anyone tried carbon fiber?

[Havoc]

I'm always on the lookout for lighter gear, doesn't have to be smaller. A wooden 4x5 field camera would be lighter then the Wista. But I'm not a woodworker and I'm not a diehard traditionalist. And I'm in a country that isn't renowned for its fine weather. As carbon is used extensively for tripods these days that made me wonder if it would be possible to make something like the Wista but in carbon fiber. The raw materials are not that hard to get. On the other hand I never worked with it. So any feedback is interesting.

[mpirie]

Do a search for Carbon Infinity cameras. VERY nice, VERY expensive and VERY hard to find.

Mike

[Keith Pitman]

Toyo 45CF.

[jp]

I've only worked in fiberglass on boats for casual projects... My understanding is that carbon fiber's strength-to-weight ratio comes from the ability to remove most of the resin that adds weight, leaving strong carbon fiber with just enough resin to hold it together and provide a smooth surface. This is usually done with vacuum bagging, autoclaves, etc.. Processes that drives up labor costs greatly. If you want CF for the look, just do it.. If you want it for weight savings it gets expensive.

[Oren Grad]

Do a search for Carbon Infinity cameras. VERY nice, VERY expensive and VERY hard to find.

...and it didn't actually save any weight compared to the metal Wistas...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?1026-CARBON-INFINITY-CAMERA-5-X4&p=80994&viewfull=1#post80994

OTOH, the Toyo 45CF certainly did...

http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45CF/45CF.html

...compared to the 45A series, though the CF had its share of quality control problems; even with a factory at one's disposal, it's not necessarily straightforward to do CF on the cheap.

[mpirie]

True Oren, but i doubt many of them saw active service in the field :cool:

[Oren Grad]

True Oren, but i doubt many of them saw active service in the field :cool:

True! Or anywhere else, for that matter. < g >

[Bob Salomon]

...and it didn't actually save any weight compared to the metal Wistas...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?1026-CARBON-INFINITY-CAMERA-5-X4&p=80994&viewfull=1#post80994

OTOH, the Toyo 45CF certainly did...

http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45CF/45CF.html

...compared to the 45A series, though the CF had its share of quality control problems; even with a factory at one's disposal, it's not necessarily straightforward to do CF on the cheap.

Oren, their factory was essentially one of their garages at their home!

[Oren Grad]

Oren, their factory was essentially one of their garages at their home!

True for the Carbon Infinity, not for the Toyo 45CF, which is what I had in mind in referring to a factory.

[Mark Sampson]

There was a long thread here some years back about the Carbon Infinity; IIRC our former (and much-missed) member Ole Tjugen had one. They were all over the photo magazines when announced, c.1990. Can't remember now how many were actually made, ninety? Fourteen? Some ridiculously low number. But I'll suggest that camera weight is not the most important thing... all your other stuff is still there so the camera body weight savings is a smaller percentage than you might think. @Havoc, I used a 4x5 Tachihara (3.5 pounds) for ten years in Upstate New York, a place well-known for rain and long cold winters, and never had a bit of trouble with it.

[LabRat]

Also be aware that it is a toxic process, when the cutting dust is airborne...


The resin is still heavy, and fiberglass can be used instead... One has to be careful while setting as there is is a chance items can set slightly warped, and then there's building the molds and jigs...

Cutting some woods or metals to make parts is at least a direct process...

Steve K

[pgk]

I bought some CF tube not long ago from a UK specialist supplier. I needed a precise external diameter and they had to measure the tubing in stock to find precisely what I needed. They told me that because tubing is made by wrapping CF around a former, the thickness and thus the external diameter varies within a tolerance. This makes tubular parts less than ideal in size so they would potentially need sourcing from somewhere willing to measure them or machined to fit. Not an ideal solution.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Not trying to derail the thread but I'm pretty excited about machined Dupont Delrin.

pkg: My former employer was one of the few (maybe the only one) that offered an undergraduate engineering degree in composite materials technology, and an asssociate was deeply involved in their large research and manufacturing facility. Making CF tubing exactly right is not that big a deal. We did not call it 'tolerance', but 'allowance'; maybe another British vs American thing? :)

[Peter De Smidt]

The Walker Titan is ABS, right?

[pgk]

Making CF tubing exactly right is not that big a deal. We did not call it 'tolerance', but 'allowance'; maybe another British vs American thing? :)

Interesting. Perhaps its more a thing about buying small quantities cheaply. Most of the stuff readily available is advertised as either 1" or 25mm over here but its perfectly possible that its usually one and the same - hence why a specific request suddenly gets the right size. Moral is to check that what you are buying is as described I guess.

Isn't Mike still producing his cameras? I don't think that the wide version is available any longer but I assume his others are?

[Jac@stafford.net]

The Walker Titan is ABS, right?

Yes.

[Bob Salomon]

The Walker Titan is ABS, right?

We were the Rimowa luggage distributor in the US for several years. Rimowa invented the aluminum suitcase and then was a pioneer of ABS luggage before they invented polycarbonate luggage.
The problem with ABS is that it could crack. Aluminum and polycarbonate do not.

[neil poulsen]

I recommend the Feisol tripods. I've had one for over three years, and it's been great. Reasonably priced and beefy, much more beefy than others that offer a spindly tripod at a high price.

See link at http://www.feisol.net/

I have the 3372, and if had had the choice at the time, I would have selected the 3372L (L for longer.) For a more compact tripod, they offer the 3472, which has a four section legs. The 3472 is also made to accept a leveling base, though one can have the flat base as well.

All of these tripods have 37mm diameter upper tripod leg sections. As I said, beefy. The stage at the top of these tripods is machined, versus cast. Stronger, and it weighs less. At 3.86 lbs, my tripod legs weigh less than my tripod head.

[Oren Grad]

Isn't Mike still producing his cameras? I don't think that the wide version is available any longer but I assume his others are?

The SF is gone. The XL Wides are still offered.

But I think we're getting way off-topic here - this is the DIY subforum, and unless I've misread him, the OP was asking about carbon fiber as a material to work with in DIY camera-building, not for recommendations of carbon fiber cameras or tripods to buy.

[mpirie]

I've used my Feisol 3371 for nearly 8 years, and although it would benefit from a service, it's still a very competent tripod.

Not simply carbon tubes though, as they have internal grooves to stop the inner legs turning while tightening the collars.

Mike

[Bruce Barlow]

Richard Ritter uses carbon fiber tubes on all his LF and ULF cameras. My 8x10 weighs 6 pounds.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I've used my Feisol 3371 for nearly 8 years

Me, too. Great product that is always ready to behave properly every day.

[Bob Salomon]

Me, too. Great product that is always ready to behave properly every day.

Good to hear that! I have been using my Linhof Lt Wt Pro aluminum tripod for over 30 years. Still functions like new, but no longer looks new! It functions so well that I gave my son in law my CF tripod!

[Drew Wiley]

I've seen carbon fiber sheet sandwiched in as part of the custom base laminate of Chamonix cameras. But otherwise it's a bit of a headache material to work
with. I started making a lightwt 4x5 point n shoot using carbon fiber, but got distracted and haven't finished the project yet. Low priority. There are a lot of
types of cabon fiber sheet and tube. You need something rigid. Having the right kind of sanding abrasives and glue is also important.

[Len Middleton]

I've seen carbon fiber sheet sandwiched in as part of the custom base laminate of Chamonix cameras. But otherwise it's a bit of a headache material to work with.

One of the interesting things I remember years ago when doing my engineering degree, was a simple and light composite structure comprised of two thin strips of aluminum glued top and bottom on a styrofoam block. Surprisingly strong and of course very lightweight.

For a DIY project, perhaps one could use the same approach with aluminum or CF, and use a honeycomb or lightweight balsa wood core. Have not done that myself, so just speculating on potential solutions...

[Drew Wiley]

Carbon fiber has come a long ways from back when the Carbon Infinity was manufactured. There's a huge selection of strength to weight ratios, and number of plys involved. I sold quite a bit of fabrication equipment to the international teams who built the various carbon fiber yachts for the last America's Cup race; but some of their material was very strong Kevlar-reinforced, custom mfg for that kind of extreme use - not strong enough, unfortunately. One mast
snapped and the sailor drowned, someone I had spoken to in person just a few days before. So new rules for the next race, so the yachts aren't too overtly
small or light. Same goes for tripods. The current two-ply tubing breaks far more easily given a dent or gouge than my old original 3-ply Gitzo. .. Aluminum
sandwiched fomeboard? There are version of Dibond etc like that, CNC friendly. Stay away from honeycomb - it's hell to work with.

[Bob Salomon]

Carbon fiber has come a long ways from back when the Carbon Infinity was manufactured. There's a huge selection of strength to weight ratios, and number of plys involved. I sold quite a bit of fabrication equipment to the international teams who built the various carbon fiber yachts for the last America's Cup race; but some of their material was very strong Kevlar-reinforced, custom mfg for that kind of extreme use - not strong enough, unfortunately. One mast
snapped and the sailor drowned, someone I had spoken to in person just a few days before. So new rules for the next race, so the yachts aren't too overtly
small or light. Same goes for tripods. The current two-ply tubing breaks far more easily given a dent or gouge than my old original 3-ply Gitzo. .. Aluminum
sandwiched fomeboard? There are version of Dibond etc like that, CNC friendly. Stay away from honeycomb - it's hell to work with.

When we closed in early 2015 our Giotto CF tripods had 8 cross layered legs. Don’t know who makes 2 layer CF legs.

[Drew Wiley]

Nearly everyone now it seems. I've seen Gitzo legs snap like a twig. Apples to apples just to save half a pound. But it's not just about the numbers of ply. Those yacht masts were just 2-ply too, but hundreds of times stronger than any CF tripod leg.

[Havoc]

Wow, never tought of getting this much out of that question. Ok, so from what I understand of it is that layering carbon fiber isn't that simple if you want to get the lowest weight/strength ratio. Vacuum bags etc are above my competence.

Delrin or ABS are options, but then I'd have to mill from a solid block. And from my experience with Delrin, it isn't that stiff if you go thin. And if you want it stiff, then it won't weight much less than alu. Glueing isn't easy (understatement) so you would have to make a rather complicated shape in one go. Never worked ABS but I fear it wouldn't be much different. And both are translucent, the black delrin specially made for bearings, not what is sought here. Peek might be another ption, but then alu would be cheaper and easier.

[Drew Wiley]

ABS is heavy and can easily shatter if dropped in really cold temperatures. Delrin is flexible. Fine for gears and sliding elements, but little else. It's a form of nylon, so not meant to be glued. ABS is easy to glue - ordinary plastic pipe or model cement; but it is never transparent and typically black. Thin multi-ply
modeling plywood is realistic. It can be CNC fabricated and then pickled with marine epoxy to make it nearly as impervious as plastic. But when you work
with carbon fiber for a minor project like a camera, no need to layer it. You just buy the thickness of sheet you want. The stronger and more rigid, the more
it will weigh. The tough stuff is compressed from multiple plys under high pressure. Or you could use urethane Gorilla glue to bond thin carbon fiber to a
thin piece of plywood for greater strength and easier machinability. I wouldn't want an aluminum camera. You'd get condensation on it like crazy, and probably on the film too in cold damp weather, and skin burn handling it, just like alum tripods. Classic aluminum cameras are made from die-cast alloy,
not simple sheet material. So imagine you wanted to replicate a Tecknika - every single metal part would need a die costing around $60,000 apiece prior to the cost of materials and manufacture itself. But that's why they hold up. All considered, there is a very good reason why so many view cameras are made
of wood.

[stevelmx5]

I haven't used carbon fibre sheet but I build my Chroma's from 2/3/5mm laminated acrylic (Perspex) and they are both strong and comparatively light (1500g).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1794420225/chroma-the-unique-4x5-technical-camera

http://chroma.camera/

As much as I'd like to build a carbon version, it would be a one off due to the much higher cost.

[LabRat]

Wow, never tought of getting this much out of that question. Ok, so from what I understand of it is that layering carbon fiber isn't that simple if you want to get the lowest weight/strength ratio. Vacuum bags etc are above my competence.

Delrin or ABS are options, but then I'd have to mill from a solid block. And from my experience with Delrin, it isn't that stiff if you go thin. And if you want it stiff, then it won't weight much less than alu. Glueing isn't easy (understatement) so you would have to make a rather complicated shape in one go. Never worked ABS but I fear it wouldn't be much different. And both are translucent, the black delrin specially made for bearings, not what is sought here. Peek might be another ption, but then alu would be cheaper and easier.

Delrin is soft and buttery... If you made a small block that had a screw hole through it and tightened the screw securely until it stopped, you could later turn the screw some more turns, and again later, and at some point you can see some expansion of the material around the pressure area...

The best materials to use for thin use have some reinforcement internally to hold forces from expansion/contraction/bending/warping etc... Plastics with fiber internal reinforcement are good, metals have uniform hardness/stiffness, but carefully selected woods have long grains and a good weight to strength ratio (but should be cross-grained bonded in layers to counteract warpage) and proper dried and sealed... Easy to cut thin stuff by hand on a kitchen table during some overnight session with simple hand tools too...

If they were longer, one could design/build a strong, stable back/FS/RS/bed using popsicle sticks if implemented correctly/well, but there are many other choices of woods too... ;-)

Steve K

[Jac@stafford.net]

Delrin is soft and buttery... If you made a small block that had a screw hole through it and tightened the screw securely until it stopped, you could later turn the screw some more turns, and again later, and at some point you can see some expansion of the material around the pressure area...

I believe you, Steve. That's a compelling, almost frightening description. My latest build uses mostly Delrin, and is drilled/tapped for sixteen fasteners of various sizes, none of them under great stress. I am watching carefully for problems. Aw, sh*t, it has been a great material - so far.

Thanks

[LabRat]

I believe you, Steve. That's a compelling, almost frightening description. My latest build uses mostly Delrin, and is drilled/tapped for sixteen fasteners of various sizes, none of them under great stress. I am watching carefully for problems. Aw, sh*t, it has been a great material - so far.

Thanks

Don't stop what you are doing Jac, but here's a tip... Don't fully torque your fasteners until the very end, and snug/tighten them once at the last minute during final assy... The good news is that that the soft material will tend to grab & hold the fasteners preventing slippage later... DON'T KEEP OVERTIGHTNING OR YOU WILL BE SAD!!! Torque only once...

I have some delrin components used inside of the studio microphones we build at work and I had to develop the feel/torque when tightening down, but is OK for the long term use...

Good luck on your build!!!!

Steve K

[Jac@stafford.net]

Thanks, Steve. I do use an inch-pound torque meter. Care and time will inform us.

[LabRat]

Thanks, Steve. I do use an inch-pound torque meter. Care and time will inform us.

Just turn the screws until they stop tight, and don't try it again later... :-)

Steve K

[Jac@stafford.net]

Just turn the screws until they stop tight, and don't try it again later... :-)

Steve K

I learned as a kid that a fastener over-tightened is a fastener already half-broken.

[robyz1984]

I'm always on the lookout for lighter gear, doesn't have to be smaller. A wooden 4x5 field camera would be lighter then the Wista. But I'm not a woodworker and I'm not a diehard traditionalist. And I'm in a country that isn't renowned for its fine weather. As carbon is used extensively for tripods these days that made me wonder if it would be possible to make something like the Wista but in carbon fiber. The raw materials are not that hard to get. On the other hand I never worked with it. So any feedback is interesting.

Hi Havoc, if you can wait until the end of summer, i'm creating a prototipe of 8x10 camera with micrometric movements and most of the components is in carbon fiber, the weight is about 3.4kg. Isn't a folding, is similar at Sinar F.

Also the chassis is new nothing to do with fidelity, Fidelity weight 650gr my new chassis about 300gr.

If you like it i keep you updated on progess.

Bye

Roberto

[Carsten Wolff]

I learned as a kid that a fastener over-tightened is a fastener already half-broken.
...Reminds me of a Northern-German quote: "After firm comes loose" :-) .
Anyway, I've made lovely, very light camera parts from balsa-ply and quite enjoyed even making my own ply. ....Most suited for the larger, flat, screw-less surfaces, such as standard-faces, lensboards, etc and can be trimmed with hard-, or soft-wood. Thin, two-part epoxy makes the surface pretty tough, but then you'd lose part of the weight advantage again; so I just seal and finish the ply with a bit of varnish or filler/paint. For "travel" cameras in particular, acrylic GG can also save surprising amounts of weight. Other weight-saving and simplification measures can add up: I e.g. made a 6x17cm/5x7" interchangeable GG and back holder from ply and aluminium; and using small turn-tabs saved me from a need to source springs, or bails.

[LabRat]

...Reminds me of a Northern-German quote: "After firm comes loose" :-) .
Anyway, I've made lovely, very light camera parts from balsa-ply and quite enjoyed even making my own ply. ....Most suited for the larger, flat, screw-less surfaces, such as standard-faces, lensboards, etc and can be trimmed with hard-, or soft-wood. Thin, two-part epoxy makes the surface pretty tough, but then you'd lose part of the weight advantage again; so I just seal and finish the ply with a bit of varnish or filler/paint. For "travel" cameras in particular, acrylic GG can also save surprising amounts of weight. Other weight-saving and simplification measures can add up: I e.g. made a 6x17cm/5x7" interchangeable GG and back holder from ply and aluminium; and using small turn-tabs saved me from a need to source springs, or bails.

Yes true, and works...

Balsa is light, more expensive, and hard to cut clean/straight, but I prefer basswood... Slightly harder/stiffer, sands smoother, and coating it with super thin coating of cyanoacrylate (superglue), it hardens/seals/stiffens it well...

But cross-grain different layers, as it is quite stiff in one direction, but bends in the other easily, so the two layers counteract the bending very well...

Great for lensboards!!!

Steve K

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] I prefer basswood [...]

Basswood! One of nature's wonders, great for carving, so easy to finish and paint, too!