HC110 doesnt like me.

[Roger Beck]

These are the results of a processing test, one in a tray and one dip and dunk. They somehow have the same bubble like marks vertically and horizontal streaking. Any idea what is going on?

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The one of sky and wires was in a tray of 8-5x7 being shuffled continuously and randomly in an 8x10 tray with 2 inches of liquid. The tank had eight hangers in a Kodak 1 gallon tank. After tapping the hangers to get rid of bubbles, every minute I slowly pulled them out and tilted them to the side and repeated with tilting to the other side, that took 15-20 seconds. In between I didn't touch them. I used 5 min pre-soak, 10 min in HC110 @ 1:93 at 71C. The developer is made in a large pitcher with lots of stirring and mixing but HC110 is pretty gooey, I wonder if that has anything to do with this. Processing several sheets stacked in a tray seems to be problematic, the edges of the film are always going to have more development than the center and the developer flowing between the sheets can also cause problems. A tank should solve those problems and only have marks on the edges where the hanger holes are, I was hoping to be able to live with that. I am beginning to think that test subjects with large blank areas, such as the sky or paper seamless, they create or exaggerate problems because of their evenness. The Ilford instructions do say not to pre-soak FP4 and this could be why. Next I will try some different things such as one sheet at a time and different developers and agitation.

[Bruce Watson]

HC110 doesn't like me either. It's just too active a developer for me, even in the highly diluted states. So I dropped it, more than a decade ago. XTOL is much easier to control, and I like the results better.

The most even development (as in perfectly smooth gradients from clear blue skies, etc.) I've seen in a 5x4 sheet was from a Jobo 3010 tank. And HC110 in any dilution just hated that tank with Tri-X. And really hated it with TMY. But XTOL, love at first sight. What can I tell ya?

[Roger Beck]

HC110 is an active developer should have seen that from the start. Things were way too contrasty so I increased the dilution by 50% then doubled it again to get 1:93 and increased the time. I really like the look though.

[Jac@stafford.net]

HC-110 takes a long time to thoroughly incorporate. It is great for re-use. A rotary processor is good, too. Tips: let the developer sit for 15 minutes after stirring and do not pre-soak.

[brouwerkent]

Regarding HC110 or any other developer...the big issue here is agitation that will not cause uneven development. I used HC110 for years..and I found two perfect ways to get absolutely even results.... 1. Each sheet in individual trays....in a larger tray...shake the larger tray. 2. Jobo Expert Drum

Multi sheet shuffle asks for trouble. Likewise...Kodak or other hangers are a nightmare. Calumet made a wonderful discontinued film holder for gas burst that only had a couple nubs to hold the film on a plexi sheet...those worked...but around the nubs there was a track of uneven "bromide drag"

So I suggest reworking your method to only use one tray per sheet. The Expert drums work very well...but I have seen occasional edge issues if the rotation speed is too fast.

Phil

[Luis-F-S]

I've used HC-110 for over 25 years, and have presoaked the entire time. It likes me and I like it just fine. It's the only developer I use both for 1 gal tanks and rotary processors. I slow the rotation speed by 50% and have no issues. L

[Jerry Bodine]

...I used 5 min pre-soak, 10 min in HC110 @ 1:93 at 71C...

71C = 160*F. Surely that's a typo. I've never had any issues shuffling 6 4x5 sheets in a 5x7 tray, and always have presoaked long enough to remove the antihalation layer completely.

[Nodda Duma]

I use HC-110 exclusively, for film and plates. I develop my 4x5 stuff in a Stearman SP-445 tank and roll film in a Paterson. Works great

[Roger Beck]

I use HC-110 exclusively, for film and plates. I develop my 4x5 stuff in a Stearman SP-445 tank and roll film in a Paterson. Works great

Awesome, what is the max 5x7 sheets you can do at one time. I need to do at least 8.

[Ben Calwell]

I've always had good luck with HC110. I process five 4x5 negs in a Pyrex bread pan (the dimensions of which keeps negs from hitting the bottom) shuffling through the stack. For years, I used it diluted from stock solution 1:15. Recently, though, I've been using it mixed from the concentrate straight from the bottle.

[Roger Beck]

I’m convinced processing anomalies increase exponentially with increased film size, 4x5 > 5x7 > 8x10.

[Jim Noel]

The only reason increased film size causes more anomalies is operator error in agitation. My agitation methods vary slightly with different sizes. This is not true when I take the trouble to use JObo with expert drum. Some of my film is too large for this method so I use a tray one sheet at a time.

[Gary Beasley]

Are these prints or film scans? The mottle patterns are way too similar to each other.

[Roger Beck]

Are these prints or film scans? The mottle patterns are way too similar to each other.

Good suggestion so I did a test. I am using a 12000XL scanner only because the highlights are better. On the V850 the highlights seem to blow a little too quickly. Scanning in to .tif and adjusting in Camera Raw.181415

[Roger Beck]

The only reason increased film size causes more anomalies is operator error in agitation. My agitation methods vary slightly with different sizes. This is not true when I take the trouble to use JObo with expert drum. Some of my film is too large for this method so I use a tray one sheet at a time.

5x7 does seem to have more problems than 4x5 but haven't tested for it yet. I am trying to process a minimum of 8 at a time, one per process would never work, and that has a lot to do with it. Might just end up with a nitrogen burst tank.

[Doremus Scudder]

I see no reason why trays or tanks shouldn't deliver good results as long as you get your agitation scheme right. Thousands of photographers past and present use/used both methods with excellent results. I would say, don't give up on trays and batch processing, rather work out the agitation method you need to get good results.

I used HC-110 for years, usually at 1+31 or 1+63 from concentrate, and had very even and consistent negatives (Tri-X, TMX, TMY Bergger 200) after I got my agitation method worked out. I usually develop six sheets of 4x5 at a time in 5x7 trays with shuffle agitation. Initially I had too-dense edges. This was caused by my pushing the negatives down into the solution too vigorously which swirled the developer around the edges more than in the middle. I eased up, just helping the negatives slowly sink onto the top of the stack and then swishing my fingertips over the middle of the negative a time or two before pulling the next sheet off the bottom of the stack.

With HC110 I agitated once through the stack every 60 seconds. Now I use staining developers mostly (PMK and Pyrocat). These are much more finicky than HC-110 as regards evenness and tendency to mottle. Now I go through the stack every 30 seconds for the first half of the developing time. I get really smooth skies.

So, FWIW, here's my agitation scheme and some tips that might help:

I pre-soak and find that 3 minutes is about the minimum; 5 minutes is better. I don't really like to develop more than 6 sheets in a batch (that makes one shuffle every 5 seconds when going through the stack in 30 seconds). I have done up to 8 sheets at a time, but it gets a bit hectic.

I shuffle the stack in the water tray. When I'm ready to develop I lift the sheets out of the water tray, drain them a bit and then fan them out in my left hand like a hand of cards. I start the clock and immerse the sheets in the developer, emulsion-side-up, one-at-a-time in 5-second intervals, swishing my fingertips over the surface of each sheet a bit in the process. All sheets are in at second 25 and I then lift the stack gently, pull a sheet from the bottom, turn it 180° and gently lay it on the top of the developer, submerging it slowly with gentle pressure from my fingertips and see-sawing the sheet a bit on the way down. Then it's on to the next sheet. I always keep track of sheet one by having it oriented 180° from the other sheets so I can make sure it hits the top of the stack on the full and half minute marks. This goes on for half my developing time, usually 5-8 minutes. At the halfway point I reduce agitation to once through the stack every 60 seconds to promote edge effects a bit (one of my main reasons for using staining developers).

When development time is up, I leave sheet one on the bottom of the stack, lift the entire stack out, fan it and immerse the sheets one-at-a-time in the stop bath in the same order as they went into the developer, again in 5-second intervals to ensure every sheet gets exactly the same development time. After that, I'm not so fastidious, since unevenness is no longer an issue.

Some things that may help promote evenness: A nice long water pre-soak (3-5 minutes), longer developing times (I like 7 minutes or longer; my N for Tri-X is 9 minutes, for TMY 11 minutes), sufficient but not too vigorous agitation, rotating the sheets 90° or 180° each shuffle, getting through the stack rather quickly, e.g., once every 30 seconds as opposed to longer, not processing at higher temperatures (this increases developer activity and sometimes your agitation can't keep pace), and basically being smooth, gentle and somewhat random with your agitation so as not to set up swirls, standing waves, etc. With HC-110, I'd really make sure that the developer was well-mixed before developing as well. Stirring with a stirring paddle or the like won't aerate the developer much. I used to pour the developer back and forth with two graduates a time or two also.

Hope this helps a bit,

Doremus

[Roger Beck]

That’s a zen description of tray processing. I tend to rapidly peel the film off the bottom of the stack being held in my left hand, and push them down in to the water/developer/stop/fix as quickly as I can with the palm of my hand. About 2 every five seconds. Those almost identical circular marks on both tray and tank film leads me to believe it is something besides processing. Next test will be with a different developer.

[Randy]

When I used HC-110, (it was my only developer for probably 10-15 years until I ran out and switched to Rodinal) I never had a problem - 4X5 films in 8X10 trays, usually 6-8 sheets but have done as many as 18-20 sheets. I never pre-soaked longer than 2 minutes. In the developer, slowly shuffled thru the stack, let sit for 30 seconds, turned the tray and shuffle again. I never got what I see in your scans.

[esearing]

My problems with HC110 was too much contrast. I could never seem to tame it with more dilution nor reduced agitation in tank. For flat scenes it was ok, but for waterfalls with black wet rocks and white water in the sun, I could never tame the whites. Diluted Pryrocat HD has been better for me processing one or two sheets at a time.

[Roger Beck]

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In order to get even development I attempted to process the film while in film sheaths in a tray but not enough liquid flowed to the back of the film. If they can be used in a tank with the back of the sheath opened up while keeping the thin frame intact it might be a possible.

[Luis-F-S]

........ a tray of 8-5x7 being shuffled continuously and randomly in an 8x10 tray with 2 inches of liquid.

Why don't you start with ONE sheet and when you get that right, then increase the number? Would probably save a lot of film, aggravation and typing. You might also try to work with someone who can develop film so they can teach you. Just some suggestions that work.

[Doremus Scudder]

That’s a zen description of tray processing. I tend to rapidly peel the film off the bottom of the stack being held in my left hand, and push them down in to the water/developer/stop/fix as quickly as I can with the palm of my hand. About 2 every five seconds. Those almost identical circular marks on both tray and tank film leads me to believe it is something besides processing. Next test will be with a different developer.

Roger,

It sounds to me like you've identified your agitation problem, but just don't want to accept that it is, indeed, a possible culprit here. Pushing the negatives down "as quickly as I can with the palm of my hand..." is a sure recipe for extra edge density caused by turbulence at the edges AFAIC. Protecting the middle of the film from reaching fresh developer right away with the palm of your hand just exacerbates the effect.

Try slowing down and submerging your negatives more slowly, making sure that fresh developer flows over the center of the negative while it's being agitated. I'm willing to bet that your edge-density problem will magically disappear.

However, you have a point about the mottling being the same with both development processes. Upon closer inspection, it looks like possible condensation on the film before exposure even, or some other handling/storage defect. If that is indeed the case, then you've got more than one problem to fix. I've heard that FP-4 needs a rather long pre-soak if you choose to pre-soak (a must with LF negs and tray developing) due to surfactants incorporated in the emulsion. Try a minimum 5-minute pre-soak and see if that helps.

Best,

Doremus

[Roger Beck]

Those negs were so flat, FP4@ISO 16 then the dev cut in half, then scanned on a scanner that made them even flatter, then tweaked with as much contrast possible in all the settings. No negative would survive that much adjustment without artifacts. Looking forward to trying different things. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Mrportr8]

I've used HC-110 for over 30 years and have not had any problems whether tray processing, in a tank or on hangers. I presoak for 1 minute and then into the developer. Never had issues at any dilution. And there has never been a problem with mixing it either, even though it's a thick syrup, it does require a little stirring but nothing aggressive.

[blue4130]

Those negs were so flat, FP4@ISO 16 then the dev cut in half


Why are you shooting fp4 @ iso16?

[Luis-F-S]

Why are you shooting fp4 @ iso16?

Hopefully a typo otherwise the answer should be obvious.

[Roger Beck]

better. i was very gentle with the film. no pushing. 5 min presoak with agitation during most of that time. gently touching and pressing with the flat of my hand and fingers on the film just enough until it is submerged. then float the next sheet on top, repeat. rotate the stack 1/4 turn after each series of 8. shuffle and rotate, 5sec-10sec for each shuffle, for the first half of the development, about 4 times, one for each side of the film. then let them sit untouched in a stack for 30s-45s breaks during the final half of the processing, which allows about 2 more rotations. the film, in a much looser stack, slowly goes to the bottom of the tray. previously I would push it all the way to the bottom each time, and keep the stack tightly controlled. 9min HC110 1:93, 9 minutes @72 degrees in 8x10 tray. there is still some center to edge unevenness although the last one includes lens vignetting. I'm not sure what the "clarity" slide does in Camera Raw, but it seemed to bring out midtone differences.

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