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Paul Cutler
28-Aug-2005, 04:21
Hi everyone,
I am going to be developing my first sheets of 8x10. I understand the usual tray development technique of shuffling the pack of film every minute (though to confess, so far I am so anxious I do one sheet at a time!). But I was wondering about the idea of stand development (especially FP4+ in Rodinal at dilution 1+100) and wondered if you could do this in a tray. Can you place the film in a tray of developer, agitate once and then leave it in the tray for 50 minutes or so and then pull it out? This would be what i would do with roll film in a tank so wondered if the technique converts.
Any advice much appreciated
Paul

David A. Goldfarb
28-Aug-2005, 04:33
It can be done, but be sure your darkroom is *really* dark, because at 50 minutes in an open tray, any small light leaks will begin to show. It's also handy to have a darkroom with a lightproof entrance, so you don't have to sit there in the dark for 50 minutes. Maybe if you can find a large enough paper safe to hold a tray, that might help.

Some people use tubes for stand development with 8x10".

Michael A.Smith
28-Aug-2005, 05:09
Stand development in a tray is more than likely to give you streaking on your negative. See the extensive discussion on the Azo Forum about this. (www.michaelandpaula.com under "Azo". Then search.)

John Cook
28-Aug-2005, 07:01
Paul, I have never done stand development with pictorial camera film in a tray.

But, as a process camera operator for a few years, I have developed my share of 8x10 litho film in trays.

As you may know, the best results for this type of film are obtained with still (or nearly still) development. Of course, the development time was shorter and we did it by inspection under red light.

I personally would begin with various varieties of dramatically reduced agitation (such as flipping the film every two or four minutes) and work my way up to total stand development.

Don't forget to use enough stock Rodinal to do the job. I believe the factory recommends a minimum of 10ml per 8x10 sheet.

Scott Killian
28-Aug-2005, 07:34
I've developed many 8x10 negs using stand development and Michael is absolutely right. The film needs to be upright to avoid bromide drag and uneven development. Make your own tubes out of ABS plastic. Everything you need to know is on the Azo forum.

Daniel Blakeslee
28-Aug-2005, 08:17
J&C Photo has 8x10 developing tubes for $15. Light-tight and very well made.

Jay DeFehr
28-Aug-2005, 09:00
Hi Paul.

Mr. Cook gives good advice here. The idea is that using a very dilute developer, with reduced agitation, promotes local developer exhaustion at the boundaries between high and low densities, resulting in exhaggerated adjacency effects, and a compensating effect. The penalties for this approach include mottling, streaking, uneven development, and increased fog. Extensive testing and experimentation are required to arrive at a relatively dependable process, and how far you can reduce agitation will depend on all of the other factors that affect development, such as: developer, dilution, tank/tube, or tray, film, subject matter, processing temp, and development time. By following Mr. Cook's advice, and beggining by using continuous agitation, and reducing agitation incrementally, you'll have a basis for comparison, by which you can determine wether there is any benefit to be had by reducing agitation, and if so, at what frequency of agitation the benefits are optimal. Pat Gainer is currently investigating the effects of EDRA (extended development/reduced agitation) techniques on curve shape (compensating effect), with special attention to the alkali content of the developer. He is using a unique, ascorbic acid/amidol developer, and his preliminary results seem promising, regarding the effectiveness of his developer for EDRA techniques. Perhaps he'll publish his findings in another of his excellent articles which appear in Photo Techniques magazine. Good luck.

Jay

Richard Rankin
28-Aug-2005, 09:53
With all due respect to the above posters, all of whom would know far me than I do, I would suggest that you take one step at a time. From your post, it sounds as if you have never developed your own B&W sheet film before. If that is the case, I'd suggest you get a technique (any technique) down pat, then branch out. If you don't have experience with negs you've developed, I think experimenting, trouble-shooting, etc is going to be far more difficult with alternate methods.

As someone probably closer to your experience, I'd suggest a tube/drum and roller motor to start. You can get a Unicolor type tube/drum and motor on Ebay for very little money. You only need to load the tube in the dark, easily done in a changing bag or tent. Then, when you get some results, see if stand development, etc is helpful to you. I started with trays becasue I thought it would be easier, but drum/motor is the way to go, in my opinion.

And, also from experience, don't be afraid to do one sheet in a tray, then after a time or two, try 2 sheets, etc. If you try 4 at once, as a beginner, you are almost certain to nick some emulsion somewhere. By doing one sheet at a time, you start with success and build on it.

In the event you ignore all of this and start tray stand development, I used to do lith printing (also a technique requiring long times of materials in chemicals). I used to put the chemicals in an 11x14 tray and then cover it with an inverted dark 12x16 tray or use an 8x10 and cover with an inverted 11x14. You can rock the bottom tray fairly easily like this and cut down on potential light problems.

Good luck,

Richard

Steve Sherman
28-Aug-2005, 10:11
Paul,
Do not try developing film with this process in a tray. Film must be in a vertical orientation while still I do
myself develop film in an open tank for the necessary time in a darken darkroom. My times have gone as
far as 120 minutes, although I have scaled things back with dilution and agitation modifications.

I wrote two articles about this process in the March / April and July / August issues of View Camera
Magazine, these would be good reading if you are unfamiliar with the process.

Also, I am writing another article as a practical approach to this process as there has been far too much
emphasis put on the scientific reasons why this technique works and not enough discussion on how this
technique can yield creative possibilities not possible prior to this discovery.

Good Luck, keep us posted

John Berry ( Roadkill )
28-Aug-2005, 10:59
I use semi-stand development and wouldn't go back. I would say go right into it, there is no reason to do another procedure if you are going top do somthing else later. It HAS to be done verticle for the reasons already stated. I made 3 tanks for 4 Kodak 8X10 hangers out of clear 1/4 inch acrylic. You have to use the acrylic cement, first time JB weld has let me down. 1/8 inch would be too flexible. Inside dimentions: 10.5 X10.5X2.5 inches. Just right for 4 ltrs of developer. I develop Fp-4, shot at 100, in pyrocat-hd 1.5:1:200 for 23 min @ 72. Two ASA agitations with 12 min left. Negs are keyed to new Azo #2 and carbon. DR of about 1.6 I also develop by inspection with night vision goggles. The night vision goggles aren't necessary till you use them once, then they are indespensible. I can focus at minimum distance and inspect negs as they develop, inches away, and study them. The IR source has no effect even with long, close, continous examination on Fp-4. With fp-4 you can watch the emultion side, with Acros you have to watch the base side.

Donald Qualls
28-Aug-2005, 11:51
You know, it's kind of funny. When I first heard of stand development a couple years ago, there were all sorts of warnings about streaking and bromide drag if the film was *not* lying flat; stand development (with glycin based developers, primarily) was originally done with glass plates lying flat in a tray, when dry gelatin glass plates were state of the art.

FWIW, what I'd expect to be the major problem with stand developing sheet film flat in a tray is that the film may tend to float in some developers, which would cause unevenness and potentially aerial fog or staining (which might be mistaken for bromide drag). True bromide drag won't occur when the film is level, because it's due to density induced circulation causing local underdevelopment -- and there's no place for developer that has changed density to flow to if the negative is level; at most, you'd get tiny circulation cells similar to those produced by very mild local heating.

In any case, I've done stand development with film in a vertical position (roll film on a reel), and it works fine; I've never done it with film flat, but there are hundreds of negatives from the 19th century that were developed this way without bromide drag or streaking.

Do, please, test first, before committing important images (and test with single sheets, obviously, or even better with smaller format, i.e. cheaper film), but I don't see any reason flat stand development shouldn't work, as long as you have a means to keep the film from floating to the surface (mounting it in a developing panel would be ideal for this).

Paul Cutler
29-Aug-2005, 03:50
Thanks very much for the advice everyone - very much appreciated. I think I will look into the tubes idea first as a good way of keeping the film vertical.. I will keep you posted on any results.
best wishes
Paul

Geert
29-Aug-2005, 05:31
I develop 4x5 sheets of FP4+ in Rodinal 1+200, stand development . I use 2 litres of solution, but 1 liter also works fine but I just want to be sure that all is well covered with developer.

I can put 6 sheets in a spacer divided tray, so the sheets don't get a chance to cover one another.
Once the sheets are in the tray, I put a larger black tray up side down over the developing tray and light the safelight.

50' does the job.

G

Geert
29-Aug-2005, 05:36
I must add that I tested the method for inserting the sheets in the tray very well and came to the conclusion that, if well inserted, all sheets are covered.
And I add initial agitation for the first 30".
Never had fogging, streaking...

G

j.e.simmons
30-Aug-2005, 09:35
I've tried various minimal agitation techniques with the film flat in a tray - both emulsion side up and emulsion side down - HP5+ and Efke PL100 - both in 4x5. Almost all of the negatives developed this way had streaks running the entire length of the film. I don't know if it was bromide drag, oxidation or something else, but the negatives were not printable.

I then switched to using vertical tubes. No streaks. I've now begun using open ended tubes in a tray, so that the film is horizontal but curled into a tube (as described by Sandy King on APUG). I don't see the streaks using this method, either.

Ole Tjugen
30-Aug-2005, 09:48
The main problems with stand developing in trays is that the film has an ugly tendency to float to the surface, leading to streaks. With the emulsion side down it likes to sink to the bottom - giving streaks again. If you can manage to keep the film properly submerged throughout development, stand development in trays is very, very nice.

Some developers are more prone to streaking than others. I have had my best results with half-strength FX-2 - all sizes, all orientations, all films, 90 minutes at 20 C. I "cheated" a bit with the sheet films though - I used glass plates :)