View Full Version : Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Outlet questions
I wish to install some Kodak safelights to the darkroom ceiling, the older Model C with a Pull Chain Cord Switch Control. They will be mounted firmly on the Kodak brackets.
Actually wired with the original 2 prongs plug. Do I need a 3 prongs plug to have the protection from the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Outlet?
As wet hands can be possible, what is the best material for attaching to the Pull chain to make it longer? coton cord?
Thanks for the info.
Louie Powell
7-Apr-2018, 05:02
What material is used for the housing of the safelights - metal or plastic? The concern here is that if the safelights have metal housings, a failure within the safelight could cause the housing to become energized and present a shock hazard. If metal, the truly correct answer is that they should be rewired to include a ground connection between the metal housing and the building ground. That way, any failure within the safelight that causes the housing to become energized would be protected by the GFCI outlet. Important - that means that you need a three-conductor cable in addition to a three-prong plug so that the building ground can extend to and connect to the metal housing of the safelight. If plastic, that isn't necessary.
However, if the ceiling is high enough that a person standing on the floor cannot touch the safelight and its metal housing, then it may be technically OK to not rewire the safelights. But understand that there are two issues here - what is correct in engineering terms, and what is required by local codes. I don't know what Quebec codes require.
In the US, a fan or light that is over a bath tub or shower must be protected by a GFI receptacle. The theory is that in the event of a failure in the fan/light, steam from the tub/shower could form a conducting path that could cause a person in the tub/shower to receive an electrical shock. I would not expect there to be any steam in a darkroom, so I don't think that scenario applies. But ultimately, your local electrical inspector is the only person who has the authority to interpret the application of the code to this situation.
I would definitely want to put some kind of insulating material between the pull chain and the cord that you actually touch when you switch the lights on/off. Heavy cotton or hemp cord is fine, or light-weight plastic rope.
I'm not really comfortable with the idea of pull-cord switches in a darkroom. My darkroom is wired to have the switch next to the door serve as a master switch for everything in the darkroom. Then, I have a bank of switches at the enlarger to turn off the overhead white light, and also to turn on the receptacles that feed the safelights.
Gary Beasley
7-Apr-2018, 05:18
Do not use nylon cord if there is an electrical hazard, it will carry a charge. Polypropylene is the recommended material for handling high voltages. For sure rewire if the design allows it. And I agree about using a wall switch if you can put one in. I actually have my safelights controlled through the enlarger timer and only gets powered up during a print session.
... Do I need a 3 prongs plug to have the protection from the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Outlet?
...
I'm 99% sure the answer is "no"; you do not need a 3 prong plug for GFCI. They work by detecting the power being grounded by you. Since I'm not an electrician, I won't say 100%.
I assume, however, that the gfci itself is grounded. Some very old wiring may have used 2 wire instead of 3 wire cable.
This doesn’t answer your question.
It’s what I do.
Install a GFCI Breaker in your main box that feeds everything in the darkroom.
Then I use wireless remote controls to turn safe light and white lights on and off.
I have ‘Zap’ brand. There is a red led on the plug side I gaff tape cover.
I don’t rewire anything.
I'm not sure what US regulation has to say about this, but in most codes, if you rewire appliances, they are not covered by their certification anymore. So if this light is made, tested and certified for use with 2-wire, then use 2-wire to connect it.
A GFCI does not to be earthed itself to function, but the earth connection is needed for the test button to work. They work by comparing the current in the live and neutral wire. If there is a current imbalance larger than their design current, they break the circuit.
Another solution is to have a plug or connection to the safelight that is turned on and off by a wall switch rather than the pull chain. Makes it so you don't have to touch the safelight fixture at all.
Keep in mind that risk posed by a nylon or cotton pull cord on a safelight plugged into a gfci pales in comparison to the risk posed by your enlarger and (presumably) metal cased timer.
And will "box" mounted gfci outlets, the downstream outlets can be wired so that they are protected or not protected. If you're not sure, best to test with a device like this (https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instruments-GFI6302-Receptacle-Professional/dp/B000RUL2UU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1523107971&sr=8-3&keywords=gfci+tester).
Yes, once a year check all GFCI outlets with that type device.
Plug it in and live another day.
All of the above answers are helpful. To be clear though you do not need a grounded outlet for a GFCI to be wired up. (See Havoc's comment above.)
Best solution would be to rewire the whole circuit --the others are more of less compromises or work a-rounds and may be very satisfactory
for your purposes.
My house, built in the 1950's uses a two wire system. When rewiring anything in the house, if possible, I use 3 wires (the third being the ground) from the inside electrical panel.)
FYI, I have been a building inspector (ICC certified) for the past 14yrs for a county in SC.
Thanks all for your input.
Kodak Safelights model C is metal, very similar to Model D except model D have 3 wires and grounded.
Here a model D (took on eBay)
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My model C socket is this one
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2 wires, no ground and non polarized plug. You can see also the ON-OFF chain mechanism.
As the cord is pretty stiff I wish to change with new cord, the one I have is polarised plug (at right in the picture).
I supposed that it is not a problem to replace a non polarized by a polarised plug. I will plug it correctly NEUTRAL, wider blade, ribbed wire on the silver screw.
I read online "Most non polarized appliances are double insulated" but no explanation about the double insulated. Is it relied on security feature?
The 2 circuits added in the darkroom is GFCI but adding an outlet on the first appearance in the line. The 3th circuit, the original 2 room outlets are not near the sink and not really used. Rfesk, the problem is not the house circuits but only the safelights that came with non grounded plugs. My question was about if the non grounded is still GFCI protect. Answer look yes.
We can see the same problematic of grounded vs non grounded safelights also in the Kodak model B (round 5 1/2" filter) Newer model is 3 wires grounded and older is 2 wires non grounded. Illustrations from eBay.
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Another safetly question. If I said that I will turn OFF the lamp before touching it, for reoriented it for example. Is it better to unplug it or the Chain pull ON-OFF will cut all current into it.
If plugged into a circuit with a properly working gfci, I think you're being overly cautious. Of course, I'm not the one at risk.
So that said, if you are really concerned about a short in the safelight, turning it off by the cord would probably not be adequate as it's turning off power to the bulb but not to the device as a whole.
If plugged into a circuit with a properly working gfci, I think you're being overly cautious. Of course, I'm not the one at risk.
So that said, if you are really concerned about a short in the safelight, turning it off by the cord would probably not be adequate as it's turning off power to the bulb but not to the device as a whole.
Good point!
We can see the same problematic of grounded vs non grounded safelights also in the Kodak model B (round 5 1/2" filter) Newer model is 3 wires grounded and older is 2 wires non grounded. Illustrations from eBay.
176796
Another safetly question. If I said that I will turn OFF the lamp before touching it, for reoriented it for example. Is it better to unplug it or the Chain pull ON-OFF will cut all current into it.
To be perfectly safe, why don't you simply re-wire both older safelights with a 3 wire cord and plug, properly grounded to the metal safelight housing. Make sure the hot and neutral are wired properly to the plug.
Regarding "another safety question": it's always safer to unplug a device rather than turn it off by an in-line switch. If the switch is incorrctly wired or a non polarized plug Is used, you could very likely have a live hot wire while the switch is off.
Eric Woodbury
7-Apr-2018, 18:42
You don't want a 3-wire with a metal housing. It's like a toaster. Toasters are 2-wire with a metal exterior. If you ground the exterior of a toaster, then it provides an easy ground with which to be shocked should you stick a knife in there. Same here. Don't encourage the current to flow.
As I understand the code explained to me by my electrician neighbor, GFCIs do not need the 3rd wired grounded 'in a remodel'. They still provide protection should an imbalance of current appear between the two wires. BTW, this is a handy way to install 3 prong plugs in an old house (such as mine).
Also, GFCIs at the junction box are great for a single load line, but for a darkroom, it could be a nightmare. If the GFCI is tripped, you'll have no idea where it is without a bunch of trail and error. And I don't know about your darkroom, but I use 3 breakers. One for HVAC and two miscellaneous. It's not that I need that much juice all the time, but I like the division of circuits and lots of outlets.
Good luck and keep one hand in your pocket.
You don't want a 3-wire with a metal housing. It's like a toaster. Toasters are 2-wire with a metal exterior. If you ground the exterior of a toaster, then it provides an easy ground with which to be shocked should you stick a knife in there. Same here. Don't encourage the current to flow.
Yes you're right, I take a look at my toaster. Also it is an non polarized plug as the original safelight plug is. Can I put polarized plug onto? What I found for an easy relamping is this cord lamp https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.clear-lamp-cord---6-feet.1000113207.html
Also, GFCIs at the junction box are great for a single load line, but for a darkroom, it could be a nightmare. If the GFCI is tripped, you'll have no idea where it is without a bunch of trail and error. And I don't know about your darkroom, but I use 3 breakers. One for HVAC and two miscellaneous. It's not that I need that much juice all the time, but I like the division of circuits and lots of outlets.
3 circuits also in the darkroom. 2 circuits was derivated from other purpose circuits (central vacuum and another one from the workshop). A GFCI outlet was installed when the circuit enter in the darkroom and this is supposed to give the same protection for the others outlets in the line.
But why Kodak change from 2 prongs to 3 prongs for exactly the same safelights? Model C vs D and for the Model B.
3 circuits also in the darkroom. 2 circuits was derivated from other purpose circuits (central vacuum and another one from the workshop). A GFCI outlet was installed when the circuit enter in the darkroom and this is supposed to give the same protection for the others outlets in the line.
Hopefully your enlarger is not on the same circuit as the central vac and the workshop. Could be an issue if a high draw motor is turned on while enlarging. Not a big issue; just that the initial current draw might affect your exposure.
Leszek Vogt
8-Apr-2018, 15:19
Unless you insisting on GFCI, you could hack a lamp (the one you clap your hands to) and hook up your safety light/s....and without touching any strings.
Those GFCI thingys are not as great as I expected. I had a refridge hooked up to it (in garage) and it turned out to be too sensitive and it would shut off the refridge. It took a pro to trouble shoot this madness. Just sharing....
Les
Hopefully your enlarger is not on the same circuit as the central vac and the workshop. Could be an issue if a high draw motor is turned on while enlarging. Not a big issue; just that the initial current draw might affect your exposure.
Enlargers are on the workshop circuit, an independant 20A circuit with an external line of outlets on the workshop wall that was extended into the darkroom. When I'm in the darkroom, I'm not using tools in the workshop and not using the central Vac either! Central Vac line control the exaust fan, safelights, some Gralab timers, etc. Original room outlets circuit is the same for 2-3 others rooms in the basement so I don't really plug anything into, except maybe 1 or 2 safelights. Maybe you found that I have too many safelights... I hate changing filters so I prefer having 0C, #2, #GBX-2, #10 installed and using the one needed. For my lumens project, I have a lot of old papers requesting differents filters and as I don't need the enlargers, safelights are not connected via the enlargers' timers.
Unless you insisting on GFCI, you could hack a lamp (the one you clap your hands to) and hook up your safety light/s....and without touching any strings.
Those GFCI thingys are not as great as I expected. I had a refridge hooked up to it (in garage) and it turned out to be too sensitive and it would shut off the refridge. It took a pro to trouble shoot this madness. Just sharing....
Les
I suspect the current draw from the fridge compressor turning on might have "fooled" the gfci. And, like any device, some may be better than others.
Unless you insisting on GFCI, you could hack a lamp (the one you clap your hands to) and hook up your safety light/s....and without touching any strings.
Those GFCI thingys are not as great as I expected. I had a refridge hooked up to it (in garage) and it turned out to be too sensitive and it would shut off the refridge. It took a pro to trouble shoot this madness. Just sharing....
Les
In new construction, all receptacles in a garage must be on a GFCI circuit EXCEPT a dedicated outlet for a major appliance such as a freezer or refrigerator.
Leszek Vogt
10-Apr-2018, 13:36
Rick, at the time I was getting the garage build, the GFCI requirement only specified the bedrooms (and that was v. fresh requirement). My refridge was doing well, being hooked up to GFCI outlet for many years (10?) and something went ker-plunk
and it stopped. I was able to hook it up to a conventional outlet and all is good.
Les
RogerSmith
16-Apr-2018, 02:46
Before installing GFCI, what you should look is if the housing of the safelights is metal or plastic. Since it is metal housing, I think there is no need for 3-wire. I think this was well explained by other members. Also about the toaster.
Also, I am not sure if rewiring a house is necessary (http://www.hi-liteelectricinc.ca/services/aluminum-wiring/) here. But if you are confident about it, then choose a licensed electrician for the rewiring, as it can be huge.
Once you fix it, have a regular check. And also if it ever trip try not to just reset the GFCI, but to find the problem, as there might be any unintended path to the ground.
Ginette
24-Apr-2018, 17:28
Before installing GFCI, what you should look is if the housing of the safelights is metal or plastic. Since it is metal housing, I think there is no need for 3-wire. I think this was well explained by other members. Also about the toaster.
Also, I am not sure if rewiring a house is necessary (http://www.hi-liteelectricinc.ca/services/aluminum-wiring/) here. But if you are confident about it, then choose a licensed electrician for the rewiring, as it can be huge.
Once you fix it, have a regular check. And also if it ever trip try not to just reset the GFCI, but to find the problem, as there might be any unintended path to the ground.
GFCI circuits are already installed in the darkroom and no need for any rewiring the house!
It is 5 Kodak Model C metal safelights, original 2 wires, no ground and non polarized plug. All cords are pretty stiff and wish to change them.
My questions was, do I still have the GFCI protection from a no ground plug and if it is better to rewire in 3 wires plug. Answer look yes and that 2 wires cord are ok.
I start changing the old cords for new cords with polarized plug. Already mounted standard lamp cords from Home Depot.
I just need to respect the polarized plug, connecting correctly NEUTRAL, wider blade, ribbed wire on the silver screw.
Thanks all for your contribution.
Do I need a 3 prongs plug to have the protection from the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Outlet?No.
The GFCI outlet compares the amount of current flowing in the two wires.
If those values differ it decides a fault exists and opens the circuit.
- Leigh
Chuck Pere
25-Apr-2018, 08:17
I still wonder why Kodak changed to 3 wire. It would seem that with a metal body safelight a 3 wire plug with ground connected to the body would be better. If something happened within the light to short the hot wire to the metal body the CB would trip. With an ungrounded connection the body would be hot and you could get shocked if you touched it. Maybe a GFCI is sensitive enough to trip with an ungrounded body and the hot wire shorted to the body. Enough leakage through the light mounting system.
I still wonder why Kodak changed to 3 wire. It would seem that with a metal body safelight a 3 wire plug with ground connected to the body would be better. If something happened within the light to short the hot wire to the metal body the CB would trip. With an ungrounded connection the body would be hot and you could get shocked if you touched it. Maybe a GFCI is sensitive enough to trip with an ungrounded body and the hot wire shorted to the body. Enough leakage through the light mounting system.
They may have gone from a metal socket to a plastic socket.
Eric Woodbury
25-Apr-2018, 10:18
A wild guess is: before GFIs and in an effort to improve electrical safety in industrial environments, some cities wanted everything grounded with the third wire. Duplex outlets in houses were changed to ground, 3-wire types. The house I grew up in was built in 1960 and it only had 2-wire outlets. When 3-wire plugs came along, we had to use "cheaters" everywhere. There's a false sense of security.
E
Maybe a GFCI is sensitive enough to trip with an ungrounded body and the hot wire shorted to the body.
A GFCI is worried about current through a HUMAN body, not a product body.
As I said earlier, the GFCI just compares the amount of current flowing through the two service lines.
If those are not equal, it detects a fault and opens the circuit.
It does not care why the two are unequal, only about the fact that they are unequal.
- Leigh
faberryman
25-Apr-2018, 10:36
I think everybody is overthinking a safelight.
Louie Powell
25-Apr-2018, 12:42
Nothing is guaranteed to be absolutely safe. Instead, safety is a relative matter - some solutions are safer than others.
To protect their constituents, governments often enact safety standards to elevate the overall level of safety, and to reduce the number of events in which people can be harmed.
One such standard is the requirement for GFCIs. Depending on the jurisdiction, GFCIs are typically required in residential bathrooms, kitchens, garages, and outdoor receptacle circuits - basically anywhere a person can simultaneously come in contact with the electrical circuit and water. The objective is to provide a means to detect and quickly trip the circuit if a person inadvertently completes the circuit. The original poster asked about GFCIs in a darkroom - darkrooms are not addressed in the standards where I live, but I chose to have a GFCI on the receptacles on the wet side of my darkroom (not on the dry side). And in my darkroom, the safelights are controlled by a wall-mounted switch on the dry side.
Another safety requirement calls for bringing a ground wire to each receptacle, and using a three-prong plug on appliances. The objective of this is to enhance safety by preventing the metal casing of an appliance from inadvertently being energized if the hot wire touches the case. An alternative way to address the same problem is by 'double insulation' - essentially, using a non-conducting plastic casing on the appliance. The decision to design products with double insulation is a combination of government-driven product safety standards, and individual decisions by manufacturers with guidance from their lawyers and insurance underwriters.
Ultimately, each of us is responsible for our own safety, and for the safety of others in our households. Its easy to dismiss steps to improve safety as excessive and expensive. But if shortcuts are taken, and if someone is injured or killed, that expensive will seem trivial. So it comes down to personal choice, and how much risk are you willing to accept.
Jim Jones
26-Apr-2018, 07:36
Louie is right. Despite the fairly foolproof grounded electrical appliances and GFCIs, someone who works hard at being a fool can circumvent their protection. On the other hand, during a career of working with energized electrical and electronics equipment, I don't remember EVER being shocked as long as I knew what I was dong and was careful. On the other hand, carelessness often zapped me. The best safety device is the human brain.
Eric Woodbury
26-Apr-2018, 10:50
Wet locations, at least where I live, includes outlets within four feet of an exterior door. This prevents unprotected extension cord use outside.
Be safe.
WBYonder
16-Aug-2023, 10:37
I looked in past threads, but could not find the answer to my question, so I’m replying on this thread as it most closely relates.
I have set up my darkroom, and one of the outlets in there, closest to the enlarger/work area, and slightly above waist-level height, is the first in its circuit, so it is a GFCI outlet protecting the rest of the outlets downstream. My issue is it has an indicator light which is always on. Fairly faint, but is very noticeable when all other lights are out. Putting electrical tape over it does not extinguish it. I have a couple of options to deal with it, such as installing a GFCI breaker (least favorite option), putting some other cover over it (probably over most/all of the outlet as it also shines through the receptacle holes) or replacing it with a GFCI outlet that does not have an indicator light. This would be my preferred option, but I can’t seem to find one without an indicator light. I’d be interested to hear if anyone has sourced one, or if there is another solution that is as easy as my last 2 options, one of which will likely be implemented. I plan to keep the GFCI in place and the entire circuit protected.
ic-racer
16-Aug-2023, 11:59
or if there is another solution that is as easy
How about testing the light with tape over it. Does it really fog your materials?
WBYonder
16-Aug-2023, 12:38
How about testing the light with tape over it. Does it really fog your materials?
Haven’t tested it, and it may not be significant enough to cause fogging, but if I eliminate it easily then I know there is no effect.
Alan Klein
16-Aug-2023, 12:58
The outlets in my bathrooms and garage have GFCI's. If I recall right, there were GFCI type circuit breakers in all the power panels in newer NYC schools.
Alan Klein
16-Aug-2023, 13:08
I always have the Building Dept where I live inspect new electrical work installed by a licensed electrician. It costs an extra $70 or so to file and inspect the work. Well worth it to make sure the electrician doesn't cut corners which has happened. I had one electrician use Home Depot receptacles whose type aren't allowed any more, for years. He had to replace them with an approved type. Why Home Depot is selling unapproved electrical receptacles is beyond me. Something to think about if you do your own work. You might want to buy from an electrical distributor who's up on the local codes. Also, when I eventually sell the house, I'll have Bldg Dept signoffs to prevent holdups in selling the house as violations start popping up when a home inspector goes through the house for the potential buyer.
I looked in past threads, but could not find the answer to my question, so I’m replying on this thread as it most closely relates.
I have set up my darkroom, and one of the outlets in there, closest to the enlarger/work area, and slightly above waist-level height, is the first in its circuit, so it is a GFCI outlet protecting the rest of the outlets downstream. My issue is it has an indicator light which is always on. Fairly faint, but is very noticeable when all other lights are out. Putting electrical tape over it does not extinguish it. I have a couple of options to deal with it, such as installing a GFCI breaker (least favorite option), putting some other cover over it (probably over most/all of the outlet as it also shines through the receptacle holes) or replacing it with a GFCI outlet that does not have an indicator light. This would be my preferred option, but I can’t seem to find one without an indicator light. I’d be interested to hear if anyone has sourced one, or if there is another solution that is as easy as my last 2 options, one of which will likely be implemented. I plan to keep the GFCI in place and the entire circuit protected.
I have GFCIs in my home that only have a single LED that only shines when the GFCI trips. I also have one (used as a power cord) with no LED. Most were purchased in 2008 but at least one a lot later than 2008. That said, I suspect a dab of black silicone or similar on the offending LED would work.
BTW, since you mentioned it, GFCIs can be wired so that downstream outlets are or are not protected. Typically wired so they are, but doesn't hurt to test if you are not the original installer.
Larry Gebhardt
16-Aug-2023, 13:22
Gaffers tape works well to cover that sort of LED. Sometime you need a large piece since the light glows through the plastic housing of the device. But even a faint glow doesn't seem to fog film if it's a few feet away.
WBYonder
16-Aug-2023, 13:29
I have GFCIs in my home that only have a single LED that only shines when the GFCI trips. I also have one (used as a power cord) with no LED. Most were purchased in 2008 but at least one a lot later than 2008. That said, I suspect a dab of black silicone or similar on the offending LED would work.
BTW, since you mentioned it, GFCIs can be wired so that downstream outlets are or are not protected. Typically wired so they are, but doesn't hurt to test if you are not the original installer.
Thanks, I suspect older GFCIs might not have an indicator light, but I think most, if not all, newer ones do.
I wired the shop the darkroom is in (yes, permitted and inspected. In WA a homeowner can do this without an electricians license) so I know the downstream receptacles are protected.
WBYonder
16-Aug-2023, 13:31
Gaffers tape works well to cover that sort of LED. Sometime you need a large piece since the light glows through the plastic housing of the device. But even a faint glow doesn't seem to fog film if it's a few feet away.
Thanks, I suspect this is what i will end up doing. You are probably correct that the effect is minimal.
WBYonder
16-Aug-2023, 15:16
Well, I figured the solution that works for me and kills 2 birds with one stone. In my box of electrical stuff, I found an electrical extender that plugs in to both outlets in the GFCI, covers the entire plate and gives me 4 more outlets, like the picture I posted. Thanks again for the replies!
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