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paulbarden
14-Apr-2018, 08:58
Iím lamenting the loss of Agfaís Portriga Rapid fiber paper, finding that papers like Ilford Warmtone and Berggerís Wartmtone donít even come close to the magic of Portriga Rapid. Is there anything currently available that comes close(r) to Portrigaís look?? Thanks.

faberryman
14-Apr-2018, 09:03
Portriga Rapid has been gone for what 25-30 years? I use Ilford Warmtone toned in Photographers Formulary Polysulfide toner when I want that look. It's not the same, but it does give a rich brown tone.

paulbarden
14-Apr-2018, 09:06
Portriga Rapid has been gone for what 25-30 years? I use Ilford Warmtone toned in Photographers Formulary Polysulfide toner when I want that look. It's not the same, but it does give a rich brown tone.

Portriga Rapid has a particular value scale that is unlike modern papers, and its that tonality I’m after as much as the color. But thanks for the suggestion - I have considered that if all else fails.
Yes, Portriga Rapid has been extinct for 25 years or more.

Oren Grad
14-Apr-2018, 09:22
Portriga Rapid has a particular value scale that is unlike modern papers...

Do you have a characteristic curve that you can share so that those of us who haven't used Portriga can understand what scale you're looking for? Or can you describe it?

Peter De Smidt
14-Apr-2018, 09:43
The rumor is that it's look depend on incorporating cadmium, which is no longer allowed.

Jim Noel
14-Apr-2018, 10:16
The rumor is that it's look depend on incorporating cadmium, which is no longer allowed.

NOt a rumor, but fact. We lost more than one good paper when cadmium was disallowed.

bob carnie
14-Apr-2018, 10:18
Paul - gum over Palladium is where its at. You can create any look you want with incredible richness. I have had a complete turnaround since doing them and prefer to any silver prints.

faberryman
14-Apr-2018, 10:20
Paul - gum over Palladium is where its at. You can create any look you want with incredible richness. I have had a complete turnaround since doing them and prefer to any silver prints.
I am looking forward to your workshop at the Photrio Symposium. I hope you'll have time to address gum over platinum/palladium.

paulbarden
14-Apr-2018, 10:27
Paul - gum over Palladium is where its at. You can create any look you want with incredible richness. I have had a complete turnaround since doing them and prefer to any silver prints.

Bob, where can I learn more about this?

bob carnie
14-Apr-2018, 10:55
I am looking forward to your workshop at the Photrio Symposium. I hope you'll have time to address gum over platinum/palladium.

going to be pretty jammed that day but there will be lots of gum over palladiums at the Lonsdale show, I think Bill Schwab is delivering a bunch of them actually this afternoon and I have quite a few clients and my own in that show

bob carnie
14-Apr-2018, 10:57
Bob, where can I learn more about this?

Kerik is on the West Coast and he pretty much defined the process, also Christina Anderson has written a couple of good books to help you on your way.. Big learning curve but once you get it your are good to go... but you coat glass negs so it would be a piece of cake for you to learn

Greg
14-Apr-2018, 11:18
NOt a rumor, but fact. We lost more than one good paper when cadmium was disallowed.

Around the late 1980s, I was Lith printing using a generic Kodalith paper and getting excellent results. Then got in 2 new boxes of the paper. When I went to use it, got only B&W high contrast images without any brown tones. After a few phone calls to the distributor, was told the "new and improved" emulsion on the paper did not have any cadmium in it.

paulbarden
14-Apr-2018, 11:43
I’m guessing it was Cadmium bromide that was deemed the offending ingredient?

Fred L
14-Apr-2018, 12:07
going to be pretty jammed that day but there will be lots of gum over palladiums at the Lonsdale show, I think Bill Schwab is delivering a bunch of them actually this afternoon and I have quite a few clients and my own in that show


last Schwab sighting was a Timmys on the 401. hope Bill still has the snow tires on ;)

Jim Fitzgerald
14-Apr-2018, 12:14
Paul, carbon transfer prints can give you what you are looking for. I'm going to LightBox Gallery in Astoria tonight for two openings at the gallery. The PDX-30 show where I have an image in that show and the LightBox files where I have 10 carbon prints. If you can not make it tonight I have an opening on May 12th which is my solo show and then you can see 28 carbon prints. You can make any tone you want with carbon and I'm local.

John Layton
14-Apr-2018, 12:17
How I still miss the old Portriga! Such amazing depth in the shadows... These days I find that a combination of Ilford WT and Moersch SE-6 developer comes close while having its own qualities - but it ain't quite the same! And while I do what I can to try to stay healthy...I'd gladly accept a bit of cadmium back into my diet!

When I learned ABC Pyro back in the day with Cole Weston (great stuff with the then-available Super XX!)...he recommended Portriga #1 (contrast) as a great match with the ABC/Super XX combo, and also mentioned that the #1 had a bit of extra silver when compared to the other grades - so I laid in a bunch of this and recently discovered some unopened packets...so I will give it a try!

Ted R
14-Apr-2018, 12:22
I seem to recall three things about Portriga

very warm paper base color, definitely creamy

special surface texture

warm image tone

I also regret the loss of it.

The world hasn't stopped using cadmium, it is still in use. The EU "ban" had get-out clauses for industries using cadmium in situations for which no substitute was available, for example in the USA some metal brazing compounds use large amounts of cadmium. In order to qualify for the get-out the industry had to make a case to the EU authorities, I am sure AGFA could have done this in the case of their enlarging papers. However at the time this was going on digital image making was maturing rapidly and it is possible AGFA investigated the future economic viability of enlarging papers and decided to pull the plug rather than fight for cadmium.

LabRat
14-Apr-2018, 13:23
The biggest difference with Portriga was that it gave the highlights a golden glow separate from the image tone and the base tint (if used correctly)...

I dislike the Ilford as the image is too soft toned normally, lacks contrast (and looks unnatural if you up the contrast), and tends to turn green... (A very strong developer makes it blueish...) The paper base is heavily tinted to a warm brown... But a good "special effects" paper for the few subjects that will match to it...

I liked the Oriental warmtone, but the earlier emulsion was actually more neutral, but depending on developer you could have a warmer or a nice tame neutral full scale tone great for most all subjects, but was changed to a creamier base but with very slightly warmer tones (looks like the now gone Forte WT)... But gives you a choice of warmer or neutral blacker tones with dev choice... More versatile than the Ilford!!!

In terms of image color, the slower the WT paper, the warmer the tone... The Ilford is the slowest, but the paper grain size is as such that at Dmax, the grain size will reflect olive green light more, but the faster papers are more normally neutral to slightly warm (cold tone papers are faster and produce blacker tones as the larger grains do not reflect specific wavelengths of light colors, and have bright white bases, but do not have a finer expanded fine grain gradation due to a steeper/harder curve)...

Steve K

Bernice Loui
14-Apr-2018, 15:28
Agfa's Insignia warm tone fiber paper was very nice. Miss that one too.

rayograph
14-Apr-2018, 16:08
I used Portriga in the 80's exclusively for warm tone printing, then the 80's version of Oriental for cold tone. Almost always toned with selenium. Over the Christmas holiday I visited with folks who had one of my images printed on Portriga back in the day. I think LabRat coined it well, the highlights did have a glow about them, almost illuminated really, compared to modern papers.

Drew Wiley
14-Apr-2018, 16:22
Labrat - I have absolutely no problem getting glowing highlights with MGWT along with deep, deep black shadows. But I've never been quite able to replicate the Portriga look. And as far as the thread drifting into UV-printing, C'mon you guys. I know your prints can look lovely, but ya can't stick a sheet of paper under an enlarger for a few seconds, then five minutes later have a nice print to put in the washer.

paulbarden
14-Apr-2018, 16:29
So, I'm concluding from this conversation that there is nothing that comes remotely close to the look of Portriga Rapid in silver gelatin papers.
I guess I better use this wisely.

177142

Jim Fitzgerald
14-Apr-2018, 23:47
I have about 40 sheets of 11x14 if you are interested Paul.

LabRat
16-Apr-2018, 18:32
So, I'm concluding from this conversation that there is nothing that comes remotely close to the look of Portriga Rapid in silver gelatin papers.
I guess I better use this wisely.

177142

Don't get hooked on it, 'cuz you will be sorry when it's gone... ;-)

Steve K

paulbarden
17-Apr-2018, 17:10
Don't get hooked on it, 'cuz you will be sorry when it's gone... ;-)

Steve K

I know. I've felt that sorrow many times in the past twenty-five years.