PDA

View Full Version : High contrast films and low contrast lenses: Good?



Tin Can
2-Feb-2018, 09:54
J. Lane Dry Plates just said his plates are 'high contrast'. Most say X-Ray and older film are also high contrast.

Does using an older, uncoated lens have softer contrast performance on the above high contrast emulsions?

And if this is true, perhaps damaged glass may also soften HC films. Scratches, fungus, etc both front and rear.

I mean sharp glass not purpose built SF.

No, I haven't tried it yet. Thoughts?

jp
2-Feb-2018, 09:58
I doubt it'd help. High contrast means there is less difference in the ends of the histogram near near-black and near-white. A needlessly low contrast lens would simply butcher those parts of the histogram. I'd try for softer light or weaker developer.

EdSawyer
2-Feb-2018, 10:27
Agreed. There are no cases where a low-contrast lens is a good thing, really. low contrast = low resolution. No one deliberately designs a lens for low contrast.

Drew Wiley
2-Feb-2018, 11:36
Depends. I often admire a degree of flare in 19th C prints from blue-sensitive film.

LabRat
2-Feb-2018, 11:54
I find that today's films can be quite contrasty, modern LF lenses very contrasty, cold tone printing papers contrasty, film development/exposure can be contrasty, filter use contrasty, daytime sunlight light quality can be contrasty, images with good acutance hard, so everything is leaning towards contrasty results... I realize that a slightly harder image can have a greater apparent sharpness, but I'm wondering at what expense???

We also have room to explore the entire scale of the materials, not just the ends...

If we are getting mushy results, we are doing something wrong, but trying to "flamethrow" everything with contrast (at expense of finding nicely rendered mid-tones) is too much...

To me, older optics can have a smoother tonal transition and can tame some films that are a little too depressed in the shadow region (but hopefully the design + glass do not "bloom" the highlights so much that there is a "compression" in the higher tonal regions)...

Before ortho, blue sensitive materials were contrasty, and the lenses of the day tamed them...

It's our choice to the type of tonality that works with the subject matter, but I like to listen to what the subject is telling me about how it should be rendered... ;-)

Steve K

Corran
2-Feb-2018, 13:14
Randy, if you've got any LF Zeiss Tessars lying around, try them. I've always found the Tessars to have lifted shadows. It's not that they are overtly low-contrast, it just seems like they throw some flare into the shadows - similar to pre-flashing the film overall.

I don't know what it is about certain lenses, designs, or whatever. My APO Lanthars also seem to have a bit more shadow detail, despite modern glass and coatings.

Overtly low-contrast lenses, in my experience, seem to be kinda grey and blah all around, as opposed to just having enhanced shadows. I think there may be some fine distinction here between global contrast and what is commonly referred to as "micro-contrast."

I haven't tried my Tessars on the JL plates, but you've prompted me to give it a go next time.

Drew Wiley
2-Feb-2018, 13:44
Ditto. When I want to work in that mode, I reach for a Zeiss tessar and place a deep blue filter on it. It's very sharp with excellent gradation, but gives a different look.

Jac@stafford.net
2-Feb-2018, 13:53
Ditto. When I want to work in that mode, I reach for a Zeiss tessar and place a deep blue filter on it.

That was something taught to me by a former Vietnam combat photographer - a mild blue filter under the triple canopy jungle pleased the processing folks.

LabRat
2-Feb-2018, 14:03
That was something taught to me by a former Vietnam combat photographer - a mild blue filter under the triple canopy jungle pleased the processing folks.

Green is good for this too with pan films...

Bringing out the blue where only skylight penetrates works, but at the expense of reds, yellows etc (where they peak in direct sunlight)...

Steve K

Tin Can
2-Feb-2018, 14:11
Bryan, no Zeiss Tessars, but some Jena.

I like seeing your results and tech explanations.

Don't forget I'm also making a cargo trailer RV, so I have too many projects...

The Darkroom is also lagging. I develop in a dry closet.

Jac@stafford.net
2-Feb-2018, 14:27
Green is good for this too with pan films...

Bringing out the blue where only skylight penetrates works, but at the expense of reds, yellows etc (where they peak in direct sunlight)...

Steve K

Green filters got me into trouble once, and it was entirely my fault. I was trying to raise the luminosity in a scene that included fir trees. Silly me - they were blue, not green! My dim brain saw green that was not there. Humblers like that make us stronger ... or me feeling more stupid. :)

Drew Wiley
2-Feb-2018, 14:37
I use very deep blue filtration to slow the exp way down, suitable for lens cap exp. I haven't mounted it in a shutter yet.

LabRat
2-Feb-2018, 17:10
Green filters got me into trouble once, and it was entirely my fault. I was trying to raise the luminosity in a scene that included fir trees. Silly me - they were blue, not green! My dim brain saw green that was not there. Humblers like that make us stronger ... or me feeling more stupid. :)

Under a green leaf canopy, the sun reflects off the green leaves filtering through... Green filter picks this up...

Blue trees!?!!! Was that in "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" land??? :-)

Steve K

Tin Can
2-Feb-2018, 17:13
Under a green leaf canopy, the sun reflects off the green leaves filtering through... Green filter picks this up...

Blue trees!?!!! Was that in "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" land??? :-)

Steve K

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/0657/products/Picea-pungens-Thume.jpg?v%3D1488075994&imgrefurl=https://www.mailordertrees.co.uk/products/picea-pungens-thume-colorado-spruce-thume&h=1000&w=1000&tbnid=dsMt7--d7W5Y3M:&tbnh=186&tbnw=186&usg=__t1tzyr9WAowbj5G5GTfgMBhzf5Y%3D&vet=10ahUKEwj6p4nxuojZAhVi_IMKHShTD08Q_B0IwgEwEw..i&docid=qV8rbR9rs6Ev-M&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6p4nxuojZAhVi_IMKHShTD08Q_B0IwgEwEw

LabRat
2-Feb-2018, 17:15
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/0657/products/Picea-pungens-Thume.jpg?v%3D1488075994&imgrefurl=https://www.mailordertrees.co.uk/products/picea-pungens-thume-colorado-spruce-thume&h=1000&w=1000&tbnid=dsMt7--d7W5Y3M:&tbnh=186&tbnw=186&usg=__t1tzyr9WAowbj5G5GTfgMBhzf5Y%3D&vet=10ahUKEwj6p4nxuojZAhVi_IMKHShTD08Q_B0IwgEwEw..i&docid=qV8rbR9rs6Ev-M&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6p4nxuojZAhVi_IMKHShTD08Q_B0IwgEwEw

OK, but more like cyan... ;-)

SK

Jac@stafford.net
2-Feb-2018, 19:53
[...]
Blue trees!?!!! Was that in "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" land??? :-)

I wish! It was a forest of bluish pines! (Funny, but they didn't look bluish!)

-- that quote from Yellow Submarine's Pepperland. (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/beatles_the_yellow_submarine/quotes/)

Drew Wiley
2-Feb-2018, 20:14
Most foliage, including conifers, reflects a lot of orange light. Deciduous leaves turn yellow, orange, or even red when the chlorophyll green is gone in Fall. But those underlying warm colors are there all along too. A true tricolor green like a 58, or tricolor blue like 47B removes all the orange. But to deepen perceived green in foliage, you really need deep red or deep blue. Fun stuff!

Peter Gomena
3-Feb-2018, 10:24
Yes! I see a lot of red-yellow cast in Douglas fir. I also found out, the hard way, that a strong green filter can make green foliage look sort of milky. I found out, also the hard way, that an orange filter separates clouds wonderfully, but foliage and ocean water can go much too dark. Experimentation, successful or failed, is a good learning tool.

LabRat
3-Feb-2018, 14:08
Yes, any filter can be a two-edged sword (working for and against you)... Remember that your eye and film spectral sensitivity are different animals, then add a filter without thinking, and surprise, even further away than you expected...

Yea Peter, green can be funny because many B/W films have (at least) a little peak in green, light can be rich in green (even in overcast), and we expect green stuff (like leaves) to be about middle tones, so if it gets inflated too much, we are surprised!!!

But green is an interesting filter as when I view the moon on my telescope with a green "lunar" filter, visually I see that it has a darkening AND lightening effect, such as slightly darkening the limb of the moon giving a little more "edge" to the falling off detail but also lightens bright stuff like the lines of ejecta from the crater Tycho, so produces contrast in both directions... With film, it can also lighten highlights too, under different light conditions...

A big plus is with our lenses that were made during the "ortho" period, that for lenses, the color correction was about centered for the green sensitivity of those films then and were corrected well, so behave well with green filters, and might be the "sweet spot" for these...

But I have been backing away from using filters for urban use, as here in the LA basin, the quality of light/brightness has changed quite a bit over the last decade or so, and (crazy as it sounds) the atmosphere photographs with a different "signature" effect, so as a subtle element, I allow the slight urban haze to "document" itself as a changing element (that will probably change again in another decade or two), so I let the skies do what they do now... (Photographing skies choked black with deep reds + pola combinations are so out for me now...)

But if you are using filters to help improve acutance, you can also do that with developers/development, and might not add another (undesirable) element to pop up somewhere else...

Steve K

ic-racer
3-Feb-2018, 14:08
The density that 'flare' adds to your shadow area did not come from the shadows of the scene you are trying to photograph. I came from the highlights. Theoretically it is back-assward and the flare is trying to remove information from your focused image, but sometimes it works. Not everything has to have a perfect tone reproduction curve.