5x12/7x17/12x20 Shen-Hao

[e]

Hi All,
Just a quick note to let you know Shen-Hao is now in the process of making 2 new ULF formats, 7x17 and 12x20 as well as their 5x12. These will be priced very, very, competitively. The 7x17 will be available in Sept. and the 12x20 later in the year. If anyone is interested I'm taking camera orders now to be shipped all at the same time to reduce the considerable air freight charges from that area of the world. I'm a Shen-Hao dealer now (Wisner/Deardorff too) so if you are in the mood for a Shen-Hao ULF camera or 4x5 to 8x10 please let me know. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Emile,

Any idea what the prices will be (other than very, very competitive)?

Also, can you provide specs (weight, min/max bellows extension, etc.) for the 7x17 and 12x20 models?

Thanks,
Kerry

[e]

Hi Kerry,
$2700.00 for the 7x17. The price for the 12x20 is to be determined soon but I'm guessing at least 1 grand less than anyone else. Not bad for titanium and teak. They will take the S&S filmholders too. All the specs will be available soon. Best, Emile

[Christopher Perez]

I'm a little behind the curve on all this. What's the price of the 5x12?

[Clayton Tume]

Emile

I have the 5x12, I'm not in the US so I bought directly from the factory agent. If I did it all over again I would by from a US dealer like yourself because the language barriers are not insignificant. My camera had some assembly issues which made it unuseable, once I'd figured out what they'd done wrong it wasn't too difficult to remedy.

While I can say the factory agent is very helpful and honest his email replies are hard to interpret. So I'd recommend everyone support Emile and let him sort out the technical problems.

Emile, I asked them awhile back for reducing backs, they said sometime soon (at least that's the way I read it). Can you find out for me what they'll have and when? I'd like 4x5, 5x7 and 4x10

Clayton

[e]

Clayton,
Fortunately I have a good Chinese friend who is always traveling to and from Shanghai on business and will be there in a few days to make sure things go as planned. I will have him ask about the reducing backs. These backs are for the 5x12, correct?
Christopher, if memory serves, the 5x12 is $2450.00.Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

[Clayton Tume]

Emile.........yes for 5x12........I'm happy to buy them through you when they become available.

thanks

Clayton

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I'd like 4x5, 5x7 and 4x10

Clayton,

Unless you already have some 4x10 holders, I recommend you get the holders FIRST and then have the back made to fit the holders (send the maker a sample holder to properly size the back). There are at least three different sizes of 4x10 holders currently on the market - Canham, Lotus and Wisner. The Canham and Lotus holders are close enough that one back could probably be made to accomodate both sizes. The Wisner 4x10 holders are a completely different size (based on old 4x10 x-ray holders).

If you don't yet have a good supply of holders in a different 4x10 format factor, I highly recommend the Canham holders for 4x10. They are by far the cheapest 4x10 holders ("cheap" being a relative term). They are readily available, well made and rugged.

Kerry

[Clayton Tume]

A good point Kerry.........not one I'd thought through.

Currently my stock of 4x10's is zero so I have a few options.

Did Mido also make them?

Clayton

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Did Mido also make them?

Yes, they did and I have some. They were made in the "Wisner/x-ray" size. They are thinner (using a clamshell adapter) and lightter than regular holders. Unfortunately, I never found them as reliable as regular holders.

I recently finished part 1 of a 2 part article on the 4x10 format for View Camera magazine. Part 1 covers 4x10 cameras and film holders and will run in the Sep/Oct issue. If you get a chance, check it out. It includes a discussion all the 4x10 holder options I know of, including pictures of 4x10 holders from Canham, Lotus, AWB, Mido, S&S, Lisco and Graflex/Kodak.

Kerry

[e]

Just got the price on the Shen-Hao 12x20. It will be $3700.00 + shipping. The custom case will be extra. Available in 90 days. Best, Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

[e]

Hi all,
Just a quick update on the Shen-Hao ULF cameras. The 7x17 is now $3700.00, Shen-Hao sent me the wrong price initially on this item. The 12x20 price will be determined in awhile hopefully by Nov/05.
Clayton, unfortunately Shen-Hao does not make reducing backs for their 5x12 or plan to, maybe Richard Ritter can do this for you. Best regards Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Emile,

The major appeal of the Shen-Hao cameras is their affordable pricing. At $3700 for the 7x17 they may be pricing themselves out of the "affordable" niche they have carved out for themselves. Supposedly, Wisner prices were going to go up on September 1, but the price for the 7x17 Tech Field is still shown as $3495 on the Wisner web site. Richard Ritter showed 7x17 camera of his own design at the LF Conference back in May that will be priced at $3000. Jim Chinn's 7x17, if it ever reaches the market will be priced at less than $3000 (last I heard it was in the $1950 - $2150 range, including two holders). At $3700, the 7x17 Shen-Hao looks a lot less interesting than it did at $2700.

Kerry

[Ken Lee]

Hi Emile -

Are these prices for purchases made directly from Shen-Hao, or through a distributor ?

When I purchased my 8x10 from Shen-Hao directly, shipping for the camera and case was around $250. It was via Fed-Ex and once sent, the camera arrived very quickly, virtually overnight. I presume the cost may be a little higher for larger cameras - or do the quotes reflect shipping from the distributor ?

For what it's worth, I was asked to wait one month after ordering. I presume that the 8x10 model was/is made, or finished, on demand.

[e]

Hi Kerry/Ken,
I agree that the price is much less attractive now, but for a 7x17 Ebony clone in teak and titanium it still might be a good deal esp in lieu of the fact that it can be delivered as fast or faster than any other company. If I had to get a 7x17 quickly Shen-Hao would be on my list as a worthwhile option. Ken, this is the factory/dealer price with no distributor. I think Shen-Hao's knee-jerk Fed-Ex shipping price on the bigger cameras is $250.00 as this is the exact same cost for shipping on the 7x17. The camera total w/shipping is $3950.00. The case is $65.00 extra. With Wisner prices expected to go up only time will tell if Shen-Hao are pricing themselves out of the mrket. Best, Emile.

[Ken Lee]

Hi Emile -



Sorry if I was unclear: I am not complaining about the prices. I am merely asking whether the prices that you provided, are for purchase directly from Shen Hao, or for purchase through a distributor.



Thanks !

[Ken Lee]

Oops - I missed your perfectly clear explanation. Sorry ! Thanks for the info !!

[Clayton Tume]

Ignoring the pros and cons of price, the major advantage for me buying Shen Hao was delivery a month after order. Who else offers that kind of service with odd size and ULF cameras?

I don't know about others here but when I need equipment for a job I usually need it now, not 2 years down the track.

Clayton

[e]

Indeed! Delivery times are not an inconsiderable part of the ULF experience. I've heard waiting times for Canham are now up to 1.5 years, Ebony many months..., Wisner....remains to be seen... till they get situated....so add that up to what you think your total life time shooting with ULF will be and you will probably have a big percentage of that time just waiting for the camera to arrive let alone working the bugs out. IMO getting the camera fast is really where it's at no matter what the price. Best regards, Emile.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Indeed! Delivery times are not an inconsiderable part of the ULF experience.

OK, that begs the question... Has anyone ACTUALLY received a 7x17 Shen-Hao? The first I read of the coming of a 7x17 Shen-Hao was 11 months ago. Have they actually shipped any of them yet, or is it still "vaporware".

I'm not trying to bash on Shen-Hao. Just trying to understand the true state of price and availability of their 7x17 model. Until they are shipping cameras, their availability is no better than anyone else. At least I've seen a 7x17 Canham, a 7x17 Wisner and a 7x17 Lotus. So, I know they exist.

I think it's great that Shen-Hao is entering the ULF market and I hope they are wildly successful. But, I must admit I am disappointed in their sudden price increase from $2700 to $3700. At $2700, I would have considered buying one. At $3700, I will definitely have to pass.

Kerry

[e]

The 7x17 is promised to be delivered in 30 days by Shen-Hao. That is probably the time it takes to make one. I just think no one has ordered a 7x17 yet. I had an order for one paid in full but the customer backed out when the "New" price was announced. He was willing to pay the new price but found a used Canham instead for less. But I'm sure this is not "vaperware" Kerry. I'm thinking that it will probably be the best 7x17 in the world besides Ebony (has Ebony ever made a 7x17??). This camera will be stronger than the Canham, cheaper than the Ebony, delivered faster than anyone in the biz.Where else can you get titanium hardware for that price? The more I think about this camera the more I like it. Best regards, Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

[Richard Fenner]

Hi Emile

Kerry mentioned weight and bellows extension in his first post, but we're none the wiser on these critical subjects yet. Also, is the cost given ex-China, or within the US, and if the latter, what taxes/charges have been accounted for? (A number of other LFers are also outside the US, and it helps if we can work out the taxes we're liable for.)

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

But I'm sure this is not "vaperware"

Emile,

Until Shen-Hao actually ships a 7x17 camera to a customer, it is, by defnition "vaporware".

I'm thinking that it will probably be the best 7x17 in the world besides Ebony (has Ebony ever made a 7x17??). This camera will be stronger than the Canham, cheaper than the Ebony, delivered faster than anyone in the biz.

I'll reserve judgement until I actually see one in the flesh. Whether or not it is better, stronger and delivered faster than anybody else's 7x17 remains to be seen. Perhaps it will be all of the above, and more. Perhaps it will not. Until they ship product and people actually start using them, we just don't know.

Where else can you get titanium hardware for that price?

Personally, I'd prefer hard black anodized aluminum. It's much lighter, less reflective, plenty hard/strong, corrosion resistant, easier to machine, cheaper, etc. in general than titanium alloys. The choice of titanium alloy may add to the prestige factor (for those who are into that), but it also adds substantially to the weight of the camera. Combined with the teak wood, this will more than likely make the Shen-Hao the heaviest 7x17 on the market. Their 5x12 model already weighs more than the 7x17 Canham, the lightweight Wisner models and, of course, the Phillips. Any idea how much the 7x17 will weigh? When you finally get one in, please put it on a scale and post the actual weight

The more I think about this camera the more I like it.

I've come to the opposite conclusion. I must admit the sudden "price increase" from $2700 - $3700 has put me off. While I might be willing to put up with a heavy camera, if the price is right, that $1000 price increase suddenly makes me want to look for something lighter. Too bad I missed out on that used Canham. There was also a "new" 14 lb. 8x20 Wisner that went begging on eBay last week with an opening bid of $3749 and not a single bidder. Unfortunately, while I have a few lenses capable of covering 7x17, only one of them will cover 8x20 (just what I need, an excuse to buy more lenses).

Kerry

[e]

Kerry, Shen-Hao primarily made an emailed pricing error on the 7x17. It was not a change of mind about the price.There is a big language barrier here so mistakes can happen. I tend to try to be positive about these kind of things. Instead of defining the 7x17 as "vaporware" I think of this as a camera in final development which it is. They came out with a real 5x12 so I would think that they would not intentionally lie about the 7x17/12x20. But it does take time to put a camera out so there can be delays. I'll take titanium or brass any day of the week over aluminum esp for the same price, it just feels better to my hands. I do wish they would make their camera out of cherry or mahogany though. I think the 8x20 Wisner on Ebay had a 24" bellows. Pretty short for the format. Probably a hard sell. Shen-Hao will probably put out all the specs on the wesite when they are ready to or have the time. They have not sent these out to me. But the Ebony 7x17 if made in mahogany is quoted as being 18lbs approximately. Probably the Shen-Hao will be close to that. A few lbs in ULF makes very little difference to me in application. And it will probably make for a more solid camera. The only downside is that when in vertical more stress is apparent. Richard, I have no idea of what custome/taxes will be outside the US. But...I still think this will be a serious ULF camera to be considered mainly because of the potential short delivery times and the fact that potentially this might be one of the best ever. Emile.

[Richard Fenner]

Emile, to clarify:

I'd like to know if the prices you've quoted are direct from the manufacturer in China, which means even those in the US may have extra taxes/charges on top; or if the prices are for cameras you will firstly import into the US, check over, then ship on (in which case taxes/charges will already have been paid by you).

[e]

Richard,
Those were the prices quoted to me direct from Shanghai China. They may or may not include extra customs/taxes expenses on this side of the ocean. If there are extra customs or taxes the customer is responsible for these. Emile.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I would think that they would not intentionally lie about the 7x17/12x20.

Emile,

The term "vaporware" doesn't implicitely imply that someone is lying about a product. Vaporware is simply a term for a product that has beeen announced, talked about, rumored, advertised, etc. but has yet to reach the market. It is a product that is supposed to be on the way, but isn't actually shipping yet. The first rumor I read about the 7x17 was 11 months ago. Back in January, Shen Hao confirmed they had plans to bring a 7x17 to market. Here it is September and nobody has even seen a picture or specs on their 7x17 model, let alone an actual camera. Such delays, as you correctly pointed out, are common in the ULF market. The difference is that while Wisner, Canham, Phillips, etc. all have a waiting list to get their ULF cameras, we at least know that they exist and have used them, seen them in person, or at least seen pictures of them. I have no doubt Shen Hao will eventually bring their 7x17 camera to market, but until they do it only exists in our minds. As of today, I'd put Jim Chinn's ULF cameras in the same vaporware category. They've been talked about for months, but as far as I know, nobody has actually seen one. At least Richard Ritter has shown a functional prototype of his 7x17. So, we know it exists in the physical sense.

At this point, we know nothing about the Shen Hao 7x17, except the price. We have no idea what it will look like, how long the bellows will be, what movements it will have, how much it will weigh, how well it will handle wide angle lenses, etc. But, we do know that it will cost $3700 (plus shipping and possibly import duties). For example, will it simply be a larger version of their 5x12. Or, will it be something entirely different? We don't know. A few weeks ago, they briefly mentioned an FCL717-A model on the "Company Introduction" part of their web site. That got me wondering if their 7x17 model will be similar in design to their new FCL810-A 8x10 model (which shares many basic design characteristics with the Phillips cameras). So, any idea if their 7x17 model will be an HZX model, similar to their 5x12, or an FCL model that shares the same basic design concept with their new 8x10? Any insight into this? Have you seen any pictures or drawings of a prototype? Or, does it indeed just exist in our minds at this time?

I'll take titanium or brass any day of the week over aluminum esp for the same price, it just feels better to my hands.

It all depends on the quality of the finish work. The two smoothest operating field cameras I've ever used, the ARCA-SWISS F-Line and the Layton L-45A are both made out of black anodized aluminum. I personally think Ebony makes the finest wooden cameras in the world, but when it comes to the smoothness of operation, they feel downright crude compared to the precision of an ARCA-SWISS. Also, of you look at the finish of the metal work under a loupe you will see the surface of the titanium parts on an Ebony look extremely coarse while the surface of an an ARCA-SWISS is very smooth. Of course, both cameras are beautiful in their own right, and most importantly capable of making beautiful images limited only by the skill of the photographer. So, I personally like the "feel" of finely-finished aluminum hardware - especially the way it feels in my backpack when I'm lugging it up a steep mountain trail. But, to each his own. Some people may prefer the more traditional look of polished brass, titanium or stainless steel over the more modern look of black anodized aluminum, but that's a different issue. Of course, anodized aluminum can come in a huge variety of colors. Wisner uses gold colored aluminum hardware on many of his cameras to give his customers the traditional look they may prefer combined with the weight savings of aluminum. There's no right or wrong here, just personal preference.

Kerry

[Ken Lee]

When cameras start to move up into this price range, the idea of a build-it-yourself kit starts to sound more attractive to me, and I am someone with only the usual high-school shop-class training, and have no special tools.

Would it be feasible to scale-up the plans of an existing wooden camera, to ULF sizes ? I presume that a simple classic monorail design is easiest, and would violate no extant patents or trademarks.

I am suggesting an "open-source" camera kit, if you will... can you spell LINUX ?

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Before I decided to get the James Chinn camera, I was looking into making the Sinar P conversion. All you need are the standard bearing parts and you can make your own box for the back and make your lens board holder. David Flockhart did this and was kind enough to e mail me directions on how to do them. You can see his camera at the mamut photo site.

http://www.mamutphoto.com/ULF/other.html

I think the Chinn cameras will be a really good deal, last time I talked to him he had finished my camera and now is in the process of making the holders, but if I had not had this option, I would have gone the adapting the Sinar P.

[robert_4927]

I have probably have the last -to -date Wisner 8x20. It is the Expedition model with gold anodized aluminum hardware, 40 inch sheep skin bellows- weight: 14lb. Now I have a titanium Driver ( Titelist 983 to be exact) Which I understand makes me swing faster when I play golf. I also have a Father-in -law that is a retired metalurgist for the now defunct U.S. Steel Corp. He laughs when I discuss titanium cameras. Those who argue that titanium is the cats ass don't know squat about metals as far as he is concerned. He says. " think about application". Titanium is a great metal. There will be the argument that they build racing bikes out of them, so they have to be lighter and better than aluminum. But how many times will your camera go over a ten foot jump, do two flips and land on it's mounting screw. As for it feels better in my hands... they can finish stainless and aluminum to the same micron finish as titanium, so throw that one out the window. In design, they can actually use design techniques such as honeycomb design to make fiberglass and aluminum even lighter than titanium. It is a great marketing ploy but it will take more than the claim it is "Titanium and Teak so it has to be the best in the world" to sell me a camera. Not to mention that no one has even seen one of these cameras yet let alone even tested one. But the biggest point not even made yet is the slight contribution to the destruction of the American economy that Shen-Hao is making. It won't be long before they'll be claiming. " Coming soon to a Walmart near you". Now if I have to explain this we better find a different forum.

[robert_4927]

Sorry ...Wine induced typing. That should have read, " There will be the argument that they build racing bikes out of it"

[e]

Kerry,
Your are right.... my aluminum Linhof is the smoothest and most precise camera that I own, besides the Leica. Too bad no wooden field manufacturers have seen fit to put that kind of craftmanship into the metal of the current family of wooden field cameras. So this is a mute point. Robert...actually my cameras take a lot of beating so I would like to have the toughest metal available. Aluminum is fine on my Wisner 7x17 and 12x20 but like it or not... weight not being a factor....IMO Brass feels the best to me with titanium coming in 2nd and aluminum (current quality grade used) dead last. And if you want to know about the strength of aluminum just ask Ron Wisner about the UPS damage rate of his ULF cameras. The aluminum, not the wood is what is damaged. One dropped box in shipping will bend aluminum silly. I have received more than one camera with this kind of shipping damage. And....as to Shen-Hao destroying the American economy...give me a break! Ask Keith Canham how he feels about this. Last year he told me that he would be really happy if other companies completely took over the ULF market. The reason...not enought profit in ULF for him. Bye.

[Clayton Tume]

I think the use of titanium in field cameras is a gimmick.........an attempt to add snob appeal no less. I was a machinist for 20+ years before I moved into photography full time, so I'm familiar with engineering properties of various metals. For me painted or plated mild steel will do the job just fine. Aluminum may be ok in a monorail or technical camera where parts are either cast or extruded but in a field camera it's not ideal for some of the reasons Emile explains above.

When I ordered my 5x12 I asked for black painted finish on metal parts as I prefer that look but they said only the standard titanium finish could be supplied. If I ever get the time an hour with a spray can should fix that.

Clayton

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I think the use of titanium in field cameras is a gimmick.........an attempt to add snob appeal no less.

For this, we can thank Lance Armstrong (or at least the Lance wannabees) and the credit card companies. Titanium isn't even a precious metal, but has a certain cachet these days because the credit card companies have convinced the average American consumer that carrying a piece of plastic with the word "Titanium" on the front somehow offers them higher social status than a similar piece of plastic bearing the lowly "Gold" or "Platinum" monikers.

Aluminum may be ok in a monorail or technical camera where parts are either cast or extruded but in a field camera it's not ideal for some of the reasons Emile explains above.

Aluminum can also be easily (and relatively affordably) milled into complex shapes using CNC milling machines. The parts can be thicker where they need structural strength and they can be thinner and contain voids where less strength is needed. Titanium alloys, on the other hand dulls cutting tools at a ferocious rate. The problem Emile cited is not a failure of the material, it's a failure of the design. Designing a camera to use brass hardware, and then simply replacing the brass with aluminum is bound to lead to issues with stuctural strength. To get the best combination of strength and light weight, a camera should be designed from the ground up based on the material from which it will be built. If you look at a Linhof TK45S, an ARCA-SWISS F-Line or a Canham DLC it is obvious they were designed from the start to be made out of aluminum.

We've drifted a bit off topic, but to declare an unseen camera as "the best" simply based on choice of material seems premature. Ultimately, no matter what material is chosen, the "feel" of the camera - the smoothness of operation, the rigidity, etc. - have a LOT more to do with the design and the quality of the construction than the "prestige" associated with the materials selected.

Kerry

[e]

Actually I said that the Shen-Hao 7x17 "potentially" might be one of the best ever. I left room for doubt there, intentionally I might add. I agree that it would be best if a ULF camera was designed from the ground up from scratch. I'm kind of surprised though that the Layton or Walker camera companies did not go this route... for at least an 8x10 or 11x14 model. That would have been really something. Anyway...I just received an e-mail from Shen-Hao profusely apologizing for the error in the original price given for their 7x17 and also for the fact that they have no pics or specs yet. These will not be available as soon as we would like but they promised them when the metal parts were completly finished which is being done as we speak. Best regards, Emile.