About the PMK Pyro developing process [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

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younghoon Kil

7-Mar-2018, 11:13

I am developing with PMK Pyro for a month ago.
Here is the my developing process.

● Develop: Usually 10 ~ 11 mins, continuous agitation first 30 seconds, then 1 inversion every 15 seconds.
● Stop: Tap water 2.5 mins
● Fix: TF-5 for 4mins, continuous agitation first 30 seconds, then 30 seconds agitation every 1 mins.
● After Bath: PMK Pyro developer 4 mins, continuous agitation first 30 seconds, then 2 inversion every 30 seconds.
● Rinse: Tap water 30 mins.
● Edwal LFN: 1 mins, continuous agitation.

The results of the development meet my expectations.
However, I am not sure whether this process is correct or general.
Regarding the PMK Pyro, it is difficult to find out more about the developing process even with Google search.
I would be glad if you could give me some more advice.

p.s. I am sorry that my english is poor.

Peter Lewin

7-Mar-2018, 11:23

Gordon Hutchins, the developer of PMK, changed the directions to eliminate the after bath in used PMK; he discovered that all it did was add to base fog. I have also read that a 5-minute pre-soak increases the staining effect. Since I always pre-soak anyway (most of my developing is sheet film, but I also pre-soak 120 roll film, and I don’t use PMK on 35mm) I can’t vouch for that effect.

Drew Wiley

7-Mar-2018, 11:35

I use it for all formats, and presoak even roll film in inversion tanks.

younghoon Kil

7-Mar-2018, 11:38

I heard about After Bath.
But I do not know yet if it is better or not.
Thank you.

p.s. If I do a pre-soak, can I add 20~30 seconds to the development time?
p.s.2. I use 4x5 and 120 film.
p.s.3. And I develop with an SP-445 tank.

Drew Wiley

7-Mar-2018, 11:46

Just standardize your presoak. I like 2 min.

bob carnie

7-Mar-2018, 11:47

I split the development into two distinct times with fresh.. also I stain ..

John Layton

7-Mar-2018, 16:50

have had great results with PMK and FP4...but for some reason not so much with Bergger, to which PMK gave clipped highlights when printed on VC paper. Have been using more Pyrocat lately...but want to do another run of PMK soon. Amazing results with brightly lit/specular stuff like sand, water, and snow:
175632

RJ-

7-Mar-2018, 17:52

Hi Young Hoon,

Are you making it from the powder: http://jeffreysoper.com/node/124

as a Stock A:B:Water in the ratio of 1:2:100.

The Stock B is Sodium Metaborate (alkaline) which controls the rate of the process. This is the simplest version [Stock A: Metol, Bisulphite, Pyrogallol Stock B: Sodium Metaborate]. If yours is pre-packed liquid, there isn't much you can do, other than follow the instructions and mix 1:2:100.

In powder form, Stock A composition can be varied with buffer or substituted; you can add 1% Benztriazole (I tend to do this, partly because all of my film stock is now so expired since it was all discontinued over 10 years ago); you can do many things to the developer, including division and subtraction. You can take away the Sodium Metaborate of Part B and use Potassium Hydroxide etc.

However before doing anything off the basic recipe, perhaps you could start:

1. Which film are you using
2. Which ISO have you standardised for your film to achieve 11 minutes of development.
3. How are you measuring 'the results meeting your expectations'. Have you decided which printing technique (cold cathode or VC light?) and paper yet?

You've mentioned there isn't a lot about the developing process with Google? I'm guessing, that the humans amongst us who are alive, still haven't been replaced by googlebots, and if you ask us humans directly, and not google about the specific developing process issue you wish to clarify, the googlebot will pick it up afterwards for ever:)

I tend to use PMK Pyrogallol for Kodak Technical Pan - ISO 16 in roll & 5x4" sheets using the Kodak 'cocktail' shake method (you will need a hanger for sheet film) thrusting the film vertically and rotationally in energetic shaking for 8-9 minutes (rather shorter) with a 30% surplus of developer. We write 'cocktail' to mimic the action of mixing an alcoholic drink by a bar tender, in a certain way (but this is a metaphor, and not very accurate as well). The pyrogallol content exhausts rapidly, and so fast shaking [of the film: but not of the whole tank, or you form bubbles, which cause unevenness], stops streaks, lumpy tones or drag of spent byproducts in the chemistry.

The aura green stain effect of PMK Pyro has been described here. You can improve it, choose it, deselect it, by switching composition of your Part A:B. You choose which accelerator (e.g. Potassium Hydroxide instead of Sodium Metaborate) for contrast control, and restrainer for extreme densities:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_zK-yWKa4M

I think this is a great youtube clip. Someone explains here in a few minutes, what took us humans years to work out. Google is great after all.

Going back - your original starting PMK Pyro workflow is ok. Read all the other posts with recommended changes to your basic idea. You're moving it towards consistency now.

Enjoy developing!

Kind regards,
RJ

younghoon Kil

7-Mar-2018, 22:04

Just standardize your presoak. I like 2 min.

I'm sorry I do not understand.
Does it mean I do not need to change the development time?

younghoon Kil

7-Mar-2018, 22:06

Doremus Scudder

8-Mar-2018, 03:14

If you decide to pre-soak, a slight increase in development time will not hurt. 5% should be plenty. If that turns out to consistently be too much, then go back to your previous time. Development times need to constantly be evaluated and adjusted anyway, based on the actual results in the field.

The PMK after-bath is not necessary and time consuming. Eliminate it. It does not add additional image stain and only muddies up the shadows by adding extra overall stain.

Your workflow looks fine, except I would recommend an acid stop bath. Both PMK and TF-5 work fine with an acid stop. I use either Ilfostop or Kodak Indicator Stop mixed at half the recommended strength and use it only one session. That said, if you are getting good results with a water stop, it's up to you.

With TF-5, be sure you are fixing to completion before you expose the film to light to avoid fogging. PMK (and other developers) remain in the emulsion well into the fixing stage and can be reactivated by the alkaline environment of an alkaline fixer. Switching on the white light too soon can result in fogging.

Best,

Doremus

younghoon Kil

8-Mar-2018, 04:01

I have learned more clearly about the PMK Pyro developing with your detailed explanation. Thank you.

I use either Ilfostop or Kodak Indicator Stop mixed at half the recommended strength and use it only one session.

Does this mean diluting to 1 + 38 instead of 1 + 19? And do you mean not to reuse it?
(I reused Ilfostop 2-3 times when developing with XTOL.)

Also, If I use Ilfostop, would it be appropriate in 30 seconds?

RJ-

8-Mar-2018, 06:16

I use PMK Pyro in liquid form.

-- http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?131636-Blotchy-pattern-on-4x5-negatives

I started the black and white film developing a year ago, but I could not develop it properly because of the dark slide problem in the Toyo-View film holders.

175654

Hi,

Is this image intended for demonstration of the Toyo darkslide problem?

I can see an uneven mottling pattern, however this does not fit classically with problems at the imaging stage. But I'm not seeing a Toyo darkslide problem (i.e. mechanical failure) in your image since I don't use or understand Toyo. I think you have diagnosed this DDS problem separately on your other thread - the batch from Toyo seem problematic - another problem on top of your development struggles!

To me, from the (limited) internet view, the mottling pattern appears like a film development stage where operator error. has crept in. Perhaps if you have more examples from the other 12 images using these slides, the pattern of imaging or development defect might become clearer. If your image is an example from your PMK Pyro development, it may need you to reflect on whether the mottling has happened due to an inadequate grasp of the specific agitation method needed for for PMK Pyro. Chemically, this kind of result can happen if there is localised exhaustion of the developer, forming pockets of depletion of active Pyrogallol and build up of byproducts which become visible on the negative.

The PMK Pyro is a reasonable choice for giving an expanded contrast range (i.e. highlights and shadow detail). Stepwedges and X1s are fine if you are into that kind of technological alchemy with a 19th century developer.

Stop bath issue - 30seconds in Ilfostop is fine, however your fixer may deplete faster than you wish at this brevity, or on reuse of Ilfostop. You achieve a cleaner wash during the stop cycle for times around a minute, before transfer to the fixer. If you use the fixer for anything other than PMK Pyro, you will need to be careful with cross contaminating your workflow. If you only use PMK Pyro, then this is fine, since all of your workflow is then contaminated anyway.

Perhaps I am wondering if a solid grasp of film development basics helps, before leaping into PMK Pyro. Otherwise, deficiences in the basics become superimposed on the specific PMK Pyro developer issues resulting in all kinds of frustration and repetition of new kinds of troubleshoot.

Kind regards,

RJ

younghoon Kil

8-Mar-2018, 06:52

RJ-

8-Mar-2018, 07:47

175677

This photo is another example.
All developed with XTOL.

After picking up the bad dark slides, this problem did not happen again!
I did not think this was a dark slide issue for the past year and thought it was a film development problem.
And I've wasted a lot of films in the past year.

Hi Young Hoon,

The image scan needs the complete film with the film rebate in order to decide if it is an a) imaging failure b) processing failure of c) handling and transition failures. Sorry to see you've experienced an anthology of problems, across all 3 areas. At the same time it's good to know you are supporting the small film manufacturers.

If I understand you correctly, this image is not shot on one of the faulty Toyo DDS (a). It is not PMK Pyro development related, having been processed in Xtol however is still related to your general processing technique (b). It's not possible to comment on c) due to the lack of rebate.

What I can see, are dominant clusters of reticulated silver halide material ( dark blotches) in random patterns across the complete uploaded area of the negative. The distribution has no pattern, however weights towards the right of the negative. A visible image in the background, appears faintly developed in comparison to the over-developed clusters. You can see the fine trace the skyscraper' boundary walls, veiled by the clusters, which do not interact with the image; they dominate it.

None of this description is the product of a successful development of a photographic film. It is not characteristic of Xtol either, and all I would venture to say with any clarity, is that Xtol is not the source of your problem. Then if you have dismissed Xtol, it is not because of Xtol: more likely it is due to the failure to understand and apply it effectively in the development process.
.

b) still remains problematic for you - and ceasing Xtol will not end the problems, although may bypass them by switching to a non-powder developer which does not require making up. How did you make up the Xtol from powder? How did you dissolve it and did it dissolve completely to form a uniform active developer, or did you have residue swirling around the tank? What dilution did you use? How did you calculate it? How old is it? Did you control the temperatures of the solution? Even then, a) still needs to be addressed. How well has the film been stored? How old is it. Has it suffered degradation from humidity exposure and so on.

The questions that can be asked will be more tedious than a telephone call centre. Therefore the possible answers will be just as bad. An account of what you do from start to finish, will be too exhausting. Maybe you could ask one of your photographer friends to check out your development technique to spot any process errors in processing, your own skills in checking out the processing method improves. Then imaging. Then in your handling.

Then PMK Pyro development :)

Kind regards,
RJ

younghoon Kil

8-Mar-2018, 08:13

I purchased 14 Toyo-View TOFH45 4x5 Sheet Film Holders from 2014 to 2016 at B&H.
And there are light leak problems in 12 dark slides in 6 holders.

I lit a light from the back of the dark slides to confirm the light leak problem.
I can easily see the light of a flashlight passing dark slides.
(I always shoot in a bright city.)

All the photos I posted here were taken with this bad holders(dark slides).

I have developed 12 times in the past 20 days, but the same problem no longer occurs.
These are the films taken in the remaining six normal holders.

Thank you again for your kind comments and interest.

RJ-

8-Mar-2018, 08:20

Hi Young Hoon,

The image was made from the faulty Toyo DDS then!

That's great news. Hope you can work things out with the Toyo MAC Group supervisor.

Kind regards,

RJ

younghoon Kil

8-Mar-2018, 08:26

At the same time it's good to know you are supporting the small film manufacturers. J

Yes, that's right. :)
I have already purchased 300(sheets) 4x5 films in the past three months. (Arista EDU Ultra 100, Fomapan 200 and Fomapan 400).

Hope you can work things out with the Toyo MAC Group supervisor.

They have not replied for a month and just sent an e-mail again.
I hope they will be interested.

Doremus Scudder

8-Mar-2018, 08:57

I have learned more clearly about the PMK Pyro developing with your detailed explanation. Thank you.

Does this mean diluting to 1 + 38 instead of 1 + 19? And do you mean not to reuse it?
(I reused Ilfostop 2-3 times when developing with XTOL.)

Also, If I use Ilfostop, would it be appropriate in 30 seconds?

Dilute 1+39 instead of 1+19 to get a half-strength dilution (40 parts total instead of 20) in your particular case. For other dilutions, keep the amount of stop-bath concentrate the same but double the total recommended volume to get half-strength. Times in stop bath should be minimum 30 seconds with agitation, but longer doesn't hurt anything. I like 45 - 60 seconds.

And, yes, I don't store the stop bath longer than one or two sessions. It's half-strength anyway. Citric-acid stop baths like Ilfostop grow mold slime if stored too long.

Best,

Doremus

younghoon Kil

8-Mar-2018, 09:51

Thank you again for your friendly explanation. :o