Formulary Polysulfide toner misbehaving?

[paulbarden]

I recently acquired a package of Photographers Formulary Polysulfide Toner, and yesterday I opted to mix it up and use it to tone some 8X10 contact prints I made on MGIV FB. This is the first time I've used this toner, so I have some questions, since it didn't behave as I expected.
When I mixed the solid into RO water (4ppm TDS), it didn't exactly "dissolve"; it made a messy slurry that looked as if I had dumped a handful of volcanic ash into the water. Twenty minutes of stirring and it still looked like that, so I continued with adding the second component and mixed it. I have no idea if that was normal for this toner, but I suspect not, as I toned one of my prints in it for 25 minutes at 75F and I had great difficulty in seeing a difference between the toned print and the un-toned ones. I expected after 25 minutes that I'd have something more along the lines of the "rich, chocolate brown tones" this toner is supposedly capable of producing (my print doesn't come remotely close to that description). I had to wipe a heck of a lot of scum off the print in the wash water as well.
So, can anybody who's used this toner advise me? Is this normal for this toner (including the subtle result) or have I been sold a bad/expired batch of toner? I doubt "user error" is a factor, but I won't assume so.

[faberryman]

Your toner, if fresh, should have dissolved, and certainly shown an effect after 25 minutes. It doesn't get scummy with a precipitate until I have run a lot of prints through it. I then filter it and add the little packet to rejuvinate it.

[LabRat]

What does it smell like ??? Usually if the toner has turned, there is a horrible sulfur smell from sulfurization and a insoluble layer in the solution bottle that forms...

The precipitate should be yellow/white, but if dark, might be silver in a well used solution... Some silver is needed to ripen solution, but if excessive needs to be replaced...

This type of toner can sometimes turn bad, even new due to the high concentrations present, even before use...

If in doubt, throw it out...

Steve K

[paulbarden]

Your toner, if fresh, should have dissolved, and certainly shown an effect after 25 minutes. My polysulfide toner doesn't get scummy with a precipitate until I have run a lot of prints through it. I then filter it and add the little packet to rejuvinate it.

Thank you, Frank. That's what I suspected. I am pretty certain that my toner was old or had been stored improperly before I got it, as it clearly did NOT dissolve as I expected it should (great swirling chunks of debris in a murky slurry of suspended ash). I guess I need to find out where I bought it and let them know I got a bad pack.


What does it smell like ??? Usually if the toner has turned, there is a horrible sulfur smell from sulfurization and a insoluble layer in the solution bottle that forms...
This type of toner can sometimes turn bad, even new due to the high concentrations present, even before use...
Steve K

There was no appreciable sulfur smell to it, no. But there is 1/4" of grey sludge on the bottom of the storage bottle right now. I would say that no more than half the solids actually went into solution after 25 minutes of stirring. I bet my package was either very old or had been stored improperly. Thanks for your input, Steve.

[LabRat]

Trying to remember now, but how warm was the mixing solution??? I seem to remember it had to be very hot...

You might be able to re-heat the solution and see if this helps dissolve the solids... But do it in an old see through bottle (like a 2 ltr soda bottle) so you can see what is going on and throw out if it ruined and you don't ruin a mixing container...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[Willie]

Good luck getting Formulary to take care of you on this.
Their practices get a lot of business for Artcraft. http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/

No, I don't work for them. Just experiences with Formulary that had me looking elsewhere. Artcraft has been excellent.

[paulbarden]

Trying to remember now, but how warm was the mixing solution??? I seem to remember it had to be very hot...

Steve K

Steve,
The mixing instructions state that you must start with 750 ml of water at 68F, and so I did. I may experiment with heating it to see if the solids go into solution, but I'm skeptical that anything will come of it.


Good luck getting Formulary to take care of you on this.
Their practices get a lot of business for Artcraft. http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/

No, I don't work for them. Just experiences with Formulary that had me looking elsewhere. Artcraft has been excellent.

I think I may come to the same conclusion as well, Willie. I bought the toner from Freestyle, and so I have contacted them to describe the problem. But even if they do send me a replacement package, who's to say I won't be getting another bad/expired batch? I think I will just order from Artcraft in the meantime.....

[paulbarden]

Good luck getting Formulary to take care of you on this.
Their practices get a lot of business for Artcraft. http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/

No, I don't work for them. Just experiences with Formulary that had me looking elsewhere. Artcraft has been excellent.

Willie,
I don't see that Artcraft sells the components for Polysulfide toner, or am I mistaken?

[faberryman]

What does it smell like ??? Usually if the toner has turned, there is a horrible sulfur smell from sulfurization and a insoluble layer in the solution bottle that forms...
I forgot to mention that it has a strong smell of rotten eggs, which is why I tone with it on my back porch.

[bob carnie]

I forgot to mention that it has a strong smell of rotten eggs, which is why I tone with it on my back porch.

You neighbours must love you when they are bbquing .

[paulbarden]

I forgot to mention that it has a strong smell of rotten eggs, which is why I tone with it on my back porch.

The toner I mixed had absolutely NO smell to it whatsoever. That too suggests my packet of toner was defunct.

[esearing]

Get the Thiourea sepia kit. Easy to mix and you can vary the tones from golden/sepia to warm chocolate by using more or less of Thiourea to Sodium Hydroxide. Bleaching gives you some control if you want to vary the tonality in highlights vs shadows.
If you decide you like sepia toning with Thiourea, the bulk components are readily available and cheap -ish at Artcraft.
Also the RC paper does not tone very well for me. Fiber paper does and warmtone papers tone easily in it.

And if your budget can accommodate - Nelsons Gold Toner which is used at 100+ degrees gives a lovely warm brown to chocolate tone on Fiber paper. But it does not go into solution easily either, but still works assuming you can maintain temperature.

[koraks]

A thiourea toner is indeed very flexible and doesn't smell. Since you only need a tiny bit of thiourea to tone a few prints, toxicity issues can be controlled quite well.

Different papers respond very differently to toning; some RC papers tone very well; warmtone papers (RC and fiber) tend to tone strongly and easily and tend towards more yellow-brown tones while neutral papers are easier to tone towards a chocolate brown. Any paper can be toned to a yellow-brown tone with subtle bleaching and a lower NaOH-thiourea ratio (relatively low pH). Bleaching and toning appear to be enhanced by using a warmtone paper developer to develop the prints - which I find is true for any toner. YMMV of course.

Thiourea fogs unexposed halides, so make sure not to use a contaminated NaOH or K2CO3 activator solution as e.g. the activator bath for your pyrocat or other film developer (yes, I found out the hard way). However, thiourea doesn't fume like sulfide does, and I understand sulfide brings the risk of fogging materials stored in the same room where you do the toning because of this. I haven't tried this though (and I probably won't either).

A thiourea toner is extremely straightforward to mix up from scratch, but commercial products are evidently fine as well and usually come with clear instructions on mixing ratios and resulting image tone.

Given the ease of use, versatility, speed and keeping qualities, I have never felt the need to "revert" to sulfide toners.

[LabRat]

Thiourea is also toxic, and contaminates work areas easily, so consider that... A sloppy worker will start getting spots on other work if not carefully handled/cleaned-up...

I did a lot of toning years ago, but evolved to understand to make the most out of the natural beauty materials can produce if well done...

Steve K