Ilford semi-matte and matte

[Ulophot]

Ilford's semi-matte surface on the Warmtone Fiber paper is ideal for my purposes. I use Strand's varnish (as previously posted) to restore the range. For toning purposes, it would be nice to have an alternative fiber paper. Can anyone here who has used both Ilford's semi-matte and matte surfaces tell me how close they are, before I order some of the matte?

[bob carnie]

I prefer the matt surface, the semi matt has a texture I do not like, they both are great though but if picking one over the other it would be the matte... In fact I prefer matte paper these days over glossy for all my work.

this paper tones really nicely with a slight bleach sepia then followed by a slightly aggressive selenium tone.. I do not think there is a better combination , also these papers lith really well contrary to public opinion.

I do not like these papers untoned btw.

[Drew Wiley]

I use either the matte or far more often, the glossy version. They tone analogously, but obviously render any given image with different personalities. If it weren't for the subtle toning options and higher detail, the matte paper could be confused with inkjet.

[Corran]

this paper tones really nicely with a slight bleach sepia then followed by a slightly aggressive selenium tone..

Would it be possible for you to post a before-and-after example of this?

[bob carnie]

Would it be possible for you to post a before-and-after example of this?


Bryan
I have after but not before as I never keep an untoned matt silver print...A good example of what I try to do would be someone like Bill Schwabs work , I can take some Iphone snaps of a current show that has this paper up but not really sure it will give you what you want.

[Corran]

It's hard to judge color/toning without a comparative untoned print. Perhaps I should just give it a little try. I've never done bleaching, then selenium. What do you mean by "aggressive?" Higher concentration of selenium?

[bob carnie]

Hi Bryan

Its very easy and cheap to split tone, as the selenium is reused all the time and the chem's to make the bleach are dirt cheap and easy to obtain

I use 12 litres of water to 32grams each Pot ferri and pot bromide for the bleach stage, i wet the prints and then dip into this bleach for 30 seconds and watch the highlights, its a delicate dance, I wash the bleach off with a hose and then dump into a tray of 15 litres of water to 32grams of sodium sulphide (stinky) and let it tone for about 1 minute, under good light I determine if I got enough brown into my prints. A trick I watched Bill Schwab do is put the print back into the bleach for a time and wash and then back into the toner, He builds up the tone to desired... I like his method over mine where I just go for it and do not build up tone but rather rely on a fixed time I selected from past experience.
By varying the dilution of bleach and time you can come up with a time dilution that works best for you. As far as the strong selenium , it smells, your teeth will hurt if you put your head too close to the selenium as it is trying to attach to the metal in your teeth. But over time it is easy peasy.

The toner I use Selenium is a 1:5 mixture which is much stronger than most here would use.. I now put the print into this higher concentration mixture and watch the low shadows , at the hint of change of colour I put into flowing wash immediately which stops the action.. if you go to youtube and type in my name there are about thirty rank amateur videos I have had the pleasure (drinking beer while shooting ) to produce. There is a video on my toning methods there.

Bob

[Corran]

Thanks. Yes, 1:5 is way higher dilution, I usually use 1:15. Is there any real difference to using a higher dilution and longer times, compared to lower dilution and shorter times?

[bob carnie]

Thanks. Yes, 1:5 is way higher dilution, I usually use 1:15. Is there any real difference to using a higher dilution and longer times, compared to lower dilution and shorter times?

I have never seen the difference. just faster to get where you want to go.

[Corran]

Cool. Easier for me to use what I have for testing.

[Drew Wiley]

MGWT takes in selenium very quickly, so I don't like it any stronger than 1:20, and rather cool. I sometimes used it optionally for triple-toned prints. My favorite method of split toning differs from Bob's. You might want to try both. I dev the print in 130 glycin, which leaves it a bit warm; but that is what you want at the start - finely divided silver. But it should be fully developed for DMax in the deep shadows. Then it is toned anywhere from one to seven minutes in a dilute version of GP-1 gold toner, in order to get blue-black shadows. Note that the classic GP-1 formula recommends usage at about four times the concentration
of gold than is really necessary - time can be substituted for concentration. Gold toner must be disposed at the end of each session, so higher dilution will keep the cost reasonable, as will using only enough dilute volume to keep the surface of the print wet by rocking the tray. Rinse well before proceeding. Then go to very dilute Kodak brown toner. This is an easy-to-use sulfide, and now sold under other brand names since Kodak has stopped producing it. I now use Legacy brown toner. You must work very quickly to get the print evenly submerged in mere seconds or it will go blotchy. Pull the print early or it will overtone, and immediately immerse it in a tray full of plain water to instantly remove toner from the surface. The full toning effect will occur during the long wash cycle. I use an archival slot washer. It takes a bit of practice to learn to predict the result, which is difficult to repeat exactly from print to print; but that uniqueness print to print is part of the beauty offered by
this technique. You can make it either as subtle or as warm as you wish. I generally aim for a more subtle effect.

[bob carnie]

I use to love the Kodak brown toner, is this Legacy a direct copy of the formula??

[Drew Wiley]

It seems identical composition-wise, Bob. I don't know about concentration. I get it from Freestyle in LA.

[bob carnie]

I may have to give it a go, it was a lovely toner when I used it.

[adelorenzo]

I've been split toning in the opposite order from Bob. I do selenium first then sepia. Mostly because I am going straight from the fixer to the selenium toner after just a quick, vigorous rinse. I then do hypo clear and wash the print before getting into the sepia. My usual times on Ilford paper are selenium 1:20 for 3-7 minutes, then I use a highly dilute bleach for 30-90 seconds depending on how much sepia I want.

I have also found that when I do selenium after sepia it tends to bring more reddish-brownish tones into the print shadows on the Ilford Warmtone. Whereas if I do the dilute selenium first they stay blacker. YMMV of course.

[Drew Wiley]

I cut the fixer time way down by using TF4, and my selenium time with MGWT is usually about 15 seconds! I'm not generally after an antique-looking brown, but if I were after red-browns, only around 45 sec in very dilute sulfide brown toner generally will do it. I retired now, but not too long ago I not only had a hectic full-time day job, but a small ranch across the state to maintain every other weekend. So I learned the value of more efficient workflow.

[esearing]

Based on my experimentation: Ilford MGFB Classic Glossy with selenium alone has a color shift more to the purple-brown side at 1:5 but more red-brown at 1:20. However once you introduce bleach the purple can shift back toward brown. I prefer Bleach/Thiourea/fix then Selenium (1:6) for an overall brown tone.

[koraks]

What is the function of the fix after the thiourea? Did you notice any difference when you skip this step?

[esearing]

What is the function of the fix after the thiourea? Did you notice any difference when you skip this step?

I have skipped it at times with no noticeable impact. It was in the instructions that I originally found when using PotFerri+PB Bleach with Thiourea. Curious what happens to un-toned silver halides remaining in the paper, are they simply washed away?
I believe this is why Farmers Reducer Part B was a fixer and why one always fixes after spot bleaching.

Probably a topic for a different thread to let the chemists weigh in.

[koraks]

In my experience, thiourea will completely stain all undeveloped halides. So after thiourea toning, provided that it is done to completion (typically less than a minute in my experience), no silver halides remain and fixing would do nothing and all.

I was wondering if your experience was different and that perhaps the fixing bath for some reason unknown to me altered the tone of the print.