How do you experience your GG?

[Vaughn]

I have much cleaning and organizing of my home -- but for some reason I am drawn here to 'waste' time, but hopefully not yours.

In the past month I have had 250+ people look through my various LF cameras, from the 100 yr-old 5x7 Eastman View No.2, to my first-big-trip new Chamonix 11x14. About 99% of them had never looked thru a LF camera before. A large proportion of them had no idea what they were looking at until it clicked for them that everything was upside-down. I got to the point where I waited to hear the slight gasp of recognition from under the darkcloth.

One of the most interesting early moments of using a LF camera was when I came out from under the darkcloth and the world looked upside-down, just for a heartbeat. One of the two processes I print with reverses the final image (single transfer carbon), and I need to compose an image based on which process I will use (some negs can go both ways, the little devils!) I have grown accustom to mentally flipping the image on the GG differently depending on what the final print will be orientated.

A lens throws an image that is upside-down and backwards. We view that image from the backside of the GG, so the image we are looking at is still upside-down, but not backwards...relative to how it would look as the print. To view it as a platinum print I just have to mentally rotate the GG image 180 degrees on the same plane (like a pinwheel). For carbon printing I mentally spin the image 180 degrees on it horizontal axis. My brain does it automatically, but it is interesting to observe how it all works.

Anyone else have a personal way of working with the image on their GG? Perhaps I have spent too much time under the darkcloth this past month!

[mdarnton]

I like the question, and have this same issue when using an SLR, even though it's the right way around.

I started very early, with RF cameras, at about 10, and was taught, not figuring it out on my own. What I was taught was to compose the shot in my eye without the camera, then use the camera finder to simply box in what I had already determined was the photo, not composing in the finder. I didn't get an SLR until 8 years later, but mainly used Leicas when I could all the time I was a serious photographer. When digital hit, I was sort of forced into SLRs, and found the GG disturbing, in that it made everything look good, even rotten compositions, and I found myself making a lot of compositional mistakes. I still use Leicas for film, and find that way of working much more comfortable.

When I got back into LF for fun, I had a hard time with the GG, not because it was so lush, like an SLR, but because it was upside down. So I've gone back to my Leica strategy for that--I find and compose the picture, then I box it in on the ground glass, and I don't try to figure out what is going on in the camera, compositionally.

The one thing I'm still having trouble with is that with 35mm I compose extremely tightly. With LF I'm still dealing with the worry that the subject is going to move and I won't be able to follow, so my portraits tend to be framed looser than I'd like, and where I was one of those people who NEVER cropped, I often have to do a bit now, not to balance the composition, but to chop off what I didn't want in the picture originally. I suppose I will get better with time.

[jp]

I don't even realize the image is upside or flipped side to side. Until I have to adjust the camera then it requires some thought or back and forth. For example panning would mean I'd have to think like mdarnton; think about the reality rather than what's on the GG. This differs from a DSLR where you try to keep focus points on the object you are panning with.
I mostly use the LF and MF ground glass to focus and see where the edges of the frame end up compared to what I mentally estimated, check focus again, and make the photo. If I can figure out what will be in the photo before raising my LF or MF camera I think that's ideal and part of the thoughtful process we associate with film use technique.. Of course it can be used with any camera.. It's also helpful for cell phone pix in bright daylight what you can't see the picture on the back of the phone in sunlight.

[John Layton]

The inverted image has always been such a great "conduit" for me...helping to wipe clean the slate of staid mental association and enhancing pure visual acuity. Also facilitates a feeling of "weightlessness" and symmetry with whatever is out there on the other side of the camera. When all is cooking along nicely the camera itself more or less disappears and becomes a window...and then I feel like I'm truly connecting/responding...am being guided by something much greater than myself...like I'm on some kind of "cosmic autopilot." Hate to sound corny...but there it is!

[Doremus Scudder]

Vaughan,

Strangely enough, I have been spending less and less time under the darkcloth composing over the years, and now do all the real putting together of the image by eye and with the aid of a viewing frame. Then it's just a matter of selecting the lens that crops closest to what I want without cutting into the desired image borders, applying movements, finding near and far focus points, checking focus spread and setting final focus.

By far, the most time spent working directly with the ground glass is applying camera movements, especially when I'm doing architectural work or cityscapes, for which the verticals and horizontal lines are important, or sometimes working to optimize focus spread by applying swings and tilts (which can take time for a tricky shot). I really don't "compose" the image on the ground glass at all; I know what I want before I even set up the tripod.

I've been working with LF long enough now that the upside-down and reversed image doesn't bother me at all; it all seems intuitive now. What does trip me up a bit is when I occasionally grab the TLR and use it hand-held; I always seem to move left when I should go right. I suppose I'd get used to that quickly if I used it a lot, but it's really only once or twice a year.

Best,

Doremus

[Vaughn]

Great!

I still spend a lot of time under the darkcloth. Since I show the rebate, and thus do no cropping, I spend a lot of time refining the edges and corners of the image on the GG -- it's much too fun for me not to do! I do not use a viewing frame, though I can see its advantages. I occasionally make "Ls" with my thumbs and index fingers to quickly check if my eyes are matching my lens selection (250mm or 300mm, and now 360mm, on 8x10). About 90% of the time I'll have the correct lens on the camera and have set up the tripod in the right spot. Pretty easy for the "Grand Landscape", a little more work required in tighter places (architecture or in the woods where an inch or two greatly changes the relationships of objects -- as in the 11x14 contact print below).

I feel there is a lot of spontaneity in LF work. The spontaneity comes in the moment I reconize the exsistance of the image in front of me and make the decision to capture it on film -- it is just the follow-through of setting up the camera and exposing the film that takes the time.

John -- totally understand where you are coming from! I was explaining to the park visitors that having the image upside down frees me from the 'subject' (and/or reality) and lets me concentrate on the image I am making.

[Graham Patterson]

I came through the usual progression - direct vision, SLR (35mm), TLR, then 5x4/8x10. Using the TLRs helped a lot to break the reality/composition dependency since I was using a waist level finder. I was no longer looking in the direction of what I saw.

I usually have a good idea of where I need to be to frame what caught my interest, whatever format an camera type I am using. Optimizing the image on the ground glass using movements is easier with the inverted image. I am not sure if I am actually conscious of the change - I think I manipulate the inverted presentation but visualize the result the right way up.

The human brain is remarkably adaptable.

[William Whitaker]

The ground glass is a siren, calling me and beguiling me to while a way my time and not a small amount of my money on cameras, lenses and other assorted temptations. Under the dark cloth it is just her. And me.

Seriously, I do find composition easier on the glass than not.

And whoever said, "Bigger is better" was right!!

[ic-racer]

I could have a conversation with a layperson about LF photography for hours and never think to mention it; I don't really think of it at all.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have a GG on all my view cameras, but one-by-one I've put them into storage. I deeply appreciate those who effectively use perspective controls. I just cannot use a GG properly. (Hell, I can hardly walk now)

So I have become a viewfinder and rangefinder enthusiast for MF to LF, and would like to learn of others similarly oriented.

[Doremus Scudder]

Great!

I still spend a lot of time under the darkcloth. Since I show the rebate, and thus do no cropping, I spend a lot of time refining the edges and corners of the image on the GG -- it's much too fun for me not to do! I do not use a viewing frame, though I can see its advantages. ...

Lovely image, Vaughan!

It's amazing how differently good photographers can work. I crop almost everything (I enlarge) and plan my end result before I set up for the shot; anything from tall and skinny to panorama to square (and occasionally full-frame too :) ). My viewing frame helps me to eliminate many shots from consideration, saving set-up time as well as finding the right camera position. I set up the tripod, put my chin on the camera platform, close one eye and find my (fairly) exact position before I mount the camera. Occasionally I'll adjust tripod position a bit based on the ground glass image, but really, only rarely. Then it's just find a lens that'll work, focus and apply movements.


Doremus

[DrTang]

I don't even realize the image is upside or flipped side to side.

sometimes adjusting it ..I end up pointing it right when..of ciurse I should point it left.. happens


however ..it was really funny when a model wanted to look thru the camera from the working end.. and so I got in front and she's like: 'WHOA..Everything is UPSIDE DOWN'

and I said..yeah..watch this..(and I stuck out my arm)..now look thru the camera and of course my arm was pointing the other way (albeit upside down).. and she was like..how can you even figure all that out??

I said: LUCK

[Bernice Loui]

Does not appear to be a eye viewing image difference for me between viewing on the GG or viewing the scene being projected to the GG. This transition appears to be instant and seamless for me.

This could be similar to playing a musical instrument where muscle memory is part of what is required to master a musical instrument well enough to be a means of expression. It could be viewing the inverted GG image is a similar mind-brain adaption that comes with time and becomes more instinctive than focusing on sorting the GG image out which is very often the case for those new to GG viewed cameras.

Dentist work on teeth using a mirror, this could be a similar visual adaptation and skill.

The image making process begins with looking for how light is interacting with shapes, then how can that illuminated shape-form can be isolated into a frame with it's perspective changed by a given lens as needed. Essentially, the image to be is created-formed in mind before the camera-lens is set up. Once the camera and lens choice has been made, view the GG, adjust as needed before film is exposed.


Bernice

[Vaughn]

Thanks, Doremus. I do some in-camera cropping by using modified darkslides to make 4x10 and 5x14 images on 8x10 and 11x14 film respectively. My decision not to crop is just a self-imposed limitation I apply to help push me to improve my seeing.

The closing of one eye is something I also do -- helps me to reduce the influence of stereo-vision on composition. Sometimes I am surprised how much the stereo image can influence one's decisions in the field.

[jim10219]

Luckily, my mind doesn't process the upside down image well. As a result, what I like best about the ground glass is it allows me to disassociate the object from the image. It forces me to approach the photograph as a purely aesthetic composition devoid of the narrative or meaning I sought when setting up the camera. It's like a second opinion on the photo. It's kind of like how I'll view a projected negative in the darkroom or image on a computer from a far distance, sometimes without my glasses on, to help with cropping decisions.

Recently, I made a viewfinder mask to help with compositions and lens choices before I set up a camera. I'm interested to see how this effects my relationship with the ground glass.

[LabRat]

What is interesting for me is that I spend over 80% of my composition time just looking where transitions and dynamics begin and end, but the main composition was already set in my eye/brain, so the rest of the time is just cleaning up the edges...

This is what I do with all formats, but the biggest training device was using a point & shoot digital camera for many off the hip shots, where I was able to see the edges of the image instantly, so it started a curve that helped me in all formats...

And using a gg for so long helped me to see a lcd screen more fully, so there is a synergy...

It's all good...

Steve K

[neil poulsen]

My ground glass viewing experience goes hand in hand with my camera, an Arca-Swiss 4x5 that's the result of collecting a multitude of parts over the years.

For example, I really like Arca's arrangement of the g.g. and the fresnel lens, the latter of which is between the lens and the g.g. (They've adjusted tolerances to make this possible.) This makes the image on the g.g. stand out in a nice way. Though not necessary, it's also quite nice to have geared rise/fall, which makes adjustments almost seamless with the viewing experience.

As for composition, I'm comfortable seeing the image reversed top/bottom & left/right. This "objectifies" the image, abstracting it in a way that enables me to be more aware on the geometric shapes in the image, as well as the content itself. I like photographing architecture and landscape, and the process of studying the scene and viewing it on the g.g. helps me to better internalize and absorb what I'm seeing. Of course, by its nature, using a view camera goes hand in hand with a careful, deliberate approach to photographing. All combined, it leads to enhanced viewing, understanding, and enjoyment of the scene itself.

[Tin Can]

Very interesting that Arca-Swiss place their Fresnel; between GG and lens. They are a highly respected company that produce high-end LF cameras.

Which settles that issue for me. My Speed Graphic is similar, also a respected design.

I have two 8X10 Horseman with factory fresnel that has confused me, as one has it in front and one behind. Both are adjusted...

I plan to experience any GG as soon as my new glasses arrive, one more week. :)

I

[John Layton]

Randy...I think you mentioned on another thread that you are having some closeup glasses made?

I've been using a pair of 4X readers...pretty much as powerful as I can find without going to a "custom job," and so far they've been fine. I also have a pair of extreme close up glasses which I inherited a few years ago, which I generally use for retouching - the lenses of which are small enough...and positioned well enough - to wear along with the 4X's (yes...two pairs of glasses at once) so that I can effectively, by tilting my head slightly, go back and forth between the full screen viewing that the 4X's afford, then quickly move in with the retouching lenses to assess small areas of the GG - all of this "hands free."

Not sure who makes my retouching glasses or if they're even available anymore - but they are very simple and seem like they would be very inexpensive.

[Tin Can]

John. thanks for your suggestions. I recently had cataract and IOL implant surgery which takes weeks to settle in. I am awaiting new RX Progressive eyeglasses. I can' t use the 20 pairs I have from 'before'. I now see 20/40, much better than my previous 20/800 and I am using 2.5 diopter reading glasses which are very annoying. Cateract surgery takes 10 minutes, but recovery is about 6 weeks for me.

Later today I plan to try a still life, maybe with my laser FocuSpot and a Wire Sports Finder. I don't need to see to develop film!


Randy...I think you mentioned on another thread that you are having some closeup glasses made?

I've been using a pair of 4X readers...pretty much as powerful as I can find without going to a "custom job," and so far they've been fine. I also have a pair of extreme close up glasses which I inherited a few years ago, which I generally use for retouching - the lenses of which are small enough...and positioned well enough - to wear along with the 4X's (yes...two pairs of glasses at once) so that I can effectively, by tilting my head slightly, go back and forth between the full screen viewing that the 4X's afford, then quickly move in with the retouching lenses to assess small areas of the GG - all of this "hands free."

Not sure who makes my retouching glasses or if they're even available anymore - but they are very simple and seem like they would be very inexpensive.

[DrTang]

I just try to keep from lopping the models hands or feet off

[neil poulsen]

I've been using a Nikon 7x loupe for focusing that I like. I began with a cheap loupe years ago and then bought a Schneider 4x aspheric loupe that was a revelation for me. But by comparison, I like the added magnification of the Nikon.

Being retired, I need glasses for composing the image on the g.g. So, I buy two pair of drug store glasses, one for the left eye and one for the right. (Each selected for best focus at 11 inches.) Then, I swap lenses so that viewing is corrected for both eyes. Works great. TOTAL: $20!

As for Arca g.g. and Fresnel, it's their g.g. and their Fresnel. So, they've machined tolerances on the back to correct for the change in focus that occurs with their placement of the Fresnel. (Between g.g. and lens.)

[neil poulsen]

I just try to keep from lopping the models hands or feet off

:)

There's a funny story about the photographer who was (is?) in charge of the Ansel Adams trust. He'd taken a photograph of a model in a flowing dress that had become well-known. As the image gained notoriety, the model complained more and more that she should be paid additional money.

Finally, he cut off her head, and she stopped complaining.

[Vaughn]

I have never cared much for Fresnel lenses...I felt they interferred with my looking at the GG image. I used a loupe early on, but lost it and never felt the need to replace it. Being very near-sighted, I see as well without glasses as one would with a low-powered loupe (I can focus at about 4 to 5 inches from my eyes), so that works well with me. Sometime a loupe would be nice in low-light situations.

Good luck, Randy! Hope the new eyes settle in quickly!

[Tin Can]

Thanks, Vaughn.

Like you I WAS very nearsighted and could focus very well at 3". No longer. Now I am backwards, I see better at 10 ft and can drive in daylight with 20/40. But have to put glasses on where I always took them off. Then I forget they are on and wander off in a blur. 60 year habits die slowly. Getting glasses at age 7 changed my life.

Hopefully, by the end of next week, I have new goggles!

Now I am so worried about eye damage from not seeing crap coming I just mowed the lawn wearing full coverage UVEX goggles with anti-fog. I'm buying more of those. As they don't fog in this Southern Steam Forest and tree branches slide right off.



I have never cared much for Fresnel lenses...I felt they interferred with my looking at the GG image. I used a loupe early on, but lost it and never felt the need to replace it. Being very near-sighted, I see as well without glasses as one would with a low-powered loupe (I can focus at about 4 to 5 inches from my eyes), so that works well with me. Sometime a loupe would be nice in low-light situations.

Good luck, Randy! Hope the new eyes settle in quickly!

[tgtaylor]

I've been shooting LF since around 2002/4 and have gotten so use to seeing the subject upside down and reversed that I no longer even notice it – except when I need to apply shift or swing and then I need to think it out a little. Once I have found a subject and determine where to stand, I use a Linhoff Lens finder to determine the FL of the lens to use and then set-up and balance the tripod at that spot with the front leg “aimed” at the subject. Naturally the aim isn't always perfect when viewed through the GG and that's where the shift comes into play. On the Robos the shift is geared and a dream to use but on the fields its manual and when using the longer FL's on the 810 and Robos results in a back and forth between the front standard and the GG.

I have fresnel's on all of the 4x5 cameras but that wasn't always the case. My first LF camera was the Toyo 45cf which I ordered new from B&H but without the optional Fresnel. My first shot (“first light” as they say in astronomy circles) with it was overlooking a shoreline bench facing a Marsh Grass outcropping along the SF Bay in Fremont - very scenic - and off to my left was an artists painting the scene in the late afternoon light. She saw the camera and came up to take a look through it. It was dark in there (f5.6) and I could tell that she was disappointed because of it. I later purchased a fresnel from the MAC group and it makes a world of difference on the 4x5's. The 8x10's don't seem to need them unless you need to focus at night.

Thomas

[Eric Woodbury]

I don't even notice the image rotation any more, except when I photograph a reflection and the image then appears right-side up. That's when I freak.

Nice question V.

[John Kasaian]

It's all kind of mystical to me, unless I consider the Physics. Then it's merely obnoxious.

[Tin Can]

Lol

[Heroique]

I don't even notice the image rotation any more, except when I photograph a reflection and the image then appears right-side up. That's when I freak.

Yes – and I've always thought a thread showing upside-down GG images at the time of composition (perhaps taken with a smart phone?) would be peaceful, calming, and soothing to many of us here!

[Heroique]

…Also facilitates a feeling of "weightlessness" and symmetry with whatever is out there on the other side of the camera…

This is similar to my experience, especially the "weightlessness" part. I may have started composing with a viewing card (the most under-rated of all useful LF tools!), but when I begin working on the ground glass, the scene quickly, magically becomes geometric and abstract to me – very pleasingly so – transforming into a Cezanne-like image whose components are spheres, rectangles, triangles. That's when "upside down" and "backwards" fall away from my thinking. And if I'm enjoying a good day, these shapes harmonize with and balance each other. Geometry and abstraction can be very "weightless" indeed!

[chassis]

With large format, because of the pace and cadence, I am able to work with the reversed image and compose deliberately and slowly, if needed. With medium format, I prefer a prism finder, because I am normally making portraits with roll film. I desire to work as quickly and efficiently as possible when working with people, and the prism helps me do this.

[tgtaylor]

here's the image I referred to in my post above:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/923/41398529390_4e7318cc69_z.jpg

I knew I had it somewhere and looking for it led to the discovery of a fine image that I had forgotten about. But this is not my first LF shot - that one was taken near Clayton in Contra Costa County which is a good 30 or 40 miles away but close in time that I had taken this one. It's also not as good as I remember but perhaps there is another one lurking somewhere.

Thomas

[nbagno]

Coyote hills [emoji108]


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[tgtaylor]

Yep - taken near the Don Edwards Wildlife Refuge visitor's center. The Coyote Hills are in the background.


Thomas

[nbagno]

Yep - taken near the Don Edwards Wildlife Refuge visitor's center. The Coyote Hills are in the background.


Thomas

Spent many hours there doing bird photography.


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[Maris Rusis]

I'm unaware that the GG image is flipped having seen it a few thousand times. But curious bystanders who get their first look under the focussing cloth often come out with "Hey, it's upside down and wow it's in colour!" My stock replies are:

"Upside down? It's that darn lens. Meant to fix it years ago but I've kinda got used to it."
"In colour? You're lucky I'm shooting colour film today. If I were shooting black and white the view wouldn't be anywhere near as pretty."

Sometimes I get a chuckle but sometimes I get just a nod.