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B.S.Kumar
16-Apr-2018, 14:59
With the demise of Acros, and the looming exit of Fuji from the B&W segment, other manufacturers have increased their prices considerably.

Where are the people who castigated Fuji for their greedy ways?

Kumar

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 15:08
Guilty

faberryman
16-Apr-2018, 15:13
Perhaps when the reality of the loss of ACROS hit, some photographers realized that paying more was a better option than not being able to buy at all.

HT Finley
16-Apr-2018, 15:27
God I hate digital. Just ruining everything.

John Kasaian
16-Apr-2018, 15:35
Make every shot count.
Always sound advice.

Drew Wiley
16-Apr-2018, 16:50
I've made my peace with Delta 100 for MF telephoto use, or other applications where that upswept curve handles highlights nicely. I still have ACROS sheet and roll film in the freezer for when its preferable. But large format poses no dilemmas for me because film grain is a non-issue, and I can pick films for their
speed and tonality instead. Using FP4 in the 8x10 at the moment because I'm too much of a cheapskate to thaw any expensive TMY400. Just went thru hell
working out the protocol for generating separation negs for DT printing from color negs, via interpositives first. Getting very close. But this kind of foolishness eats up a lot of 8X10 TMX 100. Looked at one of the near-miss green separation negs and said, hey! ... so I printed it today as a black and white print onto MGWT just as if it had been taken on ortho film to begin with.

uphereinmytree
16-Apr-2018, 17:53
I'm poor and the cost of shooting 8x10 is prohibitive. I don't make money shooting film, so the 8x10 gear may have to go.

I'm feeling that 4-5$ per sheet is my limit for 8x10 film

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 18:09
I'm poor and the cost of shooting 8x10 is prohibitive. I don't make money shooting film, so the 8x10 gear may have to go.

I'm feeling that 4-5$ per sheet is my limit for 8x10 film

Shoot X-Ray and insist it is Art.

It's all about who can make it stick to the wall...

HT Finley
16-Apr-2018, 18:27
Truthfully, I see no reason not to use the Xray film if you have no other choice. I'm satisfied that the experimentation just on this site alone has demonstrated the capability of it being used with normal contrast results. All that you're really missing is the red sensitivity, if you buy the green stuff. So, you can't have near-infrared results out of it. But good work can net perfectly good scenics and other uses, where the average person would not suspect a thing different from pan film. When you think about it, they can make it so much cheaper from the bottom of the spectrum through green, almost to yellow. Why does it cost so much more just to get to the end of the spectrum up to red? It's non-sequitur.
Or you can totally abandon your big camera and use the little ones, just because you want pan. But theway they're going, that will be gone too, all too soon. Then we'll all be living in 1865 again. Or you can just get rid of everything and go digital. But that's not photography, that's computers. Isn't there enough computer-this, and computer-that now? Every dadgum thing in life is computer. I wish they'd never invented the dadgum things. Should have stopped at IBM 360.
To hell with it. Shoot xray film and be glad SOMEBODY is still using the hand crafts. OK, now I'm on a rant. Why doesn't somebody get wise and start trying to sell sheet films to gun stores to stock? I bet there's a ton of people walking into a gun store to look at guns, and see the little corner with all the yellow boxes and 2 or 3 cameras, that they never knew even existed. Might end up forgetting all about buying another gun, and buy one of those cool cameras and some film.

B.S.Kumar
16-Apr-2018, 18:45
We all know about X-ray film and Caffenol and all the other ways to reduce the cost of photography, plus how digital has ruined everything - except for posting on forums :)

I actually hoped to hear from the people who said Fuji was an evil, uncaring company, interested only in milking customers to maximize profit. Most of the other companies were said to be small, flexible, without the huge overheads of multinationals and are "devoted" to film and analog photography. So why the increase? Why is there not much complaining?

Kumar

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 19:22
We all know about X-ray film and Caffenol and all the other ways to reduce the cost of photography, plus how digital has ruined everything - except for posting on forums :)

I actually hoped to hear from the people who said Fuji was an evil, uncaring company, interested only in milking customers to maximize profit. Most of the other companies were said to be small, flexible, without the huge overheads of multinationals and are "devoted" to film and analog photography. So why the increase? Why is there not much complaining?

Kumar

As we have seen with Fujiroid, FUJI is perhaps practicable. End of the line. I have known many smart Japanese. Never fools. Meaning they work for the bottom line. Japan has had years of financial problems.

KODAK ignored the winds of change that they invented. Digital. KODAK did not embrace digital and their castle fell.

FUJI plans to live.

We need to get it on with DIY emulsions.

Corran
16-Apr-2018, 19:30
With the demise of Acros, and the looming exit of Fuji from the B&W segment, other manufacturers have increased their prices considerably.

Where are the people who castigated Fuji for their greedy ways?

Kumar

Mind posting some specific announcements, prices, and information for this claim?

I'm not doubting you, it's just that I have no idea of what you are talking about specifically. Is this a manufacturer price increase or a retailer? Is it significant or just a few percentage points? I know some here take pleasure in keeping spreadsheets of prices by the hour but I have no idea off-hand what the current prices for comparable Kodak/Ilford products are other than T-Max 100, since I looked recently, and it seems unchanged at B&H.

paulbarden
16-Apr-2018, 19:38
We need to get it on with DIY emulsions.

And you can do good work with DIY emulsions. Case in point - from a collodion negative I made last night:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/797/40605467025_1a8fbe3e98_b.jpg

Nodda Duma
16-Apr-2018, 19:54
I donít expect to increase my plate prices unless thereís a run on silver or I acquire a taste for more expensive beer. Doesnít have anything to do with what Fujiís doing.

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 20:05
I donít expect to increase my plate prices unless thereís a run on silver or I acquire a taste for more expensive beer. Doesnít have anything to do with what Fujiís doing.

Only drink good beer.

I have one a day.

I prefer North Coast Brewing Co Old Rasputin. 9% ABV. One is plenty. And healthy, https://northcoastbrewing.com/beers/year-round-beers/old-rasputin-russian-imperial-stout/?
ao_confirm

B.S.Kumar
16-Apr-2018, 20:06
Mind posting some specific announcements, prices, and information for this claim?

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145557-arista-edu-sheet-film-price-increase

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145518-Ilford-Price-Increase

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145483-Kodak-price-jump-for-8x10-320TXP

B.S.Kumar
16-Apr-2018, 20:09
I don’t expect to increase my plate prices unless there’s a run on silver or I acquire a taste for more expensive beer. Doesn’t have anything to do with what Fuji’s doing.

And despite the increasing delays in shipping from distributors, and the rise of prices in the US and Europe, my prices for Acros 120 and 35mm remain what they were.

Kumar

Corran
16-Apr-2018, 20:15
I've posted before about Kodak's premium for sheet film sizes. Nothing new here, and that is specific to one emulsion and the whims of a retailer, not Kodak, as far as I can tell.

The thread about Ilford is inconclusive about what the actual price changes will be, as opposed to MSRP. This is an important distinction. It's not a 50% increase overnight or anything as far as I can see.

I don't know anything about Arista's pricing - is that a Freestyle increase or manufacturer?

IMO, Fuji's constant price increases in the last few years by 20% a pop was a signal. They don't seem to want to sell film. I hope Acros was just their lowest-performing product, with the large number of competitors (yes yes I know Acros was "different" than T-Max 100 or Delta 100 but it's still competition in price), and that they at least keep making slides. But I am not optimistic on that front frankly, and moreover can't afford it much anyway.

None of these threads are manufacturer announcements about global price increases, so I'm not really seeing the issue at the moment?

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 20:19
And despite the increasing delays in shipping from distributors, and the rise of prices in the US and Europe, my prices for Acros 120 and 35mm remain what they were.

Kumar

Kumar, I was never an Acros shooter. I was ignorant of its high qualities. My fault. I regret that now, but I also don't want a new lover if she runs away.

I shot 35mm Acros last week. Wonderful...and now I am sad it will end.

John Kasaian
16-Apr-2018, 20:20
Badger Graphic still lists FP-4+ in 8x10 for $109/25, HP-5+ for $119/25
Freestyle still lists Arista (Fomapan) 8x10 for $189/50 and Arista 8x10 Ortho 3.0 for $29/25
Cxsonline lists Agfa high speed blue xray film 8x10 for $40/50 and Fuji Super RX Blue Full Speed for $31/100

There is still plenty of reasonably priced 8x10 film for us to have fun with.

Oren Grad
16-Apr-2018, 20:31
The thread about Ilford is inconclusive about what the actual price changes will be, as opposed to MSRP. This is an important distinction. It's not a 50% increase overnight or anything as far as I can see.

What Bryan said. We'll see for sure in the coming days as the dealers digest it, but from the looks of the leaked spreadsheet the Ilford price changes will amount to a routine incremental increase, not a sudden large jump.

Other things that stood out for me: the spreadsheet included stock numbers and pricing for many of the ULF and other special sizes, indicating that at least for now Harman intends to continue to provide those sizes. And the spreadsheet also listed four sizes of Direct Positive paper, indicating their intent to continue offering this product, about which there had been some doubt - and with prices unchanged.

Given overall market conditions, it seems to me that at least on the Harman front this adds up to good news, not bad news.

Tin Can
16-Apr-2018, 20:40
Now we need a link to the Ilford thread

Or not

B.S.Kumar
16-Apr-2018, 21:35
The quantum of increase aside, why did all the others increase their prices simultaneously? The drying up of supplies from Fuji would naturally increase their sales volumes, so why should unit prices increase? My point is that like Fuji, all companies are bound to do the best for their shareholders. Every company tries to keep prices competitive. Now that the highest priced product is no longer available, they see that there is margin for increasing profit.

The link on the Photrio site for the Ilford prices has disappeared. But one example was

According to the spread sheet for 35mm Delta 100 36 exp:
DP100, 35MM, 36 EXP* 019498780622 10 100 S $6.30 $9.69
The dealers price is $6.30 and the MSRP in $9.69. The current price on B&H is $6.95.

We think B&H has only a 65 cent (10%) margin on that film. We don't know what the old dealer price and MSRP were.

Laurent L
16-Apr-2018, 22:27
Don't be so worried about film price increasing...

Everything is getting more and more expensive, it's inflation -and speculation as Kumar San pointed- that's all ! :) As a social worker with a low wage, I should be devasted but in fact I'm not. Photography, especially large format photography is so important to me that I decided to make it my only hobby. It's just a question of priority! And if the films prices goes on increasing till becoming some luxury items then I will shoot less but I'll keep on having fun with my large format gear.

And talking about prices, you should be happy about the prices you pay for your films in the US. Here in France the cheapest (not outdated) HP5 4x5 box of 25 sheets is sold on the Internet at 60$ shipping costs non included. The worst is yet to come with the aftermathes of the brexit, there will be a sharp rise in Ilford products...

At that time I will buy from the USA at B&H

This is kind of silly when you think about it, films made in the UK shipped in the USA will be sent back in Europe in order for film users to save money...

Anyway that's the way things go, why can't we just feel lucky to be able to shoot fresh film ? I deeply blame Fuji for the disappearance of Astia, Reala and now Acros but knowing that Kodak and Ilford are still making some money with films I want to trust in the future of this industry even if at the end we end up with only a few different films. Just hope my dear HP5 will be one of the survivors.

paulbarden
17-Apr-2018, 07:33
So it seems to me that everyone who is getting upset about Ilford's price increase is looking at the MSRP without interpreting that figure. Nobody sells Ilford films at MSRP.
I was shopping for supplies at Blue Moon Camera on the weekend and I asked the owner about the Ilford price update, and I was told that this would translate into an increase of maybe $6 or $7 over current prices (I asked specifically about boxes of 8X10 sheet film). That seems inconsequential to me. Its not as if you are going to find boxes of 8X10 FP4+ selling for $161. once new prices settle in.

If you can afford Ilford sheet film today, you can still afford it tomorrow.

Pere Casals
17-Apr-2018, 09:54
Where are the people who castigated Fuji for their greedy ways?


I've a different point of view.

Fuji imposed a 200% overprice in LF Acros compared to MF across, per surface. This is a short term policy to make money from captive customers, bring sells down, and preparing for product line killing.

Ilford has similar per surface price in LF than MF, they have a long term business for LF film, in the same way than with paper.

Customers can be loyal to a brand, and a brand can be loyal to customers. When a brand like kodak/fuji charges a 200% overprice to LF customers, this is not nice.

Understand me, my concern is that is that they are preparing to kill LF color slide photography, and this is the assassination of a kind of art.

This is sad, and painful.

IMHO Fuji could be proud of sourcing the most powerful imaging system in the world, and promoting that from loyalty to loyal customers, and having respect for LF photography. But what I see is 2nd rate managers using MBA recipes for fastfood restaurants.

koraks
17-Apr-2018, 13:53
Supporting art is nice, but fuji is not a philanthropic organization. They're a high-volume corporation; niche products evidently don't make sense to them. You can make it an ethical debate, but that's just as one-sided a view as the conjecture about 2nd rate MBA's.

Bob Salomon
17-Apr-2018, 15:41
Supporting art is nice, but fuji is not a philanthropic organization. They're a high-volume corporation; niche products evidently don't make sense to them. You can make it an ethical debate, but that's just as one-sided a view as the conjecture about 2nd rate MBA's.

I would think that a 2nd rate MBA might be more inclined to try to cater to a dimensioning niche market!

Tin Can
17-Apr-2018, 16:00
Zinger!

Great word usage 'dimensioning'

Bob Salomon
17-Apr-2018, 16:08
Zinger!

Great word usage 'dimensioning'

Spell checker didn’t catch it.

Diminishing market

Sorry, but thanks for pointing it out!

Tin Can
17-Apr-2018, 16:14
Spell checker didnít catch it.

Diminishing market

Sorry, but thanks for pointing it out!

Sorry, I liked dimensioning as an MBA term for right-sizing production, sales, and profits.

I love words.

Diminishing is such a sad word!

Context is everything.

Bob Salomon
17-Apr-2018, 16:28
Sorry, I liked dimensioning as an MBA term for right-sizing production, sales, and profits.

I love words.

Diminishing is such a sad word!

Context is everything.

My daughter is a JDMBA I will have to ask her.

As far as I know it is a volume measurement term. But who knows!

Tin Can
17-Apr-2018, 16:34
My daughter is a JDMBA I will have to ask her.

As far as I know it is a volume measurement term. But who knows!

I make words and 'stuff' up all the time.

Somebody has to do it.

I can't wait for the professional opinion!

Bob Salomon
17-Apr-2018, 16:38
I make words and 'stuff' up all the time.

Somebody has to do it.

I can't wait for the professional opinion!

I do to, but they are usually misspellings!

Part of my job at HP Marketing was to re-write brochures, instructions and press releases for many of the companies that we represented. You really haven’t experienced new words until you have read English translations from German, Swedish and Chinese companies!
Many of them used translation bureaus in their countries that did not understand or know the photo business. But then our ad agency in NJ had the same problem!

Drew Wiley
17-Apr-2018, 16:55
The job of an MBA is to bankrupt the company almost as fast as the CEO can do it.

B.S.Kumar
17-Apr-2018, 16:56
If one reads the pdf Oren kindly compiled here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145361-Harman-Technology-Limited-financial-performance-2005-2016 as well as the comments, it may be that Harman's other businesses are subsidizing the film business. With a total turnover of £18m, operating profit of less than £1m and maybe 180 employees, comparing Fuji and Ilford is simply nuts. If Fuji tried to operate the film division at a similar scale, investors would compel management to commit hara-kiri enmasse...

Ilford is doing a good job continuing to serve analogue photographers, but that may also be due to the fact that they simply don't have the wherewithal to get into other businesses. If they could have, they would have, and maybe then their balance sheet would have looked better, instead of constantly struggling to stay alive.

Bob Salomon
17-Apr-2018, 17:04
The job of an MBA is to bankrupt the company almost as fast as the CEO can do it.

Thatís why my daughter practices bankruptcy law!

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 00:42
Supporting art is nice, but fuji is not a philanthropic organization. They're a high-volume corporation; niche products evidently don't make sense to them. You can make it an ethical debate, but that's just as one-sided a view as the conjecture about 2nd rate MBA's.

I don't ask philantrophy from kodak/fuji just a little respect for LF photographers, starting for those that have been loyal to the brand and actively promoting their products.

This (for example) is insulting:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=177133&d=1523706552

If you want Portra in the EU you have to pay that. If they were following Ilford LF policy that box would cost 1/4.

Can Alaris source LF photographers in a fair way?



I would think that a 2nd rate MBA might be more inclined to try to cater to a dimensioning niche market!


Bob, in your long carreer you sure have seen managers of all colors, you may agree with that:


Good Manager:

- He can foresee the mid term and make a good guess for the long term.

- He is able to ensure long term viability for product lines, adjusting policies for the long term.

- He develops customer loyalty from fairness and transforms it to commercial goodwill and long term profits

- Example: Ilford policy with BW paper. This has a sinergy with film emulsion making, sharing resources.


Bad Manager:

- He can't foresee anything and he makes short term policies that kill product lines and give advantage to competition. Angry customers.

- Example: if George Eastman was alive he would be fliying a B-52 wing to carpet bombing Alaris. A way to say it, of course... :)

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 01:22
I found this document that reveals the thinking behind Fuji's transformation: http://www.fujifilmholdings.com/en/pdf/investors/other/ff_presentation_201802_001.pdf
The current CEO is no hotshot MBA. He's 79, started working for Fuji in 1963 at 24, and became CEO in 2003 at 64. He's seen film reach its peak and fall off the cliff. Unlike Kodak, Fuji embraced digital and is putting all its knowledge to use, whether it is cosmetics, healthcare or imaging. They haven't gone under like Kodak or Ilford, which is barely managing to survive. I'm glad Fuji is still producing film, even though my favorites Reala and Acros are discontinued.

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 02:05
I found this document that reveals the thinking behind Fuji's transformation: http://www.fujifilmholdings.com/en/pdf/investors/other/ff_presentation_201802_001.pdf

The graph in page 3 shows until 2011, recent years and this 2018 film market has been growing 7% yearly.

I'd like having a conversation with Mr Shigetaka, I'd make next questions.



Are you aware of LF film policy at Fuji ?

Do you think that 200% overprice in acros LF (compared MF) led to low sales and to discontinuation ?

If true, are you doing the same with LF slides ?

Is it true that you are not investing any more in the LF coating line and don't prepare the roll film line for coating LF master rolls ?

Are you aware that your policy with LF slides may end killing an amazing kind of photography ?

Would you consider a long term policy for LF slides in the same way Ilford ensured long term availability of quality BW paper ?

Why LF slides market doesn't follow that 7% yearly general growth of film market?

Can this failure be linked to that 200% overprice over MF?



PD:

IMHO Fuji staff should visit Mr Burkett darkroom and exhibition gallery. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145549-Christopher-Burkett-Interview-on-PBS

Perhaps they would realize that this kind of activity that should be promoted and not punished.

IMHO there is a comeback. Something was lost in translation in the digitalization. The autenticity and purity of Mr Burkett's way it has an inmense value that would have a brilliant future if proper conditions from industry are provided.

Doesn't Fuji realize that they own the most impressive imaging system in the world ? Why are they punishing it and not promoting it ?

Why they want to kill that instead having the honor to own that ?

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 02:26
I have no idea whether your estimate of "7% yearly growth" in the film market includes Instax, which certainly is a very large component of Fuji's film sales. As to your other questions, I'm sure he'd be delighted to have your views. Having worked in Europe, he probably speaks at least one western language reasonably well.

"Amazing" kind of photography? You can do that with collodion, Jason's dry plates, or Arista film.

Why the LF slide market isn't growing? I sold around 200 boxes of Velvia 50 8x10 last year. How many boxes of any LF film (not just Fuji products) did you and your friends buy?

I wish you wouldn't look on Fuji's policies as a "failure". They're giving up loss making (or low yielding) products to concentrate on growth sectors. Ilford is making 5% before tax, and is struggling. Hats off to them for the effort, but can your employer survive and provide you with a steady job if they make only so much? Would you be happy working for such an employer, not knowing when the company might fold?

koraks
18-Apr-2018, 02:54
Well Pere, I think there's only one solution: you start your own photographic materials company and produce color materials in sheet film formats. If you manage to sell a decent C41 film in 4x5 and 8x10 at a cost of, say, € 5 per sheet for 8x10, I'll be sure to order some from time to time. After all, you're complaining about the companies not being fair to LF users, but since you know all this and you are also a capable person, it's not exactly fair that you're not contributing to a solution. In fact, I think it's a failure on your part that you haven't started yet. It's really 3rd rate MBA behavior not to start today, given the 7% annual growth in this market segment.

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 03:18
I have no idea whether your estimate of "7% yearly growth" in the film market includes Instax,

"We’re seeing film growth of 5% year-on-year globally,” says Giles Branthwaite, the sales and marketing director at Harman.

Other sources say 7%.





"Amazing" kind of photography? You can do that with collodion, Jason's dry plates, or Arista film.


We are captive customers of Fuji for LF color slides, an amazing kind of photography. WP and DP are also amazing but this is another kind of photography compared to Velvia. Fuji can kill the velvia kind.



Why the LF slide market isn't growing? I sold around 200 boxes of Velvia 50 8x10 last year. How many boxes of any LF film (not just Fuji products) did you and your friends buy?


This is my slide asset (one year ago) https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/33608535481/in/dateposted-public/

Last year I bought 4 4x5 boxes, first is that I'm starting to shot Velvia LF, as a Velvia 8x10 box of 20 is $464 (ebay, add 25% total taxes in my case) (and I cannot pay the price of a DSLR every time I put the CAMBO SC on the tripod ) I'm enlarging 4x5 and MF to CDU II 810, 50 sheets (expired, unsealed, good and frozen for $40).

I want to shot a lot of Velvia LF, but I find 240% LF overprice over MF is nasty and unbearable for me. So Fuji pushes me to use the RB 67 and enlarging the good images to 810 CDU II.

But I'm discouraged because I feel that Fuji is to f*ck me and is to do the same than with Acros.

If Velvia 8x10 was at the same per surface price than MF (Ilford policy) you would have been selling 700 boxes perhaps, while ensuring a long term business.




Ilford is making 5% before tax, and is struggling. Hats off to them for the effort,

Yes, because the effort in investing in efficiency and flexibility for the long term. A nominal 5% profit is not that bad, see NYSE corporations.

The news I have is that Ilford is presently re-investing profit, this is a way to deliver profit to shareholders, a very common one.





I wish you wouldn't look on Fuji's policies as a "failure". They're giving up loss making (or low yielding) products to concentrate on growth sectors.

Fuji made a very good transfomation to digital, compared to Kodak. Well done

But there is no reason to kill their roots and heritage. LF 230% overprice (compared to MF) is a way to end killing LF slides like they killed Acros LF. IMHO this is painful and nasty.

Here I explain my view: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145561-Film-Price-Increases&p=1440786&viewfull=1#post1440786

With next I've said all, I've nothing else to add to that:

What I'd like is that Fuji was planing a long term business for LF slides, because it's a critical vendor for us, like ilford did with BW paper.

I feel they are squeezing present captive customers and preparing to execute LF velvia by firing squad, like acros. I'm worried, I'm sad, and I want to be mistaken.

Nodda Duma
18-Apr-2018, 03:54
Companies canít operate divisions at a long-term loss, even if the executive leadership desires to pump money into the losing business for sentimental reasons. Kodakís management made that mistake and destroyed the company. More importantly, tens of thousands of employees lost their jobs and Rochester was gutted.

Fuji is managing loss as best they can. They are being smart in trying to avoid killing off tens of thousands of jobs which, in their eyes and rightly so, are far more important than our concerns.

A poster alluded above: where there is demand there will be supply. Conversely, decisions like this do not happen in a vacuum. Without demand, there is no supply.

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 04:18
Pere, I followed your earlier posts, no need to repeat them. Fuji is not f-ing with you or me. They're trying to avoid being f-ed themselves, like Kodak.

Roots and heritage? Fuji made glass plates into the 70's. They should continue making a few hundred boxes a year? You came late to the party for Velvia and Acros. That's no one's fault.

Regarding Fuji's price increases, look at it dispassionately. If you know you have a limited stock of product, naturally you'll want to maximize your revenue. There's no sound reason for you to let hoarders make all the profit, at least if you have your investors' interests at heart.

And if you're serious about Velvia 50 8x10, I will sell you any number you want, at a 10% discount from my current price of 40,370 JPY per box. But do note that there is often a delay in shipping from the distributor.

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 04:19
Fuji today is in the digital business, the LF sheet slide business is absolutely irrelevant in their turnover.

The cuestion is if they are to kill LF velvia and to f*ck us or if they want to protect the most impressive imaging product that happened in the photography realm, by planning a long term business as ilford saved us by ensuring quality paper availability.

They even may cut velvia LF from same master rolls then roll film, and we'll use adhesive holders... we can manage that... a solution can be there, but we need a solution.

$500 the box of 20 brings velvia to the firing squad. Do Fuji realize that ? Do we realize it ?

Well, that's all...

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 04:35
Pere, I followed your earlier posts, no need to repeat them. Fuji is not f-ing with you or me. They're trying to avoid being f-ed themselves, like Kodak.

Roots and heritage? Fuji made glass plates into the 70's. They should continue making a few hundred boxes a year? You came late to the party for Velvia and Acros. That's no one's fault.

Regarding Fuji's price increases, look at it dispassionately. If you know you have a limited stock of product, naturally you'll want to maximize your revenue. There's no sound reason for you to let hoarders make all the profit, at least if you have your investors' interests at heart.

And if you're serious about Velvia 50 8x10, I will sell you any number you want, at a 10% discount from my current price of 40,370 JPY per box. But do note that there is often a delay in shipping from the distributor.

You have a fair offer, probably I'll buy from you when I can gather the money, I'm preparing a frezzer.

LF slides are absolutely irrelevant in the Fuji turnover. Velvia sheet price won't make a difference in the Fuji profits, no investor will see a difference. I hope Fuji is to understand that LF velvia is something that has to be protected.



Well Pere, I think there's only one solution: you start your own photographic materials company and produce color materials in sheet film formats. If you manage to sell a decent C41 film in 4x5 and 8x10 at a cost of, say, € 5 per sheet for 8x10, I'll be sure to order some from time to time. After all, you're complaining about the companies not being fair to LF users, but since you know all this and you are also a capable person, it's not exactly fair that you're not contributing to a solution. In fact, I think it's a failure on your part that you haven't started yet. It's really 3rd rate MBA behavior not to start today, given the 7% annual growth in this market segment.

Even a 4th rate MBA, with rudimentary understanding of BCG matrix, would see your sarcasm.

But going to the core, some companies are selling LF film at same (per surface) price than MF, ilford for example, a company that saved us by sourcing quality BW paper because they had a long term business plan.

Other companies have a short term plan, this is overpricing 200% LF products, taking the money, and sending the product to the firing squad, v.g. Acros LF.

If fuji is doing that with velvia LF (we'll see...) I won't be able to source you that product. Color slide photography will be lost for ever. We are facing that.

koraks
18-Apr-2018, 05:31
Conjecture on the short vs long term plans of companies like fuji combined with a tunnel vision scope. Forgive my sarcasm, I feel it is the only sensible response to your intellectual shenanigans.

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 05:51
Fuji has been in business since 1934. The current CEO started working at Fuji in 1963 at 24. He became CEO in 2003 at 64, and is still at the helm at 79. Your ideas about "short-term plan" don't apply here.

Instead of ranting at Fuji, perhaps you could encourage Ilford to make LF slide film and see what they think. Be happy that Fuji made some wonderful films, and buy as much as you can afford while they are still around.

uphereinmytree
18-Apr-2018, 05:57
I'm curious at what price point others may give up on sheet film?

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 05:58
Conjecture on the short vs long term plans of companies like fuji combined with a tunnel vision scope. Forgive my sarcasm, I feel it is the only sensible response to your intellectual shenanigans.

By now we have enough indications to judge:

1> We have seen the long term ilford policy for LF, this is sourcing sheets at similar price than rolls, and even cutting ULF on demand yearly. They plan to sell FP4+ sheets for ever.

2> We have seen how acros was machine-gunned, after a period of 200% LF overprice, after most captive customers dropped.

3> Now we had an interesting thread about TXP: "So here's a word from a longtime loyalist." http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145483-Kodak-price-jump-for-8x10-320TXP&p=1439921&viewfull=1#post1439921

I've no doubt that ex-factory cost of sheets and rolls are similar (per surface). A 200% LF pricing policy gives a clue about manufacturer's intentions, when doing that usually you are closing a product.

We have seen that acros LF machine-gunning, if in the near future we also see TXP machine-gunned... then Inductive Reasoning Aptitude will tell if that was "intellectual shenanigans" or not.

Corran
18-Apr-2018, 06:08
Back when I first started shooting film, I shot almost nothing but slides, in my Pentax 67. I shot probably...20-30 rolls of Provia and Velvia in a year, usually when travelling. I think they were about $4.50 apiece back then, but then I had to have them developed...but that's a whole other discussion.

When I got into LF I curtailed that a bit and really started taking b&w seriously...and realized that in south GA, E-6 was appropriate for the image only about 5-10% of the time. Even here in the mountains now, only maybe 25% of the year is color film really appropriate. I don't generally take images of clear water with grey-ish rocks and green foliage with color film. Since I can't print slides except by scanning and digital output, Velvia in MF is more than enough for me. Last year I had an offer I couldn't refuse...somebody traded me a huge stash of Velvia in 220 for a bunch of 35mm film I was never going to shoot. Now I have about 100 sheets of Velvia 4x5 and some 8x10 slides of various stripes in my freezer, along with enough 220 probably for many years.

I guess folks like Ben Horne, shooting in Yosemite and whatnot, can find a use for lots of 8x10 Velvia...but even he showed his stash last week on Instagram and noticeably a bunch of it is already out of date, sitting in his freezer (over 1/3). Globally, LF slides probably can not be shot at a rate to sustain production. I wonder if Fuji could possibly adopt a once-a-year cut like Ilford does, for LF. Last year I bought a few propacks of Velvia in 120 for a trip west. I will happily purchase fresh 120 Velvia for as long as they provide it. I might pick up some fresh 4x5 if I had a trip where I could bring my LF camera and it was a good time of year. Otherwise...I'm retired. I'm more interested in getting a color head working in my darkroom and shooting color neg, so I could actually print it for real. When Pere starts his color slide company, make sure to revive Ciba, thanks.

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 06:29
. When Pere starts his color slide company, make sure to revive Ciba, thanks.

Bryan, not E-6, but I'd be proud to send you some lumiere autochrome plates, if one day I have that working, as that's made from potatos this is the kind of technology I can manufacture with. :)

koraks
18-Apr-2018, 07:16
You're trying to reconceptualize business as being driven by your personal preferences, and understandably, you get angrier and more disappointed by the day in seeing that reality behaves differently from what you perceive to be logical, apparently leading you to suppose malevolence and short-sightedness on behalf of managers. As for Inductive Reasoning Aptitude - let's keep it at that your methodology is fundamentally flawed in several respects, mostly in the selection of factors and consistently leaving out a wide range of probably important exogenous factors, a lack of knowledge in the field of business administration, the making of assumptions due to a lack of data and consistently mixing up correlation and causation, leading you to paint a simplified picture regarding causality. That's not sound inductive reasoning, it's conjecture and intellectual shenanigans. Hence my use of these terms.

Your determination is to some extent admirable. However, I still think you're not getting very far with your activism by sticking to the same simplistic views as a few months ago. Anyway, I've said more than enough on the topic. We've seen a few months ago that any sensible debate with you on this issue is impossible.

jp
18-Apr-2018, 07:16
Pere, I want autochrome plates, with enlargements made onto dye transfer prints.

I have maintained about a 10 year stash of film I like in my freezer. I started it when Kodak went bankrupt and have added some materials to it as I use up the oldest. If film gets too expensive, I will continue to use it at least for another decade.

Tin Can
18-Apr-2018, 07:28
Pere, I want autochrome plates, with enlargements made onto dye transfer prints.

I have maintained about a 10 year stash of film I like in my freezer. I started it when Kodak went bankrupt and have added some materials to it as I use up the oldest. If film gets too expensive, I will continue to use it at least for another decade.

Exactly, keep buying and stocking. We are finite and so is store bought film.

To Infinity and Beyond!

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 08:14
You're trying to reconceptualize business as being driven by your personal preferences, and understandably, you get angrier and more disappointed by the day in seeing that reality behaves differently from what you perceive to be logical, apparently leading you to suppose malevolence and short-sightedness on behalf of managers. As for Inductive Reasoning Aptitude - let's keep it at that your methodology is fundamentally flawed in several respects, mostly in the selection of factors and consistently leaving out a wide range of probably important exogenous factors, a lack of knowledge in the field of business administration, the making of assumptions due to a lack of data and consistently mixing up correlation and causation, leading you to paint a simplified picture regarding causality. That's not sound inductive reasoning, it's conjecture and intellectual shenanigans. Hence my use of these terms.

Your determination is to some extent admirable. However, I still think you're not getting very far with your activism by sticking to the same simplistic views as a few months ago. Anyway, I've said more than enough on the topic. We've seen a few months ago that any sensible debate with you on this issue is impossible.

Koraks, for example I've read 3 times Porter's Competitive Advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_advantage

Belive me, when you overprice a product by 240% (vs MF) this is to kill it. From my knowledge what happened with across just follows a business recipe for discontinuing a product while maximizing net income. Of course they are free to do what they decide...

Please read again this post and analyze the meaning http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145483-Kodak-price-jump-for-8x10-320TXP&p=1439921&viewfull=1#post1439921

What is to happen with TXP sells ? What is to happen with the product ?

TXP emulsion is only made for sheets, this is a weakness... there is no sinergy with roll film production as TXP 120 was discontinued long ago. Are they exhausting frozen TXP emulsion ?

What we see is that ilford is caring LF shooters, raising sells and ensuring the long term. The acros case is the counter. Doesn't it?

koraks
18-Apr-2018, 08:17
Koraks, for example I've read 3 times Porter's Competitive Advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_advantage

Congratulations.

So what? What point are you trying to make anyway?


What is to happen with TXP sells ? What is to happen with the product ?
Frankly Pere, I don't care. I don't use it. I use whatever is available at a reasonable cost. This will change over time. At some point we may end up with no interesting materials in LF whatsoever. By then, if I still live and have an active interest in photography, there will be other fun things to play with. I don't feel much for making a crusade out of trying to get in the heads of managers of manufacturing firms. If there's a market for a product, the world is big enough for some enterprising individuals to make a living out of it.

Sal Santamaura
18-Apr-2018, 08:22
...We are finite and so is store bought film...

Anyone who fantasizes that commercially made film of the variety and quality they want will continue to be available for as long as they want it to be should read this post by Mirko Boeddecker of ADOX:


https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/adox-cms-ii-20-in-120.159088/#post-2068167

Tin Can
18-Apr-2018, 09:02
Good post. Mirko speaks the truth.

After the Fall, we 'could' design and make tiny factories.

I have seen, used and repaired many coating machines. Not photographic film. But huge lines of rollers spray coating Teflon, punching out sheets and automatic silk screeners applying RTV. All made from From massive rolls of steel, paper and plastic.

We need a right-sized factory, run by robots. We were doing robotics 40 years ago.


But I am retired and have enough film for 5+ years. Then we coat glass or film one at a time.

God save the Queen






Anyone who fantasizes that commercially made film of the variety and quality they want will continue to be available for as long as they want it to be should read this post by Mirko Boeddecker of ADOX:


https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/adox-cms-ii-20-in-120.159088/#post-2068167

Pere Casals
18-Apr-2018, 09:10
Frankly Pere, I don't care. I don't use it. I use whatever is available at a reasonable cost. This will change over time. At some point we may end up with no interesting materials in LF whatsoever.

Koraks, if you don't care then you don't care. I'm concerned. To me it's painful to see LF acros discontinued, and TXP and LF Velvia in danger...




Pere, I want autochrome plates, with enlargements made onto dye transfer prints.

Autochromes are absolutely beautiful, I've been digging a bit in that, having made DIY dry plates I see it not that impossible. The step from dry plates to autochromes is not conceptually complicated. It's just about mixing RGB potato starch and spreading a 1 grain layer on the on the plate before coating, then making a reversal WB process, but the 1 grain layer should be tricky.

For the dye transfer we'll need to ask to Drew... sure he would help !

Drew Wiley
18-Apr-2018, 09:55
Oh, not me! I'm a beginner at dye transfer. I have lots of appropriate gear and about 5 yrs worth of supplies, am quite skilled at making masks and color
separations, but have otherwise just practiced the piano chords, so to speak, making contact transfers. Not sufficient time yet for the real deal. My backgound
is heavily into Ciba and then RA4 printing, plus silver-gelatin b&w, of course. I absolutely love the look of Autochrome myself, but am under doctor's orders
to cut back on my starch intake.

Fred L
18-Apr-2018, 13:06
film is ephemeral, in the grand scheme of things. use it, love, mourn it.

ņ chacun son goŻt

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 15:56
I started this thread to talk about the price increases by other manufacturers after Acros was discontinued. But we got sidetracked into a discussion on Fuji's management. Can we get back on track, please?

faberryman
18-Apr-2018, 16:22
What exactly would you like us to talk about? There are other threads on the recent Ilford price increase and also on Kodak's price increase on LF film. Do you want us to repeat what's said there here.

B.S.Kumar
18-Apr-2018, 16:29
How come all the increases came around the same time that Acros was discontinued? What could be their reasoning, given that they say they want to continue producing film, and that most of their revenue comes from film? Did the absence of Fuji remove the ceiling price? Is this a test increase to see how much the market can bear? Do people think more increases are on the way?

Tin Can
18-Apr-2018, 16:33
The Ilford Special Order is now 13 days past last years offering.

Sal Santamaura
18-Apr-2018, 16:46
...Did the absence of Fuji remove the ceiling price? Is this a test increase to see how much the market can bear? Do people think more increases are on the way?Yes to all of the above. At least in part. :)

faberryman
18-Apr-2018, 16:48
How come all the increases came around the same time that Acros was discontinued? What could be their reasoning, given that they say they want to continue producing film, and that most of their revenue comes from film? Did the absence of Fuji remove the ceiling price? Is this a test increase to see how much the market can bear? Do people think more increases are on the way?
Maybe, maybe not. Does it really matter? One thing is clear: prices are not coming down.

uphereinmytree
18-Apr-2018, 17:10
film is important to me and I will buy 4x5 as long as it exists unless my broke self is literally starving. 8x10 prices may become prohibitive as its not as important to me. will 4x5 survive past other formats? will 120 outlive sheet film?

Pere Casals
19-Apr-2018, 01:34
How come all the increases came around the same time that Acros was discontinued?

We have to remember that Acros is not discontinued, what's discontinued is Acros cut sheets, rolls are still there.

As LF film is a minor share in the market, and Acros LF was a minor share of the LF film share ...the impact is zero in the global film market.

If there are other price increases this is because other factors.


IMHO now kodak is facing a volume problem with TXP, the TXP emulsion is specific of sheets, and with that high sheet price and presumably low sells it would make difficult to manufacture small emulsion batches at a competitive cost. Well, we don't know how elaborated is TXP emulsion, if it was made by just mixing TX and TMX emulsions they would have no problem...

With TMX/Y/Z they have the emulsion made for rolls, so a choice they have is killing TXP and launching TMZ in sheets. But TXP killing would be painful...
Another choice they have is replacing TXP sheets for TX sheets.




What could be their reasoning, given that they say they want to continue producing film, and that most of their revenue comes from film?

The ilford reasoning is clear: serve well customers and build loyalty.

I don't understand the Fuji reasoning, I think they were wrong in the film extintion theory and they still have not realized that there is a long term business and they should take care of it.

Instead, Kodak reasoning does not exisit, they are simply lost, they should steal an ilford manager and learn from him, market has changed and kodak does not understand the new market.




Did the absence of Fuji remove the ceiling price?

Not at all, ilford will mantain prices optimal for a long term business, they won't be discouraging film shooters, rather than abusing last captive customers their policy is expanding BW film culture to get profits in the long term.

In the color film segment Fuji/Kodak has no competitor like ilford in BW, this segment is in danger because kodak/fuji can abuse customers with more impunity, searching short term profits instead caring the market for the long term.




Is this a test increase to see how much the market can bear?

In any case this would be the wrong test, as film price is too high the right test would be lowering the price and making offers to see if lower price stimulates demand in the mid term. Problem is that market reaction is slow, because it's also about atracting new shooters, and that effect takes time.



Do people think more increases are on the way?

I don't know, in the BW segment ilford will do a long term policy, with pricing oriented to expand the users base.

Color segment is more complicated:

Fuji may understand they should follow the ilford policy, or they may persist in the "closing policy".

... and kodak it's like lottery, not even themselves know what they will do... IMHO

B.S.Kumar
19-Apr-2018, 01:51
With your deep knowledge of what every film manufacturer is doing, I would have thought you were aware that all Acros is discontinued. Fuji estimated stocks to last until October, 2018. But many large stores in the US and Europe show it as discontinued. In Japan, retailers have imposed a 5 pack limit on 120 and 35mm pro-packs. I am currently facing 2~3 week delays from my distributors.

Those "other factors" is what I wanted to know. If all those processes are "technically a joke" or "mundane", maybe you could become the biggest manufacturer of LF soon.

koraks
19-Apr-2018, 01:54
Many people underestimate the impact of "mundane" manufacturing issues. They focus on one or two critical components and brush off all the rest as "probably easy". My work in industry has told me that 99% of the real world, high-impact problems are "mundane". Mirko''s post that was linked to on Photrio is a nice illustration.

Pere Casals
19-Apr-2018, 02:24
With your deep knowledge of what every film manufacturer is doing, I would have thought you were aware that all Acros is discontinued. Fuji estimated stocks to last until October, 2018. But many large stores in the US and Europe show it as discontinued. In Japan, retailers have imposed a 5 pack limit on 120 and 35mm pro-packs. I am currently facing 2~3 week delays from my distributors.

Those "other factors" is what I wanted to know. If all those processes are "technically a joke" or "mundane", maybe you could become the biggest manufacturer of LF soon.

Sorry, I was not aware of all acros discontinuation, news was March 30, I've been disconected for a while in this matter. https://petapixel.com/2018/03/30/fujifilm-acros-100-film-to-be-killed-off-in-october-2018-report-says/

Anyway my view doesn't change, for BW film ilford will be pricing for the long term, to encourage new shooters to engage and looking forward, that competition will retain BW film prices in place.

But again in the color segment we have the same, with fuji/kodak not knowing if they are in the closing policy or making a bet for the long term.

Do you find any other mistake in this post? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?145561-Film-Price-Increases&p=1440994&viewfull=1#post1440994

Pere Casals
19-Apr-2018, 02:34
Many people underestimate the impact of "mundane" manufacturing issues. They focus on one or two critical components and brush off all the rest as "probably easy". My work in industry has told me that 99% of the real world, high-impact problems are "mundane". Mirko''s post that was linked to on Photrio is a nice illustration.

Coating master rolls for sheets is exactly the same, there is a plating that works as an end of travel when approaching the coating head to the drum, a sort of shimming, this is replaced depending on base thickness. What's the "Estar base specific treatment" ? industrially nothing !

What's for boxing the sheets, foma sells a box of sheets for the same price kodak sells the box cartoon alone (exagerating), so should not be very diffcult.

What I've been reading from Mirko is how expensive it is developing an emulsion test batch (he says the numbers), and the risk of failures with a new emulsion development, and commercial risk, and product launching cost.

B.S.Kumar
19-Apr-2018, 02:46
For want of a nail...

Pere Casals
19-Apr-2018, 03:36
Brahmajosyula, let me sumarize my view...

A film manufacturer may have a pricing policy more oriented to A) expanding or conserving the market, or B) more oriented to short term profits...


BW:

In the BW segments we have a competitor with a A policy (ilford), if the other competitor (kodak) follows B policy they will give up a painful market share, kodak follows A for BW rolls and B for BW sheets.


Color:

In the Color film segments we have a competition kodak vs fuji, with some monopolies: fuji with all slides and kodak for C41 sheets, and playing in competition for c41 rolls.

With color sheets Fuji/Kodak are in the B, with rolls more in the A but with some B trends.

In the roll film slides Fuji is in the B for 135 and in the A for 120.

koraks
19-Apr-2018, 09:41
Thanks for making my point Pere. Good illustration.

Drew Wiley
19-Apr-2018, 10:54
There has to be enough overall demand to keep up the production of the sheet base material itself at affordable cost to those who coat it. Most plastics have gone up. Even a loaf of bread has. Doesn't mean I'm going to refuse to eat. But one might have to spend more cautiously. Do you think digital is a cheap alternative? Just look at the price of a blank piece of sized paper or a quantity of ink, or at how often the expensive gear needs replacing. Photography has never been cheap.

Pere Casals
19-Apr-2018, 12:35
There has to be enough overall demand to keep up the production of the sheet base material itself at affordable cost to those who coat it. Most plastics have gone up. Even a loaf of bread has. Doesn't mean I'm going to refuse to eat. But one might have to spend more cautiously. Do you think digital is a cheap alternative? Just look at the price of a blank piece of sized paper or a quantity of ink, or at how often the expensive gear needs replacing. Photography has never been cheap.

Drew don't think film base is manufactured spacially for film, it's is a common raw material.

For example Estar base is bare PET film that is also manufactured by kodak to be served for any application:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180419192016/https://www.kodak.com/corp/industrial-materials/estar-pet-films/default.htm

Estar/PET rolls are served in a number of flavors, the one used for photographic film is hydrophile so emulsion (mostly water before drying) adheres well, this has an special treatment that is performed during the PET film manufacturing, not while coating. It can be an electrophilic treatment https://web.stanford.edu/group/Zarelab/publinks/911.pdf

Well, today digital is cheap (Nikon D610), you can shot a lot for free, you don't need to print, and if you print you spend a single paper because adjustments were made in a PC...

...but ...we are addicted to silver ! :)

Drew Wiley
19-Apr-2018, 13:54
You don't have to print when shooting chemical images either. Before people posted images on the web they looked at slides on a lightbox or using a projector. For those of us who do print, the cost of the film is a small percent of the whole process. I'm squirming at the cost of 8x10 color film, but I already have far more good shots than I'll ever be able to print. What spooks me right now is the hundreds of sheets of museum board I need.

Tin Can
24-Apr-2018, 09:34
Ilford 11X14 at B&H is at a reduced price.

Luis-F-S
24-Apr-2018, 11:10
Ilford 11X14 at B&H is at a reduced price.

Yup just got a box

dentkimterry
24-Apr-2018, 11:45
Yup just got a box

Me too!

Terry

Tin Can
26-Apr-2018, 08:48
5 left

Mine just delivered with a good expiry of June 2020