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LFLarry
23-Jul-2018, 03:20
I was watching one of Clyde's videos where he shows that he goes from fixing right to selenium toning and then to the archival wash.

Go to 5:30 in the video, you will see what I mean. https://youtu.be/PM19W5m5dQg

I always thought, and apparently incorrectly, that I had to do the archival wash after the fixer and before the selenium toning and then yet another archival wash after the selenium toner.

Anyone have technical information that is based on science and not opinion on this issue?

I would like to get this sorted out because it could be a big time savings, but I don't want to have issues down the road if this is not correct.

Many thanks!

Larry

Denny
23-Jul-2018, 03:43
In The Print, Adams suggests fix, then thorough rinse to remove any acid, then plain hypo and directly from hypo to toner. Page 132 in my copy.

esearing
23-Jul-2018, 04:58
Kodak rapid selenium toner (KRST) contains Ammonium Thiosulfate which is used in modern rapid fixers.
I have gone from fixer to rinse to toner but am always nervous in doing so.
A good wash between fixer and toner is a good practice to be sure the developer, stop, and fixer are removed.
Using a non-acidic fixer supposedly reduces chance of staining too.

koraks
23-Jul-2018, 05:16
I would recommend a good wash (although not necessarily archival) between fix and selenium toning to bring the pH of the paper back to neutral before toning. Selenium toner AFAIK has and high pH while most fixers Andre acidic, so directly from fix to selenium toner may interfere with the effectiveness of the toning process.
As pointed out above, selenium toners tend to contain thiosulfate, and complete washing after fixing would probably not be necessary for that reason.
Possibly unwashed, soluble silver complexes (remnants of fixing) may deplete the toner a bit more than necessary or could result in staining in a worst case scenario, so a little rinse shouldn't hurt.
I personally have not experienced a need for an archival wash before selenium toning; a good rinse suffices.

LFLarry
23-Jul-2018, 05:42
Wanted to say thanks to everyone for the replies and information.

I am using TF-5 as my fixer by the way.

I think I will just do a good 10 minute wash after coming out of the TF-5 before going into the selenium toner just to be safe.

By using TF-5, an archival wash is in the less than 30 minute range anyway.

Thanks

Louie Powell
23-Jul-2018, 06:29
This subject is discussed in Vestal's The Art of Black and White Enlarging, pages 164-165. He noted two practices:
- The Traditional method - the print moves directly from fixer to hypo clear to toner before archival washing in a continuous process
- Ralph Steiner's method - prints are fixed and then transferred to a plain water holding bath until the end of the session. At that point, they are given a quick rinse, treated in a hypo clearing agent, and then toned, and finally washed. (Selenium toners contain ammonium thiosulfate, so my practice was to include an additional hypo clear step after toning.)

He doesn't take a position in favor of one or the other - just notes that Steiner's method may be a more practical workflow in a smaller darkroom where prints must be processed in batches.

The issue to avoid is staining. In my experience, staining is more likely with sodium thiosulfate fixers than it is with ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers, and the likelihood of staining is less with fresh fixer than with fixer that is partially exhausted.

Alan9940
23-Jul-2018, 06:43
I guess mine is a modified Steiner method. I keep finished prints in a water holding bath until the end of a printing session, then quick rinse, into a plain hypo bath (second fix), the KRST, followed by a final archival wash. Been doing it that way for 40 years and never had any staining.

Neal Chaves
23-Jul-2018, 08:04
I have used the same procedure since the 1970s with many types of fixes and papers and have never had any defects show up later. After fixing, I do a brief rinse of the prints in running water. I then transfer them to a tray of hypo clearing agent mixed with Kodak Rapid Selenium toner in a ratio of 1:31. After two minutes of constant shuffling in that bath, I briefly rinse again and put the prints in an archival washer. In the case of large (for me, 16X20 and 20X24) I wash in a tray under a trickle and dump the tray about every 20 minutes for a one hour wash.

Fred L
23-Jul-2018, 08:28
interesting we all have different workflows.

fwiw, mine is - fix > holding bath till end of session > selenium > permwash > final wash (Kostiner or Summitek, depending on the darkroom I'm in)

LFLarry
23-Jul-2018, 21:05
Excellent Louie. This is exactly what I was hoping to see here!

Thank you very much!



This subject is discussed in Vestal's The Art of Black and White Enlarging, pages 164-165. He noted two practices:
- The Traditional method - the print moves directly from fixer to hypo clear to toner before archival washing in a continuous process
- Ralph Steiner's method - prints are fixed and then transferred to a plain water holding bath until the end of the session. At that point, they are given a quick rinse, treated in a hypo clearing agent, and then toned, and finally washed. (Selenium toners contain ammonium thiosulfate, so my practice was to include an additional hypo clear step after toning.)

He doesn't take a position in favor of one or the other - just notes that Steiner's method may be a more practical workflow in a smaller darkroom where prints must be processed in batches.

The issue to avoid is staining. In my experience, staining is more likely with sodium thiosulfate fixers than it is with ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers, and the likelihood of staining is less with fresh fixer than with fixer that is partially exhausted.

Doremus Scudder
23-Jul-2018, 21:27
This has been discussed much here. Search a bit to find a ton of info about this.

In a nutshell, you can transfer directly from the second fix to the selenium toner if 1) the prints are fully fixed (i.e., not underfixed) and 2) the second fixer is not too acid. Underfixed or too-acidic prints will stain.

I wash and dry my prints after the first fix and choose the keepers. These go to a toning session which consists of water soak, second fix in Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 for 2-2.5 minutes, directly to the selenium toner and then directly to the wash aid (Hypo Clearing Agent, etc.), then into the washer.

Best,

Doremus

Bill Burk
23-Jul-2018, 22:39
I found staining when I moved too quickly from fix to selenium.
So I include an hour's wash. I don't think it needs to be archival... Just don't want to dump right from fix to selenium
But I re-use selenium, so it seems wise not to contaminate it with fixer anyway.