Ragmount vs Colormount for heat mounting inkjet prints?

[Chester McCheeserton]

Anyone know if there is actually any difference between these products?

I have a big roll of color mount that I've successfully used to mount inkjet prints on Baryta paper to 8 ply museum board, I'm pretty sure Ragmount didn't exist 6 or 8 years ago, I'm wondering if they just changed the name to market it for inkjet prints or are the physical properties different, lower mounting temperature or something....have any of you used both? I don't want to waste the color mount but I also don't want to risk using an inferior mounting substrate if Ragmount is def better..

Thanks

[Drew Wiley]

I have no incentive to try it because I don't do any inkjet printing, which is the only thing it's officially recommended for. It's allegedly more breathable than Colormount, which is on a glassine-like substrate. When inkjet prints are heated up and pressed, they outgas quite a bit or else trap steam, being relatively unbreathable themselves, and are prone to form blisters. You could allow some of this to happen naturally by allowing them to air dry several months prior to mounting. But you'll just have to test. Heat mounting color prints is always a gamble anyway.

[faberryman]

Unless you are mounting large images, you might want to consider not drymounting at all. The notes say that Colormount is a permanent adhesive. If I were going to drymount, I would use something that is reversable. I am not sure if Ragmount is that product, but I would certainly ask.

[Drew Wiley]

The mfg specifications plainly spell out that Ragmount is NOT Colormount at all, and not even intended for the same applications. But "Reversible" is also
often synonymous with failure-prone in warm shipping or display conditions, esp with print media difficult to bond to begin with.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Thanks guys. Yeah I talked to a friend who has used Ragmount since I posted this, Ragmount actually has like a thin layer of paper in the middle with adhesive on either side. Very different then Colormount, which is as you say like glassine. I went ahead and mounted using the Colormount roll I had on hand. Didn't use weights while cooling and one edge popped up but I increased the temp slightly and cooled it under weights and seemed to hold. Knock on wood.

I mount a blank sheet on the back of the 8ply to prevent warping down the road which I'm sure is overkill but I've gotten into the habit. It saves $ and weight compared to having a frame shop mount them on dibond. I don't worry about the reversible part, I want the print flat for good! The mounted prints will go in a frame without a mat so the edges are held down by a spacer and the surface will be protected by plex, optium when I can swing it.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Still I'm surprised other people on here don't have direct experience with both.

[Drew Wiley]

Why? There are cold mount products more suitable. It's a relatively new product with little track record. I test things for years before I trust them with serious prints.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Way more people on this forum have seal heat mount presses then have 50 or 60 inch seal wide format roll laminators, which I've only seen in professional frame shops. Perhaps you have both, but if so, I bet you're one of less then a half dozen on here that do.
I'm aware it's possible to use a small hand roller or spray to cold mount but I don't know anyone serious, as you say, who would do that.

[Chester McCheeserton]

If you don't make inkjet prints and have never used it how are you so sure there are cold mount products more suitable?

[bob carnie]

Way more people on this forum have seal heat mount presses then have 50 or 60 inch seal wide format roll laminators, which I've only seen in professional frame shops. Perhaps you have both, but if so, I bet you're one of less then a half dozen on here that do.
I'm aware it's possible to use a small hand roller or spray to cold mount but I don't know anyone serious, as you say, who would do that.

Hi Chester

I have both , hot press and a cold laminator for mounting prints. I tend to like the cold laminator for inkjets and c prints, but I use the hot press for silver prints. Cibachromes and Silver are never advised to mount with hot. (who prints Cibas anymore anyways)
Also your substrates will tell you which method to use, plastics are not good for hot mounting , due to expansion and contraction, there for I stick to rag and acid free for hot mounts, Sintra , Diabond and Acid free for cold.
On Rag board its usually with hot press due to its thinness, but with that said you can use the cold for rag as well


One advantage of hot press, and yes it works perfectly well for inkjets is when you are precision mounting for Matting purposes , putting a print in position is impossible (or really hard) with roller cold press, but a piece of cake with a hot press.

I no longer do face to plexi which is a specific mount process , and I am no longer mounting silver prints with reversable tissue , as it is almost impossible to use in my shop.

I have seen people put the adhesive on larger boards and then mount small print over time, a quick fix and for small prints you can use a roller , but for bigger prints I would not advise, but with that said I saw a youtube video of a dude mounting 20 x30 prints using cold adhesive rolled onto a board and then the print is adhered and rolled on.. Painful to watch but he thought it was the cats ass.

Bob

[bob carnie]

If you don't make inkjet prints and have never used it how are you so sure there are cold mount products more suitable?

Ink jets are fine cold or hot.

[Sal Santamaura]

If you don't make inkjet prints and have never used it how are you so sure there are cold mount products more suitable?


Ink jets are fine cold or hot.

He was asking Drew. :)

[bob carnie]

He was asking Drew. :)

got it , I am surprised to hear people saying inkprints cannot be hot pressed.

[faberryman]

Thanks for the advice Bob. Keep in mind that Drew is immortal. I've only got a few good years left, so testing a product exhaustively for long term effects before using is not in the cards. I just look at the best available information and go with it. Maybe it would be different if the MOMA was chasing after my prints. But then I would let them worry about mounting them.

[Drew Wiley]

Please bear in mind that Bob has a great deal of experience and specialized equipment. Save your scrap prints and experiment. Quite a few people have adopted Scotch PMA repositionable cold mount for prints up to 16X20 or so. But the pro cold mount tissues are utterly unforgiving. There are specific techniques with all of these which involve a learning curve. How do I know? I've done all kinds of mounting and framing over the years - not just my own
prints. I also research and experiment with all kinds of things I might not ever find necessary personally; but certain of these things do turn out invaluable
now and then. With inkjet mounting, its not just a case of reliable bonding, but the esthetic issue of "orangepeel" becoming a higher risk the glossier the
print is. Having a relatively thick rag paper mounting tissue doesn't help. That concept was once marketed for cold mounting too - note the past tense.

[bob carnie]

FWIW when inkjets were first introduced to the market, hot pressing was dicey as there was a lot of lifting of ink and therefore everyone moved to cold mounting.

I use Hahnemule Bayrta Papers and Epson Enhance matt and these two papers have proven to be very good for mounting applications. When cold mounting in the past with Cprints the paper stock was thin
and suspect to issues of showing any problems with the adhesive layer, any board problems and any dust in the work area.
With the ink jet paper which are much thicker (Baryta) these problems are very low, and as every one who does a lot of framing knows a matt print is super forgiving.

Drews point of past tense is correct, and yes there are still cheaper papers on the market that are bad for mounting, but if you keep with Canson, Hahnemulhe, or Epson they have worked out a lot of the bugs.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Good to know. I'm not hearing anyone sound the air horn in favor of Ragmount so will continue to use Colormount and my heat press for up to 22 x 28 inches, the rough size of the Seal 500T that I've only had for a coupe of years but have moved twice and built a rolling cart for so I'm sort of determined to get some use from it.

Drew perhaps you are right and it might be worth experimenting with some scraps and the Scotch PMA stuff, though that windshield scraper looking thing does not inspire confidence in terms of perfect flatness...I usually print on Artista Baryta which is very close to the Canson Baryta Photographique – it used to be way cheaper although Freestyle recently jacked the price and it's not as much of a great deal as it was. I'm just used to heat mounting silver prints with MT5 which is how I learned. Will still take larger prints to a professional mounter with one of the big cold laminators.

Bob have you used heat press to mount onto dibond? Do you do any work for E Burtynsky or does he have a setup to do it all in-house?

[Drew Wiley]

My point was simply that Colormount has been around a long time, so we hopefully know what to expect, though there is still a question in my mind if some of the D&K current marketing label came from China; so I'll be sure to test my fresh batch. And rag paper, which is allegedly at the core of Ragmount, is infamously difficult to make truly flat. And as far as heat goes, ink can be printed on all kinds of substrates including some properly sized plastics, and not just the ordinary store-bought versions; so that's why I'm not going to gamble on a generic answer about heat. Some people like 3M PMA, some hate it. That
little squegee thing - just a Bondo applicator - is indeed a joke. But you can use a Formica laminate roller. I have a big roller machine that works for permanent acrylic adhesives too.

[bob carnie]

Good to know. I'm not hearing anyone sound the air horn in favor of Ragmount so will continue to use Colormount and my heat press for up to 22 x 28 inches, the rough size of the Seal 500T that I've only had for a coupe of years but have moved twice and built a rolling cart for so I'm sort of determined to get some use from it.

Drew perhaps you are right and it might be worth experimenting with some scraps and the Scotch PMA stuff, though that windshield scraper looking thing does not inspire confidence in terms of perfect flatness...I usually print on Artista Baryta which is very close to the Canson Baryta Photographique – it used to be way cheaper although Freestyle recently jacked the price and it's not as much of a great deal as it was. I'm just used to heat mounting silver prints with MT5 which is how I learned. Will still take larger prints to a professional mounter with one of the big cold laminators.

Bob have you used heat press to mount onto dibond? Do you do any work for E Burtynsky or does he have a setup to do it all in-house?

Yes we have used a product called flo bond (I think) crazy expensive . I placed about 10 pieces in the George Eastman House exhibit for Elizabeth Seigfried a few years back. They were 30 x40 silver gelatin and we did them on dibond. This worked well but I have to say difficult.
If I remember right we had to sand the surface of the diabond to create a surface that the tissue could blend into the tissue is very flimsy and the chance of screw ups high, but for silver gelatin to aluminum I think the only way.


I am not a big fan of mounting these days but I do it as a lot of my clients have me make monster size prints, I am particular to Sintra , Dibond and of course the old favourite Museum Rag for large work. We never use gator board and for some clients they tell us not to use acid free foam board.
Face mounting then dibond back mounting is very popular these last 10 years, I absolutely hate doing it and today refuse these types of jobs.

I have found that for all my alternative printing there is no need to mount and I love the workflow of corner mounting prints in a beautiful matt presentation.

Regarding Ed , He built Toronto Image Works specifically to answer all his printing , mounting , framing , crating and shipping needs, Ed is on a complete other level IMHO and I respect him and his work tremendously, I have never done any work for him.

[faberryman]

...some clients they tell us not to use acid free foam board...
Is there a problem with acid free foam board? I print small (10x15 max) and mount my work using corners on 16x20 acid free foam board with a 4-ply acid free mat overlay.

[Sal Santamaura]

Is there a problem with acid free foam board?...

See pages 520-521 of Wilhelm's Permanence and Care of Color Photographs:


http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_761_Pages_HiRes_v1c.pdf

A pertinent brief passage:


The pH level of polystyrene-foam laminates is only one of many considerations that determine their suitability for mounting photographs; more important are the possible adverse effects from facing materials, and from aging products of the polystyrene foam core and laminating adhesives.

[faberryman]

See pages 520-521 of Wilhelm's Permanence and Care of Color Photographs:
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_761_Pages_HiRes_v1c.pdf

A pertinent brief passage:

The pH level of polystyrene-foam laminates is only one of many considerations that determine their suitability for mounting photographs; more important are the possible adverse effects from facing materials, and from aging products of the polystyrene foam core and laminating adhesives.
Thanks for the link. Something to consider. I'm using archival foam core from Archival Methods. They say: :Extruded closed cell polystyrene core free from damaging pollutants and harmful gasses."

[bob carnie]

Thanks Sal - my reference point was the prepator at the Stephen Bulger Gallery who pointed this out to me.

[Drew Wiley]

Sal - a lot of Wilhelm is awfully out of date. Alkaline-buffering isn't necessarily an advantage; it can be downright deleterious for some types of photographs. Sometimes it's just a way to tweak an inferior product for marketing hype. Ordinary acid-free formecore is very uneven and prone to warp. You can find premium types like Mitey Core; but you have to buy it in quantity. All the alleged acidity of Gatorboard is trapped in phenolic, so inert. It does need sanding, however. You'd be amazed at how many products I've tested. At one point I made my own laminates. But nowadays there are a number of pre-made options, some very smooth and dependable. Wet mounting can be tricky; but it's still an option for big fiber-based prints for the poor man who also knows how to hang wallpaper without wrinkles. Done it all. For ordinary silver-gelatin FB prints I prefer drymounting on museum board. Color prints are a whole different
subject - it all depends.

[Sal Santamaura]

...a lot of Wilhelm is awfully out of date...Aging products of polystyrene foam would appear to remain a concern with "ordinary acid-free foamcore," which is what most people are using.


...Color prints are a whole different subject...Considering typical inkjet prints to be "color prints" seems wise. :)

[Drew Wiley]

Sal, other than Alphamount matboard and a small selection of ragboard, almost all art or photo store sheet goods are not up to par. In pro sizes and case quantities, however, there is a huge selection of things out there, typically distributed either by plastic dealers, signage supply companies, or picture frame wholesalers. Often these same outfits sell the big machines too. I don't have any time for color printing or mounting this season. Right now I'm working on a big teak countertop for someone in the Wine Country.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Yes we have used a product called flo bond (I think) crazy expensive . I placed about 10 pieces in the George Eastman House exhibit for Elizabeth Seigfried a few years back. They were 30 x40 silver gelatin and we did them on dibond. This worked well but I have to say difficult.
If I remember right we had to sand the surface of the diabond to create a surface that the tissue could blend into the tissue is very flimsy and the chance of screw ups high, but for silver gelatin to aluminum I think the only way.

Yes, I worked at a lab many years ago that mounted silver prints to aluminum this way using a vacuum heat press. We used brillo scouring pads to sand the aluminum first - very time consuming and a lot of work.

Regarding Gator/Archival Foam core/long term stability. It's not hard to imagine that the plastic inner cores are not the most stable and acid free environments but at a certain point weight and cost start to become increasingly important. Smallcorp in Massachusetts sells an amazing looking product that is honeycomb aluminum with museum board mounted over the top, but I don't know of any artist or small country who would pay the price it goes for.

I'm not sure the boards and tissue Alfred Stieglitz was using on his prints from 100 years ago would have fared well in Wilhelm's testing. The pictures still hold up though.

[bob carnie]

Yes, I worked at a lab many years ago that mounted silver prints to aluminum this way using a vacuum heat press. We used brillo scouring pads to sand the aluminum first - very time consuming and a lot of work.

Regarding Gator/Archival Foam core/long term stability. It's not hard to imagine that the plastic inner cores are not the most stable and acid free environments but at a certain point weight and cost start to become increasingly important. Smallcorp in Massachusetts sells an amazing looking product that is honeycomb aluminum with museum board mounted over the top, but I don't know of any artist or small country who would pay the price it goes for.

I'm not sure the boards and tissue Alfred Stieglitz was using on his prints from 100 years ago would have fared well in Wilhelm's testing. The pictures still hold up though.

I would be interested in a link to ght honeycomb aluminum with museum board if you do not mind, sounds interesting.

[Sal Santamaura]

I would be interested in a link to ght honeycomb aluminum with museum board...


http://www.smallcorp.com/products-for-conservation/

[bob carnie]

thanks Sal

[Drew Wiley]

Honeycomb is affordable if your company name is Boeing. Otherwise, you typically need to buy at least ten full-sized sheets at a time to get a token price break. It's almost impossible to size and edge without dedicated equipment. I dealt with people who worked with honeycomb for a living, so know exactly what's involved. You can get it pre-treated to accept something like MT5 and apply your own rag, and save a lot of money that way. About 40 or 50K US investment for machinery like in the link, but only 4 or 5K for sheet-at-time capacity like I've got. Alum dust needs special extraction or you can get a grain elevator type explosion. Honeycomb is very light and rigid; but I certainly wouldn't recommend either it or rag for high gloss prints like Fujiflex. Not smooth enough.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob, albumen prints actually ideally need a slightly acidic or at least neutral pH backing. That's why all my old ones still look good mounted with mucilege glue onto basic card stock, which was generally much better than today's disposable cardboard, but still full of acid and lignin. Stieglitz did a lot of Photogravure on good paper, and I've seen the master set of his silver chloride contact prints. But that kind of collection can warrant expensive conservator care and remounting if necessary. Mattise and Picasso did a lot of collages with ordinary cheap colored card stock, and without fortunes being spent on restoration, none of this would have survived.

[Sal Santamaura]

Honeycomb is affordable if your company name is Boeing...About 40 or 50K US investment for machinery like in the link, but only 4 or 5K for sheet-at-time capacity...Bob's probably not interested in obtaining raw honeycomb and using machinery to make the product he seeks. He instead likely wants to know about buying ready-made material like what was described in #27:


http://www.smallcorp.com/pmp-photo-mounting-and-support-panels/

[Drew Wiley]

Might make sense if the cost can be passed on. There's a shop in town that can do this without frame seams over 20 ft wide. A couple years ago they charged $40,000 for a single frame like that, wholesale. So I sure hope the art work was worth it. I didn't ask. The rich and infamous are welcome to spend money here. I just don't like them buying up entire neighborhoods and chasing everyone else out. Some have good taste. Some don't. But overall, the decor taste runs Zen rather than Vegas/Miami here, which is nice.

[bob carnie]

It is not uncommon for clients to purchase print and mount to diabond with spacer hanger at $1500 - $2000 range , When working on these types of budgets and timelines I can see how custom boards will come into play, I will investigate the smallcorp more thanks Sal.

In all cases Drew the cost is passed on, the client dictates the presentation , all we try to do is facilitate as best we can.

[Mrportr8]

If I may chime in regarding the original question about the difference between Ragmount and Colormount? Ragmount incorporates a thermoplastic adhesive while Colormount is a solvent acrylic. Thermoplastic bonds while cooling, solvent acrylic bonds when heated. Thermoplastic can be reheated many times and can be removed, though it often leaves behind some residue. No such luck with solvent acrylic which requires the use of solvents and may still leave a residue. I have used both and in my mind if you're going to mount a print it should be considered a one way street. In short, I stick with Colormount (pun intended).

[Chester McCheeserton]

If I may chime in regarding the original question about the difference between Ragmount and Colormount? I have used both and in my mind if you're going to mount a print it should be considered a one way street. In short, I stick with Colormount (pun intended).

LOL Thank you – figured someone on here had to have used both

[Tin Can]

Bob's probably not interested in obtaining raw honeycomb and using machinery to make the product he seeks. He instead likely wants to know about buying ready-made material like what was described in #27:


http://www.smallcorp.com/pmp-photo-mounting-and-support-panels/

Only yesterday I was looking at this Alu Honeycomb for a different application. Not print mounting. I think this was cut from 4X8' sheets. Now find that.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#8458k84/=1d22fvd Cost is not too bad.

[Drew Wiley]

McMaster is handy; but their pricing on something like this is very high indeed, at least per square foot. Unfortunately, serious dealers of this kind of product don't generally cut down full sheets. They expect you to do that. But like I already hinted, don't try it without dedicated equipment. The edges will be sharp and need capping with something. I've about had it with shop projects for today - cabinet shop stuff rather than photography. But now I'm free to go shoot
tomorrow if the weather looks inviting.

[Tin Can]

A few years ago I wanted a sample of some fancy diffusion plastic. The salesperson truck shipped an entire oversize 4X8' sheet on 2 skids as a sample to my door. I had to cut it in half just to store it.

I sent somebody here a usable chunk for their project.

Good stuff.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm pretty well set up to handle plastics and other sheet goods. But the only time someone showed up at my door was when my wife cut into a loaf of locally
baked French bread and hit a piece of a rubber roller. She called in a complaint, and then we got a knock on the door at 5 in the morning. The driver gave us
a whole stack of still warm French bread, even before any of his other stops.

[Tin Can]

You do have good bread in SF.

I discovered it in 1980 on a honeymoon.