When did selenium toning become popular?

[Oren Grad]

The thread title is my question. We have a separate thread here...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106341-Selenium-and-Tellurium-Toning

...that mentions a 1910 German patent, so evidently knowledge of it goes very far back. But does anyone have a sense of when selenium started to be widely adopted in practice, and when it started to be promoted as more or less a standard of good practice for silver printing?

[Sal Santamaura]

I've no data to support this, but my sense is that it became expected practice in the 1970s.

[Michael R]

Anecdotally I think much of its popularity (and the widespread adoption of it as a de facto standard) has to do with Ansel.

[Oren Grad]

I know it was being written about fairly widely in the 1970s, which is when I got started. Ansel is certainly a plausible candidate as a key influence. The only one of his technical books in my collection is the 1976 edition of Camera and Lens, so I don't have any sense of when he started to write about it and whether he dropped any hints as to where he picked up the bug.

[LabRat]

Before the turn of the century, most of the toning was with gold or sulfide (or both) if you check the old books... I don't have access to my library right now, but selenium was a last century process (probably from the beginning)...

Ansco's version was called "Flemish Toner" and I think I have seen ads for it from the 20's...

Using it as a protective solution I think was postwar, but it sure got a boost from Ansel...

Steve K

[barnacle]

Speculating here: was the presence of significant amounts of atmospheric sulphur (and the various oxides thereof) from burning coal for everything in the late 19th century and early 20th significant in damaging untoned prints? Or did people just prefer the colour of the toned print? My 1905 reference doesn't (from memory) make any comment, just provides recipes. Apropos of which - it lists a platinum process that starts with half a pound of platinum metal...

Neil

[Greg]

"Selenium toning was patented in 1910" per Tim Rudman's Toning Book

[John Layton]

Over rated IMHO. I will only tone if this helps me to meet my goals for a given image - and will never ascribe to this to simply appease the sensibilities of uninformed collectors! (boy, did that feel great!)

[Oren Grad]

Thanks to all for their thoughts so far. We've had plenty of discussion in other threads about what selenium toning does or doesn't do for prints and whether it's a good idea. Here I'm especially interested in sorting out the history.

Another anecdotal observation: my impression is that Edward Weston didn't tone, and even Brett, a generation further on, mostly preferred not to. I'd speculate, with emphasis on speculate, that the practice wasn't so well established in Edward's time, while Brett was a man of strong opinions who would have been happy to thumb his nose at the conventional wisdom whatever it said. But can we come up with more concrete evidence on the evolution of practice?

[Mark Sampson]

I'd look at Adams' 1935 book "Making A Photograph"; it was his first technical manual. Following that, early editions of "The Print" from the 1950s. Certainly two influential publications.
I don't remember where or when I learned to use KRST. But when I started making what we now call 'fine prints', the word was to tone after two fixing baths, KRST 1:31 in a hypo-clearing agent solution. That would have been in the late '70s. Of course in those days warm-tone papers, sepia toning, and other similar processes were seen as hopelessly old-fashioned, remnants of pictorialism and camera clubs.

[faberryman]

Fred Picker certainly popularized selenium toning from the 1970s onward.

[HT Finley]

I started in the early 70's because of the AA books. I used a very weak solution, not to tone per se, but just to knock off the ugly pea-green tint. Back then I was using Ilfobrom paper, which they discontinued for no good reason.

[Mark Sampson]

The last two posts suggest that selenium toning became a 'thing' when the idea of 'archival processing for permanence' was spreading through the photo world. I suppose that would have been from the late '60s onward(?). By the time I was learning the craft, in the late '70s, it was accepted wisdom. Of course there was a decline in b/w paper quality in the late '70s, early '80s, blamed mostly on the Hunt brothers' attempts to corner the market in silver. (Which did cause silver prices to rise.) But the use of selenium toner did give a deeper black, even on those not-so-good papers. Luckily for us, the manufacturers eventually decided that there was a market for good-quality paper!

[Keith Pitman]

I have a copy of Lootens with a last copyright date of 1967 that does not mention selenium toning. It does mention Kodak Gold Protective Solution GP-1

[Jim Jones]

The second printing of Adams' The Print (Published by the New York Graphic Society in 1950) describes his philosophy on toning on pages 24 and 25, and his use of KRST Toner on pages 78-80.

[Tin Can]

The last two posts suggest that selenium toning became a 'thing' when the idea of 'archival processing for permanence' was spreading through the photo world. I suppose that would have been from the late '60s onward(?). By the time I was learning the craft, in the late '70s, it was accepted wisdom. Of course there was a decline in b/w paper quality in the late '70s, early '80s, blamed mostly on the Hunt brothers' attempts to corner the market in silver. (Which did cause silver prices to rise.) But the use of selenium toner did give a deeper black, even on those not-so-good papers. Luckily for us, the manufacturers eventually decided that there was a market for good-quality paper!

Glad you put it that way. My 20 year old prints were not toned as I rejected the process for health. Must have worked, I'm still here. The prints are unchanged,

But so many experts now insist it's a necessity I am ready to give it a go. I'm too old to worry about health...

Oddly, Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner is easily available and highly recommended. But they sell no paper! It's also cheaper than the faux.

[Oren Grad]

The second printing of Adams' The Print (Published by the New York Graphic Society in 1950) describes his philosophy on toning on pages 24 and 25, and his use of KRST Toner on pages 78-80.

Very interesting. Thanks for digging that up.

[Drew Wiley]

Permanence of b&w images was a major concern in the 19th C due to horrible coal air pollution - a problem revived in countries today experiencing their own industrial revolutions. Hard to say just how much selenium improves the permanence of our modern silver-gelatin prints, but these don't achieve DMax without some kind of supplemental toners. I routinely keep on hand a tweak of GP-1, selenium, and sulphide brown, but employ them selectively and often in combination to adjust final image color and density. From the look of BW's later preferred medium, Oriental G, I think that his use of sel toner was routine - you just don't get that image color or final depth w/o it, even in amidol.

[Merg Ross]

As Mark mentioned, in the First Edition of Making A Photograph (1935), Ansel notes his preference for, "a cold blue-black tone yielding the richest values when treated with Eastman Selenium Toner or Nelson Gold Toner". It was what he taught his students at the CSFA in San Francisco, and most of the former students that I knew, followed their leader and made prints in varying shades of blue. I think that it is fair to assume that in this country, Ansel was responsible for the the popularity of Kodak Selenium Toner. It was often suggested as a necessary step in the "archival" process.

[Merg Ross]

Another anecdotal observation: my impression is that Edward Weston didn't tone, and even Brett, a generation further on, mostly preferred not to. I'd speculate, with emphasis on speculate, that the practice wasn't so well established in Edward's time, while Brett was a man of strong opinions who would have been happy to thumb his nose at the conventional wisdom whatever it said. But can we come up with more concrete evidence on the evolution of practice?

I believe that if Edward had toned, Brett would have also. It was actually Ansel who suggested to Brett that he try Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. He used it from the late 1960's until 1980, at which time he discontinued its use.

To Drew's point, Brett's later prints on Oriental papers were developed in either Ethol LPD or Oriental Paper Developer, after he abandoned Amidol due to health issues.

[Oren Grad]

Merg, thanks very much for weighing in on this and helping us fill out some key pieces of the story.

[Greg]

Fred Picker certainly popularized selenium toning from the 1970s onward.

Fred Picker's method:
After processing and washing the prints....
Prints go into a tray of Sodium Thiosulfate (1 lb. box in a half gallon of water) for 4 minutes.
Then into a toning tray (6 ounces of Kodak Rapid Selenium toner, 1-1/2 oz. of Permawash, in a half gallon of water). Prints tone nicely in 3-6 minutes.
Final wash of 1/2 hour or more.

[Drew Wiley]

Wow. Health issues. Rubber gloves certainly aren't a new invention. I still use thick ones when developing prints, but thin nitrile disposable gloves for sheet film dev. Was hoping Merg would chime in with some historical details, and he did.

[Mark Sampson]

A minor point, but it's worth noting that Fred Picker learned his craft studying with Ansel Adams. (And I learned a lot from Picker's writing.)
A less-minor point is that recent research has shown that selenium toning, as practiced by many of us, does not actually protect the print as we'd been told. Full toning, to a brick-red color, does.
IIRC the studies were done by Doug Nishimura at the Image Permanence Institute, which is affiliated with Rochester Institute of Technology. I also think the topic was discussed at length in a thread on this forum, but I can't be bothered to look it up now.
For myself, I decided to continue my previous practice of toning my prints in a weak KRST solution. Because I like the way it looks, and because it may help with image stability. I'll do the best I can and hope that my prints survive as I made them. And if anyone is interested in my prints in a hundred years, the conservators will know how they were made, so they can restore them if they want. (Lots of 'ifs' in that last sentence!)

[bob carnie]

As I understand selenium toning - the selenium couples to the silver metal left in the paper. this adds an extra layer of protection .

[Oren Grad]

IIRC the studies were done by Doug Nishimura at the Image Permanence Institute, which is affiliated with Rochester Institute of Technology. I also think the topic was discussed at length in a thread on this forum, but I can't be bothered to look it up now.

The studies reported by Doug Nishimura are not the only ones.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?13859-Paper-toning-and-permanence-experimental-data

Other discussion in these threads:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?13733-Toning-and-Permanence

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?106183-Selenium-toner

[Tin Can]

Oren seems to have a handle on this.

20 years ago I printed only FB, no toning. Now I do only RC.

I may skip toning a while longer. I'll age my KRST.

Did I miss the film toning part?

[tgtaylor]

Prints go into a tray of Sodium Thiosulfate (1 lb. box in a half gallon of water) for 4 minutes.

Wow, that's about a 25% solution if I've done the math right! I would have never guessed that a 25% solution was needed if using ST alone for SG. By contrast my Kallitypes and Salts require only a 5% and 10% solution rsp.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Utterly, utterly wasteful, Thomas. Sometimes Fred Picker did things the hard way. A 5% soln was plenty strong for even his own Brilliant brand of paper, and I've always dil the Kodak Rapid Selenium in plain water. There seems to be some mythology on this subject.

[Doremus Scudder]

Utterly, utterly wasteful, Thomas. Sometimes Fred Picker did things the hard way. A 5% soln was plenty strong for even his own Brilliant brand of paper, and I've always dil the Kodak Rapid Selenium in plain water. There seems to be some mythology on this subject.

Indeed. But AA started it all, advocating mixing the selenium toner with HCA to save a step. The only problem with that is that the HCA exhausts long before the toner (even if you regularly discard your toner, which I don't). I imagine this practice made a bit of money for Kodak; today it seems utterly irresponsible, not to mention uneconomical. For me it's: ... Fix 2, Toner, HCA, Wash. I save and replenish my toner.

Best,

Doremus

[John Layton]

I tone my prints (those I've actually chosen to tone) after they've been thoroughly washed and dried...giving a thorough water presoak prior to toning. This helps to extend the life of all solutions.