Sinar Norma CLA, Europe?

[Jimi]

I am in need of some help with my dear old Norma. It needs a basic clean-up - the old grease is getting a bit too old.

I have been in touch with the official Sinar source in Munich, and they referred me to a fellow in Erfurt.

I have been sending a few emails - long story short - the man is not up to speed when it comes to replying (possibly too busy/other) and I am not very confident when it comes to speaking german on the phone.

Does one need to send off the whole camera or can I send for example the back/front standards?

Can anyone recommend another reliable person, in Germany or EU?

[Pere Casals]

Let me recommend you something.

Buy a 500ml spray of this lubricant: INTERFLON FOOD LUBE

https://www.interflon.com/de/

You can also use INTERFLON FIN SUPER, that's sold also in amazon (also in 100ml cans).

It's mostly the same, penetrating dry-film teflon lubricant, the "FOOD" version is H1 atoxic grade that can be used in food processing facilities, and that's nice.

You just spray a bit in friction surfaces of your Norma and it will be smoother than new. I did it in my Norma and now its a pleasure to use it. That kind lubrication will last a lot.

There are two or three lubricants around that may perform like this one, but don't use any teflon oil, it's not the same. Don't buy the "grease" version of the product, it has to be oil and not grease. In the past perhaps it had to be a kind of grease, but dry-film teflon lubricant substitutes grease (in this application) with great advantage.

[Bernice Loui]

Adding a liquid lubricant in a attempt to free up aged lubricant on a Sinar Norma is not recommended. Some time ago took apart the Sinar Norma mechanical to see why they were so difficult to move. Essentially over many decades, the original lubricant used by Sinar dries out and become a hard clay like substance that has adhesive qualities. Adding a liquid lubricant might dissolve this stuff to some degree, but there will always be some residual that can cause problems. The proper way to resolve this problem is to take the Sinar mechanicals apart and clean every bit of what remains of the old lubricant out... completely. Then clean all the parts best as possible and lubricated with a about a NLGI# 1 synthetic moly grease sparingly. Once properly cleaned, lubricated and adjusted the precision and feel of the mechanical of a Sinar Norma is quite remarkable.

Nearly identical difficulty happens on old microscopes and the process is much the same.

Bernice

[Pere Casals]

Adding a liquid lubricant in a attempt to free up aged lubricant on a Sinar Norma is not recommended. Some time ago took apart the Sinar Norma mechanical to see why they were so difficult to move. Essentially over many decades, the original lubricant used by Sinar dries out and become a hard clay like substance that has adhesive qualities. Adding a liquid lubricant might dissolve this stuff to some degree, but there will always be some residual that can cause problems. The proper way to resolve this problem is to take the Sinar mechanicals apart and clean every bit of what remains of the old lubricant out... completely. Then clean all the parts best as possible and lubricated with a about a NLGI# 1 synthetic moly grease sparingly. Once properly cleaned, lubricated and adjusted the precision and feel of the mechanical of a Sinar Norma is quite remarkable.

Nearly identical difficulty happens on old microscopes and the process is much the same.

Bernice


Bernice, lubrication technology has achived remarkable advances.

Dry-film lubrication technology has a solvent that penetrates and cleans the internal surfaces and when the solvent evaporates then the dry-film remains linked to metal parts for extraordinary long time. My Norma had a lot of friction, I lubricated it with a dry-film two years ago and still it remains perfectly smooth, fantastic, its a joy using it.

[neil poulsen]

I wonder if Bob at PrecisionsCameraRepair.com will CLA a Norma?

Also might be worth checking with Glenn at GlennView.com? I know that he's knowledgeable and loves Sinar Norma cameras. But, I'm not sure if he does CLA's? So, just a possibility.

[Bernice Loui]

What happened to the old lubricant? It must go some where..

If one takes the mechanicals of a Norma completely apart, then puts all the precision bits into an ultrasonic clearer with the correct solvent, the resulting Goooo is remarkable.

While simply applying stuff to free up the parts does and can work, it does about zero to remove the dirt and grit acclimated over decades of service or properly address parts that are worn or adjustment of the precision mechanisms. The mechanicals of the Sinar Norma appears simple, but they are more complex and fragile than they appear. Do the wrong move on them, parts will be damaged or broken.

And yes, one can apply the lubricant of their choice to free up the mechanicals but it is NOT the same or equal as a proper complete take apart, clean, proper lubricant applied and adjusted.



Bernice



Bernice, lubrication technology has achived remarkable advances.

Dry-film lubrication technology has a solvent that penetrates and cleans the internal surfaces and when the solvent evaporates then the dry-film remains linked to metal parts for extraordinary long time. My Norma had a lot of friction, I lubricated it with a dry-film two years ago and still it remains perfectly smooth, fantastic, its a joy using it.

[Pere Casals]

What happened to the old lubricant? It must go some where..


The solvent component of dry-film lubricants is designed to degrease the inner parts as you move the mechanisms a few times, you have to move forward and back the mechanisms perhaps a dozen of times, but all dirt in the contact surfaces is expelled and what stays inside is the dry film.

Just try it...

I've been using those kind of products in really challenging industrial environements with precission equipment.

Beyond being absolutely happy about how my Norma moves after two years, I've recently also unblocked a Durst 138 S, all was nearly blocked an now it's a really refined device, I gave a can to a friend and he used it with a 184, with amazing results.

Cheap teflon oils can be bare oil with microdispersed teflon, this is not the same, when the oil goes out then the teflon also goes out, but in dry-film lubrication we have a completely different behaviour, as the teflon particles are electrically loaded and adhere to the surfaces while building a film layer. This helps all the dirt inside to go out when the mechanism works. If you don't try it you won't belive how well that works, it's hard to realize it until one tries it.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I have have partially stripped down several of my Normas, you really have to know what you are doing. Phillip Morgan had an excellent video and printout (20 chapters) on cleaning and lubing a Norma. I followed his instructions precisely. There are a lot of ways you can really mess up these cameras without proper guidance and tools. Proceed carefully. I used electronic contact cleaner, and acetone for tougher stubborn cleaning. Automotive wheel bearing grease (not too much!!) provides silky controls. The original Norma Manual specified white petrol (like used for camping equipment, stoves and such). The also provided a tin of grease for relubing. It was a blackish-looking grease, and I have several of those tins. They were taped inside the inside cover of the Norma Manual. Often the front manual covers are stained by the original grease.

Cleaning a Norma properly is not a quick or easy process, it's a major project. Any Norma can be brought back to new with proper care which is beautiful.


https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-norma-cla-guide.132584/

[Jimi]

Thanks for all suggestions, gentlemen!

I am not going to try to fix this camera myself, since I know from the guide that Philip Morgan did (would love to find it again) that it is no easy process, and I don't have the right tools anyways. I really love the camera but it is sitting mostly on the shelf since it is a bit too stiff.

We'll see what happens ... I've been in contact with Glenn - he had no leads in Europe. I'll continue looking.

Since it is a 5x7" and it is the rear standard that's stiff, I can't just go buy another part ...

[Daniel Unkefer]

Hi Jimi,

The 5x7 Norma uses the 4x5 rear standard (taking off the 4x5 uprights).
So you could replace just that part. Get another 4x5 rear standard and switch them out.
Sell your sticky one. Just a thought........

-Dan

[Jimi]

Thanks for the switch idea, Dan. Will look into that if I need to - didn't think of that angle.

I am doing a very basic cleaning at the moment, and things are looking promising this far.

Pere, could you clear out your notifications box? I am trying to send you a PM. :)

[Jerry Bodine]

...Since it is a 5x7" and it is the rear standard that's stiff, I can't just go buy another part ...

Jimi, can you be a bit more specific as to which movements of the rear standard are stiff?

[Pere Casals]

Pere, could you clear out your notifications box? I am trying to send you a PM. :)

I've cleared messages, it was full, sorry, I was not aware...

You can send it now

[Jimi]

Jimi, can you be a bit more specific as to which movements of the rear standard are stiff?

At this point it is only the shift that feels a bit jumpy/stiff. I've cleaned some gunk off, and it is much better, but not "buttery smooth" as the Leica dudes would say. :)

[Pere Casals]

At this point it is only the shift that feels a bit jumpy/stiff.


See the plating inside, marked in green, you should lube there.

182217

[Daniel Unkefer]

The shift mechanism is not difficult to disassemble and properly clean. It is the Microdrive focus mechanism that is extremely time consuming and difficult to clean and lube. You can take the slide mechanism apart and completely clean in a couple of hours. You have a 5x7 and Philip had a 4x5, they may seem to be different mechanisms, but they are one in the same. If you are handy you can figure it out. If you like I will pull my 5x7 rear standard and take a look at how it is held together.

I would suggest electronic contact cleaner, it dissolves the crud so you can remove it. And a toothbrush and q-tips. If need be move up to acetone to remove stubborn dirt

-Dan

[Jimi]

Toothbrush - that is one amazing invention! :)

Seriously though, I am making progress (if somewhat slowly). The biggest thing that I really regret ... is that I didn't get down to doing this earlier. It's already a different user experience when I don't have to wrestle with the camera controls while trying to keep check of the image making.

[ventdesable]

Thanks for all suggestions, gentlemen!

I am not going to try to fix this camera myself, since I know from the guide that Philip Morgan did (would love to find it again) that it is no easy process, and I don't have the right tools anyways. I really love the camera but it is sitting mostly on the shelf since it is a bit too stiff.

We'll see what happens ... I've been in contact with Glenn - he had no leads in Europe. I'll continue looking.

Since it is a 5x7" and it is the rear standard that's stiff, I can't just go buy another part ...

Hello,

You should try Photo Suffren. In middle of Paris. They do have the knowhow and Sinar spare parts.

https://www.photosuffren.com/ (http://https://www.photosuffren.com/)

Jérôme

[Jimi]

Thanks for the link, Jérôme - I'll keep it in mind. :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

Seriously though, I am making progress (if somewhat slowly). The biggest thing that I really regret ... is that I didn't get down to doing this earlier. It's already a different user experience when I don't have to wrestle with the camera controls while trying to keep check of the image making.

Jimi,
Amazing how dirty inside they can be, right? I have bought some truly awful ones very cheaply, they always clean up ok. Persistence is the key, don't squirt the dirt, but remove it, and then -lightly- lube with the right stuff.

[Jimi]

Jimi,
Amazing how dirty inside they can be, right? I have bought some truly awful ones very cheaply, they always clean up ok. Persistence is the key, don't squirt the dirt, but remove it, and then -lightly- lube with the right stuff.

Dirt? I am up to my knees around here, and still cleaning ... :)

[Bobab]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but just got my Norma and some of the movements are a bit stiff. I was wondering if anyone has tried the INTERFLON FOOD LUBE with much (and continued) success.

[Bobab]

Or at least does anyone know where I can find the CLA guide and or the video? None of the links I have tried so far work.

[luis moreno]

You can try here: https://tlrgraphy.com/2012/09/24/the-sinar-norma-cla-guide/

Good luck.

[Daniel Unkefer]

That seems to be an old link.

I can open this one from here:

http://doczz.net/doc/2811502/the-rough-guide-to-cleaning--lubricating--and-adjusting-t

You can do a lot of basic cleaning without taking the camera completely apart. Your Norma will Thank You and you will love how smoothly it then operates. You wouldn't run around a fifty year old car for long without some basic maintenance first, would you? :)

I would not deviate from Philip Morgan's instructions. Follow them exactly. Basic cleaning is not that difficult

Go to your local auto parts store. You need nitrile gloves, electrical contact cleaner, the proper type of grease, toothbrushes, toothpicks, silicone spray, acetone. etc. Work in a ventilated area and TAKE YOUR TIME :)

You can do quite a lot of improvement without going too deep into the camera.

In the future you could have a repairman completely strip it down.

[Bobab]

Thank you very much!

[Daniel Unkefer]

You're welcome. Let us know how it goes.

[Bernice Loui]

This previous discussion might help:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156434-Question-for-sinar-norma-owners&highlight=sinar+norma+focus+gear

~Which reminds me of getting the how to DIY cleaning your Norma post together.


Bernice

[Tin Can]

:cool::cool:

[Bobab]

I read through the guide and that thread and, I have to admit, I haven't understood everything. Maybe I need the video, or maybe I just need to get started and take it one step at a time and see what happens. Worst thing that can go wrong I guess is that I destroy the camera and my venture into LF dies in its infancy. At least I'll have my health, provided that I carry out the work in a well ventilated area and make sure I don't get hit in the eye by one of those flying ball bearings.

Can I check whether I am buying the right grease/lubricant/cleaner before I go ahead an put in an order. I don't know much about these things.

The grease:

The instructions says moly grease. I am guessing it means something like this: Moly grease (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverhook-SGPGT10-Moly-Grease-Tube/dp/B00W6Q3BDO/ref=psdc_303918031_t3_B004O2DRPA)

But I was wondering whether something like this could be just as good, since I have a bottle of it at home at it seems to be generally used for the same type of thing as moly grease (based on the little I read about moly grease) such as bike axles, etc:
https://road.cc/content/review/74612-motorex-bike-grease-2000


Lubricant

The guide says I need silicon lubricant, but only seems to use it on one of the steps (do I really need this?). Are these the right stuff:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soudal-SP400-400-Silicone-Spray/dp/B00ILY1TU2/ref=psdc_303918031_t3_B0060KK054?th=1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/WD40-Performance-Silicone-Lubricant-250ml/dp/B00KPUBRJ8/ref=psdc_303918031_t2_B0060KK054

The cleaner

The guide suggests Electronics Parts cleaner. Am I supposed to use this every time it talks about cleaning, unless otherwise specified? Are these the right stuff?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SERVISOL-200ml-ELECTRONIC-CLEANING-SOLVENT/dp/B003SP6ILE

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Simply-SP-028-Electrical-Cleaner-Maintance/dp/B00OCKZT1E/ref=pd_sbs_267_5/258-7237381-2712357?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00OCKZT1E&pd_rd_r=337249d0-ef21-44f5-a5d1-03d50958fc30&pd_rd_w=iRfN1&pd_rd_wg=Ucpgw&pf_rd_p=2773aa8e-42c5-4dbe-bda8-5cdf226aa078&pf_rd_r=J405NPVCYDRATKAE1Z92&psc=1&refRID=J405NPVCYDRATKAE1Z92


penetrating lubricant

The guide says I need this if I have an old Norma with the press-fit shift bar caps. Is there a way I can check this without opening up the camera first?

I am assuming this is the right stuff? https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/wd-40-specialist-penetrant-250ml-542772550?type=shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw_-D3BRBIEiwAjVMy7I12wmQi8iKbj7PTPWUe-ltfx-MhrTVfIrDCaXS0XVdfLq15pSY5cxoCx8MQAvD_BwE

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50056659192_70d28752e8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jgksQ9)My collection of Norma cleaning supplies (https://flic.kr/p/2jgksQ9) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

It might help us to know what parts you think need specific servicing? I would say get started carefully and see what happens. I've never been able to damage anything so far. I would not start removing any screws until you are pretty confident to proceed.

I ended up going with brown Automotive grease. Lube with Moly Sulfide is what he recommends. Perhaps others will chime in. I believe he uses the silicon spray to lubricate the Sinar Rails. A good idea I think. You will use a lot of the contact cleaner, use in good ventilation. If you still have residue use the Acetone. Also nasty stuff. And a roll of paper towels very important. The PB Blaster can help loosen stuck together parts. Wear nitrile rubber gloves; don't get that stuff on your hands.

He shows pictures of both types of bar caps. When you have it apart you can see. I've myself just cleaned the slide mechanism with out even taking it apart and that has been good enough so far. You can see the buildup under the bottom side of the sliding side rail

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50056651612_4e77673ab0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jgkqzs)Original Tin of Sinar Norma Grease (https://flic.kr/p/2jgkqzs) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Sinar Norma included a tin of grease attached to the inside cover of the instruction book. Here is an old tin and as you can see it is blackish/brownish, the black I believe is the Moly Sulfide.

Hope this helps.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Here is the original Sinar Norma Instruction Manual. Yahoo! and thanks to Camera Eccentric! :)

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/sinar_1.pdf I would start by studying how to take it apart into the basic component pieces.

See page 11 and 12 which talks about maintenence and lubrication. They suggest "white petrol" which I think is what you put in camping cooking stoves.

In the USA we have Coleman fuel for camping stoves.

[Bobab]

Thanks both. The issue is that I don't know how these cameras are supposed to feel and how smooth they are supposed to be, so I was just going to do a full CLA to make sure everything is working perfectly. Given what could wrong, perhaps that is not the best idea - maybe I will start with the points indicated in the Norma user manual itself and see how that feels. One thing I am quite certain about is that the knob that I need to turn to allow the rear stand to tilt is almost impossible to turn.

[Bobab]

So started disassembling the and I think I may have already mess things up. :(

I can't screw the standard rod cap back on. I am not sure if caused this while slide off the holder, or if it was already like this, but top of one of the risers looks slightly deformed, which means the cap doesn't want to screw back in. Any idea how I can fix this?

The other thing I can't figure out is how to loosen the riser closes to the knob on the tilt locking screw from the screw. Does this one also screw off like the other end or should it just separate? The whole section of the mechanism is super stiff, I can't figure out how to separate it in order to lubricate it.

[Bobab]

So started disassembling the and I think I may have already mess things up. :(

I can't screw the standard rod cap back on. I am not sure if caused this while slide off the holder, or if it was already like this, but top of one of the risers looks slightly deformed, which means the cap doesn't want to screw back in. Any idea how I can fix this?

The other thing I can't figure out is how to loosen the riser closes to the knob on the tilt locking screw from the screw. Does this one also screw off like the other end or should it just separate? The whole section of the mechanism is super stiff, I can't figure out how to separate it in order to lubricate it.


Ok. Fixed (sort of) the first problem. Managed to reshape the riser sufficiently to screw the cap back in. Though it didn't feel very nice.

Still stuck at the tilt locking screw. Any help appreciated.

[Daniel Unkefer]

It would help to see some pictures. Not completely sure what is going on. Tell us and show us and help is around here :)

You have two standards. Take the better of the two completely apart and see, and (after cleaning) learn if it feels right and why. Then go to the one with the issues. How do the two compare? That is your answer.

Normas are tough but not impossible to damage. But any Norma can be rebuilt (unless really severe impact damage).

The big black tilt knobs should both unscrew with the same smooth ease. If it is jammed on you will need to use some additional carefully directed force. Perhaps a rubber band wrench and PB Blaster. Then pull the tilt rod straight out. Clean the threads until no crap remains and lightly lube with an "emulsion" moly using brush. Reassemble that's it

[Bobab]

205388

This is the picture of what is stuck. Am I supposed to be able to remove this riser from the rod? I can't seem to create any distance between the riser and the knob.

Also, if I do manage to get it out, do you only grease the threads? Or do you Alps put some sort of lubricant, e.g. silicon, on the rod itself so it turns more smoothly inside horizontal bit of the assembly?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Refer again to fig 18 in the instruction book for all routine lubrication points.

In the USA we have PB Blaster, it is a penetrating oil. The idea is to soften the decades of crap and then gently muscle it apart. It will go.

OK What you have is a rod that is stuck inside one of the front riser. Try the other standard, and take it apart to understand the mechanism. It will come out! Must have an awful lot of crap to make it stick like that. Prolly decades of just sitting there. Not a biggie.

Do you have access to nail polish remover? That will remove the crap. And a stiff brush like a heavy toothbrush. You -lightly- lube the threads (once free of all crap). Also lube where it connects together, so you don't have this problem again. Use Moly grease, you can also use something else for a while. For the long term use Moly grease. I bought a 1000 year supply for eight Euros.

[Bobab]

Thanks. I'll order some penetrating oil. I did take both of them apart. And they are both stuck.

I have seen the figure in page 18. That was sort of why I was asking the question. I was surprised that you don't need to lubricate the rod itself because it is quite grippy inside the thing it sits in.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Sometimes penetrating oil will loosen stuck together parts. Those rods should be completely clean and turn smoothly. I would use electronic contact cleaner, and acetone if stubborn deposits remain. You will also probably need to clean the holes in the riser rods. Maybe some type of scrubber brush that will fit into those riser holes and clean them out. Do you see any corrosion on the rods or riser hole, or are they just really dirty?

I can't recall ever having this particular problem. But the rods should turn freely and not be sticky. Maybe in this case the silicone spray would work for you after you have cleaned the rods and holes thoroughly?

When using the contact cleaner and acetone, wear rubber nitrile gloves to protect your hands and ventilation.

[Daniel Unkefer]

[QUOTE=Bobab;1559384]205388

I notice that the very left edge of the rod looks "greyish" dark. It should be clean and shiny like the rest of the rod. It looks like it needs a deep cleaning with contact cleaner and if need be, acetone. Have you assembled the things you need to do a proper cleaning as above ^^? It is not just a matter of squirting some lube on this thing, the old sticky grey stuff needs to be removed, and inside the riser hole too! Then just a super light coating of moly on the two listed points.

I suspect that somebody long ago squirted the wrong kind of lube there, and it has now gummed up the action of the tilt rod/knob. If it is not turning smoothly it must be particularly filthy at these points. Assuming it does not have mechanical damage.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50071147693_fe33fdf635_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jhBHKT)Washer on Norma Tilt Rod (https://flic.kr/p/2jhBHKT) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Also each rod should have a small fibre or plastic "washer" as you see above on my Norma. Do you have these washers? They will need to cleaned and lubed as well.

This is a Norma I just got and it has not been cleaned.

[Bobab]

Ok. I just went through a hole can of electrical parts cleaner and am feeling quite light headed. Outdoors too, but I was spraying the who assembly quite liberally and letting it drain off it. Pretty much everything came off quite easily with just the electrical part cleaner. There is some blackening, but I think that is just wear rather than dried grease. In fact there wasn't much gunk at all. Once I got the penetrating stuff on it and let it sit, it start moving and I slowly took it off. Brushed and wiped everything with the cleaner and it is all moving freely. Quite hard to believe actually.

There two washers per rod. I assume that is right. Cleaned them well as I could. Should have probably used some cotton buds to get into the corners.

Is it worth going any further than this and carrying out the additional steps, or are they significantly trickier than this?

Ps: thanks for your help.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Sounds good.

How are the other mechanisms as far as overall smoothness? If you are satisfied the tilt is now working smoothly and you are ok for now with the rest of it, maybe take a break? And move on to getting the camera up and running :) You can always continue on in the future..... Also everything should lock down very tightly. There are two washers per rod Yes.

As a minimum I would clean and lube the points shown in the instruction book. Taking the micro drive apart is a BIG job. Of course you will have to make that call.

Well Done!

[Bobab]

The micro drive is the focus bit? That is relatively smooth. It is a bit inconsistent in its smoothness, but perfectly usable I think. The rise and fall (is that what it is called?) Is not particularly smooth. I really have to force the front and back frames up and down the risers. Should I maybe use some silicon lube on the outer surface of the risers?

Other than that I think it is usable actually. Though I will only know once I start using it.

[Daniel Unkefer]

The micro drive is the focus part. A complicated mechanism which can be seriously messed up if you are not sure what you are doing.

Yes on the silicone spray, it will make the riser rods more slippery. Carefully examine the rods for impact damage. Sometimes they can be corrected by smoothing out. The silicone spray is also good for lubricating the basic camera rails, so the front and rear standards glide smoothly. Don't forget to clean and lube the threads on the rail clamp. That's super easy to do.

Get the camera up and running and decide later if you want to work on it further.

[Bobab]

Is it possible to buy minor parts for these Normas still. The previous owner of the Norma had for some reason bent the tab on the sliding clip the wrong way, and it effectively broke when I was playing around with it. It must have been holding on by a few atoms at best. Is it impossible to get a new tab? I guess it still functions - I would have to use that sliding clip on the bellows side, and just not move it very often. But it would be good to get a replacement if possible.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Usually I find it is cheaper to buy a partial camera than to buy single parts. Also you have more parts that can be interchanged.

Like this one....... Auction is over but this is the idea:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-Norma-large-format-rear-standard-4x5-9x12cm/133385432787?hash=item1f0e642ed3:g:CCwAAOSwX39ek1W0

Sell off the rest of it after you have the parts you need.

[Bobab]

Usually I find it is cheaper to buy a partial camera than to buy single parts. Also you have more parts that can be interchanged.

Like this one....... Auction is over but this is the idea:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-Norma-large-format-rear-standard-4x5-9x12cm/133385432787?hash=item1f0e642ed3:g:CCwAAOSwX39ek1W0

Sell off the rest of it after you have the parts you need.

Couldn't find a new standard at less than £100 so ended up using some epoxy to make the repair. Seems to have worked pretty well. I have now opened an cleaned the front and rear frames and greased the ball bearing and the two small black guides (sorry if I am using the wrong). And I have greased and reassembled the front and back standard.

One thing I am not sure about though is how I decide when to use grease and when to use the silicon lubricant. For example, between the surfaces that move each other when you use the pivot. Or the track/surfaces that move against each other when you use the precision focus, or the track for the left and right shit of the front and rear standard (sorry about terminology again), is grease the best choice or the silicon lube?

[Daniel Unkefer]

The best is the moly grease, that is what Phillip Morgan indicates to use, and it is similar to the original grey/black Norma grease that came with the camera. The silicone grease is good for making the circular base rails more slippery, and smoothly slide the standards back and forth on the rails. He also indicates to just use a light amount, so as not to over-grease. Just an "emulsion" thin coating of moly grease will do it.

Sounds like you are getting it done. How is the actions of the camera now? It should be quite smooth I imagine.

Congrats! :)

[Bobab]

Yes. All back together again and a lot better than it was before. Not perfect and I keep find blackened dry grease on places I had already cleaned, but I guess that's what happens when I don't open the camera up completely. The tilt, which was the worst of the movements is now the smoothest.

Just wanted to say thank you again for responding to all my questions here. Gave me the confidence to tackle it know that I could come back on here if I got stuck.

Can I just ask one more question. What is the best way to mount this on a tripod? I have a gitzo traveller tripod. It is light weight but super sturdy so I think it should handle the Norma ok. I also have markins ball head (I think a q20) and a RRS quick release clamp attached to it. Is there something I can get for the Norma that would allow me to clip into the quick release?

[Daniel Unkefer]

You are welcome. :)

The best head by far is the green one Sinar made for the Norma. It was designed to be part of the camera, really. I have four or five of them around they are THE BEST

I strongly dislike ball heads but YMMV

[Bob Salomon]

Yes. All back together again and a lot better than it was before. Not perfect and I keep find blackened dry grease on places I had already cleaned, but I guess that's what happens when I don't open the camera up completely. The tilt, which was the worst of the movements is now the smoothest.

Just wanted to say thank you again for responding to all my questions here. Gave me the confidence to tackle it know that I could come back on here if I got stuck.

Can I just ask one more question. What is the best way to mount this on a tripod? I have a gitzo traveller tripod. It is light weight but super sturdy so I think it should handle the Norma ok. I also have markins ball head (I think a q20) and a RRS quick release clamp attached to it. Is there something I can get for the Norma that would allow me to clip into the quick release?
Do you have the Sinar encircling clamp. If so you can just add a good, strong round Arca compatible clamp like the Novflex one. It mounts to your release in any of 4 directions. Novoflex call it it’s 6x6 plate

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48114348856_5a09b13a69_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2giGBCU)5x7 Sinar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2giGBCU) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Here is my 5x7/13x18 Norma with the Norma Pan-Tilt Head. Gitzo legs are great but this Norma Pan Tilt Head is uber rock solid and super quick to set up. Ball heads are difficult to level in all aspects which can be quite frustrating. Sometimes the shooting setup speed can be greatly important! Of course this may not be an issue for you?

This is not cheap item, but it is an extension of the Norma concept, and most here will agree it is a superior design in every way. It completes the Norma.

[Bobab]

You are welcome. :)

.... I have four or five of them around ...

Explains why I can't find any :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

Explains why I can't find any :)

They are around. Other people are also looking for these. Norma stuff is fairly plentiful. Prices all over the place.

Check Ebay.com I also look at Ebay.de Search simply under "Sinar" as they get listed all sorts of ways.

There is a copy made in China but I would get real Norma if I were you You won't be disappointed :) Just make sure not broken

I have bought a lot of Norma stuff from local camera shops over thirty five + year's time, and online when came the internet from all over the world :)

[Exploring Large Format]

They are around. Other people are also looking for these. Norma stuff is fairly plentiful. Prices all over the place.

Check Ebay.com I also look at Ebay.de Search simply under "Sinar" as they get listed all sorts of ways.

There is a copy made in China but I would get real Norma if I were you You won't be disappointed :) Just make sure not broken

I bought a lot of Norma stuff from local camera shops over thirty five year's timeYou could do what i did. I bought the Chinese copy because, frustrated, i couldn't find a true Sinar. The copy functions great. Well made. Immediately, a very fine Sinar version popped up on the auction site, and i got it for the same price. The Sinar version is black, but it matches the tripod so all good. They are still out there, and good luck!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Jimi]

I have been looking for molybdenum disulfide "grease", found some dry Moly Lube on the Microtools homepage, but does that work - or does it have to be something more fluid?

If not, what could otherwise be used that can be found in Europe?

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50149427941_f25ee0188b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jpwVKk)Norma Moly Grease (https://flic.kr/p/2jpwVKk) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

OK I am in the USA. I bought this at the local auto parts store, this is way beyond a lifetime supply. This is what I am using.

"Premium Moly EP Grease Grasa Tipo Moli EP". Suitable for Ford Lincoln Mercury chassis, drum brake bearings, u-joints, etc.

Lithium 12 Hydroxy extreme pressure grease.

FYI: On the left in the tiny tin, is Sinar Norma original grease, which came with one of my cameras. Sinar used to tape the tin of grease (in a Sinar logo imprinted manila envelope) to the inside cover of the instruction book. As you can clearly see, it's about the same thing.

I use a flat wooden toothpick to apply just the tiniest amount to the Norma lube points. Then buff off any excess. Sinar says "just the lightest emulsion coating" which is not much at all. The action should be super silky smooth.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50151457012_0449b178e6_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jpHjVj)Recent Norma finds (https://flic.kr/p/2jpHjVj) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Norma stuff is out there. Yesterday my wife and I went to Midwest Photo Exchange. In the back corner was a kind of rough looking 8x10 Norma Expert outfit set up with 4x5 reducing back, and some other stuff, with the original 8x10 travel case.

They priced a Pan Tilt head separately, and I made them an offer of $210 which they accepted. This is like the cleanest head I have now.

And they had a super clean Norma shutter in good condition. I made them an offer of $125 (without cables) and they accepted that.

So stay diligent. Print out the instruction book so when things pop up cheaply you know what you need and can grab them.

The shutter runs smoothly and appears accurate to my eye, but it now does stick partially open when popped for viewing, so it really needs a good clean and lube. I have found a great guy in NYC who cleans and adjusts any Sinar Shutter for $175 and this is the second one he will be getting from me.

Years ago a clockmaker friend cleaned my first Norma shutter. Did you know that the interior bearing points are jeweled, like a fine Swiss watch? :)

[Bobab]

Is the Chinese copy also marked Sinar? Just want to know whether they are easy to tell apart. Also, would you pay £200 for a beat up pan tilt head in usable condition. It feels very very expensive.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Here is how to get the copy from China....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pan-Tilt-Head-for-Sinar-Camera-Silver/183068773697?hash=item2a9fbfcd41:g:v9MAAOSw5cNYLR1Q
I believe that the quality of materials and overall design of the green original Norma is superior. I guess I am a Norma purist :)

Myself I am now retired and in the process of building a dream studio (think 1960s/1970s equipment of my particular taste) and I am now selectively buying Norma stuff to round out my equipment. Prices are all over the place.....

When you say "it feels really really expensive", are you meaning holding it in your hands it feels expensive, or do you think that is an "over the top" price? It was originally very expensive in 1960s Dollars/Euros! :)

Two weeks ago I walked into one of our local pro camera shops, and they offered a near-mint Norma pan/tilt head head, they were asking $275 US. I counter offered with $210 US and they accepted my offer. I wanted another (I have four already) but did not want to pay "the moon".

200 Euros seems acceptable to me, as long as there is no breakage anywhere. Normas are not indestructable but many have been abused during their lives. Often Normas look battered and scarred but perform their functions beautifully.

[Exploring Large Format]

Mine from China (when i'd assumed I'd never find a good genuine article) does have a "Sinar" badging, but you can tell it isn't a true Sinar by the finish right away. Not bad, but different. I bought a Sinar head in very good shape for less than the Chinese one, and prefer the Sinar one.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Daniel Unkefer]

Here's a Norma one for 150 Euros:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/SINAR-NEIGER-SHC-Art-758666-N/373127507309?hash=item56e021ed6d:g:r0IAAOSwoapfHYBK

[Bobab]

Thanks! Bought it.

[Jimi]

Got stuck early on ... I can't get the small gib (?) screws to budge. I tried whatever nail polish remover I happened to find in the household (non-acetone) but no luck, and I worry about breaking them. Is there anything else I can use to remove the nail polish, since it seems what I have does not work?

Worst case, I have to leave it as it is for the time being. If so, can I get to the swing mechanism without separating the focussing assembly halves?

[tonyowen]

In the USA we have Coleman fuel for camping stoves.

Worked for Coleman Canada, brought to the UK my Coleman Stove and Lantern, but sourcing Coleman fuel at that time was difficult and expensive. Just checked [via Google] and the fuel is available [Amazon and others] and the price is reasonable.
Regards
Tony

[Jimi]

I tried again today, soaked the gib screws with the solution I have at home, and after a while I got all three out. Patience and decent tools goes a long way.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50322638263_532d02d514_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c)Sinar Norma Handy Lowboy 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

My fifth Norma is this homemade in my shop "Sinar Norma Handy Lowboy" which will get some use.

The lensboard cone and helical are stock Sinar Norma items in the Norma catalog.

With the Sinarsix and Schneider 65mm F8 Center Filter I am good to go. :)

[NormaN]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50322638263_532d02d514_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c)Sinar Norma Handy Lowboy 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

My fifth Norma is this homemade in my shop "Sinar Norma Handy Lowboy" which will get some use.

The lensboard cone and helical are stock Sinar Norma items in the Norma catalog.

With the Sinarsix and Schneider 65mm F8 Center Filter I am good to go. :)

Cool!
What kind of viewer did you use?
How attached?
NormaN

[Daniel Unkefer]

Cool!
What kind of viewer did you use?
How attached?
NormaN

The body is a Norma Auxiliary Standard turned 45 degrees, threaded steel rods removed (staking pins knocked out to remove), and drilled and tapped out, enlarging and threading the original holes. In the same way, quick release bolted to the bottom of the camera. A beefy cold shoe was then bolted to the top of the auxiliary frame. The viewfinder is a Mamiya 7 43mm finder. Has nice easy to see bubble levels. The cold shoe and quick release are from China via Ebay, the strap lugs are from Pentax 6x7. Strap is Domke Gripper. The Pistol Grip is Graflex XL, which is what Norma used, they put Sinar Norma badges on it. Hyperfocal focus chart taped to back of XL Grip. The black pop-up hood on the back is Graflex 4x5 Crown Graphic type. Snaps right onto the Norma.

On a tripod, I can pop the lens open, and view like a regular Sinar Norma for more precise composition and the whole 65mm 4x5 view.

Camera is very HANDY. They named it right :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50299452847_3418a21bf0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD)Sinar Norma Handy w TTL Sinarsix metering (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49539309796_23d7e5efde_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itBUSY)Norma Handy Stuff 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2itBUSY) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49539536997_3236a92c52_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itD5qe)Norma Handy Stuff 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2itD5qe) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr