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dgc
3-Jul-2018, 08:43
I would welcome some comments on how my negatives ended up the way they have. I developed the film in ID-11 stock, in trays, with agitation every minute, after using the same developer for 2 reels of 120 film. The sky was completely blue and clear of clouds.

The first negative (lighthouse more central) there is a broad diagonal band top left - this seems to uniform to be a light-leak.

The 2nd negative (lighthouse right of centre) has uneven vertical banding to the left of the lighthouse, which is clearer in the print. I feel that this a result of the sloshing of the film in the tray during uneven agitation / development.

The negatives were taken backlit by my laptop screen and tend to show more unevenness that actually present on the negative.

Thanks.
David
180050180051180052

koraks
3-Jul-2018, 08:49
The diagonal band is extremely likely to be a light leak somewhere in the process - during loading, unloading or development of the film. But its fairly sharp delineation rules out a chemical nature of the fault.

The second image indeed shows issues that are most likely the result of the development regime. Usually insufficient agitation causes the kind of pattern that is present in the middle of the sheet, while excessive edge density (at the short ends of the film) tend to be caused by turbulence at the edges of too small a development tray. I would pick a bigger tray and increase agitation a bit. Agitation doesn't have to be vehement; just tilt the tray a bit, alternating between tilting the long and the short end of the tray. I get good results with continuous agitation.

Vaughn
3-Jul-2018, 08:52
Did you agitate for the first 30 to 60 seconds?

Make sure the film is emulsion side up in the tray. Edited to add: The mark on the first negative looks like one that is left by a piece of film sitting on a bottom of a tray face down with no agitation. Where the emulsion is over the groove of the tray, there is more development happening than where the film is resting directly against the plastic at the bottom of the tray.

I use constant agitation in trays. Look up brush development -- might be something that will help when you have large areas of even tonality (tho I do not have problems such as your with trays and constant agitation (4x5 to 11x14).

Peter Collins
3-Jul-2018, 09:31
Increase dilution so you can lengthen development time? Just a thought....

Peter Collins
3-Jul-2018, 09:31
Here's my complete reply. Computer/cable bandwidth problems here.

Increase dilution so you can lengthen development time? You write that you are using stock solution; that's a high-energy dilution, and I suspect your development times are too short. Should be at least 5 minutes, 7 - 10 minutes is better. ID-11 is, I recall, like D-76/HC-110; Kodak does not recommend times less than 5 minutes in at least some instances. Just a thought....

dentkimterry
3-Jul-2018, 09:32
Let me understand. You developed 2 120 rolls of film first and then re-used the same developer for the 4x10 film?
Perhaps the developer was already exhausted from the 120 rolls?
Best, Terry.

Christopher Barrett
3-Jul-2018, 09:59
Let me understand. You developed 2 120 rolls of film first and then re-used the same developer for the 4x10 film?
Perhaps the developer was already exhausted from the 120 rolls?
Best, Terry.

Yeah, that was my thought... I always one-shot my developer unless I'm working with a replenishment system.

Doremus Scudder
3-Jul-2018, 10:14
David,

You're being a bit skimpy with information. How long was your development time? What is your agitation regime? How many sheets of film are you developing at one time? Did you use a water pre-soak? These would help get you the answers you're looking for.

Nevertheless, let me throw some suggestions at you and see what happens.

First, if you suspect a light leak, check the film rebate. If it is also light-struck, it's happening out of camera, possibly in the darkroom. Check your darkroom for light leaks by turning out the lights and sitting there in the dark for 10 minutes. Check everywhere that the film could see. Put a mirror in your developing tray and look at that as well. I had some streaking problems from a small light leak above my developing tray that I could not see any other way. Any light you can see will fog your film.

Most of your defects appear to be agitation problems. For me, tray rocking is totally inadequate. I'd suggest that you lift your film out of the tray, rotate 180° and re-submerge. Do this constantly for the first 30-60 seconds and then once every 15-30 seconds after that.

The suggestions to find a developer dilution that allows you long enough developing times are good. A water pre-soak may help as well if you are not using one. Also, make sure the tray is large enough that you aren't making a lot of turbulence around the edges when agitating (tray rocking in a too-small tray will do this).

I can't suggest more until I know more about your method.

Best,

Doremus

Mark Sampson
3-Jul-2018, 12:34
Mr. Scudder's recommendations sound very good to me. I don't see developer exhaustion in your negatives, that just gives you flat thin negs.I will add that if you pre-soak your films (a good idea) put a pinch of Kodalk (balanced alkali) in the presoak tray; this will keep the films from sticking together in the tray. Precise users will make up a 1% Kodalk solution, as I did for a while- then I just put a pinch of the powder into a liter of water and used that. Works just as well.

Bruce Watson
3-Jul-2018, 12:48
I would welcome some comments on how my negatives ended up the way they have. I developed the film in ID-11 stock, in trays, with agitation every minute, after using the same developer for 2 reels of 120 film. The sky was completely blue and clear of clouds.

Perfectly clear skies make for nice linear gradients. The slightest problem is really visible. Clear skies are one of the real tests of your darkroom technique.

I could never hit the mark with trays. So I tried BTZS tubes, and still had problems. When I finally moved to a Jobo with a 3010 tank, I got perfectly even skies with no visible artifacts at all. Photograph after photograph after photograph.

But that doesn't really answer your questions -- it just points out the importance of agitation technique for getting good skies.

The problem is you're using roll film development techniques. That doesn't usually work well. Sheet film in tray development tends to want either more (continuous) agitation or less (stand or semi-stand) agitation. What it doesn't want is roll film (once a minute) agitation (which works OK with a tank like the Nikor 5x4 tank, possibly because it holds the film in the same orientation as your 120 reels do, but using a tank is a different animal than using trays).

Another thing that's important with sheet film is getting the whole sheet in the developer at the same time. If a corner is sticking out for a couple of seconds (that's all it takes) you can get marks like your first example. At least, I got marks like that when I was first starting out developing in trays because of my bad technique immersing the film. When I learned how to slip a sheet in with one quick movement that covered the sheet edge to edge, this problem went away for me. But I still had other problems with trays as I said above.

Lots of people get great results with tray developing. Indeed, that's probably the most used technique by far. But I was never any good at it. I hope you can get better, but if you don't there are other ways. Just sayin'...

Luis-F-S
3-Jul-2018, 16:17
Perfectly clear skies make for nice linear gradients. The slightest problem is really visible. Clear skies are one of the real tests of your darkroom technique.

I could never hit the mark with trays. So I tried BTZS tubes, and still had problems. When I finally moved to a Jobo with a 3010 tank, I got perfectly even skies with no visible artifacts at all. Photograph after photograph after photograph.

Pretty much why I process in tanks on hangers or in tubes. You can also see why we recommend folks to start out in 4x5 and not a larger format. Wastes less film when you make the stupid mistakes that we've all made! You've been given enough suggestions above with the information you provided to hopefully get you onto the right track. L

dgc
4-Jul-2018, 03:12
Many thanks for all your informative responses - very much appreciated.

Here are some more details:
1. I cut the film down from 8x10 into 4x10 sheets using a trimmer - so although undertaken in the dark there is potential for light leak, somewhere !
2. I used an orange filter and NDx64 filter resulting in an exposure of 50 seconds.
3. I understand stock ID-11 to be good for developing up to 10 films.
4. I compensated for prior developing activity by adding 1 minute to the development time of 8min 30 secs = 9 min 30 secs. Agitation was continuous for 1st minute and then approx. 10 secs every 1 minute of gentle sloshing from side to side. No pre-soak.
5. I processed the film in an 8x10 tray - I should have used a bigger one !

koraks - your points are noted, bigger tray and continuous agitation.
Vaughn - The emulsion was facing up, but I did struggle to get the film out of the holder and into the tray.
Peter Collins - see 4. above. Ok, this is something I will try. I understand that grain size with longer development is less of an issue with large format film, not that FP4 may be that much of an issue anyway.
dentkimkerry & Christopher Barrett - see 3. above. You are right though, it is not worth skimping on chemicals when considering the price of LF film.
Doremus Scudder - see all above! I did provide scant information, I was hoping that it may be a fairly obvious problem to more experienced darkroom users. You are quite right the variables in developing requires all information to be provided.
Mark Sampson - I am not aware of Kodalk, definitely worth considering. Though I would be worried about scratching the negatives if I developed two or more at the same time. Do you place one emulsion face down and the other up ? How long do you pre-soak ?
Bruce Watson - interesting and heartening to know we all go through the same learning curve ! I do wonder how an even coating of developer is over the film as it is developed, maybe my agitation was a little more rigorous than it should have been.
Luis F-S - I used the tray method (using HC-110 1:32) on the same day for some 4x5 and they turned out ok. I also use the Mod 54 and most negatives appear ok, though I have only taken about 25 4x5s !


Thanks again to all who responded. David

Doremus Scudder
4-Jul-2018, 10:34
David,

Now that we know more about what you did, here are my suggestions for improving unevenness due to agitation (others will likely have other, different suggestions):

First, do a pre-soak, 3 minutes minimum, to get the emulsion really soaked up. This attenuates the speed of developer infusion and gives you more time to get the film into the developing tray and totally immersed and begin agitation.

Use an 11x14 tray with plenty of developer. I'd use 1.5-2 liters. FWIW, there's nothing wrong with reusing developer and compensating for the loss in activity, but it is a bit hit-or-miss depending on the density of each individual neg. I'd likely use ID-11 1+1 and reuse it a time or two for single sheets, compensating for time for each subsequent sheet, or batch develop several sheets at once.

I think your agitation scheme is inadequate. Personally, I'd lift the neg out of the tray, rotate it end-for-end and re-immerse it to agitate. I'd do that continuously for the first 60 seconds (with your large negatives) and then once every 15 seconds thereafter till the end of development, being careful not to push the negative down into the developer (caused turbulence), rather gently sinking it using the balls of the fingers of both hands. If you want to stick with tray rocking, try lifting rather vigorously from each corner (gently up and quickly down) in an irregular manner (so as not to set up standing waves anywhere). Let the film float around freely in the tray. I'd do this in rather rapid succession for the first minute and then a few times around the tray every 30 seconds thereafter. I think just rocking from side to side is part of your problems here.

Your developing time seems long enough, so your problems are likely more agitation related. Develop a test negative with some featureless expanses in them with the above and see if that helps.

As for possible light leaks: do the inspections and try to give yourself a bit of time in the dark so your eyes can adjust before cutting, loading or unloading film. Look around before taking film out for possible leaks.

Best,

Doremus

C Henry
4-Jul-2018, 16:53
Hi David,

I'm a Welshman (living in England) that uses 4x10" and tray develops individual sheets with a similar method.

I use 650ml of developer (Pyrocat HD) in 12x10" trays, agitate, by lifting each side in a 10 second cycle ( a full clockwise cycle) - that is 24 lifts in the first minute, and then 4 per minute thereafter. I presoak my film (FP4+) for a minute or so.

Mark Sampson
4-Jul-2018, 20:23
David, for many years Kodak offered a chemical they called "Kodalk Balanced Alkali". Note the L in the product name. It is an ingredient in many developers. A 1% solution as your presoak bath will keep multiple sheets of film from sticking together when first wetted. I did regularly process 12 sheets of 4x5 in a tray; now I think 8 is safer (as far as handling goes). I don't think EK sells Kodalk any more; I buy "Balanced Alkali" from Photographer's Formulary in the USA. Not sure where you'll find it in the UK but it must be available from someone.

Merg Ross
4-Jul-2018, 21:13
David, for many years Kodak offered a chemical they called "Kodalk Balanced Alkali". Note the L in the product name. It is an ingredient in many developers. A 1% solution as your presoak bath will keep multiple sheets of film from sticking together when first wetted. I did regularly process 12 sheets of 4x5 in a tray; now I think 8 is safer (as far as handling goes). I don't think EK sells Kodalk any more; I buy "Balanced Alkali" from Photographer's Formulary in the USA. Not sure where you'll find it in the UK but it must be available from someone.

Excellent tip, Mark. I still have a small supply of Kodalk and use the 1% solution in a 5 minute presoak. I routinely tray develop 12 sheets (4x5) at a time. A substitute for Kodalk is marketed as Sodium Metaborate.

Huub
5-Jul-2018, 00:19
I cut the film down from 8x10 into 4x10 sheets using a trimmer - so although undertaken in the dark there is potential for light leak, somewhere !

When there are no obvious light leaks in your darkroom, any that remain would only add just a tiny bit to the base fog of the film as long as light doesn't hit the film directly. Furthermore: any uneveness caused by some kind of light leak before or after the film was put in a holder should expand into the rebates. To me those in the examples you show look pretty even.

dgc
5-Jul-2018, 01:38
Doremus - brilliant stuff ! The underlying message from you and all others is bigger trays and more agitation.
Carwyn - I was recently introduced to your work in a communication by Mike Walker and I am really enjoying your photographs. I am struggling to work out 24 lifts in 1 minute - that must be almost continuous cycling. When you say a 'full' complete cycle do you mean emulsion side up to emulsion up ?
Mark and Merg - Kodalk is something to consider.
Huub - I agree. The linearity and width of the 'stain' in the first negative is just very strange. I could understand if it was perpendicular to the film holder, where I may have 'brushed' the film during insertion/ removal etc.

David

Willie
5-Jul-2018, 10:19
You might try Brush Development. Pre-soak and brush the surface gently as you will when the negative goes into the developer. Emulsion side up so your brush strokes take care of any air bubbles before going further.

Use a Hake/Richeson Magic Brush and when the negetive goes into the developer you go up and down, then side to side. Then down and up, and side to side from the other end. Simple and you don't need to put pressure on the negative in the developer, just lightly across the surface.

Nice even development. Learned from my Uncle who learned from Jorge Gasteazoro who used to be on these forums. The procedure is simple and results in clean negatives without uneven development.

C Henry
5-Jul-2018, 14:22
Carwyn - I was recently introduced to your work in a communication by Mike Walker and I am really enjoying your photographs. I am struggling to work out 24 lifts in 1 minute - that must be almost continuous cycling. When you say a 'full' complete cycle do you mean emulsion side up to emulsion up ?


David


Sorry, need to clairfy. I leave my negatives emulsion side up. They are presoaked in water beofre I slip into the developer. I then start my timer. I agitate continuously for the first minute, by lifting a side of the tray (short side) off the surface, then dropping it gently which takes about two seconds, I then move my hand clockwise to the next side (long side) and do the same. I do this to all four sides within 10 seconds ( so a total of six times in the first minute). For the remainder of the development, I do this to all four sides once - 10 seconds per minute... it's my adaptation for intermittent agitation as performed with roll film.
I've tried shuffling film, but I think it's difficult for long negatives like this, 5x4 and 7x5 are far easier...

I hope that's clearer. Shout if not.

Car

dgc
6-Jul-2018, 08:12
Sorry, need to clairfy. I leave my negatives emulsion side up. They are presoaked in water beofre I slip into the developer. I then start my timer. I agitate continuously for the first minute, by lifting a side of the tray (short side) off the surface, then dropping it gently which takes about two seconds, I then move my hand clockwise to the next side (long side) and do the same. I do this to all four sides within 10 seconds ( so a total of six times in the first minute). For the remainder of the development, I do this to all four sides once - 10 seconds per minute... it's my adaptation for intermittent agitation as performed with roll film.
I've tried shuffling film, but I think it's difficult for long negatives like this, 5x4 and 7x5 are far easier...

I hope that's clearer. Shout if not.

Car

That makes perfect sense, for some reason I had in my mind you were lifting the negative rather than the tray.

dgc
6-Jul-2018, 08:20
You might try Brush Development. Pre-soak and brush the surface gently as you will when the negative goes into the developer. Emulsion side up so your brush strokes take care of any air bubbles before going further.

Use a Hake/Richeson Magic Brush and when the negetive goes into the developer you go up and down, then side to side. Then down and up, and side to side from the other end. Simple and you don't need to put pressure on the negative in the developer, just lightly across the surface.

Nice even development. Learned from my Uncle who learned from Jorge Gasteazoro who used to be on these forums. The procedure is simple and results in clean negatives without uneven development.

Thanks for this, though I would only be tempted to use this method using ortho film and red light!

ic-racer
7-Jul-2018, 19:48
If not fresh film, try again with fresh film.