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View Full Version : Why aren't bag bellows used more?



bieber
24-Jun-2018, 22:55
I was shooting outside with my kit indoors today. I started with a 75mm lens so I had the bag bellows on my P2, and then at some point I decided I wanted a tight view so I went in to get my 360. Only once I got back to the camera did I realize that I hadn't thought to switch the bellows, so I figured eh, what the hell, why not just see if the bag will extend far enough.

And interestingly, it did. I ended up needing to put the standards all the way to the edges of the standard rail, plus moving the rear standard back a little farther with fine focus, and the bag bellows accommodated it with room to spare (plus some significant rise/fall/shift on both standards). So given that, why is it that the standard bellows type is the standard? It seems like a single bag bellows can pretty comfortably accommodate all the way from wide angle down to a fairly long focus lens, but the standard bellows can't match the wide-angle performance. Is there some disadvantage to the bag bellows that I'm missing, because it seems like it would be a handy thing to just use all the time, unless you need really long extension

LabRat
25-Jun-2018, 01:17
You don't get a big IC with UWA lenses, and they have a more natural falloff and distortion if you keep movements to a minimum, so you usually don't need the bellows to flex that much under 75mm... With a 90mm, it will allow you to use much more due to the IC, and minimum falloff...

Also, the bag bels tend to be less compact with the camera closed than regular bellows...

But whatever works with the way you work is OK...

Steve K

rdenney
25-Jun-2018, 06:29
There is no disadvantage to using bag bellows, except that with the camera packed the bellows are outside the enclosure rather than inside the enclosure. The Sinar Wide Angle Bellows 2 (with two pleats) are my standard bellows--the standard bag bellows may go longer but these will go shorter. But they aren't long enough for those longer lenses when focusing close, even if they work at infinity.

And with longer lenses, the bag bellows may become tight and constrained and won't support movements as well as a pleated bellows. If I'm doing a table-top product photograph with that 360mm lens, I might need all 20 inches of the standard pleated bellows, and the bellows will let me tilt the lens significantly at the same time.

I keep a standard bellows in my Sinar camera cases, and I can use them as a compendium shade, or switch them into the camera in the rare case when the WA Bellows 2 isn't enough.

Rick "who has to fold the sides of the bellows carefully when putting the camera back in the case" Denney

jim10219
25-Jun-2018, 07:07
I don't like using bag bellows on my Sinar F1 because they tend to get in my way. They like to bunch up along the bottom rail, and sometimes I have to pull them out at the corners so they don't collapse into the image circle. It's not a big deal. They work fine in practice, but they do present those extra issues that my standard bellows don't.

I have the 360mm Tele-Xenar as my longest lens, and like you, I can pretty much use any of my lenses with the bag bellows, unless I'm focusing close up. But I only really NEED the bag bellow for my 90mm when I'm doing extreme movements, or my 65mm (Probably. It's has no room for movements and I've never tried it without the bag bellows, so maybe the regular bellows will compress far enough?). So for most of my shots, either bellows works fine. It's just the extreme examples that require a specific type of bellows.

My guess that the reason that bag bellows aren't standard is that they're nontraditional. They may also be more expensive or prone to pinholes, seeing as how they are a made of different materials. I'm just glad that on my Sinar, the bellows are super quick and easy to swap, and don't take up all that much room to store. Plus, their dual use as a compendium is nice, and used prices aren't too bad.

Though I will say that I'm a bit surprised that I don't see them as standard on more field cameras. Typically, I use my Sinar F1 either in the "studio" (at home) or for architecture photography (out of the trunk of my car). My landscape camera is a Speed Graphic, and while bag bellows wouldn't make much sense on that one due to the limited movements, if I had a proper field camera capable of some decent movement, I could definitely see how bag bellows would be more useful to me than the standard accordion type.

Jac@stafford.net
25-Jun-2018, 08:09
I don't like using bag bellows on my Sinar F1 because they tend to get in my way. They like to bunch up along the bottom rail

That is interesting. Would longer standards columns help?

Alan9940
25-Jun-2018, 09:01
For my Arca-Swiss F-Line 4x5, I use what they call a Universal bellows for my shorter lenses--75mm, 120mm, etc. However, this bellows doesn't allow extension much beyond about 210mm. Therefore, when I want to use my 300mm or 450mm I need to switch to a long bellows which allows that much extension. The long bellows, however, is my too bunched up to be usable for the 75mm.

Bernice Loui
25-Jun-2018, 09:07
On the 5x7 Sinar Norma, no significant penalty for using a bag bellows as the standard bellows. The 5x7 rear standard is larger than the front standard. This allows the bag bellows over hang to fold forward and tuck out of the way when the camera is packed.

Bag bellows is ideal for wide angle lenses as it allows ease of camera movements with lenses down to 47mm (recessed board helps) and on the 5x7 Norma extends enough for a 240mm lens at infinity. For longer focal length lenses, the standard bellows is easy to install, if a longer bellows is needed, add rails as needed and a intermediate standard as needed with the proper camera support. Combine this with a Sinar shutter makes the Sinar system extremely adaptable for most any lens chosen and image making need.


Bernice

Dan Fromm
25-Jun-2018, 10:39
In the Cambo system, fully compressed standard bellows are thicker than fully compressed bag bellows. So a bag bellows allows shorter lenses to be focused to infinity and used with movements than the standard bellows does. Extended, the standard bellows is longer than the bag. So the standard bellows allows closer focusing, given focal length, and can focus a longer focal length to infinity than a bag bellows.

I assembled a hybrid Cambo -- 2x3 front standard, 4x5 rear -- to be able to use lenses mounted on 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic boards to shoot 6x12 (I have a 2x3 Cambo board that accepts 2x3 Pacemaker boards), bought a factory tapered standard bellows and made a tapered bag bellows. My little tapered bag bellows is shorter than the factory one, and of course much shorter than the standard. No good for lenses longer than around 90 mm. This is an extreme example of bag bellows shorter than standard.

Cambo made at least two vintages of bag bellows, older of very thin leather and newer of heavy synthetic. The old ones are very limp, like Jim10219 I've had problems with sag when using lenses that weren't very short with mine.

jim10219
25-Jun-2018, 11:13
That is interesting. Would longer standards columns help?

Yeah. I usually have mine set to the center height. I could raise them fully and take care of that issue, but then I would have to do back drop instead of front rise, which isn't what I'm used to, when shooting buildings.

In any case, it's not really a big deal. If they bunch up, you just pull them out. It's not like you have to continuously fight them. It's just the one reason why I typically keep my accordion bellows on as my standard bellows.

Jac@stafford.net
25-Jun-2018, 13:04
Yeah. I usually have mine set to the center height. I could raise them fully and take care of that issue, but then I would have to do back drop instead of front rise, which isn't what I'm used to, when shooting buildings.

Thanks for answering. That makes perfect sense. I happened to be considering making new columns for my Alpina/Lecom.
Very Best,
jac

Drew Wiley
25-Jun-2018, 16:40
I only used a bag bellows on my Sinar 4x5 for wide-angle interior shots requiring quite a bit of rise or other contortions. The conventional Sinar box bellows
which comes standard with F,C,P, and X cameras has problems if it's scrunched up. The older tapered Norma bellows is much more versatile at either short or extra long extensions. Too bad they stopped making it, but apparently did so due to cost. I lucked out finding a couple of mint ones. But in the past I worked
mostly with long lenses, and Horseman offered a 28-inch bellows that didn't sag (no need of an intermediate support standard), and fit Sinar too.

neil poulsen
26-Jun-2018, 06:28
There is no disadvantage to using bag bellows, except that with the camera packed the bellows are outside the enclosure rather than inside the enclosure. . . .

That was a problem w/ Sinars that I had. So, I "shrank" them to a size that was more convenient.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?136313-Sinar-Elephant-Ears-Bag(gy)-Bellows

While I still have a Norma 4x5 as a backup, I use Arca Swiss. I like the pleated leather bellows they make which are useful (w/movements) for lenses and from 75mm SW's up to about 180mm. Shorter lenses can require a conventional bag bellows.

The Arca conical (4x5 back to 6x9 front) pleated leather bellows can easily be used for a 47mm lenses with a recessed lensboard. A conventional bag bellows is available, but not needed.