Look for Tripod + head for Sinar F2

[willCut]

Hello,

Just owner of a Sinar F2, and beginner in large format, I am looking for a tripod.
The Sinar has a 90mm installed. On the rail, I have the 411.21 clamp, which accepts 1/4 "threads, and has a base of 75 mm. Between the base of the clamp and the center of the ground glass I have 25cm.
The set is about 4 Kg (9lb). I also have a 6x9 back to put in place the ground glass, which should not change the weight.

As I begin, I want to discover what I like to achieve as photos with this camera: cityscapes and countryside / mountains, architecture and studio a bit (with a 250 mm?).

I am 1,73m (5'6) tall, so it can give some idea of the tripod size I need.

So I'm looking for a tripod, maybe light enough to bring it everywhere, by car or day hike (and more if affinity with it) I have a 50L backpack that I usually use for my hikes in which I could put the Sinar and hang the tripod outside (I already pass skis or snowshoes).

My max budget is about 400 $, tripod + head + plate.

I read a lot on the forums.

What is often recommended as a head is the Sinar PanTilt. But it's difficult to find used, and it's not cheap.
On the other hand, I often read that it is not advisable to use ball head with large formats, mostly with monorails. What do you think ?
Do I need a big ball head or pan-tilt 2-3 axes, or is a leveling head enough?
I think a quick fastening plate is essential. What do you think ?
What weight should support the tripod, and the head? I think that a minimum of 8 Kg (18lb), or 10Kg (22lb), would be a minimum, to support the room + the manipulations + the insertion of films / change of back + misalignment of the room in some views. What do you think ?




In my budget, in a new tripod (sometimes with head), I have:

Benro TravelAngel or Adventure http://www.benrousa.com/products/photo-tripods/?v6=5&v2=2&v5=2
Sirui series ET + E20 head or series N or T http://www.sirui.eu/en/products/tripods/
Berlebach Reporter series 2 or 8 (depending on the weight supported), and module 0/1/5/6, the others being too small for the base of the Sinar
Manfrotto 055, but they seem limited to 8Kg (18lb) max load
Others I did not think about




Can I be able to have Carbon instead of Alu for this budget (Benro and Sirui), which seems better following forums. Sirui looks better than Benro in general. The Berlebach do not seem so heavy, not more than Alu, but a bit more than Carbon. But they seem sturdy. 2.5 Kg (4.4lb) does not seem so huge. And the folded length also seems good on backpack.

I saw for less than 300$ a used Feisol CT3441T + Giottos mh1300-621: https://bccamera.com/giottos-mh1300-621-socket-ball-head-with-quick-release-plate/ What do you think? Is the head enough for the Sinar? Would this be a good opportunity?

Thank you

[David Schaller]

Although it’s possible in theory, most of us would not do much backpacking with the F2. As far as your first question, I would recommend an aluminum tripod and a heavy head. I use a Manfrotto 3410 tripod and 410 geared head for my F2. For hiking, I use a field camera and carbon fiber tripod.

[Jeff Keller]

It sounds like you will be keeping your camera level. You should consider getting a used Gitzo carbon fiber tripod and mount a quick release panning clamp directly to the tripod. If you find it too time consuming to adjust the legs, you could get a leveling head.

Finding a used carbon fiber Gitzo tripod for $400 should be possible although lately prices seem to be running high.

[Alan Gales]

If you find a used Berlebach tripod with the leveling ball, you may not need a head. It all depends upon how much you plan on tilting the monorail up or down. I used one with a Tachihara this way until I later found a used Ries at a good price. I've found Berlebach tripods quite reasonably priced on the used market. They are really nice tripods if you like wood.

Personally, I much prefer pan/tilt heads for large format. Some of us hate ball heads for large format and some of us love them. Everyone has advice but that's something that you really have to find out for yourself.

[Luis-F-S]

Sinar pan/tilt head and a series 5 Gitzo tripod is what I use. You can find the Sinar head used if you look and are patient! Patience is a virtue and a necessity.

[Mark Sampson]

If you want to backpack or hike with a Sinar F2, consider replacing the F2 rail clamp with one from a Sinar Norma; the Norma clamp is more compact and makes a surprising difference in packability.

[willCut]

If you find a used Berlebach tripod with the leveling ball, you may not need a head. It all depends upon how much you plan on tilting the monorail up or down. I used one with a Tachihara this way until I later found a used Ries at a good price. I've found Berlebach tripods quite reasonably priced on the used market. They are really nice tripods if you like wood.

Personally, I much prefer pan/tilt heads for large format. Some of us hate ball heads for large format and some of us love them. Everyone has advice but that's something that you really have to find out for yourself.
Yes, Berlebach with leveling head is one of my top list. I don't know if the 8 series (863) is enough with only 22lbs of max load. Else, the 2 series (262) supports more load around 33 lbs. I will buy it new, as used is rare.
Else, if I don't take the leveling head, do you have some advice to add pan/tilt head for berlebach?

[willCut]

If you want to backpack or hike with a Sinar F2, consider replacing the F2 rail clamp with one from a Sinar Norma; the Norma clamp is more compact and makes a surprising difference in packability.

Thanks for the idea. I will think about.

[willCut]

Sinar pan/tilt head and a series 5 Gitzo tripod is what I use. You can find the Sinar head used if you look and are patient! Patience is a virtue and a necessity.

I'm agree with you about patience, but my I'm eager to learn to use my Sinar :-)

[willCut]

It sounds like you will be keeping your camera level. You should consider getting a used Gitzo carbon fiber tripod and mount a quick release panning clamp directly to the tripod. If you find it too time consuming to adjust the legs, you could get a leveling head.
This is the same kind advice as Alan Gales, and It convinces me about tripod (maybe Berlebach) with leveling head.

[willCut]

The guy, who sold me the Sinar, used it on a TiltAll Original. Pan/tilt head is built-in, and it supports 44 lbs. It not as heavy as many alu tripod. It has same dimension as Berlebach.
And I read on forum that some users of large format own (or have owned) this tripod. And it fits my budget !
What do you think about?

[DG 3313]

Although it’s possible in theory, most of us would not do much backpacking with the F2. As far as your first question, I would recommend an aluminum tripod and a heavy head. I use a Manfrotto 3410 tripod and 410 geared head for my F2. For hiking, I use a field camera and carbon fiber tripod.

+1, Bogen 3021 legs and a 3047 head under my F2 when I'm close to the car or at home. I prefer my Toyo 45a on the Gitzo 1228 when I'm out and about.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've used Sinars of various types in the field for a long time. Imo, the best head for a Sinar is the Sinar pan/tilt head. It is very strong, compact, light and easy to use. It's worth hunting one down. For legs, unless you're shooting a lot of long lenses, a used series 3 aluminum Gitzo is excellent. I usually take mine for use with 4x5 instead of my series V.

[Mark Sampson]

I have an original (Marchioni) Tiltall. It will hold my 4x5 Zone VI, barely. My 4x5 Sinar Norma, no way. Tiltalls are fine tripods but best suited for 35mm (there's a reason Leica bought the design) and 120 format cameras. Find the largest Manfrotto setup you can tolerate- the 3021/3047 combo would be the smallest to consider.

[Bernice Loui]

4x5 Sinar F is not very heavy if smaller lenses are used. Tiltall is border line OK, but there are better choices.

Keep in mind it is not the weight a given tripod can support, it has more to do with stability, durability and vibration control than just weight capacity.

One tripod brand often not considered is Davis & Stanford. Used their rectangular leg version for decades with a Sinar Pan-Tilt head with a 4x5 & 5x7 Sinar C. These can be had at very modest cost, easy to used due to the single thumb screw used to adjust each leg. They are very durable aluminum construction and very stable. Only negative is minimum height is just over two feet.

Sinar Pan-Tilt head is almost a must for a Sinar due to it's stability and overall durability.

Added a big Gitzo with the Davis & Stanford tripod due to getting a really good deal on it. Think this is a big Gitzo Studex with the geared center column. Works OK, but heavy and very stable. Does go very low and the tripod head can be put on the bottom side of the center column allowing camera positing to very near ground level. Too heavy, and travel with the aluminum legs was not kind to them. The twist locks can get stuck causing user grief. It is now mostly parked.

Currently using a Modified Dutch Hill fiberglass leg Surveyor's tripod modified with a Bolex Cinema "bowl" and Sinar Pan-Tilt head. This set up is not too heavy, very stable, not vibration prone and the fiberglass lens are simply tough-durable and do not dent-scratch like aluminum legs. Keep in mind if a tripod is used outdoors, they will get a LOT of abuse, wear and related. One good feature about these Surveyor's tripods, they are absolutely built and designed to be used outdoors in dirt, mud and more then continue to function in the worst of environmental conditions.

The Bolex Cinema bowl allows easy leveling of the Sinar Pan-Tilt head even when the legs are not set up completely level. Leveling the tripod is important due to the need to pan the camera and help to keep the image being made level.


Bernice

[Alan Gales]

Yes, Berlebach with leveling head is one of my top list. I don't know if the 8 series (863) is enough with only 22lbs of max load. Else, the 2 series (262) supports more load around 33 lbs. I will buy it new, as used is rare.
Else, if I don't take the leveling head, do you have some advice to add pan/tilt head for berlebach?

For large format I've only used the Berlebach with leveling ball and then 2 Ries tripods, (J100 and A100) both with Ries double tilt heads. I used to own a Sinar P 4x5 monorail and used it on the A100 since I already owned that tripod. It did fine but I had to really crank down the rail clamp to the Ries head or it would spin. Everyone recommends the Sinar head for Sinar cameras though. They have a pin that keeps the rail clamp from spinning.

As others have said, forget the Tiltall. I've owned one and liked it but I agree that it would be borderline with a Sinar F.

[Joshua Dunn]

As a Sinar user I completely agree that you should try and get a Sinar head. That said I understand they can be hard to find and are pricey for a used tripod head. Whatever tripod/head combination you end up with do not underestimate the importance of a good tripod/head to your process. Over the years I have bought dozens of tripods and heads. Between film and digital I use three consistently. If I had just bought the right three in the first place I would have had a lot more money in my pocket.

There is one more thing to consider. While I would rather see you with a Sinar head because you only need to move the tripod head to move on one axis (because the camera can rotate on the monorail for the second axis) look at video heads. They can handle a lot of weight, move fluidly on one axis and good ones lock down like a vise.

Hope this helps.

-Joshua

[willCut]

Finally, I've just bought a Sinar Pan tilt head.
Now, I read again all your advices for the tripod.
First, once my head will be there, I will go to a local shop to try various tripods to be sure about the load, the stability, the height.
Gitzo or Ries are best of carbon and wood. But There are definitely out of my budget, even used.

[Bernice Loui]

Modified Dutch Hill tripod legs, Bolex Cinema bowl, Sinar Pan Tilt head and 5x7 Sinar Norma.
176706

176707

-phone image.
Bernice

[willCut]

Modified Dutch Hill tripod legs, Bolex Cinema bowl, Sinar Pan Tilt head and 5x7 Sinar Norma.

-phone image.
Bernice
It looks like the legs used for theodolite. I have already read someone modified one to put a camera on it.

[Bernice Loui]

There are a number of "photographic" tripods with legs made this way including film and video tripods made by Sachtler and many others. These three or four section tripod leg design tends to be more stable, more difficult to jam-get stuck and overall far more rugged and tough in difficult terrain than the single telescopic leg design. Lock down at the set length is often extremely positive with absolutely zero slippage. Some of the surveyor's tripod legs have a solid center section that extends with two outer sections making them seriously stable, tough and really strong.

IMO, aluminum is not a good tripod leg material choice. Materials such as wood, fiberglass and carbon based composites (too expensive IMO) are superior to aluminum. Search on flea-bay and other auction sites will reveal non-photographic tripod legs of very high quality can be had for well under $200, typically in the $100 range. IMO, brands like Gitzo, Manfrotto-Bogen, and others are over priced for what they offer.


Bernice


It looks like the legs used for theodolite. I have already read someone modified one to put a camera on it.

[Drew Wiley]

One has to be careful these days modifying a survey tripod. The Chinese have done an excellent job of making look-alike clones of domestic surveyor tripods, and they're showing up all over the place. If the price is too good to be true, it is. The legs slip even after you think they're locked down, the locks themselves fall apart quickly, and the hardware rusts. New - think $200, not in the $50 to $75 range. Besides domestic mfg, make sure it has an ample flat
platform (not dome-style), then replace the 5/8-11 turnbolt with a captured 3/8-16 one (ala Ries; but a real Ries is preferable).

[Peter De Smidt]

Surveyor-style tripods are great out in the field. I have one, too. Once you sink the big spiked feet into the ground, they are very secure. On the other hand, they are bulky, usually heavy, tend not to go very high, and using them on surfaces that you don't want to damage is a bit of a pain. I use my lowly aluminum Gitzos much more lately, as I been mainly shooting architecture and in the studio.

[Alan Gales]

Finally, I've just bought a Sinar Pan tilt head.
Now, I read again all your advices for the tripod.
First, once my head will be there, I will go to a local shop to try various tripods to be sure about the load, the stability, the height.
Gitzo or Ries are best of carbon and wood. But There are definitely out of my budget, even used.

I paid $350.00 for my Ries J100 including Ries double tilt head. It was an older model but in very good shape. I just about stole my A100 being the only bidder. It almost looked new. I forget the price now but the Seller sent me a note saying that he hoped I understood the deal I got. Both were purchased off Ebay.

To get deals you do have to be patient though. It can take months of watching.

[willCut]

From Canada unfortunately it's not so easy to find a Ries; and shipping from US is expensive.
I've found these used tripods for less than 300USD : Feisol CT3441T, Manfrotto 190CXPRO4, Gitzo 1349 Mk2. What do you think about? The Manfrotto supports the fewer load.
It's a bit more expensive than a new Berlebach, my favorite :-) but in carbon, lighter

[Bernice Loui]

Carbon fiber legs with too many telescopic sections. These might be OK for small film cameras, Digital SLR, Mirrorless. some medium format cameras and similar. They will lack stability due to the number of telescopic sections in their legs. While carbon fiber tripods are the mod-a-go-go current Foto fashion and the are light weight, they do not have the stability and weight needed to keep a view camera stable.

Keep in mind exposures on a view camera (4x5 and up) will tend to be far longer than the typical digital or smaller format film camera. Exposures often fall into the 1/30 second range or much longer. This is one of the many reasons why a flimsy light weight tripod will not do and will cause an enormous amount of grief. At the beginning of the view camera learning curve, it is difficult enough to load film, set up the camera, focus, figure out exposure, stop down the lens, close the shutter, install the film holder and more. Then there is post camera processing and print making.

Consider the travel time, resources involved with making a trip and all involved just to expose a single sheet of film... all to be ruined by a flimsy carbon fiber tripod.

Do seriously consider staying with the tripod legs recommended by others as there is essentially many decades of view camera experience behind those words.



Bernice




From Canada unfortunately it's not so easy to find a Ries; and shipping from US is expensive.
I've found these used tripods for less than 300USD : Feisol CT3441T, Manfrotto 190CXPRO4, Gitzo 1349 Mk2. What do you think about? The Manfrotto supports the fewer load.
It's a bit more expensive than a new Berlebach, my favorite :-) but in carbon, lighter

[Bernice Loui]

If there is one thing that can seriously ruin a Foto day, a crappy, flimsy usable or stuck tripod.
Over the decades, this has become a zero tolerance issue.

In comparison, a good stable, rigid, precise movements and legs that lock and stay put with minimal effort is a joy of a tripod to use. This simply contributes much to the joy of view camera image making.

Many view camera folks strive for low weight, but might not consider weight-mass can make all the difference in camera stability and overall image quality....with significantly reduced user grief and frustration with resources involved completely wasted.


Bernice

[willCut]

Do seriously consider staying with the tripod legs recommended by others as there is essentially many decades of view camera experience behind those words.
Bernice

I think I will follow your advice.
If I can summarize what I've read on this forum and others, Manfrotto 055 series Carbon and Berlebachs are the ones that come often. Gitzos are definitely out of budget.
In my budget, Berlebachs are the first.
I have to go to a shop to be sure of the height I need, without central column. I never really used a tripod and I don't know what is the best height to use with a ground glass.
For Berlebach, I've seen 3 models (I don't need any head special I think, because I will fix the pan tilt Sinar directly on it):
Report 813 (https://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=272&sprache=english), 3 sections with good folded and deployed dimensions
Report 212 (https://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=268&sprache=english#), 2 sections, taller folded and shorter deployed than 813
Report 212 Astronomy (https://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=174&sprache=english), 2 sections, a bit heavier but sturdier than standard Report 212. Could be a good compromise.

[Peter De Smidt]

If you're out in the field, or doing architecture, it's better to have a taller tripod than just what will put the ground glass at face level on level ground, as you may not always be on level ground. I recently was doing an architectural photo. To get the composition I wanted, I had to be on the side of a hill. I could've really benefited from having a taller tripod.

[mathieu Bauwens]

You have to talk with Ari on this forum who the canadian seller of FLM tripod.

He can answer a lot of your questions and has good advice on his material.

[willCut]

I've just received my Sinar Pan/tilt head. The base has a diameter of 75mm (around 3"). But on this base there is a smaller piece of diameter 55mm (around 2") receiving the screw to be fixed on the tripod (see picture)

177438

I've tried the Sinar head on a Manfrotto 055. The smaller diameter fits on the tripod plate, but the remains part of the base goes beyond the tripod plate.

Do you know if that can be an issue to use a tripod with a smaller plate (and it seems 55mm or 60mm is a kind of standard), do I must need a plate of diameter at least 75mm to install the Sinar head?

Thanks.

[Bernice Loui]

Manfrotto 055 might sort of work.

Reason why the Sinar Pan-tilt has a large diameter base has much to do with the kind and size of tripod it is intended to be used with. It is much about camera stability and proper camera support. Going back to the tripod legs previously discussed, they have good sized bases to aid in stability trading off light weight.

Not going to have it both ways, lightweight and stability. These two requirements are conflicting. Accept the fact a view camera benefits greatly from a tripod with weight for stability rather than trying to impose the belief lower weight is OK.

Alternatively, on can use a lightweight tripod, the add a weight bag (local rocks or etc) to the center column as part of the set up.



Bernice

[willCut]

Finally, after many hours of research, reading, thinking, talking with myself and my banker (:-) ), I arrive to the last list of choices.
I've discarded Manfrotto. This is not really what I want.
Gitzo and Ries are already discarded for the price.

It remains:

the Berlebach 312 (Berlebach 84 would have been ideal, but too expensive, despite its weight I would have taken it)
a used Feisol Elite CT 3372, an only 3 sections carbon fiber tripod, some says it's enough sturdy
an heavy wooden (or aluminium) surveyor tripod, cheaper than other. I've found here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/surveyor-tripod-conversion/) how to convert one for a use with camera. I've seen some on thebay, around , and I will try to found one locally.

It will be a bit difficult to day hiking with the surveyor, but not impossible.

Have you some last advices?

Guillaume