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View Full Version : TF-4 vs. TF-5 for FP4+ Developed in Pyrocat HD?



Tim Layton
4-Jul-2018, 11:42
Hi, does anyone in the group here understand if there is a reason on a chemical level to use TF-4 vs. TF-5 for FP4+ developed in Pyrocat HD in a Jobo?

I have both on hand in a small supply and I would rather consolidate down to just one if it makes sense to do so. I have been using TF-5 on my fiber prints and out of habit, I have been using TF-4 since it came out for my Pyrocat HD negatives. I want to make sure I am not missing something.

Thanks

Tim

Michael R
4-Jul-2018, 13:16
There is no reason to prefer TF-4 over TF-5.

John Layton
4-Jul-2018, 13:44
I think there was some discussion of this (TF-4 vs TF-5) over on Photrio back in the Apug days. I've been using TF-4 with my FP4+/Pyrocat HD combo - and its been working well so I figure I'll just keep up with this.

I've been thinking of trying TF-5 with prints...as I believe it may have somewhat less odor in open trays. Does this sound correct? I actually don't mind the slight ammonia odor of TF-4 while tray processing negatives (plus my vent fans have no trouble keeping up with this)...but I have not tried TF-4 with prints as my print tray sizes are quite a bit larger (up to 34x48) than my film trays.

...and Tim, as you probably know - you and I share what I believe is the least common spelling of our last name!

Tim Layton
4-Jul-2018, 13:59
Hey John, always good to see another Layton!

I have also been very happy with TF-4 with my Pyrocat HD negatives. I don't have an issue with having to shake it up before mixing what I need for a development session. I typically develop either 5 sheets of 8x10 in the expert drum or 10 sheets of 4x5 in the expert drum.

I started using TF-5 for printing because of the lack of mixing/shaking before use and the reduced odor as you pointed out. I like to try and simplify if I can and so that is what is driving my question if TF-5 is appropriate for Pyrocat HD developed negatives.

I am printing up to 30x40 in trays with TF-5 and I use a large 16" tube for my 40x50 prints via my 4x5 negatives. I am actually working on a project right now where I am trying to get my 45V-XL with the 8x10 cold light head to be able to get me to 30x40 and 40x50 from my 8x10 negatives. I have hundreds of 8x10 negatives that I would like to be able to print and also for future work as well.

I want to make sure there isn't a chemistry-based reason not to use TF-5 on the Pyrocat HD developed negatives.

Thanks

Tim

peter schrager
4-Jul-2018, 15:23
TF5 is more likeable I've been using it with pyro for years

Alan9940
4-Jul-2018, 15:33
I have been using TF-5 for years with all films developed in Pyrocat-HD; or, any pyro-based developer for that matter. No issue that I'm aware of and it's more pleasant to use and easier to mix.

Tim Layton
4-Jul-2018, 15:34
Thanks for confirming Peter.


TF5 is more likeable I've been using it with pyro for years

esearing
4-Jul-2018, 17:01
TF-5 is PH Neutral and does not bleach the Pyro HD Stain. I have used both and never saw any difference on paper or film other than the fact that I used to get more particles in TF-4 than I do with TF-5.
I also see no difference on prints using Ilford Rapid Fix vs TF-5.
If toning a print I wonder if there would be a difference in response to rapid fix vs TF-5 after thorough washing?

John Layton
5-Jul-2018, 05:04
Eric...are you saying you get particles in your TF-4 during a fixing procedure - or do they show up afterwards? My concern here would be that if such particles were to present themselves during a procedure...then they might be apt to cause a bit of micro-scratching of negatives.

At any rate...do you then filter the solution - or do the particles get re-absorbed through agitation?

In my own experience I have not noticed such particulates in TF-4 once its been allowed to stabilize after mixing - but perhaps I need to give it a closer look!

esearing
5-Jul-2018, 12:31
I switched to TF5 after just one batch of TF4. I would use a liter for processing 8-10 4x5 negatives and would have enough particles that I had to filter. I do not know if they were silver particles or merely a compound coming out of solution. It still worked but I was more afraid it would leave black particles on the negatives.

TF5 doesn't seem to have the problem.
Ilford rapid fixer stock can fall out of solution but I can usually shake it up, or the particles are heavy enough they sink to bottom of container and are easily omitted.

I buy smaller quantities now too since I tend to work in spurts and mix as needed. Costs a bit more annually but gives me peace of mind.

Drew Wiley
5-Jul-2018, 13:07
Particles? I've been using TF4 for both film and paper for many years in numerous developers with no problems whatsoever. You do need to gently shake the
the bottle before pouring the stock solution to be diluted. And with new bottles, you might need to use a stir stick first. That is the only nuisance issue I can think of. If you are losing bits of emulsion, either you are developing way too warm, or else you're film is very old. Of course, I'm assuming you've correctly diluted the TF4 and are not using the concentrate directly. Always dilute and mix just enough concentrate immediately prior to the work session. If settling occurs during that, just gently agitate your bottles or trays right before the film goes to the fixer. I usually give TF4 a tiny swish just before pulling film from
the stop bath, which should be mild to prevent offsetting the alkalinity of the TF4. But I have no background with TF5. Why not just call the chemist at
Formulary?

tuco
7-Jul-2018, 15:06
I started using TF-4 with my pyro developer in the mid 90s, I switched to TF-5 for its odorless attribute. But TF-5 will smell a little when it gets near to exhaustion.

Gary L. Quay
24-Sep-2023, 11:30
I have been using TF-5 for PMK and 510-Pyro lately, and I have noticed that I am not getting good stain a lot of the time. I use a fresh water stop. I noticed that the fixer has a light yellow tint when I pour it back into the jug. Could this be the pyro stain being removed by the fixer? Does TF-4 work better for pyro?

Thanks!

Alan9940
24-Sep-2023, 11:49
I have been using TF-5 for PMK and 510-Pyro lately, and I have noticed that I am not getting good stain a lot of the time. I use a fresh water stop. I noticed that the fixer has a light yellow tint when I pour it back into the jug. Could this be the pyro stain being removed by the fixer? Does TF-4 work better for pyro?

Thanks!

I always had a bit of yellow tint in both TF-4 and TF-5 from stained negatives. Recently, I've returned to F-24 (which Gordon Hutchings mentions in his book) and the "yellow tint effect" is gone. Not sure what this means, exactly, but thought I'd mention it.

Michael R
24-Sep-2023, 12:23
I have been using TF-5 for PMK and 510-Pyro lately, and I have noticed that I am not getting good stain a lot of the time. I use a fresh water stop. I noticed that the fixer has a light yellow tint when I pour it back into the jug. Could this be the pyro stain being removed by the fixer? Does TF-4 work better for pyro?

Thanks!

No.

Drew Wiley
24-Sep-2023, 14:32
I used both in parallel over the summer, and now have switched over to TF5 entirely. I see no difference whatsoever in the pyro negs. And why would anyone pour spent fixer back into the jug? Or why would you omit a real stop bath?

paulbarden
24-Sep-2023, 15:51
I use PMK and Pyrocat HD, and have used both of those fixers and never had an issue with the fixer stripping off stain. In fact, I am developing HP5 and FP4 this afternoon, using PMK and TF-4, without issue.

Fred L
24-Sep-2023, 17:25
I used both in parallel over the summer, and now have switched over to TF5 entirely. I see no difference whatsoever in the pyro negs. And why would anyone pour spent fixer back into the jug? Or why would you omit a real stop bath?

I'm guessing I'm not the only one, but I make up 2 litres of working TF-5 and run that for less than the recommended number of rolls/sq inches of film before sending to the silver recovery. Nothing gets dumped back in with the concentrate. Crossed wires maybe ?

jp
24-Sep-2023, 17:31
I've used both fixers with fp4+and tmy2, with pyrocat hdc, hd, pmk. Never a problem.
Don't recommend using the same solution for film and paper in case dust/paper fibers end up in the tray, it won't affect your film originals. Use clean fixer for film that isn't used for anything else.
It's quite re-usable and I use it till it slows down a bit at clearing film scraps. I use water for stop bath; a couple rinses for film, and frequently changed water for paper

Doremus Scudder
24-Sep-2023, 17:35
The yellow tint you are seeing is not stain being stripped from the negative, it is simply carried-over developer oxidizing in the fix. A real stop bath and a water rinse (not really necessary) will prevent this, but it's not damaging to the fix.

If you are using hypo clear on your negatives, that's a possible source of your problem. Hutchings recommends not using a wash aid on pyro negatives. I haven't really tested it, though. I simply develop, stop, fix, rinse and wash for 30 minutes. Never a problem and always good stain.

Best,

Doremus

Andrew O'Neill
24-Sep-2023, 17:54
You do not need to use TF-4 or TF-5. I've been using Ilford MG Rapid fixer with Pyrocato-HD for years, with zero loss of stain. Check out a video I made several months ago. Skip to the 6 minute mark...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ldwmoiu6b4

Gary L. Quay
24-Sep-2023, 18:05
I used both in parallel over the summer, and now have switched over to TF5 entirely. I see no difference whatsoever in the pyro negs. And why would anyone pour spent fixer back into the jug? Or why would you omit a real stop bath?

It isn't spent. I use a test solution to determine when fixer is spent. The yellow, I was surmising, could be the pyro stain coming off in the fixer. I don't know for sure, which is why I was asking.

Gary L. Quay
24-Sep-2023, 18:08
The yellow tint you are seeing is not stain being stripped from the negative, it is simply carried-over developer oxidizing in the fix. A real stop bath and a water rinse (not really necessary) will prevent this, but it's not damaging to the fix.

If you are using hypo clear on your negatives, that's a possible source of your problem. Hutchings recommends not using a wash aid on pyro negatives. I haven't really tested it, though. I simply develop, stop, fix, rinse and wash for 30 minutes. Never a problem and always good stain.


I use HCA, so that may be the issue. I will omit it next time, and move back to a stop bath. Thanks!

Gary L. Quay
24-Sep-2023, 18:09
You do not need to use TF-4 or TF-5. I've been using Ilford MG Rapid fixer with Pyrocato-HD for years, with zero loss of stain. Check out a video I made several months ago. Skip to the 6 minute mark...


Thanks! I'll check it out.

Andrew O'Neill
25-Sep-2023, 05:10
Really? I've using Fujifilm's hypo clearing agent, QuickWash, for years and I've never noticed any stripping of stain. Mind you, that's the only HCA that I've ever used...

Michael R
25-Sep-2023, 05:30
In general unless really short on water a hypo clearing agent adds little value to film washing. That said, a hypo clearing agent should have no effect on stain. The active ingredient is sodium sulfite, which is present in at minimum the same concentration in fixer, so you cannot avoid it post-development anyway.

Regarding fixers, there is no necessity to use formulary products. TF-5 is a fine fixer but there is no problem using any other standard fixer - preferably a rapid fixer. The nice thing about TF-5 is it should have low odour as it is near neutral, but there are other options. Incidentally it is also perfectly ok (and generally advisable) to use a stop bath.

Doremus Scudder
25-Sep-2023, 10:18
Michael,

Good to know. My source was Hutchings' book about pyro; I've never tested whether a wash aid actually reduces stain in PMK negs. I don't use a wash aid for film anyway, so never really bothered with checking. It seems like there are several bits of misinformation in The Book of Pyro.

Best,

Doremus

Tin Can
25-Sep-2023, 10:30
Anecdotal

All

Every one of us has variations

But sone shout

Louder

Drew Wiley
25-Sep-2023, 11:12
One of the big advantages of TF4 and TF5 is that these wash out quite efficiently, especially in the case of film, and there is absolutely no reason to add a wash aid. These two specific fixers also remove any residual anti-halation dye better than conventional fixers.

Gordon Hutchings slightly modified his methodology over time, but most conspicuously between the first and second versions of his PMK handbook.

Pyrogallol is a permanently tanning developer, not just a stain like an ordinary dye.

Michael R
25-Sep-2023, 11:26
The tanning (cross linking of gelatin) action and dye formation are separate reactions, although both involving the oxidation products of the developing agent

My copy of The Book of Pyro is signed by Hutchings. Can I sell it to you? Collectors item! Or maybe they were all signed.


One of the big advantages of TF4 and TF5 is that these wash out quite efficiently, especially in the case of film, and there is absolutely no reason to add a wash aid. These two specific fixers also remove any residual anti-halation dye better than conventional fixers.

Gordon Hutchings slightly modified his methodology over time, but most conspicuously between the first and second versions of his PMK handbook.

Pyrogallol is a permanently tanning developer, not just a stain like an ordinary dye.

Drew Wiley
25-Sep-2023, 12:49
Already have my own signed copies. Besides, both have my own notes scribbled into them too, which should increase the collector value tenfold !

Michael R
25-Sep-2023, 13:05
Dang. I was hoping to replenish my hemorrhaging bank account.


Already have my own signed copies. Besides, both have my own notes scribbled into them too, which should increase the collector value tenfold !

Drew Wiley
25-Sep-2023, 18:59
Well, since used bookstore bins typically sell something like that for around two dollars, adding my own autograph to it would raise the price to twenty bucks. That would be painful for many, since they'd have to skip both a morning and an afternoon visit to the local Starbucks in order to afford it.