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View Full Version : PLEASE HELP ---------- NEWBIE ----- 8x10 coming out Black in tray developing Rodinal.



Clieben
8-Aug-2018, 18:50
Hello,

Attempting to develop some 8x10s, in trays, with Rodinal. (Just got delivered from freestyle). I am in the west so it was in some heat probably while being ground shipped...



First 8x10 in, just turned black within a minute....


Immediately loaded camera, took a photo of the window..... attempted to develop, same thing... a little more slowly developed into black.


Using a small red safe light, also from freestyle...


Thermometer they sent didnt work, so I kept water "lukewarm" after reading 68-75 degrees for rodinal.



My measurement was 3 cups of water to 15mL of rodinal.


What am I doing wrong???? Yes film was loaded correctly.


LONG TIME reader and peruser of this forum.... first time developing...... please inform.

morecfm
8-Aug-2018, 18:58
Film is sensitive to red light and you're exposing the film while developing it. It must be developed in total darkness. Safelight is for paper which is not sensitive to red light. At least you got practice before going completely lights out.

Also, only one post is needed and this sub forum is the appropriate one to post this question in.

Clieben
8-Aug-2018, 19:00
I apologize for posting twice, trying to get this sorted out before tomorrow.


I cannot believe that is the mistake..... how could one even see the film is being developed if in total darkness?

Clieben
8-Aug-2018, 19:16
Ah I see thats it.... no wonder people use tube developers.... if you cant see the negative develop anyway.

Any other pointers? Can a green light be used as some places say?

dasBlute
8-Aug-2018, 19:18
you cannot see the film, because you need to be in can't-see-your-hand-in-front-of-your-face darkness :)

That being said, some use fancy night vision goggles to see development if you really think you need that...

andrewch59
8-Aug-2018, 19:51
What kind of film are you using? If it is color you need to be in the black, if it is black and white film you can use a red light. You are using rodinal so it must be black and white film. Try using less rodinal, 1:100

Chris Chow
8-Aug-2018, 19:59
Ah I see thats it.... no wonder people use tube developers.... if you cant see the negative develop anyway.

Any other pointers? Can a green light be used as some places say?

It's all about the feeling and muscle memory and comes with practice. I develop my film via tray processing in pitch black darkness - lining up your trays in the sink accordingly. Shouldn't be any different as if you're loading film in film holders while in complete darkness.

For tutorial, these youtube videos on tray processing don't exist anymore and fortunately I saved them: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zpu0UbXF9Gi49cqMSEnX_kr_sqWg1Scm?usp=sharing

Duolab123
8-Aug-2018, 20:47
What kind of film are you using? If it is color you need to be in the black, if it is black and white film you can use a red light. You are using rodinal so it must be black and white film. Try using less rodinal, 1:100

You know that you can't use safelights with modern black and white film, none at all.

Clieben
8-Aug-2018, 20:53
Thank you, you guys are amazing.

Yes its Ilford BW in Rodinal.... took another photo dev in darkness it worked.... Been many many years since developing....


I spent the past year shooting with this film, never developing.... so yes, I think I will maybe ? need to get some kind of night vision goggles, because, I will need to see where the negative is at while developing... always planned to do that.... develop per negative.... didnt know about the total darkness obviously...


Will dilute it more.... I now have even more respect for the photos I see here.....

Clieben
8-Aug-2018, 20:54
It's all about the feeling and muscle memory and comes with practice. I develop my film via tray processing in pitch black darkness - lining up your trays in the sink accordingly. Shouldn't be any different as if you're loading film in film holders while in complete darkness.

For tutorial, these youtube videos on tray processing don't exist anymore and fortunately I saved them: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zpu0UbXF9Gi49cqMSEnX_kr_sqWg1Scm?usp=sharing


Incredible, thank you Chris...

andrewch59
8-Aug-2018, 23:24
My error then, I learnt something new, I only ever use xray film, thankyou! I have put aside some 4x5 sheet film for a trip next year. It would have been a disaster spending days photographing Canada only to get back and have my film ruined.

Clieben
9-Aug-2018, 03:52
After developing about 25 8x10s since this post, a bunch of questions but for the moment is there a recommended paper to contact print? for Delta 100... Archival, fiber, etc? What options are there with Platinum and Palladium. (getting way ahead of everything wont be weeks until purchasing paper, ...).

What options are there for blowing up an 8x10... I imagine there must be some enlargers on the west coast at places you can pay to print? I recall looking into it long ago and it requires a room sized enlarger..... nothing a person could do on their own?


General question how many negatives should you develop in 3 cups worth of solution, 8x10 tray, 15mL Rodinal? I read somewhere it was only a few but people seem to always have multiple opinions/ experience with their processes.


Thank You for the help, as mentioned I have maybe spent 100 hours on here looking at photos in the past couple years.... and reading... mostly the photo forums...

Clieben
9-Aug-2018, 03:56
Another question, while my place is about 70 some degrees, even a bit hot, I noticed the water in the trays got very cold. I kept replacing the developer and water (for fear of the developers life/ water temp), but I wonder if its pretty warm in here, why the trays get so cold, and how do people deal with this- or does it not matter? If the stop and fix is cooler.... if someone is developing for hours, how do they keep all trays at temp?


I have also read people developing (?) in Rodinal for anywhere from 5-10 to 20+ minutes (stand), yet I found it took about 30-60 seconds to develop.... lukewarm water 3 cups water 15mL Rd, (trying to conserve resources, and yes I did once try the 100 to 1 ratio but didnt work on the particular negative so I repoured). So, why are people developing so long in Rodinal yet it took me only a few seconds? Using 100 speed film.... Even if they are stand developing, I could have swore I read many saying "nine minutes in Rd" in the image posting threads.... yes I agitated a bit from all four sides.


Thank You.

Clieben
9-Aug-2018, 04:56
Does it matter which side you contact print? If you want to retain the reversed Negative....

Tin Can
9-Aug-2018, 05:30
That's 2 questions.
.
For sharpest contact prints emulsion to emulsion is the standard

Under glass aided by thickness, spring pressure or vacumn. THe emulsions must be dry and in tight contact.

Please state your measurements in the same metric. I assume 3 cups is 24 oz, which is close to 700 ml and 15ml added in that is about 1-50. That will work.

Water always FEELS cold at room temp as your body is nearly 100F. Just adjust your water by letting it sir in a jug overnight in your space. It will be room temp which is fine for developing.

Looks up recomended times for deb=velopment, not here, go to the makers of film and developer. THen do it all eacacrly like a recipe for a cake. Follow the directions.

Later you may experiment for the rest of your life.

The reasons for different developing chemicals, time, temps and agitation schedules vary vastly.

You are making great progress, read more old threads and books.

Jim Jones
9-Aug-2018, 07:19
Does it matter which side you contact print? If you want to retain the reversed Negative....

You can contact print with the negative's emulsion side up, but you should use a fairly small distant light source for this. A broad light source can expose under the edges of grain in the negative. When duping or reversing graphic arts negatives, a small light bulb a few feet above the contact printing frame worked even with half-tone negatives and with more than one layer of clear film between the negative and the unexposed emulsion. With a large light source close to a vacuum frame, the two emulsions had to be in intimate contact to preserve half-tone quality.

koraks
9-Aug-2018, 07:32
is there a recommended paper to contact print? for Delta 100... Archival, fiber, etc?
Any paper will do. Some prefer fiber over RC, some prefer graded over variable contrast, some prefer dedicated contact printing papers (Lodima, Adox Lupex) over enlarging papers, some prefer cold-tone papers over warm-tone - but anything works and any paper can give pleasing results. It all depends on what you want the final print to look and feel like.


What options are there with Platinum and Palladium. (getting way ahead of everything wont be weeks until purchasing paper, ...).
Chemistry: mix yourself or buy pre-mixed chemicals from e.g. Bostick & Sullivan.
Papers: many papers will work, and some papers are specifically intended for this, but several papers that are originally intended for entirely different purposes (e.g. watercolor, etching) work just as well. Again, it all depends on what you prefer...testing is required if you run across paper you want to use. Not all papers will work, and since paper is usually not specified in the level of detail required to predetermine their suitability for alternative process prints, testing is practically the only way to establish if something suits your purpose.


What options are there for blowing up an 8x10... I imagine there must be some enlargers on the west coast at places you can pay to print? I recall looking into it long ago and it requires a room sized enlarger..... nothing a person could do on their own?
8x10 enlarger pop up on the second hand market from time to time and given enough space, they can definitely be used at home. But yeah, they're obviously not small enough to fit into a closet.


General question how many negatives should you develop in 3 cups worth of solution, 8x10 tray, 15mL Rodinal? I read somewhere it was only a few but people seem to always have multiple opinions/ experience with their processes.
'Cups' is not a very specific way of measuring. Fine if you're baking bread (although I prefer weights for that as well), not so accurate when you're mixing developer. 3 cups could be anything between 450 and 650ml. This yields a dilution of roughly 1:30 to 1:45, which is not a very unusual dilution for rodinal, although 1:50 and 1:100 are a bit more common.


Another question, while my place is about 70 some degrees, even a bit hot, I noticed the water in the trays got very cold.
If the temperature in the room is equal to or higher than the temperature of the trays with chemicals, the trays will not cool down.


I have also read people developing (?) in Rodinal for anywhere from 5-10 to 20+ minutes (stand), yet I found it took about 30-60 seconds to develop.... lukewarm water 3 cups water 15mL Rd
A fully fogged sheet will build density quite quickly during development. This time is not representative for the development time of a properly exposed sheet. Secondly, your developer is at a quite strong dilution, so times will be on the short side anyway. Thirdly, you mention 'lukewarm' water. For all we know, this could be anything between roughly 18C and 25C or perhaps even warmer. Note that developer increases in activity as temperature increases, and the effect is quite strong. 'Lukewarm' as a means of temperature measurement/control isn't going to give you consistent results, just like the 'cups' measurement method is problematic.



Does it matter which side you contact print? If you want to retain the reversed Negative....
As said, only a contact print where the negative's emulsion is in contact with the paper's emulsion will be tack sharp. Using a collimated light source (e.g. condensor enlarger), sharpness may still be somewhat acceptable if you reverse the negative, but it will never be optimal.

In short: I recommend being more exact in your measurement and control of chemicals, as you're never going to get consistent results if you just wing it.

Corran
9-Aug-2018, 09:11
It's easy to miss, but this forum is hosted on a site that has articles answering all these questions. Try here to start:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/darkroom-primer.html

Personally I learn best by reading an overview, trying it myself, and self-evaluating the results and then reading more. Asking generic questions is a last resort. If you are diving headfirst, I would highly recommend Ansel Adams' seminal "The Negative" and then perhaps "The Print" (don't forget "The Camera" if you need a primer on view cameras). Others suggest different books but I read those all back-to-front before even shooting one sheet of film and did not have any issues developing my first negatives. Thousands of sheets later I still refer to them if I need.