Pyrocat HD source?

[slimkane]

Where do you guys get your pyrocat HD. I see photographers formulary has a powder kit but it doesn't specify if it is part A and B or if its both together.

Are there any sources for pyrocat HD in premixed liquid form?

[Corran]

PF sells liquid kits too.

[angusparker]

PF sells liquid kits too.

Get the A+B Glycol versión, it keeps well. You mix just prior to use as a one shot.


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[koraks]

Any commercial product will always be a and b separately. Combined it lasts half an hour or an hour or so; it oxidizes very rapidly (which, of course, is its essence!)

[Roger Thoms]

Get the A+B Glycol versión, it keeps well. You mix just prior to use as a one shot.


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My recommendation too, this is exactly what I do, and for me the beauty is that it keeps extremely well. I buy the Glycol version from Photographers Formulary.

Roger

[Greg Y]

Likewise the PF Pyrocat HD in glycol 50 litre kit 01-5093 $36.95 one bottle @ of A & B

[esearing]

If you only process a few negatives per month there is also a smaller 10 liter kit. If you get any cross contamination in part A it will go bad quickly. I had a batch go bad when I mixed up the bottle lids and it would not fully develop using my normal times.

This year, I bought a 10 liter kit and a 50 liter kit. I use the 10 liter kit with dedicated syringes until about half full and then top up from the 50 liter kit. If I somehow cross contaminate the smaller kit the loss is not as much.
You could do the same by using smaller bottles if you have them on hand.
Label your bottles and lids, syringes, and any other labware you use with PyrocatHD and use them the same way every time. You can get label maker tape that is chemical resistant (if you are nerd like me).
Store in a stable temperature controlled environment for best long term use.

[Roger Thoms]

Good point about cross contamination, I also used a labeled everything with big A’s and B’s to keep things straight and I also decant into smaller bottles from a 50ml kit.

Roger

[Fred L]

I used to use syringes for PMK pyro but have been using pipettes (bought from a member here) and find them easier to use, of course, ymmv

not sure how they'll work for Pyrocat in glycol though

[Alan9940]

Since I mix my own, I only mix 250ml at a time (in glycol) and store in brown glass bottles. I use separate A and B syringes to measure out for development.

[Michael Kadillak]

I mix my own Pyrocat HD a gallon at a time (in my backyard or in my open door garage with breathing protection) with distilled water and keep it in amber bottles and even though I process a lot of sheet film, it still takes me 12-18 months to use up the developer and have never experienced any loss in effectiveness with oxidation for which the glycol option is considered the operational "hedge". IMHO Pyrocat HD is easy to mix which concurrently makes it the least expensive developer to use with only the basics of lab equipment needed. Mix this chemistry yourself as well as all of your other photographic chemicals and purchase film and photographic paper with the savings.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Mix from scratch. Glycol is awesome but I only used it once... I go through a lot of developer so not worth it. Glycol is EXPENSIVE to bring it up here.

[Fred L]

Mix from scratch. Glycol is awesome but I only used it once... I go through a lot of developer so not worth it. Glycol is EXPENSIVE to bring it up here.

am waiting to hear back from Jacques at Argentix to see what he charges for the large size.

[esearing]

No need for glycol if you make smaller volumes or can store in smaller volumes without air. I buy the premixed because I am low volume shooter and 50L kit will last for a year's worth of film.
Do you have the equivalent of an "ArtCraft" chemistry provider in Canada?

[esearing]

I also just noticed that the amount of Potassium Bromide (restrainer) is different between the Water and Glycol versions at PF. That may or may not make a difference in development time but buy the one you intend to use long term.

[David Schaller]

I mixed my own for the first time last year, and used the same development times as I had for years with the glycol version.

[jp]

If you use your pyrocat hd kit slowly, dispense the 500ml concentrate part-A into 100 or 250ml glass bottles and it will last even longer as long as they are airtight and not opened till needed. Part-B is just to change the PH into a working range and lasts very well.

If you make it yourself, try pyrocat hdc, which has one less ingredient to hunt down and is similar otherwise.

For Glycol I used https://www.amazon.com/Hercules-35253-Cryo-Tek-TM-Original/dp/B00IG45P7K/ Cryo-Tek antifreeze which I bought at a local hardware store. The concentrate is blue (like 2000 flushes). It loses the blue and turns amber as soon as part-B is added.

[Jim Noel]

I have mixed my own Pyrocat HD since before it was available commercially. I mix Part A in glycol and use it over an extended period of time. Never a problem mixing or using. I did try some commercial but ended up throwing it away because it did not work as well.

[Michael Kadillak]

All this post has been doing is dancing around an obscure concept. For the benefit of all lets cut directly to the chase.

I feel it would be enormously beneficial for someone to simply and clearly post the costs of Pyrocat HD glycol and distilled (i.e. no glycol) for a standard reasonable volume unit of the developer standardized off of what the Formulary sells it for.

1) The costs in kit for for glycol and non glycol from the Formulary.

2) The costs to mix it from scratch broken out by component costs (chemical costs divided by the weight used to make the standard volume) so the readers can compare apples to apples.

3) The same costs to mix it from scratch including the cost glycol.

I realize there are forum readers that are in more challenging places of the world to get necessary chemicals hence the desire to see the cost analysis by component.

I will start the process and explain the methodology.

being extremely conservative I am adding 20% to the costs of the bulk chemical components from the Formulary online for shipping here is what it takes me to mix 3 liters of Pyrocat HD in this cost comparison:

Sodium Bisulfite ($6/100 grams) need 30 grams - cost component for 3 liters is $1.80

Pyro Catechol ($55/1# or 373 grams) need 150 grams - cost component for 3 liters is $22

Phenidone ($32/100 grams) - need 6 grams - cost component for 3 liters is $1.92

Potassium Bromide ($7.20/100 grams) - need 3 grams - cost component for 3 liters is $0.22

All in I am spending $26 to mix 3 liters of Pyrocat HD from scratch or $8.65/liter of concentrate.

The Formulary sells liquid kits for $19 (glycol I guess costs the same) that produce 10 liters of working developer using the 1:1:100 concentration. You have to read the tech listing to see what the kits can do. So one liter of 1:1 100 usable developer costs $1.90.

Mixing it yourself the costs per liter is $0.085/liter of working solution at 1:1:100. That is a mark up of 22X for the liquid kits relative to the real costs of the materials as listed above. Now maybe folks can properly wrap their head around this issue that has been obscure for some time. As much of this developer as I end up using buying mixed kits would be a foolish proposition as I would be buying them in lots of 10.

Maybe someone can addd the glycol component costs to the cost comparison. Conclusion - Pyrocat HD is the cheapest and most efficient developer one can use as long as you mix it yourself. Plus IMHO the glycol is unnecessary. All of the folks that espouse its needs have never mentioned a failure that caused them to go this route. In 10 years I have never missed a beat using distilled water. Why change if it does not cause a problem?

[Corran]

You forget that PF sells 50 liter kits for only twice as much as the 10 liter. That's what I bought last time, and I'm about 2/3 through the kit. This larger kit is $37

Per your post, 3 liters of undiluted Pyro costs you $26. This will mix 300 liters at standard dilution so 6x the amount of the PF kit.

So the upcharge is more reasonably 9x in comparison if looking at the larger kit.

Thank you for doing the comparison. Personally right now I don't want that kind of volume nor do I want to compound those items so I'm okay spending 9x, especially considering the possibility of waste due to age at my volume (I only use Pyrocat with certain films). Others may be different.

[Greg Y]

Michael K, The 50 litre kit from the Formulary is $36.95 which amounts to $0.74 / litre....plenty cheap in my book. I usually go through one kit a year. That's 11x by your calculations. Even 22x the materials cost would be worth it to me. Bud has land buildings, employees, phones, infrastructure, website cost, packaging & shipping costs. By the time I pay for shipping chemicals,buying a respirator, driving my car to pick up things that are available in town, paying for and carrying over bulk amounts, it's not worth it to me....& that doesn't factor in the value of my time. I don't scrimp on film by using X-ray film rather than FP4+ or TMY-2 & I'm certainly not going to quibble over the cost of what is essentially a very cost effective developer. I'm happy the Formulary is still in business.

[Michael Kadillak]

You forget that PF sells 50 liter kits for only twice as much as the 10 liter. That's what I bought last time, and I'm about 2/3 through the kit. This larger kit is $37

Per your post, 3 liters of undiluted Pyro costs you $26. This will mix 300 liters at standard dilution so 6x the amount of the PF kit.

So the upcharge is more reasonably 9x in comparison if looking at the larger kit.

Thank you for doing the comparison. Personally right now I don't want that kind of volume nor do I want to compound those items so I'm okay spending 9x, especially considering the possibility of waste due to age at my volume (I only use Pyrocat with certain films). Others may be different.

I understand that the cost disparity goes down as the kit size goes up but in a similar note you can buy the bulk chemicals in smaller quantities as well.

The reason that I took the time to post at least a start on the component analysis is I continue to hear large format photographers rail about the price of admission in this eclectic venue. Film, paper, chemicals etc. I am inherently driven to find solutions and therein is my incentive. There is an old axiom that says you cannot ever expect to solve a problem until you decide to own it. All I was attempting to point out is whatever your personal film developing commitment is to any developer or quantity of processing you can save a ton by a modest commitment to acquiring a few simple inexpensive mixing components and always be capable of fresh chemistry rather than waiting for the post man to get you back in the darkroom. I find that the more "capability" I have in the execution department the more liberating I find myself in the vision and image execution department in the field which is progress from my perspective.

[Greg Y]

As far as wasting time waiting for the postman, it's a matter of staying on top of your chemical needs and ordering or buying in advance of your needs. Much more significant than saving pennies on developer....it's the $420 / 50 sheets of 20x24 Ilford warmtone & what roughly $280/50 sheets of 5x7 TMY-2 that makes a cost difference.
All the OP asked was....where is Pyrocat available....

[Michael Kadillak]

As far as wasting time waiting for the postman, it's a matter of staying on top of your chemical needs and ordering or buying in advance of your needs. Much more significant than saving pennies on developer....it's the $420 / 50 sheets of 20x24 Ilford warmtone & what roughly $280/50 sheets of 5x7 TMY-2 that makes a cost difference.
All the OP asked was....where is Pyrocat available....

You have no control over your "choice" of film and paper as it is out of your hands unless you opt to coat plates or paper. All you can decide is if it you are willing to pay the asking price or defer. The wining about the market going in a direction that is not of ones choosing does not mean anything to me. I am simply focusing on the components we have the potential of controlling. Fact of the matter is that I am going to pay Ilfords price because I am respectful of their need to make a profit.

[Greg Y]

"Fact of the matter is that I am going to pay" Photo Formulary's "price because I am respectful of their need to make a profit." end rant :-)

[jp]

I used to order the Photographers Formulary Pyrocat HD in glycol 50L kit from B&H since that's quick and free shipping for me. It's a lot of great developer for reasonable money. Now, it's special order, non-stock. But if I order from Formulary, it costs nearly 50% extra for shipping. It is a high quality product, and if you're tight on space for bulk chemicals or don't use that much, it's probably not worth accumulating $100+ in bulk chemicals and labware to save money over a few years on pyrocat hd. I use it for everything and use an above average amount, so I've started mixing pyrocat hdc for myself.

[mat4226]

Great job with the per Liter cost breakdown Michael. Last time I ran the numbers, cost to process each sheet of B&W 8x10" film is ~ $0.03, and $0.06 if I'm using glycol. I can't think of a most cost effective developer for a hobbyist film shooter!

[sanking]

That would be true not only comparing PyrocatHD mixed in water or in glycol, but also in comparing PyrocatHD with any of the other versions of Pyrocat, such as -HDC, -MC, -M and P. They are all "minor" variations of the basic formula, and the exact mix of each version was carefully formulated to give the same CI with a given film and type of development.

The -M, -MC and -P versions were designed to give slightly greater acutance than -HD or -HDC with a specific type of development, but acutance can also be controlled by dilution of the working solution and by type of agitation.

Sandy





I mixed my own for the first time last year, and used the same development times as I had for years with the glycol version.

[Michael Kadillak]

Great job with the per Liter cost breakdown Michael. Last time I ran the numbers, cost to process each sheet of B&W 8x10" film is ~ $0.03, and $0.06 if I'm using glycol. I can't think of a most cost effective developer for a hobbyist film shooter!

Aside from the cost benefits and the longevity, the developer has unique performance properties that allow the photographer to use dilution as a surgical instrument in controlling expansion and contraction any number of ways with enormous success. Sandy Kings contribution of Pyrocat to the photographic world was truly a wonderful thing.

[Greg Y]

Michael Kadillak: "Sandy Kings contribution of Pyrocat to the photographic world was truly a wonderful thing"
Absolutely! Kudos & great appreciation to Sandy King. It's a beautiful developer & has certainly made my printing life easier.

[Merg Ross]

Sandy Kings contribution of Pyrocat to the photographic world was truly a wonderful thing.

Indeed! Thank you, Sandy.

[Jim Galli]

Indeed! Thank you, Sandy.

+ 1 more! I mix the stuff up with tap water and sometimes it sits in my old soda pop bottles for a year. Never ever had a problem. I buy the different components from Ebay sellers in bulk, so my "soup" for the JOBO runs is pennies.

[Jan Becket]

Speaking of Sandy King, I have been using one of his suggested Pyrocat HD workflows in which film is processed sequentially in parts A and B, which are not mixed. Works pretty well in a JOBO.

[sanking]

Speaking of Sandy King, I have been using one of his suggested Pyrocat HD workflows in which film is processed sequentially in parts A and B, which are not mixed. Works pretty well in a JOBO.

For those who may not be familiar with this work flow, you can read about the pros and cons in this article.
http://pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html

And thanks for the kind remarks about my role in the development of Pyrocat. I did the research and testing for the formula in the mid-1990s and discussed many of my ideas on film development in the rec.photo.darkroom discussion group. The name Pyrocat was first used in an article on the formula published in Judy Seigel's Post-Factory Photography in 1999. By some unfortunate twist of fate I have an entire set of Post-Factory Photography, except for the issue that contains the article on Pyrocat!!

Sandy

[koraks]

And thanks for the kind remarks about my role in the development of Pyrocat.
And well-deserved as well. Pyrocat has been my go-to developer for a while now and I still like it a lot. I haven't found anything that gives a better balance between image quality, versatility (also for alt. process negatives), economy and keeping qualities. Pyrocat, for me, is the superior option out of anything I have tried.