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pepeguitarra
11-Feb-2018, 22:49
Is there a place where we can buy BRAND new lenses for LR, or do we have to live buying used or faulty lenses? Also, can we buy shutters by themselves, who manufactures them? Do they only sell to the lens makers? I cannot believe a used shutter is sold for more than what a lens cost. I am glad at least someone is building brand new cameras, but what about lenses? Thanks, Pepe

Leigh
11-Feb-2018, 23:11
Is there a place where we can buy BRAND new lenses for LR...
What's "LR"?

- Leigh

Doremus Scudder
12-Feb-2018, 01:46
What's "LR"? Leigh

"R" is pretty close to "F" on the keyboard, so I'm guessing LF (especially since this is an LF forum...)

@OP,

Most LF lenses are no longer made, especially those for film cameras. Rodenstock and Schneider have limited offerings aimed at the digital market. Nikkor and Fujinon no longer make LF lenses. Mechanical shutters for LF lenses are also no longer manufactured; electronic shutters are made for some applications still. Add to that the there are now more limited resources for film holders (Toyo and Chamonix are among the few makers left), filters for black-and-white applications, etc., etc. and you see why the used market is where we turn to for many of our needs.

Best,

Doremus

photog_ed
12-Feb-2018, 04:50
Cooke Optics is still making their Triple Convertible Lens as well as a 4x5 portrait lens. Badger Graphics lists several “analog” Rodenstock lenses available by special order.

pepeguitarra
12-Feb-2018, 09:15
LR is wrong, I should have typed LF. Thanks for the answer, it is sad. I was at a local photographic store in my area looking for some used film stuff and when asked the owner if he had some 35mm film stuff, he said that everyday he is getting stuff from people moving to digital, or people who died (and their kids see this stuff as trash). Then, he pulled at least 14 Leicas valued from $15K to $25K, new collectables that people are cashing in, Thanks to that, I can get good prices sometimes. However, when asked about Large Format, he said the LF has few years left, especially 8x10. He said, he has seen the trend showing 8x10 dying during the last 20 years. He gave me hope with 4x5, he said he has seen that one on the rise, but not by much.
I am happy to see couple of young guys in England that started a small company manufacturing wooden 4x5 film cameras (The Intrepid). I just wish there would be a way to convince someone to keep the dream alive.

Pere Casals
12-Feb-2018, 09:33
I cannot believe a used shutter is sold for more than what a lens cost.

This because the Law of Supply and Demand in the used market.

In the past photographers had been upgrading their gear by replacing cells and reusing the shutter, so at the end there are more glass circulating around than shutters. The glass in excess even overruns the amount of shutters killed by mechanical failure.


Law of Supply and Demand:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Supply-and-demand.svg/240px-Supply-and-demand.svg.png

Sal Santamaura
12-Feb-2018, 09:39
Is there a place where we can buy BRAND new lenses...

Yes. Here are a few off the top of my head:


http://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Schneider
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43912-USA/Rodenstock_160704_210mm_f_5_6_Apo_Sironar_S_Lens.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/30710-USA/Linhof_000600_Wide_Angle_65mm_f_4_5.html

There are probably others. All, to the best of my knowledge, are selling new, unused lenses produced in the past.


...Also, can we buy shutters by themselves...Yes. See here:


http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals


Again, new, unused products that are no longer in production.

paulbarden
12-Feb-2018, 09:43
As was pointed out, Cooke still makes an excellent 8x10 lens. Its not cheap, but it’s a beautiful lens.

That said, I own several “period” lenses, including a Schneider Symmar-S 240mm and a Kodak Ektar 12” f6.8 and both are in excellent shape and perform beautifully. The Schneider cost me $350, and the Ektar can be had for around $500-$1000 depending on condition. There is absolutely no reason for you to avoid purchasing a lens that maybe 20-60 years old as long as it’s in reasonable condition and affordable. These lenses are excellent investments and will likely serve you well for the next 40 years.

It’s fair to say that 4x5 has always been the more popular format than 8x10 (or larger) for cost reasons, and that is no different now. I think the salesman you talked with was being especially cynical, since I know Blue Moon in Portland always has 8x10 equipment available and all the film supplies you could want, and they are thriving. 8x10 isn’t a huge part of their business, but it’s as healthy as it ever was.

Dhuiting
12-Feb-2018, 09:57
LR is wrong, I should have typed LF. Thanks for the answer, it is sad. I was at a local photographic store in my area looking for some used film stuff and when asked the owner if he had some 35mm film stuff, he said that everyday he is getting stuff from people moving to digital, or people who died (and their kids see this stuff as trash). Then, he pulled at least 14 Leicas valued from $15K to $25K, new collectables that people are cashing in, Thanks to that, I can get good prices sometimes. However, when asked about Large Format, he said the LF has few years left, especially 8x10. He said, he has seen the trend showing 8x10 dying during the last 20 years. He gave me hope with 4x5, he said he has seen that one on the rise, but not by much.
I am happy to see couple of young guys in England that started a small company manufacturing wooden 4x5 film cameras (The Intrepid). I just wish there would be a way to convince someone to keep the dream alive.

Iím a 30-something LF photographer who moved to 8x10 after experimenting with 35, then medium format, then 4x5. I know other younger folks that are doing the same. Thereís definitely a resurgence happening.

Case in point, the Intrepid camera company put out a Kickstarter for an 8x10 camera and made their goal more than 10 times over. (Goal was £18,000 and they got £220,722). If thatís not evidence that 8 x 10 is not dying, I donít know what is.

379 people ordered 8x10 cameras. Pretty cool. They started going out around the beginning of the year (still waiting for mine) and all those people are going to be looking for film, lenses, YouTube content, and hopefully joining forums like this to keep film alive.

Itís inspiring to see for sure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dan Fromm
12-Feb-2018, 10:20
This because the Law of Supply and Demand in the used market.

Growing demand (demand curve shifts outwards) or falling supply (supply curve shifts inwards)? We can't tell which without good data and statistical analysis.

I've always believed that, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider stopped making lenses for LF because of falling demand and because used lenses that were competitive with new production came to market in relatively large numbers at prices below the cost of making new ones. Production of mechanical leaf shutters died with production of LF lenses. Remember, we users weren't shutter manufacturers' customers, lens makers were.

I'm all for solidarity among Dans and would like to share Dan Huiting's belief in a resurgence of LF camera manufacturers, but I just can't. 379 buyers for a new 8x10 camera that's price competitive with used ones doesn't seem like many. Niche product, and 4x5s too, both for small niches, I fear.

A propos of supply and demand, I track offerings of a couple of obscure makes of lenses. Listing on the various eBays must be very inexpensive. How else to explain the same old lenses being offered over and over and over .... again? The lenses are there in smaller numbers than a casual observer would think. Asking prices (opening bids or BIN prices) could be too high or, equally likely, very few people want the things.

Last year I went shopping for a couple of Fujinons on eBay.com and saw the same. Decent lenses at low prices offered many times.

pepeguitarra
12-Feb-2018, 10:40
I think some people are unaware that film photography exists. Older folks are changing to the automatic AF DSLR. But the true photographer is the only one moving into the large format stuff. I am not sure how the 8x10 film production is going. I know I can find 4x5 easily. Once Millennials wake up from the hypnotic trance of the cell phone, they may realize that not all is instant gratification, and that stuff that you work harder is sometimes more satisfying.

Jim Noel
12-Feb-2018, 10:46
I received my first LF camera, a Speed Graphic, in 1938, and have had many cameras up to 7x17 in the interim. I have probably owned at least 100 lenses, but have never bought a new one even when I worked in a camera store.

Pere Casals
12-Feb-2018, 11:50
Growing demand (demand curve shifts outwards) or falling supply (supply curve shifts inwards)? We can't tell which without good data and statistical analysis.

I've always believed that, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider stopped making lenses for LF because of falling demand and because used lenses that were competitive with new production came to market in relatively large numbers at prices below the cost of making new ones. Production of mechanical leaf shutters died with production of LF lenses. Remember, we users weren't shutter manufacturers' customers, lens makers were.

I'm all for solidarity among Dans and would like to share Dan Huiting's belief in a resurgence of LF camera manufacturers, but I just can't. 379 buyers for a new 8x10 camera that's price competitive with used ones doesn't seem like many. Niche product, and 4x5s too, both for small niches, I fear.

A propos of supply and demand, I track offerings of a couple of obscure makes of lenses. Listing on the various eBays must be very inexpensive. How else to explain the same old lenses being offered over and over and over .... again? The lenses are there in smaller numbers than a casual observer would think. Asking prices (opening bids or BIN prices) could be too high or, equally likely, very few people want the things.

Last year I went shopping for a couple of Fujinons on eBay.com and saw the same. Decent lenses at low prices offered many times.

Well, perhaps there is an scarce supply of used shutters, I need two 0 size shutters but I have abandoned the intention of acquiring them.

Often we find cells alone (this is a search: https://www.ebay.es/sch/i.html?_odkw=sironar+cells&LH_PrefLoc=2&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=%28symmar%2C+sironar%29+%28cells+%2C+elements%29&_sacat=0), at cheap prices, but acquiring a suitable shutter it's a challenge...

LF commercial photography has mostly disapeared, and all that used excellent gear saturated market. Also the profile of practitioners changed, with way lower average budgets in play. What is still expensive is some kinds of collectible glass...

I've the hope that LF will recover some popularity, perhaps it had to almost disapear to make a new generation feel that are pioneering :)

IMHO in the same way that some painters and sculptors are still there also artists to come will want a direct touch with the medium. My theory is that Michelangelo would not made the Pietŗ if not having a hammer, with 3D modeling software he would have designed a crappy thing...

The film market peaked in 2003 with some 960 million rolls of film, today sells are around 20 million rolls. Well, it had to be zero rolls, marketing math failed... and it is 20 million with a 5% yearly growth.

IMHO a little share of new roll film photographers will take the call of LF, this is fropm the new LF practitioners will come, but they have to walk the trip.

jp
12-Feb-2018, 12:08
It really doesn't take much oversupply from good used equipment to totally destroy the market for new equipment when the market is small and there is no compelling reason to upgrade.

Thom Bennett
12-Feb-2018, 12:15
I recently had to have a Copal #0 shutter repaired and was told that parts exist for about another two year's worth of repairs (at the current rate of repairs). Let's say the repaired shutter performs for another five years before needing another repair. My point is that within 7 years there is the chance that none of my currents lenses will be useable because there will be no parts to repair the shutters. Hopefully, I'll get a lot of work done between now and then.

Louis Pacilla
12-Feb-2018, 12:23
I recently had to have a Copal #0 shutter repaired and was told that parts exist for about another two year's worth of repairs (at the current rate of repairs). Let's say the repaired shutter performs for another five years before needing another repair. My point is that within 7 years there is the chance that none of my currents lenses will be useable because there will be no parts to repair the shutters. Hopefully, I'll get a lot of work done between now and then.

This is simply silly stuff.

Thom Bennett
12-Feb-2018, 12:24
This is simply silly stuff.

Why do you say that Louis?

Corran
12-Feb-2018, 12:35
Millennials wake up from the hypnotic trance of the cell phone

Please don't refer to Millennials as some block group of zombie cell phone users. There's plenty of us on this very forum shooting LF (4x5, 8x10, and 8x20 myself).

I think it needs to be considered that LF cameras/lenses are not necessarily the best tool for a large percentage of the resurgent film market. The "hot" cameras for a lot of people are the Contax 645, Pentax 67, Rolleiflex, and other "spur of the moment" type cameras. And there's nothing wrong with that - not to mention that these are still big steps up in terms of performance for those coming from 35mm. And then there is of course the contingent of photographers working primarily with Holgas and other toy cameras.

I know many younger photographers who tried LF and absolutely hate the workflow and effort needed to make an image. Are they wrong? There will be plenty of curmudgeons here that think this kind of fast-paced, un-technical method of photography is anathema, but that kind of attitude is merely a reflection of preference and the types of photography one practices. Not only that, but denigrating the cell phone as a camera is also nothing more than elitism. I recognize this myself despite hating the usage of my cell phone in general.

Anyway, as for "Brand New Lenses," why? Okay, I know some have a strange fixation with using something that has never been used before, but not me. Other than my Nikon D800, I have never bought a single piece of "new" equipment. I'd rather keep some money in my pocket or buy film with the excess. Some in my family also are confounded that I refuse to buy a new car, preferring well-aged ones instead. To each his own, but in terms of LF lenses, you'll have to deal with only having used equipment available soon. As far as repairs - how many shutters need more than a clean, lubrication, and adjustment? Parts availability is a very different topic.

LabRat
12-Feb-2018, 12:52
Unlike much of what's made today, I'm still using 50 to 100+ year old gear regularly, so age is not an issue...

Keep using it regularly, and service when needed and it's off for the long haul...

Steve K

Louis Pacilla
12-Feb-2018, 13:24
Why do you say that Louis?

Hey Thom

Maybe your guy only has parts for two years but there are many folks around who do repairs on Coplas and how many parts do they have and so on. Plus the many Copals laying around that can be salvaged for parts. Our large format world is small and there is a LOAD of gear out there from the pro days to keep us going for a good while. Just my view

I have perfectly working/running Ilex/Wollensak/Compound/Compur shutters that have been out of production for decades and If needed I could/can still find the parts for repair. It is a bit harder to find some older parts but we're talking Copals here and there are MANY Copals floating around today and many have had little use. Again just my view.

Dan Fromm
12-Feb-2018, 13:29
Well, perhaps there is an scarce supply of used shutters, I need two 0 size shutters but I have abandoned the intention of acquiring them.

Papi, I think you're in the EU, could be mistaken. Wherever you are, you should be able to find used Copal Press #0 shutters at reasonable prices. You have to know what to look for and you have to be prepared for shutters than need CLAs.

eBay.co.uk now has two (2) Shackman 7000 oscilloscope cameras on offer. Each has a Copal Press #0. There's another on ebay.com, if you want to buy from the US.

If you want to buy from the US, look on ebay.com for sirchie cameras as well as for Shackman cameras. I have in hand three Copal Press #0 shutters and one Copal #0 cock-and-shoot shutter extracted from Sirchie mug shot cameras.

Mr. Galli, who almost always know what he's talking about, has told me several times that some oscilloscope cameras (not only Shackman) have Copal Press #0s. I've never met one like that, but I don't look for them often or diligently.

Never buy a mug shot, fingerprint, or oscilloscope camera for its shutter unless the listing shows the shutter clearly and you're sure the shutter is one you want. I've had reasonable luck with 'scope camera Ilex #3s, poor luck with 'scope camera Alphax #3s.

Pere Casals
12-Feb-2018, 14:20
Shackman 7000 oscilloscope cameras on offer. Each has a Copal Press #0.

Thanks for pointing that source of shutters, I heard something but was not well aware...

The ones now offered are expensive for me because shipping, I'm near Barcelona, shipping from USA sometimes it's expensive, in this case it is $40 the product, $60 the shipping, as the total amount is over 60€ (IIRC) then there are some $30 in taxes, and some $15 more for the customs' agency work, so some $145 for me, but I'll be looking for offers under total $60 that (IIRC) are not taxed.

174638

Dan Fromm
12-Feb-2018, 14:35
Papi, the UK is still in the EU. You don't have to buy from the US.

Thom Bennett
12-Feb-2018, 14:53
Hey Thom

Maybe your guy only has parts for two years but there are many folks around who do repairs on Coplas and how many parts do they have and so on. Plus the many Copals laying around that can be salvaged for parts. Our large format world is small and there is a LOAD of gear out there from the pro days to keep us going for a good while. Just my view

I have perfectly working/running Ilex/Wollensak/Compound/Compur shutters that have been out of production for decades and If needed I could/can still find the parts for repair. It is a bit harder to find some older parts but we're talking Copals here and there are MANY Copals floating around today and many have had little use. Again just my view.

I know of only two people who work on Copals professionally and the primary one I use told me this. If anyone has parts, they would.

I thought the same thing (that there are lots of Copals laying around that can be salvaged) so maybe the folks who do repairs will do them if we send them a Copal for parts.

I used to worry about having good paper to print on but that issue is solved by making my own (if it comes to that). But I can't make a shutter! At the very least I could turn all my LF gear into pinholes. Or use the old hat trick. There are work-arounds.

Anyway, I hope you are right and that we have plenty of time before the sky completely falls. :)

Pere Casals
12-Feb-2018, 15:00
Papi, the UK is still in the EU. You don't have to buy from the US.

Yes, UK is still straight, but the one in the UK is not as cheap, it is $97 + $11 shipping, total $108,

at that price it would be a better choice a Symmar 80, 100 or 135 to canibalize the shutter...

174641

LabRat
12-Feb-2018, 15:11
Most always, replacement parts are not needed, unless unit is dropped, badly torqued, abused, soaked, corroded, buried in flood/mud/sand, shot with a gun, run over, crushed under rockslide, or if jammed and action is forced... If these are avoided (and a CLA once in a while), parts will not be needed...

Worry about it IF there is an issue...

Shoot, and forget about it (but don't forget a CLA a decade or so)...

Steve K

faberryman
12-Feb-2018, 15:12
Older folks are changing to the automatic AF DSLR. But the true photographer is the only one moving into the large format stuff.
True photographers?

Dan Fromm
12-Feb-2018, 15:32
Yes, UK is still straight, but the one in the UK is not as cheap, it is $97 + $11 shipping, total $108,

at that price it would be a better choice a Symmar 80, 100 or 135 to canibalize the shutter...



Papi, I don't know where you looked. I just looked again and found https://web.archive.org/web/20180212223008/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLAROID-SHACKMAN-7000-CAMERA-HOOD-w-LENS/401491004193 First hit.

Where do you find those Symmars? I just took quick looks on ebay.com and ebay.co.uk and couldn't find any that inexpensive.

Leigh
12-Feb-2018, 15:54
I think the concern about shutters working into the next decades is overblown.

I've been fixing shutters for about 50 years.
Very few of them required "parts".
Usually just a good CLA with proper lube and they work fine.

And the supply of repair parts is grossly under-estimated.
I have a large stock of parts for Hasselblad lenses and Compur shutters.

None of the doom-sayers ever inventoried my stock.
That's likely true for many many other service guys.

- Leigh

pepeguitarra
12-Feb-2018, 16:10
Leigh,
How can I get in contact with you? I have several lenses and all shutters are off. Maybe you can do that CLA to them. Thanks, Pepe.

Pere Casals
13-Feb-2018, 01:17
Papi, I don't know where you looked. I just looked again and found https://web.archive.org/web/20180212223008/https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLAROID-SHACKMAN-7000-CAMERA-HOOD-w-LENS/401491004193 First hit. Where do you find those Symmars? I just took quick looks on ebay.com and ebay.co.uk and couldn't find any that inexpensive.

Dan, it is just the same product, but in your case it calculates a $15 shipping, but in my case it calculates a $59 shipping, based in user location and seller shipping policy.


The symmar screenshot it was with "Sold listings" checked, so it is not about present offers, but about real auction results (lower price first), so this a guide for the price one may obtain at auction or making an offer to the seller.

This is the search of the screenshot: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_nkw=symmar+%2880%2C+100%2C+135%29&_sop=15

A search for (sold) xenars with size 0: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=xenar+%28100%2C+1o5%29&_sop=15&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xxenar+%28100%2C+105%29.TRS0&_nkw=xenar+%28100%2C+105%29&_sacat=0

Huub
13-Feb-2018, 03:47
You could have a look at the german version of the well known auction site. The german word for shutter is 'verschluss' and prices start from € 50,- for a Polaroid Press.

Pere Casals
13-Feb-2018, 04:14
You could have a look at the german version of the well known auction site. The german word for shutter is 'verschluss' and prices start from € 50,- for a Polaroid Press.

Thanks

Ivan J. Eberle
15-Feb-2018, 15:51
It's not profitable to manufacture and sell them new, would be the short answer.
If you could still find a new, once-common, 4x5" top-of-the-line lens for something approaching the list price, it will likely be considerably more $1500 USD. Often the exact same lenses, typically gently used and with an accurate shutter, can be purchased on eBay for about 1/10th as much. These were the professional coin-of-the-realm for 50 years; short of dropping or dunking them they're rugged and hard to wear out. LF film gear was dumped en masse by pros because Polaroids and final film costs became prohibitive in the digital era, impossible to recoup by billing clients for them, starting in the 1990's. Today there is such an overabundance of LF lenses that hobbyists and artists will be using the existing rolling stock for the next 50 years without exhausting the supply of cheap and repairable ones.