15 CSR Oil Change (https://flic.kr/p/2bUuLJT) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr




And the screwdriver tip. For example a 1/2" wrench with a #2 screwdriver jammed against a nut becomes a 3/8" wrench. I learned from being a Gopher in a Harley shop as a kid. "Hey, Gopher! Gimmie a wrench!" "What kind?", I asked. "A big one. I'm gonna use it for a hammer!"

Corran
1-Dec-2018, 19:32
Very different profession, but I miss some of the very high-quality tools I used to use repairing musical instruments. Very small screwdrivers for screws so small they don't even have a standard size measurement - they were all custom from the factory. There was only a couple tool manufacturers that catered to the specific market. My old boss was a founding member of the national association, back 40+ years ago, and taught me just about everything. He kinda wanted to leave the business to me but I wasn't really interested. It was a good summer job that I did for about 7 years, and put me through college.

Anyway, he had all the best tools you could get. It was nice always having exactly the right tool for the job. As a going-away present, he bought me a set of tools specifically for fixing flutes, which I still use on occasion. Bought a destroyed flute at a flea market a few months ago for $5 and fixed it up, ready to be used again. Just like old cameras, the classic band instruments made in the USA before everything got sent overseas were meant to last and could be repaired pretty much indefinitely. I regularly refurbed flutes, clarinets, and other instruments that were decades older than me. You had to have the right tools for the job though.

seall
2-Dec-2018, 05:25
To the OP,

Because you have mentioned a specific make of low cost camera I feel it is worth saying that if you have access to basic tools and a little time to research the appropriate bits on this forum it may well be worth your while buying a low price donor camera or a set of bellows and ground glass to fit a camera you build yourself - perhaps you may be able to build it faster than the time you wait for a pre-built camera to arrive. A basic camera with limited movements is not a all that complicated a project and it is a very rewarding item to produce. Spend the money you may have used buying an expensive camera on glass.

Tin Can
2-Dec-2018, 07:02
When I sold Snap-On Tools I had a very unusual customer.

He made French Horns from scratch and demanded the best tools for every job.

One member here makes violins from scratch and repairs Stradivarius.

He once told me, hold this. He handed me a violin.

Then he said how did it feel to hold a million dollars...

Very glad he told me after he got it back in his hands!


Very different profession, but I miss some of the very high-quality tools I used to use repairing musical instruments. Very small screwdrivers for screws so small they don't even have a standard size measurement - they were all custom from the factory. There was only a couple tool manufacturers that catered to the specific market. My old boss was a founding member of the national association, back 40+ years ago, and taught me just about everything. He kinda wanted to leave the business to me but I wasn't really interested. It was a good summer job that I did for about 7 years, and put me through college.

Anyway, he had all the best tools you could get. It was nice always having exactly the right tool for the job. As a going-away present, he bought me a set of tools specifically for fixing flutes, which I still use on occasion. Bought a destroyed flute at a flea market a few months ago for $5 and fixed it up, ready to be used again. Just like old cameras, the classic band instruments made in the USA before everything got sent overseas were meant to last and could be repaired pretty much indefinitely. I regularly refurbed flutes, clarinets, and other instruments that were decades older than me. You had to have the right tools for the job though.

John Kasaian
2-Dec-2018, 08:27
The best tools aren't necessary the most expensive. Swap meets, auctions, estate sales etc... can yield very high quality older tools for a pittance and providing they aren't damaged or plumb worn out can be a joy to work with.
I rescued a Disston hand saw, a real Disston built before HK Porter took over, from a swap meet for $5. It is a first class tool for sure!

Corran
2-Dec-2018, 08:54
Randy, one of my college friends wanted to make french horns for a living, and apprenticed with one of the big-name custom makers. Maybe the same one you sold tools to. Making instruments is on a whole other level! I just refurbed 'em. I've taken apart and deep cleaned many a french horn though - pain in the ass.

One of the forum members who makes violins is up here in the Atlanta area IIRC. Haven't seen him post lately though.

Tin Can
2-Dec-2018, 09:39
I'm not much of a woodworker, but I made one of these from plans. Whitehall Jr.™
(https://gaboats.com/boats/whitehalljr.html)
I never used it as it is so light, but I like it hanging on my wall.

I wish I had youth and skills to make a Viking ship with an axe. Like this. (https://regia.org/research/ships/Ships1.htm)

It would be handy for my funeral pyre.

Moe is a town in Norway.

Peter De Smidt
2-Dec-2018, 10:32
Jac, I have never done the screwdriver/wrench trick. Really!

However, when I was 19 home alone working on my '67 Matchless G15 a car drove up. 2 guys and a girl got out. Left the car in the street. As all 3 approached the open garage, I picked up my biggest wrench. Perhaps 1-7/8" and stood up. They noticed the wrench and said, 'We just want to be friends.' They were older and bigger, I was very thin.

I quietly said, 'I don't need anymore friends'.

That stopped them and they left. They were dangerous.

This bike, that garage, different day. That's Bonnie and Sam the dog.
A 1967 G15CSR Matchless I had just restored. New 2 part paint, seat cover, and engine overhaul.
I never should have sold that bike.



That's a terrific photo, Randy!

Tin Can
2-Dec-2018, 11:21
That's a terrific photo, Randy!


I don't recall who shot it. They were very shaky!

1971. I had hair, a dog, a pretty girl and a nice bike. It was my first restoration.

I miss them all!

David Karp
2-Dec-2018, 11:43
If I can afford it, I try to purchase what I really want instead of settling. That is not always possible. Patience helps. For example, after waiting for a LONG time, I picked up a used ARCA Swiss Discovery that was upgraded with the telescoping rail for a very low price. That gave me everything I really wanted/needed in an ARCA monorail at a bargain price.

When purchasing lenses, I try to benchmark what would be ideal. For example, I used a 90mm f/8 single coated Fujinon for years. It was light, very low priced, and a good performing lens. I upgraded to my benchmark, a 90mm f/8 Nikkor, when one came along at a very reasonable price. I benchmarked a 200mm Nikkor M for backpacking, but that lens is pretty expensive. I chose a 210mm f/6.1 Caltar Pro (which is a Schneider Xenar) - Same lens design, Copal No 1 instead of No 0, and single coated instead of multicoated. That lens was super nice. I did not feel the need to upgrade. When the shutter went bad right before a trip, I picked up a 210mm f/5.6 Fujinon L for about the same price as a shutter service. Again, no need to upgrade. Mostly, I have Fujinons. They are usually available at reasonable prices and perform very well.

6x6TLL
3-Dec-2018, 09:03
This is what I ended up doing. Waited and found an Arca Swiss metric with orbix in 4x5, and waited some more and found an APO-Sironar-S to use with it.

Great suggestion about benchmarking lenses.

Grandpa Ron
3-Dec-2018, 21:31
It should be obvious there is no correct answer.

I have all sorts of hobby items I purchased and never used because "you can't do without this". I also have a number of beginner models items I wore out and no longer use and a few I use quite often.

You move up to the tools you really need.

LabRat
3-Dec-2018, 22:30
Then there's the "You don't find it, it finds you" situation...

Steve K

fotopfw
4-Dec-2018, 03:26
I've worked professionally from about 1983. I only bought what could earn itself back in jobs. And sold when I did not need it anymore, like the 2.8/400mm from Canon. Shot weddings on medium format (Mamiya C330 and RB67) and had at least two of everything.

In LF, it's a different story. I do that for fun (though I have sold some work). So here my choice was: what do I like to work with? I ended up with a Linhof Technika (almost as old as I am) and Sinar P2 (4x5" and 8x10").

Age is unimportant, camera's/lenses and people can be very old and still function well.

John Kasaian
4-Dec-2018, 07:43
Then there's the "You don't find it, it finds you" situation...

Steve K

For sure!

Jim Andrada
7-Dec-2018, 01:06
Well, my first LF camera was a brand new 5 x 7 Linhof Kardan Bi I bought in 1970. It's a joy to use. I've never regretted the $ I spent for it. Likewise my Felder 4 in one sliding table sytem - all 2 tons of it. I've built boats with old Rockwell Delta machines and there's no comparison to working with the Felder - I never have to fight the tool to make it do what I want.

Which is the big issue I usually have with lower end gear - with 75 years of picture taking under my belt I have no doubt that I can do good work with anything that winds up in my hands, but it took a lot of work and practice to get to that point. But when you're new at something it's hard to compensate for the idiosyncrasies of less than excllent tools of any kind.

invisibleflash
7-Dec-2018, 08:34
OP, I like the best tools available, but my budget wont allow for it. So I use what I can afford that will get the job done in a fashion that will still be acceptable. If it produces results that I am ashamed of signing my name to, then I will pass on it.

John Layton
7-Dec-2018, 08:43
I like to think that whatever, whenever, and however I screw up (or am otherwise unsatisfied), that I only have myself to blame, and not my tools. Whenever this is not the case...that's when I get a better tool!

scheinfluger_77
7-Dec-2018, 15:08
... - I never have to fight the tool to make it do what I want. ...


Jim this is probably the most concise, true statement about this subject and it alone is reason enough to go for the best quality item you can afford. You know a bad tool when you make an inward ‘huff’ or ‘sigh’ before stepping up to use it.

Jim Andrada
7-Dec-2018, 15:16
Whenever this is not the case...that's when I get a better tool!

I feel the same way, but when one is just starting out they might not have the experience to know whether it's them or the tool. And it's no fun fighting balky tools. I had a 12" Delta bandsaw for years - and I built a boat with it. But a few times the workpiece was heavy and awkward enough to stall the motor and push the saw over. I "graduated" to an industrial machine with 24"wheels and a weight of close to 1k pounds. Guess what? Never again had to worry about pushing it over, even when cutting 4"- 5" thick oak. Same story with the table saw.

Sort of the same story with cameras IMHO.

Drew Wiley
7-Dec-2018, 16:26
I've got rid of all but my good tools. I can still screw up, and no tool is perfect. But I won't use anything like a router or jointer or power saw when I'm tired and stupid. Sanding is OK. Nor will I handle irreplaceable glass like my registration equipment uses if I'm too tired. I once dropped a Kern Dagor lens when I was tired with sweaty hands. The front coating got scratched. Luckily, these lenses had cult status by then, and I actually sold it damaged for more than I originally paid for it new.

John Earley
12-Dec-2018, 18:32
I do agree that the best tool that one can acquire will be better to work with than inferior ones but I think that using the right tool for the task is just as important if not more so. As a woodworker and machinist I sometimes use tools that are not tier one by any means but they are the right tool for the job and work far better than some of the high dollar tools that I do own that don't fit the need as well. As someone mentioned, I have less guilt about making non-reversible modifications to some less expensive tools than I would to my top grade ones. That includes photo equipment too.

Jim Jones
13-Dec-2018, 07:53
"A Vice-Grip is not the right tool for anything at all, but it is the best wrong tool for thousands of tasks."

Jac@stafford.net
13-Dec-2018, 07:57
"A Vice-Grip is not the right tool for anything at all, but it is the best wrong tool for thousands of tasks."

Very good. However, I think the vise-grip has proven its place in welding.

dodphotography
13-Dec-2018, 08:03
Always go with the best you can afford, always. Otherwise, you end up upgrading and crying twice. Buy once, cry once.

Tin Can
13-Dec-2018, 08:27
Yes, and the many variations of Vise Grip specific to welding.

Which are perhaps emulations of DIY Vise Grip modifications.

Stick Arc Welding (https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/five-steps-to-improving-your-stick-welding-technique) is as fun as LF, if you don't have to make a living at it.


Very good. However, I think the vise-grip has proven its place in welding.

Havoc
13-Dec-2018, 12:30
I have at times bought the cheapest just because I knew before I would alter it to do the job I wanted to do. I do not care taking up an angle grinder to a cheap tool if I know I will be able to have it do the job I want to do.

You never can have enough vise grips and hammers. :D

John Layton
13-Dec-2018, 13:37
I have a set of ultra-cheap Chinese brad point bits that I picked up from a big lots store a few years back...which I have grown to consider irreplaceable - for the very fact that most of these bits are off measure by very small fractions...which is often exactly what I need for that "just a wee bit bigger" hole. Just sayin!

Drew Wiley
13-Dec-2018, 14:25
Try to find even a Vise-Grip that works correctly anymore. And as for Chinese brad point bits? Ya get about four holes out of them as long as the wood as is soft as butter. I've got Austrian ones that will do 700 holes in aluminum and still be sharp. Pick em up by the wrong end and your finger will be bleeding, as if it were a razor blade. At that rate, the Euro ones are an outright bargain. Same with insert screwdriver bits. Sure, they cost three or four times more, but they last three or four hundred times longer. And semi-stripped bits aren't good for screws either, especially if you have to get them back out. Ironically, even if your have precisely sized dowel bits, now the dowels sold in most
stores are of dimensionally unstable ramin wood, rather than maple, so are rarely correct diameter. You have to sand them, or else shop around for true hardwood dowels. Just sayin' ... it doesn't affect me personally because I do
my joinery with a Domino machine. But I otherwise use high-quality brad point bits for the very clean entry and exit holes they provide. And there again, there's a huge distinction, with the good Austrian ones drilling very quickly,
and the Cheapo Depot versions taking forever.

Roger Thoms
13-Dec-2018, 19:16
"A Vice-Grip is not the right tool for anything at all, but it is the best wrong tool for thousands of tasks."

Give me a vice grip and a crescent wrench and I’m a happy camper. :)

Roger

Drew Wiley
13-Dec-2018, 20:11
I used to kid the guys who worked in the big door and window shop at work that there was absolutely nothing they were incapable of making given a chainsaw, double-bit axe, and spiked ball - plus their notion of extra-fine belt sander abrasive : 16-grit.

Drew Bedo
15-Dec-2018, 06:22
I have a Caltar II N, a lens rebadged from Rodenstock , that I bought as a used item. That count as "cheap"?

My personel EDC multi-tool is a leatherman Wave (not cheap). It rides oln my belt whenever I am not riding in an airliner. But there are several back-up multi tools that came from god-knows -where in the side pockets of different shooting kits . . .and they WERE cheap.

Bought a few cable releases off e-Bay that cost more than I wanted to pay, but were cheaply made (should have known better).

Most of my LF gear was previously owned. There are a few premium camera bags from LowePro and Pelican that were "thrown-in" when I bought the gear that was in them. Other premium name brand bags came from Pawn Shops or Goodwill for under $10 each. Thatts cheap on several levels, I'd say.

Alan Klein
15-Dec-2018, 07:26
Buy cheap, pay twice. Always buy one up from where you thought you'd be satisfied. If you think you'd be happy with a 65" TV, get a 75" TV.

Tin Can
15-Dec-2018, 07:53
Very true, I have often upgraded my purchase after getting it home.

My latest example is my first ever purchase of a new washer and dryer. Usually they came with the home.

Really glad the store agreed to upsell me to USA made Speed Queen delivering and installing twice.


Buy cheap, pay twice. Always buy one up from where you thought you'd be satisfied. If you think you'd be happy with a 65" TV, get a 75" TV.

Alan Gales
15-Dec-2018, 10:43
I was a toolmaker in aerospace for forty years. What I had in my toolbox were a assortment of grades. There were common grade tools that I replaced a few times during my career. There were common tools that I replaced with premium grade if the common grade failed or I needed to have ultimate dependability and couldn't have failure. I had tools that were lower grade, the tools that I could modify. I could grind, weld or bend without feeling guilty that I created a one time use tool. And my precision tools, my gold standard, all treated with special care most purchased and some my design and faberication. I had duplicated some for convenience, or to have different qualities for different applications. The user needs to access the application and make a informed decision. IMHO.

Michael

Spoken like a true professional, Michael! ;)

I used to be a Union Sheet Metal Worker. Some of my sheet metal tools were the best but I used them everyday and they performed well and paid for themselves. Wiss made better tin snips back then but Craftsman were cheaper and worked just as well for me. They did get dull faster but I lived near Sears so I'd just return them and get a new pair for free. You couldn't do that with Wiss. Sears eventually got wise and took the Craftsman name off their snips. ;) You learn when you need the best and when something less expensive can work. I also had a couple modified or homemade tools for certain jobs.

A homeowner usually doesn't need the best but there are some bad tools out there that can get you hurt. They may be cheap but the emergency room visits sure aren't! Unfortunately, I've seen guys get hurt with bad tools.


With photography, I also think it depends. The best camera and lens are no good if supported by a tripod that shakes. I do own a cheap Chinese tool for fixing lenses with dented threads so you can use filters on them. It works great.

Paul Ron
15-Dec-2018, 10:57
for basic tools for camera repair or for that matter any jobs... buy the best as well as tye right tools for the job. good tools will make the job go much easier. ever fight with a stuborn screw?... junk drivers or wrong size!

cheap screw drivers, and wrong size drivers, can make you miserable. striped screw heads n rounded nuts are mostly caused by cheap tools, not cheap hardware. i see so many diy jobs come into my shop not because the diyer didnt have the skills... but because his cheap tools couldnt handel the basics.

for special tools, i make my own using quality materials. if i need to buy it, ill buy the quality tool over low price.

Alan Gales
15-Dec-2018, 13:31
An uncle of mine used to say that if you are going to get the best in something then get it in anything that keeps you off the ground. Good tires, good shoes, good mattress. Wise advice! ;)

Alan Gales
15-Dec-2018, 13:35
Buy cheap, pay twice. Always buy one up from where you thought you'd be satisfied. If you think you'd be happy with a 65" TV, get a 75" TV.


Hey, Alan. I own a pair of your electrician's pliers. Great tools!


https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Electrical-Hand-Tools-Electrical-Pliers-Linesman/Klein-Tools/N-5yc1vZbm95Z3xg

Leszek Vogt
16-Dec-2018, 01:10
Totally agree with you, Alan G. Got Klein wire cutters and after hooking up all the receptacles in the house + garage, they are still working great.

John Kasaian
16-Dec-2018, 07:45
I just picked up a pair of handsaws, a vintage Disston D8 and a circa 1935 Keystone (Disston) K-6 Challenger 10 pt. at an estate sale for $7.
Very high quality saws at a nano-fraction of the price a new "quality" saw.

Jody_S
16-Dec-2018, 08:03
Hey, Alan. I own a pair of your electrician's pliers. Great tools!


https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Electrical-Hand-Tools-Electrical-Pliers-Linesman/Klein-Tools/N-5yc1vZbm95Z3xg

I have worn out 3 pairs of Klein linesman pliers and 6-7 Klein side cutters. I have a drawer in the garage full of worn-out Klein tools. Had I gone with no-name tools, I would need a much larger receptacle for the worn-out ones.

Tin Can
16-Dec-2018, 09:28
Snap-On Tools once offered Side Cutter #87 Vacuum Grip resharpening. I have 3 and see they are now collectible. http://www.collectingsnapon.com/index.php?page=pliers/DiagonalCutters85-86

I have 3 of most hand tools as I used to maintain 3 identical toolboxes in 3 locations. Easier to use...


















I really prefer the bare metal tools with Black Oxide finish to chrome as the are far less slippery.

Willie
16-Dec-2018, 10:23
No problem with fine equipment. If it works for you it can only help.
But, would a Sinar 8x10 have improved the images of Morley Baer over the old Ansco 8x10 he used for decades?

There is more to be said for being comfortable with what you have than obsessing over "better". This does not discount the advantages, both technical and aesthetic of owning and using fine gear. Comfort and familiarity are more important, in my mind.

Alan Gales
16-Dec-2018, 10:30
[QUOTE=Randy Moe;1473791]

I have 3 of most hand tools as I used to maintain 3 identical toolboxes in 3 locations. Easier to use...






That can get expensive, Randy. Especially with quality Snap On tools! ;)

I used to carry two tool boxes to work. One for the tools that I used every day and one for the tools that I occasionally needed. Both boxes were full and heavy but one stayed in the trunk of my car. I could always go back to it for a certain tool. Of course I worked construction jobs all over the place so I had to take mine with me. I can understand having tools at the sites you worked. That would be nice!

Per Madsen
16-Dec-2018, 10:35
Life is too short for bad tools.

Always buy the best tools you can afford.

I can recommend Proxxon:

https://www.proxxon.com/en/

Tin Can
16-Dec-2018, 10:37
Time is money.

I wish I had more time.



[QUOTE=Randy Moe;1473791]

I have 3 of most hand tools as I used to maintain 3 identical toolboxes in 3 locations. Easier to use...






That can get expensive, Randy. Especially with quality Snap On tools! ;)

I used to carry two tool boxes to work. One for the tools that I used every day and one for the tools that I occasionally needed. Both boxes were full and heavy but one stayed in the trunk of my car. I could always go back to it for a certain tool. Of course I worked construction jobs all over the place so I had to take mine with me. I can understand having tools at the sites you worked. That would be nice!

Roger Thoms
16-Dec-2018, 14:11
Starrett factory tour!

https://youtu.be/T7JqXbm-Nwo

Roger

Jac@stafford.net
16-Dec-2018, 14:56
I am too old with a pessimistic mortality to acquire anything that will last longer than I will.

Jody_S
16-Dec-2018, 15:05
I am too old with a pessimistic mortality to acquire anything that will last longer than I will.


I've had this discussion quite recently with a tool salesman trying to convince me to switch to Milwaukee for my daily use cordless stuff. He said it will last a lifetime. I said any of them would, at this point.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Dec-2018, 15:28
I've had this discussion quite recently with a tool salesman trying to convince me to switch to Milwaukee for my daily use cordless stuff. He said it will last a lifetime. I said any of them would, at this point.

Amen, Brother. My *grandfather at 92 years-old was told that his cigar smoking would kill him. Sure enough four years later he died, probably of boredom.

Grandpa left this advice for longevity: "Drink only the very best bourbon, smoke only the best cigars, and never touch the hand of a politician."

*francis xavier jalbert

Tin Can
16-Dec-2018, 16:04
Good link Roger. Spent decades in that type of shop.




Starrett factory tour!

https://youtu.be/T7JqXbm-Nwo

Roger

Willie
16-Dec-2018, 16:52
Amen, Brother. My *grandfather at 92 years-old was told that his cigar smoking would kill him. Sure enough four years later he died, probably of boredom.

Grandpa left this advice for longevity: "Drink only the very best bourbon, smoke only the best cigars, and never touch the hand of a politician."

*francis xavier jalbert
Maybe it worked for him. The smell and poisons from the smoke are often not welcome by those around these selfish types who think everyone should be blessed with the stink they put out.

John Kasaian
16-Dec-2018, 17:07
I've had this discussion quite recently with a tool salesman trying to convince me to switch to Milwaukee for my daily use cordless stuff. He said it will last a lifetime. I said any of them would, at this point.

Milwaukee ain't what it used to be! IMHO the new stuff isn't the quality of the stuff the made Milwaukee famous. Just like Porter Cable, production moved overseas and the quality plummeted from being well respected Pro quality to weekend Hobbyist quality while maintaining a Pro price tag.

Drew Wiley
16-Dec-2018, 17:29
Jac - having sold millions of dollars of Milwaukee over several decades, and having an in-house repair facility under contract with them, everything crashed after they were bought out by TTI of China. Now just red and black Ryobi or Rigid -same junk, just overpriced. The neo cordless drill batteries had a 50% failure rate brand new (anything more than 2% was unacceptable to me, and even 2% is unreasonable). Even the heavy duty corded drills were lasting less than twenty minutes. The same models US made typically took hard use for 20 years before repair. All of Milwaukee's actual engineers and pro sales force were fired.The new CEO had bankrupted six US manufacturers in a row. But that's what those guys are paid to do - sell off the trademark and marketing rights, market a bait and switch outsourced product, and at the same time get rid of the US competitor once for all; then take the blame, and for ruining the company take home a 30 million dollar golden parachute bonus. A 75 year old US company deliberately tanked in six months from the inside. I threw out the entire line except for Sawzall blades etc, still mostly US mfg and high quality.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Dec-2018, 18:19
Maybe it worked for him. The smell and poisons from the smoke are often not welcome by those around these selfish types who think everyone should be blessed with the stink they put out.

OK, don't get me going on meat eaters, cattle and cow fart pollution.

Alan Gales
16-Dec-2018, 19:00
Jac - having sold millions of dollars of Milwaukee over several decades, and having an in-house repair facility under contract with them, everything crashed after they were bought out by TTI of China. Now just red and black Ryobi or Rigid -same junk, just overpriced. The neo cordless drill batteries had a 50% failure rate brand new (anything more than 2% was unacceptable to me, and even 2% is unreasonable). Even the heavy duty corded drills were lasting less than twenty minutes. The same models US made typically took hard use for 20 years before repair. All of Milwaukee's actual engineers and pro sales force were fired.The new CEO had bankrupted six US manufacturers in a row. But that's what those guys are paid to do - sell off the trademark and marketing rights, market a bait and switch outsourced product, and at the same time get rid of the US competitor once for all; then take the blame, and for ruining the company take home a 30 million dollar golden parachute bonus. A 75 year old US company deliberately tanked in six months from the inside. I threw out the entire line except for Sawzall blades etc, still mostly US mfg and high quality.


I still have my old Dewalt reciprocating saw I bought back in the 80's. I used Milwaukee's on jobs but the blades would always vibrate loose when cutting metal, especially roof decking. You would have to constantly tighten the blades. It was slower to change the blade in the Dewalt but the blades stayed tight. Carpenters loved the Milwaukee Sawzall's but they cut wood.

The second shop I worked at was a duct shop and they used Black and Decker reciprocating saws. They worked great and were much lighter in weight which was appreciated. I'm sure that they were not as heavy duty as the Milwaukee or Dewalts but they lasted for years. Dewalt was said to be Black and Decker's professional tools back then.

Alan Klein
16-Dec-2018, 19:24
Hey, Alan. I own a pair of your electrician's pliers. Great tools!


https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Electrical-Hand-Tools-Electrical-Pliers-Linesman/Klein-Tools/N-5yc1vZbm95Z3xg

Klein Tools. Yeah. Unfortunately, must be different side of the family. I still have to buy them. Good tools though.

Drew Wiley
16-Dec-2018, 19:51
Bingo. Both Milwaukee and DeWalt are now disposable tool lines, in other words, rarely repairable and outsouced. Black & Decker commercial division ended around the 70's. DeWalt was originally a radial arm saw brand. DeWalt was purchased by B&D, and B&D by Stanley. All junk now, intended for big box distribution. Ironically, even Stanley once had a pro power tool division based in S.Carolina. It was purchased by Bosch, then moved to the Atlanta area. That's where Bosch's classic routers actually came from. Now they're all Taiwanese or Malaysian imports of so-so quality. But there's a big Makita plant too in the same suburb of Atlanta still making routers in the US, albeit just big noisy ones. I prefer big quiet ones, in other words, German.

Bob Salomon
16-Dec-2018, 20:17
Bingo. Both Milwaukee and DeWalt are now disposable tool lines, in other words, rarely repairable and outsouced. Black & Decker commercial division ended around the 70's. DeWalt was originally a radial arm saw brand. DeWalt was purchased by B&D, and B&D by Stanley. All junk now, intended for big box distribution. Ironically, even Stanley once had a pro power tool division based in S.Carolina. It was purchased by Bosch, then moved to the Atlanta area. That's where Bosch's classic routers actually came from. Now they're all Taiwanese or Malaysian imports of so-so quality. But there's a big Makita plant too in the same suburb of Atlanta still making routers in the US, albeit just big noisy ones. I prefer big quiet ones, in other words, German.
That Makita plant is huge and 2 miles from our home!

Drew Wiley
16-Dec-2018, 20:28
Interesting. The fellow I trained as my sorta replacement toured the Makita plant a couple weeks ago. I visited the store remodel about a week ago, still in progress and not open to the public yet. About 200 linear feet of Festool alone, not to mention the backup warehousing. I don't know how much will go to commercial Bosch and Makita, plus air tools, but quite a bit no doubt. Milwaukee was booted, except for accessories, and DeWalt booted long before. That whole Stanley empire is technically a Cayman Is Corp and not US at all, even though they don't have a single employee there! A big tax avoidance scam.

6x6TLL
17-Dec-2018, 22:25
I have a 3 meter high stack of Festool gear I've slowly bought over the years from my European rep. It will all outlast me, easily, and is a pleasure to use each and every time.

Roger Thoms
16-Mar-2019, 19:42
Always like the TV show How It’s Made. Nice episode on the combination square.

https://youtu.be/Wh4Pbntn0Yw

Roger

Tin Can
17-Mar-2019, 02:34
Starrett videos are informative I have watched factory tours recently.

I also use many of their tools.

The video could have included the very nice storage packaging usually included. Which varies from wood boxes to slim cases.

Used my Starett Dial Caliber hours ago with Bloodhoundbob!